dyna mo

100g of carbs

Alky

i didn't read the entire thread, but you should be eating more then 12 carbs a day on keto.... just make sure they are from fiber.

Varius

Lots of people do, but I don't bother with checking. I do get the metallic taste in my mouth often which is one of the signs of ketosis; I think as my carbs are extremely low, and I'm visually losing fat, as long as that continues I don't need to worry about using stix to check my progress.

Congrats on yours as well and yeah if keto didn't work for you to stick with, everyone si different. I'm finding this kind of diet extremely easy to eat, even eating out often.

Skinless mostly for convenience, almost every grocery store here sells them skinless; rarely do I see breasts with skin unless you buy a whole chicken OR go for some of the marinated types that I'm not a fan of (prefer to make them myself how I like).

I have read through the link you posted, it does slightly go against other stuff I have read, but I'm not qualified to really say who's right or wrong in that whole debate (and the one here between you and dyna mo / the demon) - so for the moment at least, I will stick with what's working for me.

Aside from the first few days, I actually have a lot more energy, sharper brain and am even waking up much earlier than I used to (I used to hate mornings). So it would appear at least my brain is getting the glucose it needs at this time.

I have been, have a list of some to try out

Yeah I'll be starting the lifting next week - so we'll see after a few weeks how it goes. I plan to follow a 5x5 routine I found, increasing weight 2.5 lbs per week.

The only change I am planning to make (aside from adding in the pre and post workout meals) is to try and make every meal be 65/30/5 and spread the fibre out more as opposed to lots of fat in one meal, then little in another, then lots in another, etc... just to see if that improves anything.

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Alky

oh and bodybuilding.com has a great section on their forum about keto.

dyna mo

good stuff, which 5x5 are you going with?

Varius

bodybuilding.com forums and site is where I got most information, they have a bunch of helpful articles and more so posters there.

My fiancee may not appreciate that

Thanks and congrats to you as well. I think the ultimate rule is, do what works best for you and your body. I find this diet fits my lifestyle well compared to other types of healthy eating I have tried, you seem to have found yours. I agree with avoiding processed foods, the chemicals in them are horrible.

True, the first week I am sure I lost a lot of water weight. I am drinking 4L a day though, so that should be sufficient and I meant I lost mostly fat because keto is a muscle-sparing diet (and visually, I can see a major difference while not feeling like I lost muscle).

Actually, IMO it's very healthy. Our bodies have not adapted yet through evolution towards agriculture. We are still very much "cave men" and they ate high fats, proteins and very little carbs. A few seasonal berries and the like was about it.

Or, look at vikings and/or eskimos. When you are at sea the majority of your time, or living in frozen lands, agriculture isn't really something on your mind.

I'll take some soon

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Varius

Sorry, I should have specified 12g NET carbs (not counting fibre). I get about 30g-40g fibre depending on the day, mostly from flax seed but also from mushrooms or the few other green fibrous veggies I mix into my meals.

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Varius

BurningHeart's one posted at bodybuilding.com, that won their 5x5 competition. Looked through it and seems like a good place to start, also fits my schedule:

Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri (as I have Wed for hockey and the weekend to rest/relax/activities).

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dyna mo

right on, i'm not familiar with that one, i will read up on it. i wasn't aware of a 4 day 5x5.

i'm in month 2 of the madcow 5x5 and love it, crazy hard work.

Varius

I see on her guide, at the bottom it points to Madcow's if you are an advanced trainer - so her's is probably more for beginner/intermediate.

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dyna mo

i wasn't aware it's for advanced peeps, i'm far from an advanced bb'er! i am seeing results though, still adding weights weekly/in the volume phase.

Cory W

How many calories a day do you keto guys get?

I struggle getting the supposed daily caloric limit on non-processed.

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96ukssob

congrats man

ive done this diet a few times and pretty difficult to do when you are traveling frequently... people always look at you weird when you order 8 sides of bacon and a water

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BittieBucks Eric

Interesting topic

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Varius

I am doing 500 calories under my maintenance, so ~2100-2200 a day.

If you are eating low-fat as you mentioned, yeah I would think it's hard for all-natural foods to add up - I'd suggest adding stuff like natural peanut butter or olive oil in moderation to boost your cals maybe ?

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Varius

Yeah, it's especially shocking to Costa Ricans who cannot understand not wanting rice, beans and/or potatoes but adding extra cheese, bacon, oils, etc...

Thus far they have all been pretty accommodating though.

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dyna mo

i just read the info on that 5x5, that's one rigorous routine. 90 seconds rest b/w sets- OUCH!

strobi

How come that bodybuilders who are cutting, and eat LOADS of carbs still get to the 8-9% BF? Most people who want to lose weight and retain muscle go for the 50/35/15.

(50% carbs, 35% protein, 15% fat)

So that's exactly the opposite, loads of carbs, loads of protein, a little bit of fat.

Also, how can you do a decent workout on that amount of carbs?

Not dissing at all, but if I don't eat a decent carb rich meal + a banana, I surely can't deadlift or squat!

The Demon

This is humorous considering you'll get better advice from the bodybuilding forums than 99% of the books you read regarding "diets". I know because I'm certified.

That's not why you carb up after two weeks. It takes around that time to get into keto for the first time and deplete your glycogen levels..

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Varius

Working out, I'll be able to answer that question next week

However, I will then have 30g carbs pre- and 30g carbs post-workout, that don't count towards my daily goals as they will be burned completely by the workout.

That said, I feel strong and with more energy this whole month (aside from first few days/week) and even playing 3 hours of intensive hockey find myself faster and with more endurance than before, with no carbs.

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dyna mo

it's my understanding that it is due to the insane amount of energy they expel in training.

i can say from my experience, at 50/30/20, i'm not adding fat. and i eat more than a maintenance level of cals (~3000).

The Demon

Different diets work for different people, especially depending on the amount of insulin resistance a body possesses. Also, most of the bodybuilders I've met actually RECOMMEND doing keto until you get under the 10% barrier, then start stacking up on carbs with a ratio some thing like yours.

Easily. It may not be as intense when you first start out but once you start carbing up and replenishing your glycogen levels, your workouts are going to own.

And when I eat carbs, I get sleepy/drousy throughout the day. On Keto I'm fully alert.

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Cory W

I do the olive oil, that does help. The peanuts give me issues. I used to take that natural peanut butter and mix it with water for shakes. Did not work well for me, which sucks because that's easy calories....

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strobi

Interesting stuff guys! Looking into this!

dyna mo

Take Charge will be PERFECT for you to take pre/post wo then.

dyna mo

avocados.

Varius

Yeah, actually my gf is going to Orlando tomorrow so she will try and bring it back with her and I might have it then just in time

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dyna mo

cool cool, i wish i would of sent ya a couple then.

dyna mo

Varius, here's a link to a very good thread re: 5x5 and how it works.

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6213

it helped me understand how the program works, prior to reading it i was not aware the growth from the program really comes on in the deload/intensity phases of the program, not the volume. this crucial point is overlooked in many 5x5 workout descriptions

i want to thank tony199 again for pointing me to the 5x5 too.

thanks tony!

minicivan

Perfect example of someone that wants to talk about something they know nothing about and pass themself off as an expert when they can't even make sense. No one said you had to "carb up after two weeks". That has no relation to your brain trying to adjust to the lack of glucose and new fuel sources in the first couple weeks of being in a state of ketosis.

You certified at what? Changing tires? You saying you have a degree in nutrition or a certification in physical training? If you bring the word "certified" into it... I doubt you are very qualified to talk about anything related to biochem and molecular biology.

Not sure where you get the idea that someone is going to go low carb and they have to "carb up" after two weeks to deplete glycogen levels. That doesn't make sense. Within a few days of restricting carbs, you will be in a state of ketosis and glycogen levels are down and glucogen levels are up. Carbing up causes the opposite to be happen - something you seem to not understand. There is no point to "carbing up" unless you are on a cyclical ketogenic diet and trying to lift at the same time and you need to increase sugar stores/hydration levels - which is not what this conversation is about.

Trust me when I say you can cross politics and bio chemistry from your "things I am good at" list.
;)

The Demon

Nobody said anything about carb up? Actually, I believe I was the one that said something about it. You really don't know what you're talking about.

Wonderful, someone who manages to regurgitate "bro science" articles is going to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

The part that I bolded, I had to read again because either you are "slow", or you're committing a strawman. The carb up is BECAUSE of depleted glycogen levels, not TO deplete them. At least TRY to sound intelligent.

That's ok, it's too easy spotting an idiot, especially an idiot that's challenging your superior expertise.

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xxweekxx

Stop arguing with the demon.. i said "your body can convert dietary protein to glucose", and he said thats bro science.. i stopped listening to him after that..

i learned that shit when i was 12yrs old...

anyway minicivan seems like me and you are on the same page... for me personally i do best on LOW carb high fat/moderate protein.. but i dont do well on NO carbs/Carbups..

i just eat anywhere from 50-200g of carbs a day.. usually end up around 100g ~ 400 calorie mark in carbs.. i feel great.. my brain gets the glucose it needs.. my muscles get the glucose they need.. my workouts dont suffer.. all is well

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Cory W

So you do have 60g carbs a day?

That's right at what I have myself.

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Varius

I didn't for my first month, as I was not yet working out so didn't require the additional energy/glucose for my muscles.

Now that I will add working out starting Monday, yeah I will have 30g pre-workout and 30g post-workout (mostly mixed in a protein shake). As those should be completely used up by the workout though, they don't count towards my daily totals.

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Cory W

I am not sure how much carbs really matter for working out (forgive me if that's been up for debate in this thread already). But a lot of pro-athletes say its overrated. I surf, I play basketball, I do windsprints, I don't need a whole lot of carbs. I never run out of energy.

Lots of articles say you don't need them at all.

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dyna mo

links to these articles?

andrej_NDC

Cyclic ketogenic diet really works, its the only diet I do when I want to lose fat without loosing much muscle. What was your exact plan? I always avoid carbs from monday to friday, my body is in the ketogenic phase around late tuesday or wednesday. Then after friday's training I start with carbs, I drink 2 big maltodextrin drinks, each around 100-150g, one right after the training, one one hour later, after another hour I start eating normally(with carbs) and do it until sunday evening. I know it works better if I did the ketogenic phase until saturday, but I'm happy with losing 1kg of fat per week. It only works for 3-4 weeks, though, then its better to get a rest and start over in 4-6 weeks, if there is still some fat left.

andrej_NDC

I did urine tests, it takes me 2-3 days to get into ketosis. My work out is hard even without eating carbs, though. First week, its quick, I'm in ketosis usually tuesday evening, second week its wednesday and third week I'm happy with wednesday evening, thats why I don't do it for more than 3 weeks in a row, when I see how the body adapts to it.

Varius

I agree with I don't think the body needs carbs; but from what I have read, it seems there are a few ways it helps that most people agree with:

- Post workout, your body may break down muscle tissue to replenish glucose in the muscles; if you supply it some, then it won't do that.

- Carbs create an insulin spike which helps to move nutrients into your muscle tissue quicker.

- If consumed quickly enough, it's a good time to get supplements in that you otherwise wouldn't consume which also aid in muscle growth and recovery like dextrose and creatine.

The pre-workout shake may not be necessary; some people probably do without, while others swear they need it to push themselves to max lifts. Probably one of those things that ends up being different for everyone.

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Cory W

Let me dig around, its mostly in blurbs. I could totally be wrong, but based on my own body, I do way better at around 60g.

Peanut butter was a great energy source for me, made me feel great, but it doesn't completely sit right with my body.

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jwerd

Try pizza from coconut milk, flax seed (since you are already using it) and coconut flour and of course eggs: .. coconut oils are amazing to cook with as well, if you want to switch up the healthy fats I'm doing Primal/Paleo (they are close, but primal is more about high fat) right now, which I guess is close to what you are doing.

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The Demon

Sure you did kid. It's a wonder why nobody's responding to you or minicivan and instead, taking my input. You see, you have to actually know what you're talking about or at least pretend, and neither of you morons are capable.

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The Demon

See, when I first started CKD I actually gained some muscle. At the very worst, I haven't lost any and really, there's no reason you should be losing muscle on CKD. If you're lifting heavy (which I do), and consume at least 1 gram of protein per 1 pound of LBM, you should be maintaining muscle while burning off the fat.

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Varius

I think it may depend on the exercise type as well.

Playing hockey for 3 hours straight, on only my 12g of carbs I was having, wasn't a problem this past month. Just as you do many activities on low-carb.

However, weight lifting specifically, may work differently than mostly cardio-based activities (in that your goal is to create micro-tears of the muscle which must then repair themselves) and why the right types of carbs immediately after the workout can help.

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andrej_NDC

I lose some strenght, not much, though...its like I'm at 95% of what I have lifted before CKD. And the power quickly comes back later, just the fat doesn't.

The Demon

Yea that's to be expected. I find my best workout day is the day after the carb up when my muscle glycogen levels are replenished. So Monday and Tuesday I would think. But yea generally on CKD you have to sacrifice some strength because of the lack of carbs/energy. That's why every 3 months I switch from CKD back to strength training.

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Varius

Hey J, yeah Jen saw on your FB you were doing something similar

I'm not much of a coconut fan, but willing to try it out - thanks

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minicivan

Look douche. "Nobody said..." as in "that was not part of the conversation between me and someone else" which YOU decided to chime into with unrelated remarks. And we were not talking about cyclical diets but the simple issues surrounding process of fat oxidation and fueling the brain while in a state of ketosis.

You apparently were replying to me - not within the context of anything i said, but in the context of something you said which I didn't even read - which made no sense to me being it had nothing to do with our discussion. And you are just regurgitating the usual bodybuilding board bullshit and dismiss some of the worlds foremost authorities on keto diets and cyclic keto diets (the two authors i mentioned specifically in addition to every medical study i could find was Dan Douchaine and Lyle McDonald, both who are experts on the topic) as "bro science". Odd that you are such an expert on the topic and have no idea who these people are.

No idea what "articles" you are talking about. I was talking about books on the topic by body builders and published studies by physicians and medical researchers.

Again, you said it took 2 weeks to get into ketosis - when it typically takes 48-72hrs. Anyone that has even done it knows that. A prime indication that you are a dipshit largely making things up as you go based off shit you skimmed from a board of overheard in locker rooms. Then you said you needed to Carb up after two weeks (the same point you say you are entering ketosis). Saying that basically, once you are FINALLY in ketosis, you then completely reverse the process and put yourself back to the beginning, requiring another two weeks (according to you) to get back into ketosis. More indication of your ignorance. Furthermore, cyclical diets are most typically done in 7 day cycles, not 14. 3 days to deplete glucose, 3 days to burn fat, 1 day to carb up and repeat. So again, you're lost. And all of that has nothing to do with the brain fog i mentioned that one will usually start to experience in the first two weeks or so due to your brain trying to adjust, down regulate and use a new fuel source. It goes hand in hand with being in ketosis.

Yeah... I have an education and you have a "certification" - so who could question you and your 4 week internet course you completed to be able to meet the insurance requirements to train people in a gym? Good god.

dyna mo

if you get a chance and find some, that would be super. i love learning more about nutrition!