Ethersync

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0012033

30FAIL = 30% of your one rep maximum which translates to 24+ reps according to the doctor that did the study.


/

CYF

interesting study

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Black Ops

Set the weight so that you do 24+ reps and then you can not lift another? That would be FAIL?

Do you increase the weight per set, or the reps?

Confusing numbers.

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Amputate Your Head

You just figured this out? I've known this since the 8th grade.

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dyna mo

i wish that article was written in english.

i get the conclusion but it's counter to pretty much every conclusion about muscle-building i've ever read.

dyna mo

wow, fast reps too.

1s up 1 s down.

Ethersync

Yeah, that is why I posted it.

Trend

There are so many flaws in this study it's frightening.

Ethersync

For example...?

dyna mo

ahh, if i am deciphering the jargon correctly i think the testing methodology was flawed, the 2 groups (30fail and 90fail) did not lift the same volume of weight. the 30fail group lifted significantly more weight.

dyna mo

yup, the 30fail group did 50% more work than the 90fail group (1073kg vs 710kg)

that's the reason. not a fair comparison.

Ethersync

Interesting. You should email this guy and tell him that and see what he says.

Stuart Phillips, PhD
[email protected]
http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/kines...0Phillips.html

SomeCreep

I've always used semi-light weights, high reps, and correct form when I exercise. I do so mainly to avoid injuries. It always makes me chuckle when I see guys at the gym lifting 5000 lbs, doing like 5 reps, and using completely incorrect form. That type of exercise leads to injuries, aching joints, and bulkiness without definition.

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BJ

oh, hes canadian, that explains it.

dyna mo

nah, my math is prolly wrong!

james_clickmemedia

that study goes against everything I have ever heard.

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dyna mo

here's another interesting article on this subject i had bookmarked a while back-

http://www.simplyshredded.com/rep-ra...al-growth.html

GatorB

I've known about this for about 25 years now. Go look at body builders. Typically they are not as strong as say football players who dispite being able to lift more weight look smaller than your average body builder. Using heavier weights but fewer reps will let you build more strength faster. Depends on what your main goal is, looks or strength?

dyna mo

from everything i've researched on the topic, the biggest bodybuilders are the strongest bodybuilders.

tony286

Actually when you look at the guys in the drug free days were pretty big. They were all almost power lifters, in fact the bodybuilding contests included a lifting portion of the contest.
Gregg Valentino in a diner EXPELLING THE MYTHS
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EvitFh8A0zI
I knew Gregg in NY, he is a good guy and he makes alot of sense.

Translation

Post a pic of your physique.

tony286

here are two good reads from bodybuilding.net
Here are some of the primary reasons most trainees don’t grow:

This post made by Iron Addict .

1. You overtrain and under eat. These are listed as the main primary reason because they go hand in hand and BOTH must be balanced or you can forget growth. The most perfect training regimen will fail miserably if diet is not there to support it. And conversely, the most perfect diet will be wasted if the trainee is doing more workload than they can recover from—most do WAY too much!

2. The training workload is not varied. Doing the exact same lift the same way stops being productive for most trainees within 3-6 weeks. Once the body has adapted to the loading it must be changed if you are to continue to force the body to adapt.

3. Too much focus on isolation exercises, not enough compound work. You can do all the “small” lifts until you are blue in the face, but until you are moving big poundage’s in the big lifts you will remain small. Which brings up point #4.

4. You MUST squat and deadlift if you are going to reach your bodies growth potential. Think it through. Doing squats or deads activates 70-85% of the bodies overall musculature in one move. Doing a set of curls maybe 3-5%. Which sends a big signal that the body better get better at synthesizing protein and better at handling the need to grow as a unit? You will NEVER reach your potential without doing the squats and deads.

5. You constantly fluctuate between lifts that have bad carry-over. Here is an example:

I have seen many times, and one I have done myself. The trainee burns out on benching and decides to do Hammer Strength Benches for a change. He makes the switch and is jazzed. His Hammer press is going up every week and he is stoked. After a time he has added 50 lbs to his Hammer bench and decides to go back and hit the bench, only to find it’s up a whole 10 lbs!!!!!

That doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with Hammer Benches. It just means that the lifts are dissimilar enough that an increase in one may not necessarily help increase the lift on another. Use of stabilizers and inter and intra-muscular coordination are two primary reasons, along with neural recruitment pattern gains that don’t apply well to the other lift.

6. You don’t know when to de-load/cruise :cool: , or take time off. NO ONES body takes a constant pounding of hard training without periods of active or full rest recovery. Until you learn how and when to don this your training will never be optimal

7. Your micro-nutrient support SUCKS! I can’t count the number of guys I have seen trying to build great physiques taking a “one a day” vitamin and thinking they have it covered. If you want great things out of your body, you need to put great fuel in it.

8. You train with the intensity of a arthritic old lady. Nuff said.

9. You have no clearly defined goals. Most people just “lift to get bigger”, and while this is a fine goal, not having and strength related goals will kill your progress in the long run. Your primary goal should be getting stronger on the big lifts on a CONSTANT basis. Setting short and long-term strength goals and achieving them is what equals a big strong trainee in the long run.

10. You are inconsistent. Getting excited about your training and killing yourself in the gym only to burn out and few weeks later and miss a bunch of sessions ends up being 1 step forward, 3/4 steps backward for many trainees. Getting and staying consistent and racking up sustainable gains over the long-term is what it’s about.

tony286

Might as well throw in a quote from AnimalMass since it's completely relevant to the above post..Heavy compounds, frequency, ect..

This post was written by BY Matt Reynolds

Virtually everything you’ve ever read from a bodybuilding magazine is heresy and should be regarded as not worth the paper it was printed on. The programs written by the so called “superstars” of the bodybuilding world were actually ghost written by some guy in a cubicle who doesn’t know a thing about proper training, programming, exercise phys, or periodization. If, by chance the program was actually written by the “superstar” you can rest easy as long as you are one of the most genetically gifted people in history AND you are on such a ridiculous amount of drugs that you have to tan to hide the yellowing of your skin due to liver failure.

The fact is that big, strong guys are a dime a dozen, and many of them get that way in spite of their training knowledge than because of it.

I know what I’m talking about in the world of training not because I’m the biggest or the strongest (although, at 270lbs and an 800 squat, 600 bench, and 700 deadlift I can hold my own), and not because I know the most about exercise phys (though I can hold my own there too), but because I have trained with and become friends with best. I have trained at Westside Barbell Club, with the Metal Militia, talk on a continual basis with the best strength coaches in the nation and world-wide, and the training methods I prescribe have been tested in the gym on literally hundreds and hundreds of regular, everyday athletes and shown to work. Period.

So here’s what I can stand before you today and say with great conviction what I know to be true about training:

1) I believe in general that the majority of people don’t work hard enough. If there’s one thing we can learn from the old Eastern Bloc countries, it’s that they worked harder than us, and that primarily, is why they always beat us in the Olympics. Work hard in the gym (even if your program sucks) and you will be rewarded.

2) I also believe that most people don’t put near enough emphasis on lower body and core work. The key to getting big is full squats and deadlifts. If you are looking at your routine and you see that you are training upper body 3 or 4 days per week and lower body once, you have a serious problem. The majority of athletes should live and die in the squat rack.

3) And for that matter, EVERYONE’S program should be centered around these exercises: Full Squat, Deadlifts (or cleans or both), heavy barbell rows, bench press, and Standing Barbell Military/Push Presses. Add pull ups, barbell curls, dips, heavy abdominal work, and some core work (back extensions, reverse hypers, or glute hams) and that should make up 95-100% of the total number of exercises you do. The most effective training is simple and hard.

4) Training a bodypart once per week (and one bodypart per day) is one of the worst ways to train. It will create a rut in your training that you can’t dig out of.

Training a bodypart twice per week has always been shown to be superior to once per week training of a muscle. The problem is with the influx of "Weider Principles" and other bodybuilding trash that's posted in the magazines, the masses have been stuck in the one-bodypart-per-day-per-week rut for years.

No strength athletes train a bodypart once per week. Most olympic lifters, powerlifters, and strongman train their backs at least four times per week, and last time I checked, they weren't lacking in back width.

The simple fact is that training using an upper/lower split or a push/pull split or 3 full body days will provide double or triple the training stimulus than training a muscle once per week and thus, if done correctly will lead to much, much greater growth and strength gains.

:eek: 5) Training to near muscular failure has shown to induce identical hypertrophy gains than training to all out muscular failure. The reason you guys can’t train a muscle more than once per week is because you are destroying it when you do train it. Learn to hit or miss that last rep and then call it done. Don’t do ridiculous amounts of forced reps, negatives, etc. until you literally can’t move the muscle. Take it to near failure and then your muscles will recover enough so that you can train them again in 3-4 days.

Understand that there is a huge difference in training to near failure and not training hard. I would never advocate to not train hard. Actually, quite the opposite – try to squat for 5 sets of 5 reps using only 10lbs less than your five rep max. That’s absolutely brutal. But when you get done, don’t go to the leg press machine and keep pounding out sets and stripping off weight until you literal can’t do a single leg press with only the sled. That’s absurd, and you can’t recover from it in 3 days.

6) Squat at least below parallel every time. Are you kidding me? I can’t believe some people are still quarter squatting and saying that riding a squat all the way to the ground is bad for your knees. Learn the facts. Stopping at or above parallel puts much more strain on your knees than going ass to grass. Plus going all the way down in an Olympic style back squat will put more mass on you than any other exercise. Period. :cool:

7) Isolation exercises are absolute crap. 90% of your routine should be made up of full squats, deadlifts or cleans, bench press, standing overhead press, heavy barbell rows, pull-ups, dips, and core work (abs, glute ham raises, back extensions, reverse hypers). Isolation exercises and machines are the worst thing that ever happened to the weight training world.

8) Quit using pyramid rep schemes like 10,8,6,4,2 – Instead, your time would be better served doing boring (but effective) gut busting sets of 5x5 or 4x8-10 using the SAME WEIGHT for each set. They WILL produce better results than the pyramid scheme. BTW, check your ego at the door when you do these.

9) I’ll quote my good friend, Glenn Pendlay (the best S&C coach in the nation) for the next one:

"Most athletes do too many exercises. Many times they look over other peoples programs like they are at a buffet. They pick a little of this and a little of that from a variety of programs, and end up with something useless. People think you have to train each muscle with a different specific exercise. Many guys in college athletics would do better if they would just randomly slash off half of what they are doing, and then work twice as hard on the half that is left."


10) Another of my favorites from Glenn:

"im so sick and tired of hearing people who just started training who say they cant gain weight. jeez ive heard this crap so often. every day it seems i have some stupid kid ask me about how to gain weight... in resturants, at the grocery store, yo uname it. for some reason there seems to be a sign on my back or something. usually i know its worthless to talk to them, sometimes i actually waste my time. talked to a kid at the golden corral a couple of days ago. took almost an hour when i should have been enjoying my all you can eat steak night... 3 days later i see him in the gym when i just happened to go in to talk to a friend who i knew was there... kid was there doing preacher curls. said hi to me, then said well i talked to my friend about what you said and he said he tried it once and overtrained so i decided to do this thing i read about... on the other hand about 6 months ago i talked to this 6' tall, 150lb kid who wanted to know about getting stronger. kid had done well in judo, won some titles, also after that had done cycling, turned pro then quit a year later, quite a good road racer. he actually did what i told him i guess, about 3 months after i saw him the first time i saw hiim again, he weighed about 185... he wanted to try olympic weightlifting so i let him train with the team i coach. now hes weighing 204 and clean and jerking about 300lbs, 54lbs gained in 6 months. no drugs. olympic squat from 175lbs to 385lbs, front squat from 150lbs to 330lbs. hell be a good lifter, has a good work ethic. needs to be 240 and fairly lean, will compete eventually in the 231 pound class. will take about another 12-15 months i suppose. why is a kid like this the exception and not the rule? why will kids do the same old thing for years in the abscense of results, and not try anything new? what the hell is wrong with people. there is a gym in town, i know the owner so i go and talk to him sometimes, there are all these kids in there, skinny little ****s, doing curls. they never progress, you see the same faces one year to the next, same bodies too."

tony286

11) Ultra slow reps or TUT is, for the most part completely worthless. Will it work? Yes. But the total amount of work that one can complete is much lower when utilizing slow reps. Just go natural. Don’t try to be super fast, and bouncy, and don’t try to go ultra slow. Just do it naturally and controlled.

12) “The burn”, “the pump” and “the feel” have nothing to do with the effectiveness of an exercise. Yes, even I have been caught on upper body days looking at myself in the mirror when I’m all blown up, but that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the last exercise. You do hammer strength bench presses and flyes for sets of 20 and I’ll do heavy barbell bench presses and deep dips. One of us will “feel the pump” more and the other one will grow.

13) Likewise, delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) also gives no clue as to the effectiveness of a workout. It just means A) you have a ton of microtrauma in a muscle or a lot of lactic acid/ waste products. Congratulations.

14) “Core stability training” is not done on a swiss ball or a stability board. It’s done by pulling heavy deadlifts, standing overhead presses, full squats, heavy barbell rows, heavy farmer’s walks, Atlas stones, tire flipping, reverse hypers, heavy back extensions, glute ham raises, and heavy abdominal work.

15) A good gym has nothing to do with how nice the machines are or if they have a pool or tanning beds or even if it’s air conditioned. A good gym smells like a mix of body odor and liniment and supplies their members with a big box of chalk.


Kelly Baggett, one of the best strength coaches his take as well on how to get bigger

This is not to attack anyone but I'd be willing to bet a lot more natural muscle has been built using the recommnedations of Matt and Glenn over the years then all the complicated bodybuilding schemes out there. The problem with bodybuilders is they try to overcomplicate everything and lose site of the big picture.....that's making strength gains in the gym on basic movements along with scale weight increases on a week to week basis. Now you can complicate that as much as you want but those are the only 2 things it takes to get big. It doesn't take any sort've fancy specialized training routines and special diets. If more people would spend more time in dark stinky ass gyms worrying about putting weight on the very basic movements and spend more time eating in high volume (note the golden corral reference) with an emphasis on gaining scale weight then a lot more muscle would be built.

For every bodybuilder who has success building a physique naturally I'll show you at least 20 who don't get jack **** in the way of results because they sit around with their thumb up their butt worrying about this and worrying about that and basing everything off of their "pump"...worrying about the "feel" of this exercise and trying to trash the muscle every workout without any regards to periodization and failign to realize that if they would've just strived to put 50 lbs on their squat and 15 lbs on the scale their problems would be taken care of......They go starving themselves to death on boiled chicken and broccoli while spending $300 per month in supplements thinking they can get "bigger" and "smaller" at the same time spending 5 years wasting time not gaining 10 lbs of scale weight all while looking at strength athletes with their nose up in the air when what they don't realize is that fat powerlifter they like to make fun of has actually put on 50 lbs of muscle in the last year and he could spend 3 months stripping that fat off and hand you your ass and balls in a bodybuilding contest simply because he trained very simple, focused on strength gains and most importnatly wasn't afraid to sit down at the dinner table and do some serious eating.

Give me 2 twin brothers one who hangs around with and reads bodybuilding related info for a year and another who hangs around with and trains at a powerlifting gym both without steroids and after that year is over let's see which one builds more muscle. Nine times out of 10 I'll take the powerlifter.

Having said that a strength athletes routine may not be 100% optimal for a bodybuilder but there are a lot of things people could learn from strength trainers.

dyna mo

did you know him before or after his arm exploded? he does make some salient points in that vid you posted.

tony286

I knew him in the eighties when he just looked just like a bodybuilder not a freak. We both worked out at Bob Baffs gym in NY.They show some of the early pictures of him in the clip.He was one strong guy and extremely funny. I wrote him on facebook to congratulate him on his book deal and he remembered me after all those years. He can be harsh but a good guy.

dyna mo

right on. i just finished reading those quotes you posted, good info and i learned from reading them.

The Demon

This study is absolutely retarded and completely contradicts the art of weight lifting today. I think ill keep lifting heavy and laugh at those who buy into the low weight high reps myth. Not to mention most of you don't understand that 80% of body transformation is done in the kitchen.

Peter Romero

This is total bullshit for so many reasons:

1. If I wanna fight and throw around a 200 pound guy (or bigger) I should practice manhandling a poodle for 24 reps X 3reps? I don't think so.

2. Who does just 1 set of ANYTHING? You're just asking for every sort of injury here doing stupid shit like this. Injured = no strength gain.

3. Why lift weights then? Just do the dishes for 18 hours a day - you'll be buff as shit right?

4. Your body responds to stress by rehabilitating muscle used to make stronger and more efficient. Less stress = less muscle building. Period.

5. Bottom line is, you should do alot of diferent things for maximum gains: Endurance, conditioning, and maximum weight. In aerobic work: speed, strength, and endurance. You should vary your routines, exercises and weight to always "shock" your body into learning something new and not getting stuck on plateaus - hence no gains, growth or purpose in doing the workout.

Here's a typical Upper Body Push (Chest shoulder triceps) workout rotation to illustrate my points:

Chest:
Flat Bench Press (2 seconds up, 4 down) strict with no swinging, momentum or help - upper arm going no steeper that paralell to the floor.
20 X 135lbs - 2 minute rest
12 X 185lbs - 3 min rest
8 X 225lbs - 5 min rest
6 X 275lbs - 7-8 min rest
4 X 315lbs - 7-10 min rest
1 X 365lbs (Peak) pull off weights, 30 second rest
2 X 315lbs pull off weights, no rest
6 X 225lbs pull off weights, no rest
12-16 X 135lbs as many reps as possible to absolute exhaustion.

Incline press with dumbells and similar pyramid 6-8 sets with medium heavy weights depending on how deep you went on previous exercise.

Decline flys with cables with similar pyramid 6-8 sets medium heavy weights.

Shoulders:
Military press (straight bar) 6-8 sets (12-2 reps up pyramid, then down) medium to heavy depending upon how deep gone on chest.

Dumbell Military press 12-20 reps pyramid up & down to exhaustion.

Shoulders & Triceps:
Dips 5 X 20-25 reps with varying types of exercise.

Cable tricep extensions with hands up, down, on rope or whatever. 2-6 reps for 6-8 sets.

You should only do the above 1X per week with the other Chest, shoulder, tri push routine @ 60-85% of that, and maybe a 3rd workout an endurance routine with a curcuit of mega-reps, push-ups, dips and cross-training.

This routine I have been doing for 25 years and I always started @ 135lbs on my first set with the weight increasing inside the pyramid. Does this mean I was stronger when I started? No. It means the more weight I lifted, the stronger I got. Anything over 20 reps is just a waste unless you are recovering from an injury or doing compound sets or super-sets which are 2-3 diferent execises in one set without stopping. If you only became exhausted after 23 reps of multiple sets you would never peak and never grow. Just my

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The Demon

Justification for this study isn't needed since its simply retarded. I should print this out so I can have a good laugh with my trainer.

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Peter Romero

To Tony 299 - thanks for reprinting the advice from Matt Reynolds & Glenn Pendlay.

Although I doubt if ANYONE got to lifting HEAVY weights from NOT pyramiding to a point. I.E.: Warm-up, medium, then heavy. But all his other advice was right the fuck on. I always knew squats & deadlifts were key to building mass, but he defined it like no other.

The Golden Coral... I used to love that place! But then again, that's how I got HUGE!!! No more all you can eat buffets for me.

Less talk, more action. Periodization and altering routines rather than getting stuck in a rut. I didn't mention 2 other things I did to get to my goals: 1. changing absolutely EVERYTHING up every time I reach a peak (or plateau) which is roughly every 30 and 90 days. And 2. I do 2 to 6 hours a day of aerobic exercise 4 days a week (or more) with 1 active rest day and 1 total day off everything. I do this because it works - period. But, I will try the 5 X 5 & 4 X 8-10 workorts after I plateau. Anyways, thanks for all that.

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dyna mo

yeah, i will be doing a 5x5 on my next mass cycle as well.

Lycanthrope

Another useless single exercise study with no mention of the catabolism that would occur due to increased cortisol release during unnecessarily long training sessions.

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Trend

The key factor that has been ignored in this study is the difference between muscle fiber types... there are four however the three that are most often discussed are:

Type 1 ( slow twitch ) These fibers are aerobic meaning they use oxygen to generate ATP. Athletes who have a predominance of these fiber types do well in sports such as long distance running and activities that require endurance. These muscle fibers respond well to lower weight, higher repetition weight training.

Type IIa : (fast twitch, fatigue resistant ) These are aerobic fibers which can split ATP at a very rapid rate yet fatigue much more quickly than Type 1 fibers. Athletes who have a predominance of these fiber types do well in sports such as middle distance running, olympic swimming etc. These muscle fibers respond well to both low weight / high rep training as well as high weight / low rep training.

TypeIIb ( fast twitch fatigue-able ) These are Anaerobic muscle fibers that are are characterized by an absence of myoglobin and a reliance on glycolytic enzymes. These fibers are perfect for short bursts of speed and power and use both oxidative metabolism and anaerobic metabolism ( the burning of carbohydrates primarily ) to generate ATP. Athletes who have a predominance of these fiber types do well in sports such as powerlifting, short distance track, football linebackers, lineman etc. These muscle fibers respond well to high weight / low rep training.

Every person has all of the muscle fiber types but we each have them in varying percentages. And these percentages can vary widely between individuals.

So if you are someone with predominantly Type I muscle fibers .. low weight / high rep will serve you well .. in general.

But

If you are predominantly Type II a low weight / high rep routine is counter productive if your goal is to gain mass.


Sorry for the geek speak on the subject.. but this is what I did my dissertation on. Fiber typing and the Krebs Cycle.... and people wonder why I jumped into adult

dyna mo

i would be interested in reading more about folks who have gained muscle mass with high rep programs, do you have any more info on that?

thx in advance!

a

Pornwolf

Drug free days? When was that, 1930?

from the 60's on they were juicing.

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Raf1

whenever I get back into training (it only lasts for a year or two, lol), I always do what's best for my body. I do three sets of 10 or so reps, with 40-60 second rests in between. No more than 40 minutes for one training session. That's when I get the best results.

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Trend

Hey dyna mo .. can I ask... do you know what your composition of fiber types are? Meaning are you predominantly Type I or Type II? I ask because every good training routine should have both high rep and low rep "cycles". Even if you are predominantly Type II you should still do some high rep training. It's good for the tendons and ligaments and because everyone has all of the fiber types, you should not neglect those with the smaller %.

If you don't know it's understandable the only way to truly know is to have a muscle fiber biopsy.. which is unpleasant. But if you don't really know .. what types of sports have you naturally gravitated towards? Marathons, quarter mile or sprints?

In the end, if you are really serious, you need a well planned "routine" which incorporates the right mix of reps / sets / techniques based on your personal body type.

mgtarheels

The laugh is you puffing your chest out thinking you're the know-it-all expert on this subject, yet you use a trainer.

SomeCreep

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Interesting!

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woj

I don't buy it, everyone has been saying exact opposite for centuries....

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dyna mo

i'm actually trying to sort that out, my current routine consists of 5-8 rep sets, heavy weights and i am seeing results, but prior to this i was doing p90x and also some results.

i swam in college&high school, my events were medium distance- 200 yards.

L-Pink

The earth use to be flat.


.

The Demon

MGtarheels, haven't I embarrassed you enough to the point where you run off in shame? You have no idea why I have a training, thus further embarrassing yourself.


Dy na mo, you won't find someone who has increased muscle mass with high reps and low weight. It goes against basic bodybuilding science.

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GAMEFINEST

lol...its old ....you can try all kinda reps...

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Naechy

i like your avatar picture Ethersync

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marketsmart

this is the exact same comment i hear from all the skinny guys in the gym that cant bench more than 135....




.

bushwacker

Yep, those are the same guys that use the squat rack to do curls.

Translation

That's what I figured. Keep pretending you laugh at guys lifting lots of weights, screech.