thommy

the fact ist that not one of this dino companies ever understood the internet.

beathe uhse, playboy, hustler and whoever else did NEVER even get in the near of the noname companies that have started with internet and have been focused on internet.

the big name´s market share in internet is a joke compared to the millions of internet enterpreneurs that have seen their future in the www.

when TV came up there have been many people crying like paul does because they where focused on the cinemas. they will not understand til today that the market with free movies is thousands of times bigger as the cinema market ever was, just for the reason that movie-income from cinema was always related to the ticket price and the popcorn and coke. if you give the movie for free you have options to get on the buyers complete budget and that makes it so valuable.

alone in our little network we are generating around 100.000 free signups per month in the different advertisers sites. roughly 3-4% in average of this people will ever buy the product wich are possibly 3000 to 4000 buyers with a livetimevalue of around 150-200 euro in dating and around 400-500 euro in cams.
BUT: as the market today is completely different of before the same revenue again is made with the 96-97% that do NOT buy the product because smart advertisers are using this data they got on the free signup and selling this user who signed up in a dating site (but never paid there a cent) something completely else. and this "else" have no limitation - it can be the next holidays or a car insurance.
people that are able to think above the horizon do know very well that the real value is in the existing contact possibility to someone who is a consumer. and no matter WHAT he is consuming - if you have his contact you can sell him all he might need til the end of his life.

what paul does not and will never understand is that the biz he was in just focused on 0,29% of the consumers budget - and this 0,29% for pron have been in 1996 0,29% and they are still 0,29% - the only thing that have changed is that with growing of the internet we got more people with lower buying power in the net and MUCH MUCH MUCH more who compete for this buying power.

the complete pott we are focusing WITH porn today is approximately 1000-2000 times bigger as in paul´s stone-age

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Paul Markham

Pulling figures out your ass neans nothing.

Exactly my point. Today it is possible to give away porn and lots of other things for free. But don't claim you make more money than you did when people were able to sell it and could afford to produce and deliver it. Because it's simply not true.

Exactly right, back then you had to be a lot better at making the porn, marketing, etc because if you weren't the cost of the BW made you lose money. Today people can forget about the cost of BW because delivering 1,000s of free videos doesn't cost as much as 1 TGP. You weren't good enough then, others were.



Again you come up with stupid examples. If free TV was so great, why are HBO, Netflix, Amazon, Disney making more money by charging. Streaming and cable TV is over taking the free channels supported by advertising.

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Paul Markham

Today you're dead right, if the girl can speak English and able to market herself. Back in the day cam models earned less than magazine models and we regularly picked up girls who had tried webcam and didn't make money. How many webcam girls make $1,000 a week working on cams?

- When people where able to buy porn by Ideal bank (cost 0,30 cents per transaction) instead of telephone (20 - 50% of the transaction) i saw my income more than tripled in a year.

You can't compare the magazine market back in the day without including all the world and all the magazines sold in shops.


Do you know what Beate Uhse was making from Germany alone with a share of the German porn shop market? Now multiply that by the rest of the world and every porn outlets, soft porn as well, to get a figure.

I know, the argument is whether it make more money from giving it away for free because you can sell ad space or selling it. There s no argument more money could and was made when we sold porn. Otherwise Tubes could afford to commission their own content to be created. Which they clearly can't because the advertising won't pay for it.

They couldn't afford the BW at a raised price, can't afford to pay for their own content, because they don't make enough money.

20 scenes a day on Pornhub = $2,000,000 a year for content alone and that's not for good content. I only allowed $3,000 per scene. How much do they make from advertising? How much traffic do they need to pay for content?

And would we as an industry be better off if porn tubes disappeared. Not that they will and we have to live with the cards we are dealt, but don't try to argue we can make more money giving it away for free than selling.

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thommy

i give up on you. actually we all know now that there was no more money in the market as in the time when you made it .....

you write in a forum where people talk about a biz they live from.

now you don't know who does what or how much he earns but you are sure that they are all dumber than you and only harvest crumbs.

so you are here to tell the people that they are too late because YOU have already taken out everything that was possible.

in other words: you tell the people to give up their biz, in which many earn more in one year than you have earned in your whole life, because it is pointless.

you're such an old fool that you can't even see how ridiculous you are making yourself. if you need people to explain to you that the green men in your bed are not real, then you should go to the old people's home, because there are employees there who are paid to patiently listen to such stories of old senile men.

you're really freaking me out about getting old.
I hope that my fate will take me away before I start to tell tell such a hair-raising stupid bullshit.

the only thing you can really prove is that you didn't manage to build up a reasonably comfortable retirement income in this time of milk and honey.
so WHAT exactly should WHO learn from you?

every one of my dogs and cats knows more about internet and internet marketing than you do. so WHAT can YOU teach us ?
maybe how to win a formula1 race even though you've been cycling all your life?

i don't know what bridge you slept under before you switched to pornbiz. but it must have been a pretty deep valley if you now think you would have climbed the mount everst.

if you could play the piano i would like to explain to you why there are black keys next to the white ones and - surprise surprise - that you can use them too.

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Paul Markham

I got my calculations wrong.

Pornhub put up 20 new videos a day, at a cost of $3,000 per video. Could they do that and pay for the content?

20 x $3,000 x 365 = $21,900,000 How many surfers do you need to pay $21 million for just creating the content?

Did the porn industry generate 20 new scenes a day or 200?

Was the porn industry able to afford the BW costs or the printing cost or the duplicating costs prior to Tubes?

The truth is tubes can only survive because their costs today are so low. If they had to buy content, pay for a higher priced BW. Tubes would whither and die and paysites would replace them.

The Internet allowed loads of new people to enter porn and make money. Now the number of people making money in porn has shrunk to a low level. Most people here have switched to making money in other sides of the Internet. And porn as a part of their income, which is why the board has slowed down compared to the good times. With the front page containing threads from the last three days.

While Thommy rants on and on claiming something without offering examples to back it up. I offer examples.

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Sly

You just described how business has worked for literally, thousands of years.

Typewriters would still be around if computers were not so darn cheap!

Horse and buggies would still be around if cars were not so darn cheap!

The world moves forward. Business moves forward. Those that don't, get left behind. Companies need to constantly move towards the next thing because there is a disruptor sitting underneath them that wants to come up and shove a broomstick up their ass.

Time to forget the glory days of being the high school basketball team champion and find something new to celebrate.

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Roald

Wow PM still at it huh ;)))

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Paul Markham

I understand that and actually developed an online presence because I knew it was the future, when loads of other better content producers did nothing. The debate is over whether the industry made more money before Tubes ruined the industry.

IMO the best years were around 2000 to 2006. Offline sales were still good but not great, with DVDs, Cable, Mags, Phone lines, cable TV etc run on a country by country basis. Online sales were great as well on a world wide web basis.

To really coin it with an advertising based model online porn has to be accepted by mainstream advertisers. So ads for people like this. https://www.wordstream.com/articles/google-earnings

The porn industry is very much restricted to selling porn related products with it's advertising, with a few exceptions.

Tubes can't afford to buy content and certainly couldn't afford to relay content if BW were to rise. But for now Tubes are given loads of content and BW is priced very low.

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thommy

paul, listen - i will give you a short explanation of marketing.

a market size is the result of a multiplication where is the number of buyers before the x and the price after the x.

no matter if you increase the number before or after the x it will have a higher result.

a porn movie and any digital good that you are able to simply copy have only ONE price - these are the cost of production. it is not the same as a salami sandwich that you have to produce for each single buyer.

so in fact the value of this video can be calculated based on the numbers of buyers and the price they are willing/able to pay for it.

in this case you might produce a video for let´s say 1000 dollar and sell it for 2000 or 2500 to someone who will hopefully make 4000 on a very very long term by finding 1000 customers who want to buy it for 4 dollar.

but you can also do a very other calculation by assuming that this video can be served to 100 million visitors for free. if each visitor "pays" indirectly though advertising only 0,0005 US the final market size for this video is not 4.000 but 50.000 dollar.

of course it is not sold to ONE buyer for 2500 dollar but maybe to 2000 buyers for 2,50 dollar.

what kind of products are promoted on this video doesn´t matter. we have already so many options with products that do not care to advertise in adult. especially dating, gambling, enhancement, cams, amateurs, ebooks are buying more traffic as any network have but we do also have buyers from the very nonadult world who start to understand that wankers are consumers.

even if this number is not THAT much yet there are again thousands of mediabuyers with nonadult product pages where all this products that we do not have yet directly are promoted and sold. the products do not want to be visable on a porn site but they do not care where the shopsite get it´s traffic from and here we are in another buyer market that did not exist 10 years ago.

on top of that every smart advertiser (and i would say 10% of them are already smart) is not really dependent on the sale of the product that it advertises - this is the reason why many product advertisers are calculation on single opt in.
marketing is above the product - the value is in the connection to the consumer and keep this connection alive.
if a marketer does have this connection to a consumer, he is able to sell him ANY KIND OF PRODUCT later. and this makes a simple emailadress or phone number MUCH MORE valuable as the sale of the product this user was originally catched.

as the internet (and especially the adult internet) is not a place where 2 or 3 big players getting all - you have to rethink the strategy of production. you will not be able to find enough buyers for a 50 dollar video but you will be able to find thousands for 2,50.

so in fact the market today is MUCH bigger as it was before - just the always yesterday people like you did not catch this ball and swim with the stream - instead of that you are praising since years that the stream will go back to the old direction - but this will NEVER happen because too many people making too much money with a much bigger market as the one you are still dreaming from.

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Paul Markham

So here's my version of marketing advice.

Selling to 1-20 is great
Selling to 1-200 is good.
Selling to 1-20,000 needs 100 times the quality traffic.
Selling to 1-200,000 needs 1,000 times the traffic.

Selling 5 @ $30 is good
Selling 500 @ $30 is bad.

Industries that don't give the product away are doing great online, industries that are giving away for free aren't.

Show me the video that gets 100 million views to make your example prove itself. Show me the Tubes sites that can afford to spend $60,000 a day to update their tube site. As the average view rate is less than 500,000 you make $250 a video, which doesn't support buying the video.

Yes we now supply more porn to more people for less profit than ever before.
If the market is doing much more money than it was, Tubes would be making their own content to be exclusive. We're giving it away to sell ad space because Tubes can afford to with free content and very low priced hosting/BW. But they can't afford to with only making $250 per video

Yes I've used you calculation with the real number of views to get the real picture.
If you were right, Tube sites would be buying content for their Tube sites or for a members only area. They're not they have to feed off free scenes, because you're wrong.

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Sly

I had to reread this 5 times to make sure I was not in the twilight zone.

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thommy

me too :-) and i found out that I AM in the twilight zone when i talk to paul

maybe someone can teach him to use a calculator - i am unable to teach him a first grader logic

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AdultKing

I do both.

Competition is huge in both mainstream and porn.

Advances in software have democratised the content creation business in all areas, videos, music, book publishing, tangible online sales etc.

Unless you have a solid business model, or are very lucky, any online business you go into will be difficult to make money from.

thommy

wouldn´t it be funny if you have no competition in a biz where a lot of money is made?


what paul assumes is that the smart ones with a lot of money to invest will let the dumb ones eat the cake. this will never happen when there is money in a market.

he also does not know what "mainstream" means - I get more than 50% of my revenues from advertisers that are mainstream advertisers.

sure they can buy even better traffic on mainstream sites with 100 users per day. but they will pay for a click 1 dollar or even more (depend on the niche).
even when this traffic would convert 1:5 it will not bring them anywhere.
they prefer to buy 1 million clicks for 5 cent and convert it 1:100 because with so many buyers they will reach a MUCH better market position and MUCH higher payouts.

i wish that everybody in this biz would be such a moron as paul is - i would be a billionaire already with competitors like he is.

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Sly

Whale in a pond or minnow in an ocean…

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Paul Markham

I was trying to explain how saturating a market with suppliers and the same or similar product doesn't lead to same expansion of buyers.

At first the Internet allowed lots more people to sell product, then the expansion led to a watering down of profits, then to a level where few made more than a nice living. Even with all the big talk here about how well they were doing back in the good days. How many site made enough money to pay decent prices for content?

A handful, then a few who produced it themselves.

Today with Tubes they could never afford to pay low prices for content, because as Thommy points out 0.0005 per user needs 100 million to get a good return. They don't do that.

Because there are too many tubes "saturating a market with suppliers and the same or similar product doesn't lead to same expansion of buyers."

It was one of the first lessons I learned in marketing, 30 odd years ago.

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Paul Markham

Take a holiday in the real world, where a Tube site don't get 100 million views on a video.

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Paul Markham

.Over saturation has ruined the porn business.


You sell 1 million hits for 5 cents? What is it bot traffic?

Anyone selling traffic that converts will be charging pro rata for the traffic and the profit on the sale. Because traffic is mostly auctioned to the best bidder. If a site only does 1:5 on 100 hits, for a speed boat. $20 sale is great, for penis pills it sucks.

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thommy

where did i say that ONE tube shows a video 100 million times ?

the SUM of the tubes doing MUCH more - and THIS is the market.

i don't know how someone who claims to have learned something in marketing comes to the conviction that "the market" is limited to the visitors of ONE site.

your arguments and your arithmetic skills are becoming more and more hair-raising.

the "real wold" in what you want to send me for holidays is something that you have never been and what you will never see.

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Paul Markham

Back in the day there were more Whales in the ponds. People like Flynt, Hefner, Gold, Sullivan, Raymond, Desmond, Milton, Beate Uhse and loads more. Operating on a country by country basis mostly.

The Internet changed that and at first a few had the chance to make a lot of money by selling to the few countries with the Internet. Then it changed and the over saturation of suppliers wasn't matched by the growth in buyers.

America and Europe were already buying, growth in numbers were coming from countries without the money or ability to buy. The offline buyers had moved online and that source was largely played out.

Then Youporn was created and a huge spanner hit the works. People no longer had to buy their porn fix.

Thommy is convinced that 1 million buying at 0.0005 ($500) each is worth more than 1 million buying at 1-100 at $30 ($300,000). His 100 million was a mistake I'm sure.

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thommy

paul before you start this boring amateur stuff - get informed what a hit is and what i sell.

the problem is that you have so much no clue of this market makes it impossible to explain you anything.



loooool - give up you make yourself a clown.

how many speed boats do you think are daily sold IN INTERNET and how many penis pills?

btw. this enhancement products have a MUCH MUCH higher per user value than 20 $
usually the advertisers spend for the first sale around 50-60 € - some of them up to 150 JUST for the advertising (In the tier 1 countries) - in countries like indonesia or the philippines or other asian countries it is still around 10-15.

this is already more than the complete lifetimevalue of a user in the good old porn membership times. and as i said - enhancement stuff is not a very big part of the total revenue - they make maybe 7-8% of the total.

and is is indeed correct that click prices in a network like ours are not made from me or from the holy ghost. they are high because people can make good money if they have the right product and know how to advertise and this people do high bids.
porn membersites can not - and the NEVER could because their concept was the webmaster affiliate that takes the risk and most of them did it because they think that they get traffic for free (what is not the case).

but as you see we do not really need them. we can live much better with advertisers that are ABLE to pay good money.

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thommy

actually this number of 0,0005 per visito earning is a very very low number on a site with a lot of traffic from countries that are hard to monetize.

in tier1 a visitor of a site has a value of aproximately 0,001-0,003 US.
alone in our very small network we are talking here about 8-9 million unique visitors per day.

and now calculate that with the BILLIONS of unique users per day on all those free tubes, blogs, picture sites and even parked porn domains - than you have a small idea of the market size we are talking about.

in your time the complete online porn market per year was around 100 million and there was nothing else sold than that.

the revenue of all porn sites today - no matter if made with advertising or affiliate marketing of ALL products that are sold there NOW is approximately at 5000 million and growing.

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thommy

they do not have to buy as they get it for free from the producers and give them a share.

and they also have paid areas like pornhub.
but a paul markham would not be an attraction there - they can afford to work with
disney stars like bella thorne

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Paul Markham

So give us some links to the PORN sites you sell ad space on.



Show us the porn sites that can get such a great return they sell their traffic for 50-60 € - some of them up to 150


So you do sell ad space to the highest bidders.

Is that in the porn industry only and does it make more than selling paysite memberships?

You're constantly trying to justify black is white by including mainstream product advertising.


Everyone knows online advertising is huge in mainstream, but only for tangible products. Products given away for free have suffered.

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Paul Markham

Now you move the goal posts.

Where did you get those figures from?

Back them up with evidence, include offline porn as well.

And then read up on https://www.google.com/search?biw=13...Ug1CfwQ4dUDCAo

There's no dispute we serve billions today, but at your conversion rates of 0,001-0,003 there's very few sites with a lot of visitors that can convert at that rate. Most certainly not Tube sites where the bulk of the traffic is. Which is why they sell ads for a lower price than TGP sites used to.

You constantly tell us that affiliates have to be better because today it's harder. Adult King tells us the business is more competitive. And a lot more say it's harder to make a living today. So who is buying all this expensive traffic people sell? Not your secret traffic, you can direct us to your competitors traffic, or is that a secret as well?

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thommy

if you would be smart enough you would find out already by yourselfs and not only try to signup in my network as bakery ;-)

an I am saying that since we give it for free we make a lot more with simply showing ads around it.

paul i was running a huge and very successful membersite for more than 12 years.
i know how hard it is to get even one single buyer and as i started that side in 1999 i also know the numbers from this good old times you are talking about.

the expenditure to run a sich a website is HUGE - starting from fraud protection til customer care, content buys, affiliate system, servers, content delivery and much much more.
even with 2 million revenue per year there is not more than 8-10% of net profit left if you want to make it good. and there are not many membersites that make 2 million revenue - not in the good old times and also not now.

so don´t think that i don´t know about this market. because i know it MUCH better than you as i had actually the very first paysite on membership base in the german market - we´ve started one week before fundorado and if i would KNOW that they start i would rather promote them as to go through this B2C hell.

fundorado is still doing good - but the market is not big enough to keep that many of them alive. but the market is big enough for all the publisher sites when they do not focus on this little cake.

btw. the video market started to die already around 2000 when the first livecams came up. in all the time when i had membersites the usage was 80% on cams (wich we bought and sold flat also) and just 20% on videos and pictures. so in fact we paid too much for videos already than as it was never the reason why people signed up.

tell me why livecams are still here and bigger than ever before even when you can get them for free ? what did they do better as you did?
they are just smarter as you are and think further as you can ever think.
so do not complain the tubes or the market - complain your brain!

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thommy

i am sure that even YOU know that this numbers are not really existing anywhere.
the offline pornbiz was a black money biz - and because it was easy it was made by pimps with no clue of the market.

What are you trying to tell me? You worked as a drug farmer all your life?

did you ever calculate how much that is in a month when a site just have 100 k visitors per day ? and you would wonder HOW MANY tubes have A LOT MORE.

business is not communism - the best will have the most traffic and the others die.
it is as simple as that and it works like this in EVERY kind of biz.

and here is the logic that you don´t get.
if this biz would not make money there would not be such a competition.

and yes of course it is harder today because you can not make money when you are dumb . i never said anything else !

but that smart ones do not only make the same money as before - this money is still here and not even this money - it is MUCH MUCH MORE - but it goes into the hands of the smart, competitive, far-seeing, skilled and not in the hands of people with your views.

so if you want to discuss the biz - than discuss it on the reality of today and not on a long past era when a couple of idiots who had no name to lose bathed themselves in the champagne that rained from the sky. and when exactly these unprofessional idiots asked every one to become their competitor because they believed it was "infinitely" much of it there in the paradise.

if you know the offline business so well, then ask one of the half-dead guys from back then what it was like to open a new sexshop on the other side of the street.

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The Porn Nerd

The only "problem" I see with your business model - buying/selling "circle jerk" traffic or pushing dick pill ads on tubes etc - is that, eventually, advertisers will realize that this is just a giant circle jerk game. Sure they can convert once they get into the laws of big numbers - 100,000 hits here, $50,000 spent there buying 5 million clicks etc - but the margins are tiny and getting smaller all the time.

With adblockers, Google and others tightening their software to block annoying ads, etc I predict in 5 years or less those profiting from this circle jerk traffic will drop signicantly. Will it ever go away? No, not likely since there IS profit in it. But the cost to earn that profit will continue to go up as the companies that profit the most from these strategies continue to shrink.

Your game Thommy is based solely and strictly on huge numbers, mathematics and probabilities. That's awesome for the analytically and metric minded. But, in the end, only VERY large companies will be able to afford this kind of game where the basic investment is a minimum of 50k just to get any type of traction at all.

But, as you say, this is true of EVERY market. Those who work with Wal-mart will always insist everything is just dandy while the small community supporters of the local flower shop will bitch til they go out of business or settle for tiny scraps. So you know, good for you for working with the porn Wal-Marts of the world but your calculations don't really apply to us normal 'small business' types.

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thommy

you don´t seem to know about my business model so let me explain you my thoughts.

when i was starting trafficfabrik there have been only CPM networks out there and here i saw the problem.

CPM is a method that is completely based on performance - means: an advertiser wants to have as many clicks as possible and assumes that there are a few buyers in a big number.

additionally the CPM model is an open door so decrease quality because however prices are falling a publisher just have to add one more banner and ready is the banner farm.

this is why i was going CPC only and everybody was laughing at this time about this idea.

as i do have a quite huge number of own sites I did not need a lot of publishers and also no other network or RTB shit to have traffic enough to start.
right now we do have not more than 80 publishers and nearly ALL of them are big or running huge networks but 100% of them I know personally and they are following my vision.

my vision is that a user clicks banner not for accident - I want he clicks because he is interested. sure that leads to a much lower CTR but the quality of a click is much more valuable. i also do not want that people go away from a site just because they where tricked - a user can buy today, tomorrow or next month or next year - it does not matter - but to do that he have to come back.

the coalition for better ads rules have been in my network long before coalition for better ads was existing - and believe me they are even harder than theirs.

no 500 kb animations - not even animations that never stop.
no fake chats - no fake closing buttons - not even a yes-no on a banner or something what could be understood wrong is allowed.

so and now let´s resume what have happend in this last 7 years:

COM prices went down around 50-60%
my prices went up 500%

7 years ago the network was already closed for publishers and worked on invitation only.
now it is also closed for advertisers because it is already too much competition inside the network. I do allow clean advertisers what are promoting stuff that is not already over promoted. I actually do not need new advertisers because i rarely lose one.
we also need to keep in mind that the really big buyers would not buy even the very best traffic when the numbers are too small.
big mediabuying agencies would not even try to buy when they can not spend at least 2000-3000 euro per day (but better more) because to maintain and optimize big campaigns makes less effort than big campaign. and a GOOD mediabuyer will laugh out loud when you offer him this job for 5 or 6 thousand dollar per month.

we are mainly focusing the german speaking market but even when we are so limited and when not many of you guys know us - we are the fastest growing adult adnetwork on the planet. it is not very hard to grow from year 1 to year to 100% and even in year 3 to 4 50% are not really rare. we are growing 3-digit since 7 years.

i started in this biz as a webmaster and i owned paysites - i even had my own payment system - so I really know this biz from EVERY point of view. there is really NOTHING what I haven´t done yet - but i come originally from advertising and this is where I am best - and this is why I focus on that.
I know that it will ONLY work when ALL people involved are happy and not only the advertiser OR the publisher OR the network. the art in this biz is to keep the balance between them.

so if you talk about advertising networks you can completely exclude me here because I have a VERY different idea of that and go - as I always did - my very special own ways.

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Struggle4Bucks

But Paul can save, of course, the same and entire business he declared dead.... with his brilliant and unlimited creative mind (for autists... this is clearly sacasm):

So.... shitty ass producers.... start shooting those fake castings and lottery winner- scenes!!! It will be raining sales again! Owh man.... YES!!! The hotel cleaner! We have a whiner... I mean a winner!!!! Never thought of that one... how could i have been so uncreative!

Thank God Paul could have saved the industry......................................
.................................................. ................................
................ if he wasn't retired

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thommy

and look how fast the world reacted on his post

https://www.letmejerk.com/se/who-wan...naire&sort=pop

https://redporn.xxx/tubes/casting/

https://www.homepornking.com/tag/sex+toy+testing/

https://sss.xxx/cleaner/

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Struggle4Bucks

Are you saying Paul is not only a brilliant creative mind he also appears to be an important influencer???

thommy

more or less like a fashion guru that tells you the newest fashion trends from summer 1998

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Struggle4Bucks

Yeah the guy is amazing. He would put one finger in an ass and thus he could predict next years’ fashion trends...

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AdultKing

I can't decide if Paul believes what he writes or if he is just on a single minded trolling exercise.

(a) if he believes the stuff he writes then he's a fool.
(b) if he is making shit up and trolling and we reply then we are fools.

I try my best to ignore him. He's not a participant in the industry anymore and, regardless of the answer to the question posed above, he doesn't understand contemporary online practices.

Paul Markham

Thommy is claiming advertising the product make more money than selling the product. Even if he includes all Webcams, penis pills and paysites, etc advertising there's no way it can make more money than selling the product. If he was right Tubes would be producing their own content solely for the Tubes sites, paysites would be switching over to Tube sites not because they forced to but because there was more money in advertising.

Everyone knows that since Tubes came along the paysite model has taken a huge hit. Because you can't sell what's given away for free. His claim that there are more surfers online is wrong, not in countries that buy porn in the numbers needed.

Ad blockers and companies like Google will block more and more ads. Making sure more surfers install ad blockers is essential.

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The Porn Nerd

So you have found that balance where everyone is happy and profitable. Awesome! I do not speak German unfortunately so could not play in your market.

However, if you could PM me and show me, step-by-step, how to turn say a $500 weekly investment into profit I would be most interested.

So for us smaller guys to do media buying we really have to make a profit relatively quickly, not spend 20-50k on 'research' as we buy/lose, buy/lose then turn a small profit then try to scale.

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Paul Markham

The porn industry is far from dead and I've never claimed it is.



Shitty ass producers are very much the norm today, because the money they can earn.

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Paul Markham

So you agree, advertising the product make more money than selling the product. Which is why Tubes can afford to have their own content produced just for Tubes, large paysites are switching over to Tubes because advertising makes more money than selling. And if you stopped giving it away for free the advertising companies wouldn't survive. And the industry is making more money today than it was 12 years ago. Because we give it away for free.

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Paul Markham

No one so far has given average figures on porn traffic and I doubt if anyone will. What's the average CTR on porn traffic, what's the average conversion ratio on porn traffic, what's the average price a porn site gets for it's traffic?

If the conversion ratio is the same or similar to a porn video clip it has to be 1-36,000. Even at 1-10,000 and the price is $5 a 1,000, that's a cost of $180 to $50 per sale.

So the best you can expect is 10 sales for $500 the worse 10 sales for $180.

How many of those porn surfers click on an advert? These figures must exist, but so far no one has given accurate figures. Except Thommy with his 0.0005 per visitor which he promptly changed when I revealed the return.

The big guys, Mindgeek, do make a lot of money. Is it more than the money we all made back in the day?

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thommy

stop making a fool out of yourself.
you do not have a clue about this things so better shut up.

if one user is watching 10 videoclips and buys - even your numbers are already at 1:3600
because it is not the numbers of clips watched, not the numbers of page biews - it is the number of potential buyers that matters.


So the best you can expect is 10 sales for $500 the worse 10 sales for $180.

in average around 8-10% of visitors click on a banner. on sites with a lot of returning customers it might be a bit less but IF they click this click is much more valuable.

btw. i did not change my calculation - i just broke it down to a viewer of a single video.
and here you have to make a difference between a video watched 2 seconds or a virdeo watched over is whole length.

just because you are zapping through your TV programms does not make you a viewer on each channel you zapped through.

it is MUCH more - but mindgeek is not the adult internet. the millions of smaller sites together are even bigger in sum as mindgeek ist with thier 10 or 15 flagships.

and mindgeek is also not baes alone on tubes - they make money with their paysites (from wich they do have a few more than tubes).

with the traffic from their tubes they make MUCH more as they can do with ALL affiliates in sum - and as they know that they can also sell other products there they make everything profitable.

you, old man, just don´t know how this game works and you will never find it out because you'd rather resist the truth than accept it.

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AdultKing

No, I do not agree.

After two pages I have no idea what your point is.

My initial reaction is to think you are a fucking idiot.

My more considered reaction is that you're a complete fucking idiot.

But if you really believe what you type then you're a bit sad really.

You just type waffle, contradict yourself, make up things and pretend to be some all knowing oracle of the past with the foresight to understand contemporary and future business models.

Struggle4Bucks

Paul... you have me on your ignore list. Please.... ignore me!!!

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CurrentlySober

i like having a shitty ass...

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thommy

nothing is perfect and keeping balance is an ongoing process. but I think I do it quite good.

btw: the general market rules are similar in every market.

here you answer the question already for yourself because the people that do spend this money are the ones that you compete with.

no olympic sprinter will walk slower just to give the last one a chance to win.

the problem with 99% of all existing membersites is obvious:
the complete marketing concept is made for affiliate webmasters that mostly do not have the smallest clue of advertising because the do not really pay for the traffic they are dealing with.

away from that a affiliate webmaster will never have the really big numbers what would give him options to test things out. they always know what they have but they never know what they do not have.

this sort of affiliates is already replaced since years from people that do not even know how to set up a website because they are focused just on buying traffic and make it profitable.
but not even 1% of the membersite owners ever cared about their needs.
most simple things like clickid and postback integration is not existing in the affiliate programs. bannerfarms with completely untested banners are provided and landingpages
are not designed for the different traffic they are dealing with.

just think about the following:

there are thousands of webmasters out there that get a payout of 1000 dollars per month.
so bring this 1000 dollars in relation to the revenue they make for you or other programs.

to make money with mediabuys a one-man-show mediabuyer have to invest at least
20 or 30 thousand dollars per month to make 2000 or 3000 profit (so this is a very small one). now bring this 20 or 30 thousand in relation to the revenue you or other programms have to make with this little guy and ALL YOUR QUESTIONS are answered.

and the media buyer in this example is really not a big one.
there are many big media buying companies with a few hundert employed media buyers where each one have a budget of 100 k to spend.
do you see WHERE your market is and at wich point you missed it?

i know that a few affiliate programs are currently working to make up for these gigantic failures. but it will take a long time to find a connection to a seller market that has long since established itself and that doesn't care what products are made into money.
and there are many products that have a much higher lifetime value than a porn site.

consequently a rethinking will have to take place and site operators will have to open ways to increase the actual value of a customer, because only then they are able to compete.

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el_mago

This is the unfortunate, but necessary compromise of getting rid of the political lunatics... sifting through senile PM's posts

The Porn Nerd

Yes I get what you are saying and it proves one of my points: that the law of "big numbers" applies when it comes to media buying and, really, the product being sold does not matter. It could be porn or kitchen utensils.

But I highlighted what you wrote above as an example. I can think of many, many ways to make a $2000-$3000 profit without spending a dime (or very little) since that is a low (but good) achievable figure. If I was going to invest 20-30K in order to get that little amount I would rather spend it on content, more sites, my own traffic network, reviews, etc etc. Because at the end of all that I would actually HAVE something. With the media buy model 90% is 'wasted' expense. A lot to get a little, not much bang for your buck, etc.

Oh but I know what you will say! You can SCALE that 20-30k/$2000-$3000 profit, right? No not always. It's especially hard with paysites. And what it takes to do that is not always something, lifestyle-wise, a small webmaster wants to do (more employees, overhead, etc)

On a side note: I wonder if ALL content production suddenly STOPPED how long it would take for the tubes and ad networks to see a decline in traffic, views, revenue, etc? I am guessing, with over two decades of filmed content to rotate, the drop-off would be minimal. So does that signal an eventual end to content production?

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thommy

that´s more or less correct

and exactly here you see things wrong.

imagine you are a billionaire and you want to invest your money in something that is more profitable than stock market or anything else.
did you caclulate the REAL interest rate on that?

it is not 10% per month - so 120% interest per year.
it is MUCH more as this guys are playing again and again with the SAME money they have played the month before. so depend how much one will reinvest he will end up with such a huge profit as you can not even imagine or do in ANY other biz.

I know media buyers that have started with 10 k borrowed from the grandma and they play now with 100-200 k per month as they reinvested all in the first year and after that they reinvested the half of the profit.

there is no bigger biz around than that and this is why there is so many money in it.
ask a bank on what you can get 120% or more profit - they will not have an answer.
but ask a billionaire if he will invest on 20% and you know how to make money in this biz he will shit his money on you - always assuming that you know the business, the tools and the market



YOU do not have to scale or invest nothing because you are far too late to learn
this tricky biz and as you need your time to maintain a product you do not have the time to learn it.

all what you have to do is to give this people who are doing this biz already the options they need and THEY will invest and not you.

there is so much content around and it does not matter if it is old or new.
the number of content producers have multiplied in the past 10 years.
and those are the ones that are producing already for this market. they do not even need shops or something like that as they have a few 100 tubes buying a few 100 videos from them month by month - they just do not pay 50 dollars for a scene - maybe they pay 2 or 3.

i actually spend for licences every year around 100-150 thousand euro - and i am just a small clown -how much do you spend with your paysites ?

so no - this argument does not work as the biz is much too big already and everything is here. it is also not a big problem for the big tubes to open their own productions and resell the same content later to their own competitors (what is actually also existing already) you can either swim with the stream or wait til the stream comes back. but this will not happen.

i know that does not sound too nice but true words are mostly not nice and nice words are mostly not true.

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Paul Markham

Yes the same rules apply, if you give the product away to support advertising the return isn't going to be as good as selling the product.

If you made a profit from your traffic spend, investing even more is easy. $500 a month could be $5,000, which could be $50,000. And you would have more money to invest in more content, sites, etc. The problem is paying enough for the content to make the traffic profitable. A small number of companies can do that.

The problem has always been the porn industries obsession in traffic being the answer to everything. We see that here with someone saying Thommy's 404 page gets more traffic than me content stores. Who cares how much traffic one gets if it buys nothing?

So far no one has come up with figures on the CTR, conversion ratios and price sits get for traffic. But I guaranty it's not enough to pay for content production and a higher BW charge. Because an industry that boasts a $2,000 return on a $20,000 investment isn't making enough on the billions of hits it gets.

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The Porn Nerd

No worries, I am a New Yorker and I am used to not nice words. LOL Besides, I am just trying to learn here so thank you for your responses.

But I would then ask: how does this person with 10K from Grandma do this from scratch with little to no knowledge of the game? He would burn through that 10k in a couple weeks before he learned enough/failed enough to get good at it.

I understand what you are saying but, as always, I only really care about how MY BUSINESS can grow, and I do not see a way our business models could merge strategies. If I wanted to be a media buyer pushing dick pills and cams then maybe I would care more but that is not the life I want to live. I want to sell something, not jiggle margins like a day trader. But hey, to each his own.

PS: I'm not a billionaire.

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