Why does this not make sense?

We went into Iraq in 1991, kicked their ass. Because we have no plans to create a huge empire, we didn't go into Iraq. Instead, we allowed their government to remain in power by signing a peace treaty. Nearly instantly the peace treaty was violated. It got to the point while Clinton was in office that they were shooting at us daily. I'm a former United States Marine; I'm pretty fucking confident that when any country launches a missile at a US warplane it's an act of war. This went on for years.

You say we went "back in" looking for WMDs. I say they declared war on us by firing at us on a daily basis.

While we are talking declaring war, isn't the Israeli naval blockade an act of war? Not to mention the missiles hitting Israel on a daily basis?

And the evil Israeli mind readers are to know this how? Did they forget to bring their special Zionist evil over lord detector rings?

It seems to me if they were actually using paint ball guns they went above and beyond their duty to try and not harm innocent bystanders. Our Military sure as hell would send troops into that situation with paint ball guns.

The Video pretty much supports the soldiers side of the story as you can clearly see they were being attacked the moment they landed on the decks. Like it or not they had a job to do and it doesn't matter if it's un-popular with a bunch of activists or not.

This isn't like the Thai govt actively having it's troops shoot civilian protesters. (btw where is the big 20 page topic and out rage about that? ) The point being the blockade was a known factor and these ships tried to run it knowing they would cause a conflict. They stopped being "innocent" civilians the moment they boarded those ships to try and run a military blockade.

For the Record I do think Israel can go a bit far at time and by no means do I think they are blameless in the whole middle east problems. However I looks at the facts of what happened here instead of just jumping on the hate bandwagon. Their soldiers had every right in the world to open up fire in this situation.

It's not the world according to Israel. But it's the Israeli blockade, and only they decide who inspects the ships, but they only the Israelis decide which ships can pass.

I'm guess saying that "Turkey inspected the ship" means about zip to the Israelis.

BTW, I have yet to see in the press that it was inspected before it left port.

I agree with you. Israel can - and has - gone too far. Clearly their intention here to seize as much territory as they can. They've been doing this very slowly over the past forty years, and the amount of territory they do not control or own is slowly shrinking.

And I can understand why. Their entire race has been under threat for the past one hundred years or so. I'll never understand why one race believes they can look down at another race, or how one race believes they are better than any other race. Even before the Nazis, the entire Jewish race was looked down at.

But you need to take the Muslim / Middle East / Israeli context out of the issue. If your off the coast of any country, that country under international law has the right to stop you and inspect you. It's never open to discussion. Ever. The United States does this every day, mostly in the interests of stopping drugs from coming in.

Has Israel done wrong? You betcha. They sure aren't saints, that's for sure. They once bombed a clearly marked US ship because they knew it was listening in on something else that the Israelis didn't want anyone in the world to know.

To top it off, they are sending out another boat to run the blockade. It's amazing.

lol .. again those " no-fly zones " ... Research it and see the legality of it..
Same with your " we can board any ships in international waters " .. research that too, and post links to the international law that allows that..

Not because you repeat it over and over that it becomes a truth ... :1orglaugh

I've never researched the "no fly zones". I don't believe there is an "international law" about no fly zones, and there's never been a ruling for or against them. However, it was part of the peace treaty Iraq signed, and thus, it became fucking legal.

I have researched international law a bit being as it's coming up in this thread. You should do some research to.

According to "international law", or the "United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea", you have what's called an "exclusive economic zones". This is two hundred miles from the coast of the host country. In this zone, all nations have the right to transit this area, but is "subject to the regulation of the coastal state". In perfect English, it means if your 200 miles off the coast of Israel they can order a ship to stop, board it, and inspect it.

This is exactly how the United States and the US Coast Guard deals with drug runners. Don't they call it a "safety inspection" or something like that, and if they find drugs or something illegal they arrest them all?

Israel was exercising it's legal right to board and inspect a ship. Israel legally boarded a ship that refused to stop, and was attacked them as they boarded.

I feel that I must correct you...the no fly zones were not part of the cease fire agreement...but were imposed at a later point when Sadam began attacking the Kurds in the North and the Shiites in the South of Iraq. We and the French...I think...imposed the no fly zones with the French withdrawing at some point. I don't think the UN sanctioned the no fly zones and DirectFiesta thinks that if something is not sanctioned by the UN it is then an illegal act...to which I say pigshit.

fuck UN, UN has no muscle or authority to enforce anything.

US has always been the muscle and enforcer of UN

Well, there's your answer. The French were involved.

We should have known better.

In all fairness, why stop there?

The UN is entirely biased organization that rarely has the best interests of all of it's members at heart, but instead caters to handful of nations that carry the weight. Granted, it might have stopped a few large wars, but in the mean time we have places like Africa that have gone through twenty years of warfare without so much as a mention. Go figure.

so you think usa would allow north korea to send commando's onto american ships in international waters to "inspect" the ship.

get real :2 cents:

Do you think israel would allow armed palestinians to inspect their ships ? syrians ? thats what i thought, what you meant to say was "if you are jewish" its ok , " if you are muslim" it's not ok.

and by "inspect" do you mean attack and murder civilians carrying aid or actually inspect like in the dictionary ?

Turkey should apologize for having forced Israel to attack civilian ships. The Palestinians should compensate Israel for the Diesel that had to be used by the Israeli navy. The Arabs should donate some land to Israel to help alleviate the pain of being attacked unfairly in the international antisemitic media.

Well North Korea "commando's" did more than board an American ship in international waters...it killed and wounded crew members...captured the ship...the USS Pueblo...in '68 and still has the ship to this day. It released the surviving crew members...82 men...11 months later.

Dunno what videos you guys are watching, but its pretty clear those soldiers were being attacked in what looked like an ambush as soon as they landed on the ship. At one point there were queues waiting for the next soldier so they could get stuck into him...

If you are being boarded by soldiers with guns manning a blockade you don't ambush them with knives and other weapons and expect them not to use their guns. Common sense maybe?

All Israel haters on this thread, please see this and tell us what you think?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0

This kid is my idol
Kid against crowd


https://youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I

As even TheKing said, the " no-fly zones " werre not part of any agreement of any type :

So much for your justification for war " they were shooting at our planes " ...

As for the boarding ( not mentionning killings ) of ships in International waters , I still am waiting for your backup on that . It should be easy for you to provide it as you are so adament that it is normal, legal and done daily ... by ... some unnamed other countries ...


Finally, for the UN, it should be dismantled. It is rendered useless by the non-stop protection from a security council member of one of the worst offender in the post WW2 era, and only serves as a smoke screen when needed to " justify " so called operations that are in fact not even sanctionned ( as in the no-fly zones article ).

Owned....

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Wow Balls of steel !!

Check at the end where they interview some of the rabid arabs .. their idiotic answers show up what simple people they are.

correction : crew member ( singular )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_(AGER-2)

,,, and they just wanted to board and inspect .. all perfectly legal .... in national waters ..:1orglaugh

Apparently what witnesses from the boats are saying is that israel opened fire at the boat and wounded people before they actually boarded it. There is some footage that seem to confirm this as well.

Regardless of who started the violence. Experts in international law that have commented the case, have said that Israel had no right to board the ships and that it is a grave breech of international law.

From what I understand, Israel would have the right to inspect the ship if they where considered to be in a state of war, which they are not considered to be by the international community. However inspect does not equal board and they would only have had the right to turn the ships away if they found weapons on them (metalrods and knives don't count....). They never have any right to confiscate ships of nations they are not at war with.

Either way you twist this Israel has breeched international treaties that they are party too and should be punished.

In my opinion the only solution to the Israel/Palestine problem is to put Palestine under UN rule with international peacekeeping forces until the current ruling generations are no longer relevant (25+ years).

"witnesses from the boats "
This is 1000% lie. Why you think the soldiers came in first place using PAINT GUNS?
Show me the footage, I want to see a link!!!!!!!! 1 link, 1 footage, SHOW ME.

Israel could stop the boat easliy with 0 soldiers wounded, but they wanted to make it peacefully, then they got attacked.

Sorry. this is the turth.

Nex time I visit you " peacefully " , I will remember the bring my zodiacs, gunships, helicopters ... at 4:00 AM ... And please do not mind a few bodies here and there .. it is all for fun !

All those impartial witnesses on the boats eh :)

No bias there whatsoever.

there will be no videos from the crew....idf confiscated all camera cards and camera footage first, laptops, everything was taken. which if i were on that ship, id think they were going to kill us and would revolt too, you dont take cameras while "inspecting a ship" you take footage and remove evidence before or after you gun down people. which they did.

Rochard Rules!

The discussion style strictly constructive with support of interesting facts.
Short, constructive criticism, no yellow shit.

Oppositing "TV crowd", the majority.
Solid respectable tactics. :drinkup

The idealists with TV-Brains become eyes of the stupid crowd, pushing them into the bloody conflicts, graves, while they are collecting dividends.

Fuck them all!
Fuck media!
Fuck western model of human rights, created by western intelectuals!
Fuck UN - The VIP club for bloody politicians! Created by just 4 powers. The sourse of "equality" with unequal rules!

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...ex.html?hpt=T2
There are several Swedish members of the flotilla that has testified about Israeli brutallity on other ships that didn't resist the boardings.
Link in Swedish:
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/meh...anda-1.1115400

As for the footage I have seen it was Al Jazeera so I will not truly belive it until it is confirmed.

You would believe IDFs military censored information over reporters, politicans, noble prize winners, professors and other people that were on the boats?

Don't you like action movies? The majority just loves it!

Oh.., I got it.., this story draws your attention just bc of its brutality richness. So brutally is actually good for ppl like you, TV-Brains.

Over 30 ppl died in Pakistan last 3 days. Very very brutally murdered. Did you know that? No movies, sorry :)

You know what.., I think Swedish guys participated in it just bc they knew it's going to be hot and brutal. They lo-ove it brutal... trust them. Didn't you know that brutally is a part of the humanity? Look around.

That's why Sweden sells so much weapon to pure countries. I think these members missed something...

With help you we just discovered the mistake of Isralis.

Isralis said "It's gonna be brutal guys!" and wows.. what we see... we see crowds of TV-Guys pleading for punishment... Amazing ah?

Fuck the shit... It looks like they loved it and want even more! :)
I couldn't believe it when i saw them saying "we want more!"

And, you know..., I'm as a pornographer see it in their eyes! Satisfaction!

That would explain all the people israel commandos killed. generally when i try not to kill anyone , a "good" result isn't shitloads of people shot and killed..
huh ? i hope our military isn't this stupid.

They were being murdered, generally when i am being killed i tend to protest a bit , maybe even fight back..

the difference is , the israeli job is to stop starving kids from getting food and medicine , the boats job was to deliver aid. What israel did was unpopular to the REST OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD ( turn on the tv, u.n., nato , dozens of countries all comdemn the murders )
like the ethnic cleansing and starvation they are subjecting the palestinians to ?

Going a bit too far is like burning your toast or yelling at a cop. Murdering unarmed children and elderly by the truckload because they have a different god is just sick religious fucktards

Why is it that every time there is a discussion some people just can't keep the focus on the topic at hand?

So what your saying is the usa admitted it should have let the commando's board the ship, and you agree north korea had every right to kill all those americans because they weren't permitting north korea to inspect the ship ? furthermore the usa must have attacked first thats why so many people were killed.

Ask them.

I think those "some ppl" opposing/criticizing of your unbalanced views.
Since you have no constructive arguments to criticizm of "some ppl" so you pissed off.
Accept point of view of "some ppl", don't be a kook. Let them.

Democracy.

My english is obviously good enough as soon as you are answering to my messages. We could speak French if you wish, no difference to me, two foreign languages are more then enough regarding my opinion.

I perfectly know what is going on there and what kind of ghettos are made for rest of non albanian (those that were not killed and forced out) people there in this moment and that's what US absolutely support.I could put money on table and bet that I have info that you can't have, and don't want to see, from one simple reason, and that is proximitiy and ties I have there. It would be the same that I try to explain to you about native Indians position and history in US,even worse.

Regarding Bondsteel , I will just paste wikipedia info " Camp Bondsteel is the main base of the United States Army under KFOR command in Kosovo.". Exaplanation about NATO is there and that US role is small, is silly in a same way you are justifying complete war there. Formally, NATO attacked, but just see what was majority of forces and why then other NATO countries didn't accept Kosovo independence and they fight for it . (hey man,they attacked like you say). Do yo know that pilots from Norway refused bombing and attacking when they got order? (yep, NATO country)

Are you aware that USA and NATO asked from Serbia to give them free passing over it's territory, use whatever is necessary and not be included in domestic law? do you know about that and how would you call it, if I may ask? Care about Kosovo Muslims?Read other's resources and back up you knowledge before judging. It was planned to be classic occupation and war started once it was refused, with fake report about massacre that was prooven by Finish pathologist, years later. But you don't want to know, since it is a shithole, probably.

You are talking about possible sloughtering of quater million of Muslims. Possible, of number that no one knows since Albanians there refused to register and sign in in inventory for decades , so they could use numbers in a way you do. Those albanians were armed by USA and supported to attack before anything happened at first place. (small reminder for you: http://www.truthinmedia.org/images/holbrooke-kla.jpg ) . I hope you know who was this man. While you are talking about possible killing, not actual, how many deaths US army made in Iraq? And were there weapons of mass destruction? Or it was a lie? Same scenario was used in Kosovo, just it is much smaller scale and you already went to next war. Logic is strange, kill million muslims on one side of planet while helping other not to be killed eventually regarding your own statement.It sounds silly whoever that is involved.

I've gave you already several informations that you can research from resource you think it is suitable , but you refused. (here is one more http://4international.wordpress.com/...as-srebrenica/) . There Only logical explanation for your point of view is that you are Muslim from there or simply don't care about truth and it is easier for you to follow official version.

No...that is what you are saying...sport.