Jel

lol behave... since when has anything the gov't touched when it comes to porn and/or sex turned out for the better?

Read up on the backpage case recently?

Heard of 2257?

Forgot about the raids you had to endure?

Paul Markham

Nothing killed offline porn or online porn or paysites. The tubes just made them make less money.

The online porn business has never been able to hire the best people because offline people paid more. That also goes for selling their product to online, online couldn't pay the money offline wanted. Because it would effect their sales to porn shops. No one sells for less money to do someone a favour.

Even compared to sites with 100s or even 1,000s of videos tubes are better for accessing porn than paying for it.

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Paul Markham

I was sure you announced you were moving to Portugal. Still interesting that you only have your partner producing content.

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Paul Markham

Magazines are all about advertising, DVDs are about the product. The ads in most soft porn mags were sold mostly to porn companies, because mainstream wouldn't advertise in porn mags. Hardcore porn mags rarely carried adverts.

The paysite model isn't dead, it's just shrunk and harder because tubes give it away for free and a better option. The problem for most is investing the money in enough and good content to make the site profitable. 2005 it was much easier than today because there were no tubes giving it away for free.

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The Porn Nerd

I was just responding to your post where you said the business model is a bad one, or dying, or dead, or whatever you said. LOL I was just pointing out that paysites are NOT dead. So we agree.

But Jel (as is often the case I might add) has crystalized the issue nicely:

ALL forms of 'mass media' these days are based on ad revenue (except feature films). TV, radio, the Internet (mainstream sites or porn) - it's all the same ad business model. Which is fine. But the product being sold, either given away or bait-and-switch, is porn. Just like the TV show itself is the "product" while the television STATION is the "ad network". Again, Jel put it best so sorry for lamely repeating what he wrote so well.

Thing to remember also is the adult biz is JAM PACKED with people who want to make a quick buck. So to shoot content with a recoup date of 2 years vs. 3 months is too daunting for them. They are like day traders vs. long term investors. Over time, the long term investor wins because it's more profitable, he is in it longer and he can ride out those 'bad days' whereas day traders have a few bad weeks and they are out of biz.

So it all depends on your Goals and what kind of life/lifestyle you want to have, that's all. No real arguments here. LOL

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Jel

No, they made SOME small operations less money because those small operations didn't adapt, and who thought they could keep the same bottom line without putting in the work needed to adapt (ie me, circa 2010).

I made great money before the tubes came along, but I was doing an absolute maximum of 4 hours a day, and that was a looooooong day for me. An hour or less was my usual working day. These days I put in 8 - 14 hour days but make a lot more than I did in 2006/7/8/9 and that is because I adapted to 'life after tubes'. 2010 - 2013 or so I couldn't see the wood for the trees and was a 'click snob'.. I wanted 300 SE clicks to my site as opposed to 300,000 views of a video. I was a fucking idiot

Jel

Very valid point, and one I often forget

thommy

that might make sense when you talk about a personal point of view.
but i think that the discussion here is around a business.

a business is ALWAYS targeting a market size.
so let´s see this as a cake.

if there are too many hungry for this cake it will be shared in smaller and smaller pieces.
if you are personally ok with this piece - fine - but it does not touch the business part where might be some people more hungry.

to feed this people you can

a. get rid of the competitors and share the cake with less or
b. make the cake bigger

as porn have already a limited market size and it is a luxury good what nobody really needs to live you can only have an eye on the other budgets a visitor might have.
and this is what actually happens.
the tubes are making MUCH more money with selling other things as with selling porn.

smart media buyers do not even see the value of their advertising in what they sold after the click. they see the value in the information they got and the option to contact the user later again.

there ARE already many buyers out there willing to pay 100 or even over 100% of what they can make with the product sale because they have very other longterm goals.

this is what makes the cake bigger because this buyers do not target a little fraction of a users budget anymore - they are targeting the complete wallet.

porn in just one option in that mix - but later in can be possibly a new washing machine or the next holiday trip it CAN be a porn DVD but also the next hollywood blockbuster or a netflix membership.
so the market that is and was attracting users WITH porn is much bigger and can either pay more people or more money to the elite of them.

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MaDalton

not sure what is interesting about that

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MaDalton

Your posts are hilarious as usual, really.

I will spell it out for you but I am pretty sure you will either not understand or ignore:

- Offline died because they thought they could dry out online by not selling to them. If they would have cooperated they would have made a lot more money from licensing than they did later when they were bankrupt and selling for 50 bucks per movie

- Online today has far better producers than offline ever had - maybe aside from real cinematic movies like French Satisfaction
But 99% of the old offline porn that you seem to consider the glory times of this industry is crap from todays point of view.

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Paul Markham

AGREE. It's liars like Thommy who claim I said that.




Companies like Netflix, HBO, Amazon, etc would disagree with you. The new growing market is in paid TV.

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Paul Markham

Could you have made better money if you had put in 8-14 hours a day, before Tubes forced you to?

Getting 300,000 depends on the quality of your porn video, as you hide these site or sites we can only guess.

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Paul Markham

Offline isn't dead. It's a lot smaller but still there. They weren't interested in selling to online porn for the money online was offering. Offering 10% of the money online was paying was of no interest. Who in online porn will pay $3,000 for a year's licence for an image set? If they had offered more than offline was worth they would have sold. They're businessmen who sell to the highest payer. The online market was way to fragmented for any site to afford that.

Offline had far better producers than online had because they paid more. Or are you saying online producers were better and took less money for their work?

The glory days were the time when online and offline were both strong. So around 2000 to 2004.

You are now talking from a point of ignorance. It'snot funny.

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Paul Markham

It indicates the size of your production. We employed 4 shooters.

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MaDalton

yes, Paul, you are right with absolutely everything you say. $3000 is the magic number and we all bow to your genius.


yeah, I remember hiring one or two of them after you shut down your business cause you didn't want to invest in an HD camera. Because in SD everything looks better.

PS: why did you need 4 shooters when you only shot one of your magic $3000 sets a day? Seems excessive.

PPS: You have no idea about the size of "my" production - not even I do - cause remember: I quit 2 years ago.

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The Porn Nerd

I'm sorry but are you saying there are advertisers selling non-porn products on porn sites? Can you post some examples of washing machines and Netflix ads on porn sites?

Because all I ever see on Pornhub, XHamster and the like are cam ads, dick pill ads, dating ads and the rare paysite ad. Maybe a 3D porn game thrown in there. I do NOT see washing machines and Netflix ads.

Or are you saying companies post the above ads, grab the emails, then send out Netflix ads to the end users? Intra-desting!

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thommy

read again what i wrote - i think I described it understandable.

1. what is mainly promoted on tubes are 95% offers that have nothing to do with porn
membersites. it is mainly dating and enlargement stuff but also casinos, 3D games,
cams, phone sex, software (i.e virusprotection, cleaners, VPN etc) but also a lot of
other stuff that has nothing to do with porn. in our network people sell car tires, e-
books, holiday-offers and we have even real estate from time to time...etc..etc...
we also sell traffic to so called free dating sites where people have to subscribe but
pay nothing as this free membersites again monetizing it with ads.

2. a big part of this advertisers are not simply sending the users to a shop-page but
have their own signup form or shopping card to get the data of the user.
with this emailadress or mobile number they do have access to this users and sell
them later whatever they want to sell (the washing machine and netflix was just an
example as this can be everything)

with this concept of marketing the value of a buyer or subscriber becomes x-times higher
as it would be when you just sell the product. with this higher value the price for traffic becomes higher and more profitable for the ones selling it.

they do not have to have the skills of a mediabuyer
they do not have the risk that the campaign doe not work
they do not have the risk that they don´t get paid
the technology will sell the traffic always to the highest bidder

that´s why 90% of the adult traffic goes into networks where a caravans of possible buyers are already waiting to buy it before the competitor gets them.

it is a simple competition game where only the best and most profitable will be the winners.

and again: there would be some traffic even for the porn membersites. I was looking around for years to find options for some smaller geos where i do not have buyers but I never found even one that matches this needs.

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Jel

Ofc, my point was the bolded part below, and most gave up and fucked off because the money wasn't as easy as it was before:

open secret: google panda & penguin fucked me up MASSIVELY, and in 2012 or so (I'm fuzzy on the exact dates) I was on my arse, and my company then went on to become bankrupt. Panda/penguin was very closely followed by the culmination of my alcoholism, and subsequent split then divorce from my partner of 16 years. I'd spunked all my earnings because I'm an everything at 150mph idiot lol, so was in a right mess. Everyone offline was telling me to go and get 'a real job'. I said fuck that, there are hundreds of millions of surfers, tried different things, had nickatilynx & his brother go the extra mile for me which led indirectly to other stuff, read what JT posted pretty much everywhere, and here we are (it took about 2 - 3 years to get back on my feet).

I'll never be on thommy's level, nor the many of the guys here who either post or lurk - I've always known I'm a small fish, but as porn nerd said in this thread, it's what you want that 'stops' you doing anything, not external forces. Whining about those is pure bollocks, and maybe it has something to do with my past jobs as an engineer (fruit machines & associated, then tv aerials/satellite dishes), but when you 'can't' fix a machine and the guy is losing money, or you 'can't' fix the old ladies tv aerial or satellite dish and she is going to go all xmas with no TV, then you find a way to fucking fix it, even if it takes you 12 hours. What you don't do is piss and moan about the obstacles like a 12 year old girl.

The amount of solid gold I've seen posted here over the years that you and like-minded people dismiss or try to argue about is fascinating to me, instead of being teachable and using things to your collective advantage, shit gets spouted as 'fact' because the understanding isn't there. I do actually get that you are on some life crusade to call out what you THINK is bullshit, but instead of asking questions and learning, you go all in with non-knowledge and look stupid to anyone who actually is knowledgeable on whatever the subject is, and far from 'helping newbies' as you so often claim, you do them a great disservice because those same newbies have no idea you're a miserable old fuck cursed with no sense that you might have something to learn, ever.

The Porn Nerd

I DID read what you wrote and no it was not understandable. This is often the case with your longer posts. Maybe it's a language thing...

But I do NOT see real estate offers or car tire ads being advertised on the tubes. Maybe in the German-speaking market but not on PH, XHamster et al.

And of course gathering emails or mobile phone data is a great way to market via email campaigns. Just ask Rochard and YNOT Mail. But the initial ad price is based on how the product being advertised is sold, not the future potential of data mining and emails.

So companies that have figured out how to squeeze 10% from spending 100K on dick pill ads are buying all the traffic, waiting in line for it, etc? Got it. But as you said, membersites (paysites) are not a part of this equation. The ones that DO advertise are owned by the tubes themselves.

I, for one, am not interested in pushing dick pills, casinos or virus protection ads. But for those who do dig that kind of thing, mozeltov.

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thommy

that you do not see it does not mean it is not there.
ad technology today works on much finer geo-targeting than just country or language.

and this is what you do not understand as it i a very other kind of marketing.

i have an advertiser since many years that promotes a free casino with us.
users get every day 1000 chips and can spend them or win more free chips.
their business model is that they sell chips to those that do not want to wait 1 day
and the biz is HUGE.

but what was even more astonishing is that around 30% of the signups come from women and 60% of the sales come from women.

so now imagine what you can do already with the knowledge that the user is a women
and willing to pay for play coins.
you do not even need data mining like facebook and google - you can already imagine a lot of possible products such a user might be interested on.

not all of them do it this way yet - but every day the number of this marketers becomes bigger and with it their advertising budget.

they are not part because they work like in the 90s and never changed anything.

and that the still working membersites are working BECAUSE they bought the tubes shows you already that I am correct. but the buying power that get fished on the tubes goes possibly to 3-4% into their paysites (what is still huge when you see it from the total number) 96-97% of the users there are generating OTHER revenues for other products but it is the main income for this tubes.

but you would also not exist without sites that advertise your products (on THEIR risk)
they just become less and less because publishers always go the easier and more profitable way.

as i said in this thread earlier: I KNOW that one big paysite program is already working on the problem and I am sure that they will make A LOT of money when they are done with that.

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thommy

self reflection is one of the rarest talents on earth - it will help you getting wherever you want.

i think there is no other biz with less people that have this talent.
whenever you meet a knocked out adult bizzer he will give you a list of people that are responsable - but you will not find himself on the list.

refreshing to read that you do not belong to this group.

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The Porn Nerd

Actually I (and other smart paysite owners) would exist without these sites. You are forgetting social media, Google, Bing, word of mouth, even clever YouTube channels and Facebook groups, etc.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

It will be interesting to see how this mysterious big paysite you mention handles this "problem" - not sure what you mean by that - as when it comes down to it, all paysites are selling pictures and videos. Paysites have tried 3D, 4K, virtual reality, etc but the "product" is still the same: people doing sexy things. None of these "innovations" brought back the good ol' days. I don't see much of a revolution coming in regards to paysites but we'll see I guess.

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thommy

it is not a "revolution" just adapt marketing options that are available since 12 years and what will bring them a huge number of professional sales people who know how to buy and convert traffic.

and of course there will be still other options to promote your content - i did not doubt it. i just talk about the big part of the total revenue stream of sites that are offering porn for ads.

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CurrentlySober

i lik trees...

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fuzebox

Paysites are just one small part of the adult industry. Why do you keep circling back to that?

Paul Markham

So how many companies paid you $3,000 for a solo girl image set as a norm?




No you didn't. So don't lie. I know where my old employees worked and you didn't hire them.

Also you know I got a bad case of cancer and that was after Eva's near fatal car crash. We then decided that I would retire and Eva took a job as transport manager at a trucking company. After two years looking after me. You have to know that so stop lying.

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Paul Markham

Thommy won't prove anything because he can't. Advertising revenue in free TV is big enough to fund production of TV programs and shows. But the fragmentation of the market today has led to dumbing down and the rise of quality TV on subscription models like Netflix.

Tubes can no way afford to buy content, so his entire philosophy collapses there.

But he'll come back with a wall of text telling you that if cars were free everyone would have one.

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Paul Markham

The size of a market isn't dictated by the number of suppliers. It's dictated by the money people spend.


Was thinking the size of a market dictated by the number of suppliers one of those solid gold moments?

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Paul Markham

Is 10% profit a gross or net figure? This is important in business because it indicates real profitability. 10% net profit is a little low unless turn over is in the millions, $100k per million does that include all costs, re-investment, good and bad times, etc? Still pretty low for that turn over.

If you have to buy "dickpills, casinos or virus protection" build a site, hosting, pay taxes, rent, staff, it sucks.

But if there is no buying traffic involved the return is good, is it as good as selling the porn?

However if it wasn't Mindgeek giving it away there are others ready to give it away. So without government help we're fucked.

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thommy

you come back with a wall of bullshit and the only thing you can approve is that you did not learn how to make money as soon as the professionals showed up.

so what do you want to teach us?
how to make NO MONEY ?

maybe you should just write a book about life at the end of the food chain. in it you can explain to people that moaning is much easier than thinking along.

i'm pretty sure that some sort of human would be grateful if you could show them strategies how to make other people guilty for their own stupidity.

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Paul Markham

It is now.

I keep coming back to it because the biggest part of the market today is people giving the product away for free to sell ad space for a lot less money.

Thommy says we make more money giving it away, so the debate keeps going on and on.

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Paul Markham

thommy

This message is hidden because thommy is on your ignore list.

I refuse to read or reply to his wall of text bullshit until he shows us proof we make more money in ad selling than porn selling.

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thommy

astonishing how you use the right argument for the wrong conclusion.



the size of a market from the point of view of EACH OF THIS suppliers also depends on the number of suppliers you dumb.

you will not sell a buyer 8 tires if he just need 4 - no matter how many suppliers you have. but you can sell this same customer gasoline.

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thommy

we all know that you ignore the truth - so thank you for pointing that out.

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Jel

I dunno man, I think every business, and every walk of life has a few that insist that someone or something else is always to blame. I'm nothing special or out of the ordinary, it's my experience most people in this business are the same when it comes to not trying to shift blame. Maybe that's why it annoys me when I see the exceptions (granted, there are more on here where people not in the business continue to post).

Jel

You think the money spent on porn has shrunk?




1. They weren't solid gold moments of my thinking, they, as I clearly stated, were/are solid gold posts

2. My thinking on that babble is irrelevant to whether there have been many, many, many solid gold posts over the years that you steam in and make a fool of yourself on.

Jel

1. how will you know when he has posted proof? I'll have a tenner you read every one of his posts

2. 'we'.. fucking hell. You sold porn, thommy sells ads. That's like thommy saying 'show us proof we make more money in porn selling than ad selling'.

And good point from fuzebox, thread title does say 'adult' and not 'porn'.

thommy

to understand the reason why you find many of this kind of people in our biz you need to understand the history.

porn before the internet was an underground biz.
only people that did not care their image or could not be successful in a normal life participated.
so the number of competitors was small and so was the IQ.

the same happend when internet came. in the start it was a market that was not really mentioned from the big boys - even bill gates did not believe in the future of the internet.

this was a time with a few rich users (internet was expensive in this days) and a few people selling porn to them. and yes it worked for this few people.

but internet became bigger and bigger and today you can reach the whole planet - no matter if your shop is at the time square or in the woods.

this big mass of people made internet to the biggest market the world ever have seen.
and such a market will not be untouched by the big boys.

as we do not have a "time square" where everybody could SEE that there are already more restaurants than restaurant visitors everything we saw was ending up in a bubble because one copied the other and at the end only the smart ones survived.
90% of them who tried it could not compete because of missing skills, missing visions, missing money and missing specialists.

how many youtube clones are out there ?
and how many made it?

people like paul did never understand why they made money.
he really thinks it was because he is good. but when people are hungry they even eat the food from the worst cook.

paul does also not understand the meaning of economy.
in his world it must be allowed that only one farmer is growing apples and works 4 hours per day. this farmer could take every price he wants for his apples no matter if another one had to work a month for an apple.

he does not understand that competition means prosperity and luxury for the buyers. he does not even realize that he is a consumer too - he sees it as a normal fact that he can to to a bakery and buy a bread for 3 euro.
he does not know that he would pay 300 euro in HIS world as there would not be another bakery allowed.

he also reduces buying power of a consumer to porn - wich was and still is 0,29% of a humans budget.

he can and will never understand that a carpenter 1000 years ago made and sold only one chair for each customer. he doesn't understand that thousands of cafes, restaurants and bars also bought one chair for each customer, not to sell the customer the chair but the drink or the food.

with this many carpenters produced many chairs and the chairs became cheaper and cheaper.

he can't understand what a gigantic industry it is today that people have built their business on buying chairs for their customers and offering a free seat.

in an industry where people with paul's IQ happen to be in the right place at the right time you will find many who do not understand the course of things and who are always looking for a reason that feels better than their own incapacity.

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thommy

i sold porn for many years.
i do know the difference between than and now.

I had a paysite affiliate programm in 99 already and in the good times we had a subscriber base of 20.000-25.000 members.

i can tell you that not even my revenue was lower as it is today - also my profit was less
as it was very hard and expensive to even support this member base and the affiliates
and i had a huge number of employees to pay.

imagine - with 50% revshare we pushed already more than the half of the gros profit in marketing. now take payment costs, traffic, servers, employees away than you see that there is around 10% left that you have to split in content and own profit.
these are fucking peanuts.

I started to make good money when i used my own free sites for promoting whatever is possible and not only my own products.
and at the end of the day I found out that I must be dumb to stay on the harder part and invested all my time in sales strategies and building user free user magnets that brings the mass.

if you make a network of sites that brings you sales to a specified product you will be able to make around 10 times more from a single visitor as from a free tube.
but you will only get a MAXIMUM of 1% of the possible traffic.
so if i do not target them that strict, offer them more variation and accept to make only a tenth from a visitor my net profit will be at least 10 times higher.

this maths is so simple and easy that i can not believe that people like paul don´t get that.

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fuzebox

A lot of people have this obsession with the thing they did in 2004 that made them money, as if they're entitled to make a living fifteen years later spending thirty minutes a day putting together a thumbnail gallery and submitting it for free to a bunch of TGPs.

Instead of complaining about how hard it is now, everyone should be grateful they had it so easy for so long

thommy

true

and compared to what you can make it is still an oustanding opportunity for the ones with brain AND willing to work.

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The Porn Nerd

It's because paysites are what I do and know best. Besides, paysites are at the foundation of what the tubes do and how they profit. Sure there are true "amateurs" uploading for the kink of it but when someone here says "content" they mean "paysites" (or DVDs I suppose).

I agree and know "adult" is much, much bigger than paysites. Sex toys alone are probably bigger these days.

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thommy

that was actually not the original tube-idea.
but it came as it came.

i am pretty sure that a tube with 10 new free videos from real amateurs each day instead 1000 updates that nobody will ever see, would still do better as any paysite.

"free" brings simply more people - and they do not come with the Intension to buy anything. this is why professional marketers are in charge at this point.

tell me what is complicated to optimize a doorway page for the key brazzers or mydirty hobby or a models name and if a users comes through a search enginge with this key buys ?

every grandmother can do that - and every grandmother will get a little portion of the 50.000 that are searching it every day, because 10.000 competitors do the same.

the tubes are receiving a few 100 million of users every day - not a few 100 million buyers but within this number are a few million potential buyers for ANY existing product.

you will not really want to tell me that this market is equal or smaller than selling porn.

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Paul Markham

Yes and until you give us evidence that it's not shrunk I will keep believing the same.


So give us some examples of those solid gold posts. Such as "traffic is king" when the only way to make money is to have content, a blank page is useless.

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Paul Markham

Ad selling makes way more money than porn. Selling ads on porn sites makes far less money than selling the porn.

The problem is today the porn business is structured with hosting/BW at a price that makes ad selling possible by giving away 100'000s of porn videos. In the past we could afford to sell a lot more porn, create porn and pay the BW it costs.

Tubes can't afford to pay for their porn. You couldn't afford to create the porn to build a site when 1,000s could. So your advice isn't something I take seriously.

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Paul Markham

In 2004 we were spending $1,000s of a week shooting content. Don't think the business is just what you do.

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Paul Markham

Porn industry was always built on a basis of recorded porn, either images or video or both. It's the mainstay of the industry. That's the same in 1994, 2004 and today. The difference is today we give it away in huge amounts instead of selling it. 500,000 per day watching free tube videos isn't a small part of the business. Imagine selling to an audience that large at the ratios we used to enjoy.

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Struggle4Bucks

Paul’s ignore list is getting longer. Unfortunately for him its all free listings. He could try to sell the top 15 spots on his ignore list.

Anyway....Soon he will be talking to himself again.

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thommy

than he will finally have someone who agrees with him.

I really have never seen a bigger ignorant - but if it makes him happy - who gives a flying fuck what Paul thinks?

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The Porn Nerd

Selling porn is a tiny fraction compared to ads. Anyone with a brain will admit and realize this point.

It's always better to be the TV Network than the hit TV show, or the Hollywood agent with 50 clients taking 20% from each vs. the actor making $20 million per picture.

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