How long and how do you make minimum wage in adult today?

There is still a lot of money in porn, is there as much as there was or would be if we were selling it as the norm or giving it away for free. Would you be making more if your porn had to be bought, wasn't pirated and on free tubes?

Thommy is right people will watch free porn and some will purchase it 1-36,000. Where as the ratio on TGPs was 1-200.

Almost a decade, writing mostly for adult sites. Still going strong. Let me know if you need my services. Cheers.

no - that´s actually not what i am saying.
there might be users buying also porn but porn is inside a consumers budget the smallest part he spends money for.

just check your own budget ad see how much would be left at the end when you would be a porn buyer. it is not really much.

but there is much more in the rest of his budget and this is what we are grabbing.
no matter if this is dating or a real whore - if it is phonesex or penis enlargement. some even pay for getting rid of the porn addiction and we offer the ones that want to sell it via ads.

so in fact we do not really care much whatkind product someone wants to promote as long as it is legal - we are not in the risk - if someone is smart enough to sell it to porn users - fine - if not another will be. if this other, smarter one is someone that sells porn - also fine - but here we come to the fact that there are no pornsites out there that have the right tools for that. this means that mediabuyers will prefer to promote the products that ARE profitable that that HAVE such tools.
product owners will not be able to buy the traffic from us because it is too expensive for them.

porn might bring a lot of surfers - and this is the reason why it is used as a magnet. it is the same as news are used to bring servers. it is not for selling the news it is for selling something completely else.
i mean the very best examples are all this so called "influencers" that are spreading their free videos all over youtube and make the money with ads or recommendations about things that have nothing to do with this videos.

paul did not realize this new marketing world. he does not even have the smallest clue HOW big online marketing is today and how many people make millions with methods he have never heard about.

if paul sees you are drinking champaign he will tell you it is water because he simply does not know the difference.

i am not sure if you ever read what i write or just have the addiction to throw bullshit in a thread.

how long do you think an advertisers would pay for advertising when he have to pay 0,10 cent for a click and have a sale on every 36.000 click?

the user does not come to a tube to buy this video - he comes to watch it for free.
he pays with his COMPLETE purchasing power and not only with the 0,29% of the purchasing power he possibly spends for porn.

you are comparing apples with coconuts as you try to calculate conversion rates on a TGP posting.
IF you do the same with tubes you would see that the result is much better on a tube.
just because a tube have a few million users per day it does not mean that they are watching ALL videos there.
in average they are visiting 5-7 pages and if the variation of ads on this 5-7 pages is good they do at least ONE click.

so from our point of view we have a conversion rate of 1:5 - 1:7 with a few 100 million users per day. if this user is buying any kind of product after 100 clicks he have done - he is already more valueable as he ever was before.

if you would finally learn to calculate and KNOW how to compare numbers you would not talk such a bullshit.

Thommy is right, online porn has become a lot more professional. To make money as an affiliate, publisher, or product owner, you have to be a professional.

But I think Paul Markham has a point in this discussion too, and some people are quick to dismiss whatever he says.

This hasn't come up on this conversation, but the tube model still relies on using stolen content and DMCA being weak. Tube site owners don't like to talk about this, but their whole business relies on the weak DMCA copyright mechanism, letting them add full-length videos without really having to be afraid of anything.

I know some people who are talented, running profitable affiliate sites. They tried to build tube sites with only legal content. They failed. They couldn't get enough ad revenue without full-length vids. The visitors, hence the engagement metrics, hence search engine algorithms all favor the tubes that are full of stolen full-length videos.

Tubes are piggybacking off quality content being produced for OTHER CHANNELS. Tubes get the content for free (affiliate videos, stolen videos), then use the ad space next to the videos for ad networks and cam sites. This is not a sustainable model. It can work for 5 years, 10, maybe 15, as long as people keep giving them videos in hope of some return, and the others fail to enforce copyright.
Shitty mass produced $1 nonexclusive videos are good for filler content, but they won't make a tube popular and keep the visitors coming back.

There might be some exceptions, big tubes who can live off their brand names now, or even produce some quality videos. But for most tubes, the things above apply.

If you look at the bigger picture, piracy has always been profitable. Pirate sites = making other people's paid content available to the public for free.
Torrent trackers and file sharing sites also make a huge profit. Just look at Kim Dotcom.
Are torrent trackers / file sharing sites that different from tubes? They are somewhat different, but very similar in their business model. Guess what, ad networks' and cam sites' ads are also all over those other pirate sites.

Can you imagine how profitable it would be to create tubes with full-length Hollywood movies, and sell the ad space next to them? You could make millions. It's a great business model. But you can't make one, because it's illegal, it will get you in jail. The copyright laws ARE enforced in that space.

Something being profitable & being operated professionally does not mean it's a sustainable business model. Lots of scams (eg. spamming, card banging) are run by smart and professional people, but that doesn't make them right or make their business models the future of their industries. (Not saying that tubes are a scam.)

All that said, I have nothing against tubes, and not accusing anyone of anything. This is just how I see things. I understand the current situation in adult, and work with it. I think media buying is awesome and I admire people working in it. I might even give it a try. Thommy's posts are some of the best on GFY.

I just don't think it's right to call profiting off piracy / relying on weak copyright laws the future of adult business.

thommy schooled markham in this thread. No surprise to anyone but markham tbh. Good posts thommy - I always take note of your biz posts, and good to see this place getting back to a venue where there are more of those.

I guess I hould also thank paul... he may talk absolute shit 99% of the time, but at least his threads he continually posts where he attempts to trash the industry today almost always lead to solid informative posts from those who know what they are doing.

As I have said over and over, the ONLY way to live out Paul Markham's dream is to pass tougher, stronger laws that actually get enforced. The UK Age Verification statute is a step in the right direction but not strong enough.

And since no politician is going to advocate for stronger copyrights in Adult the ONLY way to get them to move on this issue is to bring up access. In other words: it's too easy for people under 18 to watch porn for free so we need to make adults pay for it again. Further, too much free porn is eroding the moral fabric of our societies, it would be argued, regardless of the age of who watches it. RESTRICTIONS MUST APPLY!

"But tubes are located in non-US territories where such laws do not apply!" Indeed - so do big Hollywood movies get pirated all over the world and the MPAA can do nothing about it? Yes - and no.

It's all about reduction, not elimination. Will there always be free porn? Yes - until the above happens, and even when/if it does a smart surfer will always know where to go to get his (free) porn fix. But for the 95% of humans who are too lazy, too law abiding, too "moral" or too ignorant, they will end up complying with age verifications, pay walls, etc. The good ol' days are back!

Any other discussions, fascinating as these are, are just verbal masturbation. So you can either play ball in a rigged game (as I and many others do) or walk away and do something else for a living.

I never said that things are fair or without problems.
you can do the free site biz in a legal or in an illegal way - same as you can do it with EVERY biz.


this is something that i see as a problem also.
and here we do not even talk about "stolen" content.
many tubes do have the tube rights and give legal access to embed codes.
and sure - they do´t do that to do this ones a favor who do not have the same options - they want something in return.

but i can see many sited that try to get rid of the embedded player and server the videos in their own player. I can tell you here that MOST of this people that do that do not even know that this is illegal.

but if we're talking about those who do it intentionally and consciously we actually do not talk about the biz I am talking about.

I am against this people same as I am against those that are stealing complete layouts, textwork and other work of publishers.

i can also tell you that there are a few networks and affiliate programs that are reacting and acting when things like that are known.
sure we can not go after those guys when they are sitting in russia, china, india or wherever - but we can cut them the pay-flow and this is what I am doing together with this networks and affiliate programs as soon as i find it out.

90% of all who try it fail - same as 90% who try to run membersites will fail.
we are talking here about 2 things where you need different skills.
if you want to run a tube site you must be perfect in traffic generation - if you want to run a membersite you must be perfect in finding affiliates and hold customers.

technical skills alone will not bring you anywhere - no matter what you are doing to make money.

the "good old times" paul talks about had the absolute same sale base.
TGPs and sites with preview videos. but they where only made to sell the original.

what we see today is something complete different.
the tubes today do not target the porn addicted or the "professional porn users" that know each name of each model - those users representing less than 1% of the tube visitors..
we are targeting the mass - even women and others that are watching porn from time to time.

this users we are targeting will spend money for everything but for porn.

I think you are overestimating this problem as this kind of tubes do not have the reach
the good made ones have. they are taking maybe 3-5% of the total cake.
they will also not have the success as they get so many DMCA complaints that they will never reach a high position in Google.

the good news are, that the producer market reacted already.
since everybody can buy tube material for 1 dollar it is not worth to steal it.
tubes with legal content getting more and more and they will dominate the market.

apart from that amateurs, membersites, download sites and even camsites give so much free content, because they found out that it is cheaper than paying 50% or more to affiliates. some of them even pay to get their free videos into the tubes.
just look how many submitting services are offered here at GFY.

producers just have to accept that thew can not sell to 2 or 3 customers anymore but to a few 1000.

again - tubes are not competing with this kind of users.
the users tubes are targeting do not even know names.
apart from that it is done - it happens. the big tubes like pornhub do have a paid area
and sell there this outstanding stuff to the few % that might like it.

and yes they use hollywood names for that:

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/be...ar-1202165798/

some people thought to sell fax machines is a sustainable business model.
every product have a product life cycle (corporate evolution)- there are even different mathematical formulas to calculate it.

i have never claimed that the present status quo will be eternal. that's exactly what's exciting about business, constantly reassessing these things and carrying your ship to where the water will go tomorrow.

but one thing is clear:
everywhere where there are masses, there is the possibility of financing through advertising. therefore the superbowl can also be financed through advertising and the world championship in 100-yard-sack-hopping not.

and i know already now that paul will veto exactly here because he will say that the broadcasting rights are also sold and not advertised. that is completely wrong because they are sold as advertising environment

I would like to make it clear here again that I am not in favor of criminals and thieves or my business built on it.

if you go to our website and try to find the button where you can register as a publisher, then you will be wasting time, because there is nothing but a contact form. simply because i don't see myself as a mother who feeds thieves and thieves on her breasts.

regarding the media buy:
If you can wait to 2020 and you are in travel mode - I will do a few workshops next year
in europe - just don´t have the dates and places fix yet.


I agree 100% - and that does not only fit for adult - it fits for ANY KIND of biz.

I want you think about the following:

image this surreal idea:

IF it would be possible to produce a car one time - after that everyone can press a button and copy it with no costs, no efford, no human work - do you think that people would buy cars?

or would it not make more sense to copy a car for each human with a few ads on it and make an industry from that?

HOW do you want to prevent USERS to copy content and make their own tube without advertising just on their harddisc?
how many videos does ONE human need for that?
even if he watches 3 full length videos every day of his life he would need need around
50.000 of them what is not even a tenth of what a big tube provides.

a tube just makes this hard disc unnecessary and with the adspots around it creates an industry what is the BASE of ALL OTHER industries in the world.

you guys are only mad because you can SEE that. but what you can NOT SEE are the numbers of stolen videos that are PRIVATELY exchanged.
if you would see THIS number you would realize that tubes are the MUCH MUCH smaller problem and advertising on free pornsites did not destroy but save the porn industry - even when the income flow have changed to a more indirect payment.

worldwide there are some roads under construction which have a technology to produce electricity when cars driving over them.

so toll roads can be turned into free roads and the more they are used the more profitable they become.

shit is not shit - you can grow trees with shit

I want you think about the following:

Try to respond to what I wrote and the points I made instead of that stream of what the fuck you just spit out.

Cars? Roads? Growing trees with shit? Dude what are you smoking? I was talking about passing laws, regulations and filters to endless free porn and your response was incoherent nonsense. Speak directly, not metaphorically as I have zero clue what the fuck you're going on about.

Oh - and I am not mad. LOL I am not one of those "you guys" like Paul Markham. I work with tubes and have done so since I began, at a time when EVERYONE was cursing them. So I, for one, DO play ball and have had a nice decade-long business because of it. I am a realist and therefore I am successful.

so you are actually talking about making banks stealth, right ?

and ? did it work?
are no banks robbed anymore?

you will NEVER be able to get the mafia out of the game as longs as there is money

UK avs law? shall i laugh?

As you know we had this laws in Germany much earlier than them and what they actually did was to make this biz bigger as it have been before. with just 2 differencies:

1. the webmasters went out of germany and the german law enforcement
2. they do not pay tax in germany

and as many of them learned the advantages of that, some of them are using the full "i give a shit on anybody".

so no it did not work and it did not make the rules fairer.

but even with all that circumstances the german market is one of the most beneficial markets in the world.

you can spend the whole year weeding weeds instead of sowing and reaping - or you accept that part of your harvest is destroyed by parasites.

you must not forget that we are moving in a biz that is outlawed all over the world. from the point of view of these parasites and any executive on this planet, they are the flu of the cancer that we represent.

i want to say this part a little clearer if you can't see the equations.

piracy was a much bigger topic in the so called "good old times"
megauplad - emule - and much much more was really popular in that time and it was not even clear if that is legal or illegal.

but your memebership business worked.

now AFTER all this really popular are all gone your business model does NOT work anymore.

so don´t you think it have to do with the biz-model ?
a basic law of logic says that the most obvious reason is usually the right one

The big movie studios would sue a site into the ground, porn can't afford to so the Tubes win. That's the way life is now.

Would we make more money if we went back to selling porn instead of giving so much away to sell ad space?

Thommy lives in a world where he can spin this shit.

Better laws are required. When it was only shops any adult could access porn all he had to do was walk into the shop. Children were turned away by the shop owner not the parents. Today no child is stopped from watching porn and no site owner does anything about it, maybe a spot in prison would help them think about it.

Porn shops didn't need to display hardcore porn in the window, but people still walked in and bought. If we were at the level of free porn we had in 1998 would as many still buy as they do today of would millions more buy? Every day.

We can't do nothing about it, we're not rich enough to sue, not powerful enough to get governments behind us. So we have to do whatever we can.

Could you pick up sites to sell to the end user if those sites could earn more without you? Then could you afford to build your own site with your own money, which 10,000s did before tubes killed so many sales?

I can't believe you guys think government regulation would actually help the adult industry.