Why does my old site convert better? - GoFuckYourself.com

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 11:10 AM

I run two paysites:

First (older) site:
Two years old, based on 2 girls, preview area
http://www.gothicamateur.com

Second (newer) site:
6 months old, based on 9 girls, tour
http://www.blood-dolls.com
(less traffic)

The first site is doing about 3x the sales of the second one, sometimes better. In the time that the new site makes $1,000, the old one gets $2,000 in new signups and $1,000 in rebills. (Though with our sites, a lot of "new" signups are repeat customers, so its hard to track.) The older site also gets about 50% more traffic than the newer one.

Do you think the different ages of the sites (more rebills and repeat/loyal customers) and the higher traffic is enough to account for the difference, or is the newer site converting poorly? I'd like to get conversions up, especially on the new site, and would like to know what I can do but wait for it to build up more of a loyal audience. Any thoughts?

Phil21 · 09-09-2002, 11:13 AM

I think using "blood dolls" as a name as opposed to gothic-anything would turn me the hell off if I was looking for goth chicks.

But, I guess I'm not your target customer either. Something about that name just makes me turned off.

could that be it? People thinking "damn, I'm not a sick motherfucker!"

*shrug*

-Phil

will-o'-the-wisp · 09-09-2002, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phil21
I think using "blood dolls" as a name as opposed to gothic-anything would turn me the hell off if I was looking for goth chicks.

But, I guess I'm not your target customer either. Something about that name just makes me turned off.

could that be it? People thinking "damn, I'm not a sick motherfucker!"

*shrug*

-Phil

I'll second that

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 11:20 AM

"Gothic" anything as a name tends to turn-off actual goths. Unsurprisingly, many people don't like labels applied to them, and see a name that explicitly refers to the label as fake. Would well-to-do people go to a restaurant called "Rich People"? ;)

So, in terms of going for actual goths, I think "Blood Dolls" is better than a generic name with "Goth" in it. A lot of our audience is more mainstream, though, so you may have a point there.

In general, I think the name works. It is a brand of its own, not a generic combination of a couple of obvious words. Also, among goth and vampire fans, the phrase has a meaning that is perfect for our market... yet its not a common enough phrase to be too generic.

grumpy · 09-09-2002, 11:59 AM

I think your first website looks much better. The second site has a white background, start by changing that into a black background. Gives it a much more mystique look.

thechink · 09-09-2002, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grumpy
I think your first website looks much better. The second site has a white background, start by changing that into a black background. Gives it a much more mystique look.

I'll second that.

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 12:04 PM

I think the newer site has a much better design, and a cleaner look. The older site is more cluttered, which works okay, but wouldn't be appealing to new viewers, I'd think. The white background would be major work to change, and is part of the fresher, more mainstream feel of the site.

It's something to think about, but I'd certainly want more than one opinion on that before going for such a major revamp with potentially tiny results. Does anyone else think that putting the site on a black background would actually help conversions?

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 12:09 PM

Hmm...

I have two basic replies so far, each "seconded"...

1. Change the background. This would require pretty much a complete redesign, given that much of the site is graphical, not text. Also, what worked for this site on white wouldn't translate well to black, so I would basically be starting the design from scratch.

2. Change the name. This would require as complete a redesign, and in fact a new domain name, re-branding, modification of all my other sites, and so forth. Basically put me back at square one.

Any ideas that don't require me to re-do virtually everything I have done since February? ;) Is there anything inherent about the tour I have that makes it less appealing? Or more importantly, that would lead to lower conversions... Do I use too many, or the wrong sorts of samples? That sort of thing. The help so far is appreciated, but hopefully there is some stuff I can improve, rather than building a whole new site.

SexyMarie · 09-09-2002, 12:11 PM

In my humble opinion (I'm always struggling with my own designs...):

First thing... the colour. For me goth=black, not white...

Second thing... for me your first site is much easier to navigate with the menu on the left.

And with the second site I noticed strange thing... When I clicked on some links and clicked 'back' to the main preview page the browser resized automatically to 800x600 (I think).

BTW, I really like your style of photography

Backov · 09-09-2002, 12:19 PM

Some quick things:

Main page is cluttered looking at 1280x1024

NEVER EVER resize my browser! - I close sites that take it upon themselves to resize me.

I think the tour looks great, not sure what I would do to improve it.. Here's one thing however:

Have you thought that the only reason your older site is converting better is because it's getting better quality traffic? Older sites tend to get more SE traffic than newer ones. That combined with the fact that it's getting MORE traffic could be the difference.

Cheers,
Backov

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 12:20 PM

Thanks for the feedback, Marie...

The site is not trying to be hardcore goth. It is trying to have its own style. Most goths do their own thing, and few are like the stereotype. Also, by softening the whole goth thing, we hope to have broader appeal. I mean, putting up two identical sets every week, in the same style, would get boring. Goth is a starting point, not a limitation. That plays into the name not saying "goth" or "dark".

The idea of the white is to have a clean site, with its own feel, not to succumb to stereotype. Also, darker photos have more impact on a brighter backdrop... black on black isn't exactly high-contrast.

As for navigation... I wanted a design without a frame. The frame has worked well for GothicAmateur.com, but all sorts of people tell me not to have one. So, for Blood Dolls, I ditched the frame. Is the Blood Dolls preview site that hard to navigate?

I guess I think we are getting away from the things that really affect conversions. I am more curious as to whether people think the age of the other site accounts for the difference in sales. Any opinions on that, on a more strategic, less nitpicky level?

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Backov
Some quick things:

Main page is cluttered looking at 1280x1024

NEVER EVER resize my browser! - I close sites that take it upon themselves to resize me.

I think the tour looks great, not sure what I would do to improve it.. Here's one thing however:

Have you thought that the only reason your older site is converting better is because it's getting better quality traffic? Older sites tend to get more SE traffic than newer ones. That combined with the fact that it's getting MORE traffic could be the difference.

Cheers,
Backov

Thank you. This is some of the most constructive stuff so far...

Which page looks cluttered at that resolution? I have my monitor set at that, and the site looks okay to me, so I am not sure exactly what you have in mind.

As for the resize... the tour looks kind of nappy at high resolutions. Do you think the annoyance factor is worse, or how it looks with all that white space around it? I am open to reassessing the pros and cons of the two options.

Yes, I think better traffic is part of the conversions of the older site. It gets more SE traffic, and obviously has a lot more bookmarkers after two years. What I wonder is whether that sort of thing accounts for all of the difference, or only a small part.

Backov · 09-09-2002, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gothweb

Thank you. This is some of the most constructive stuff so far...

Which page looks cluttered at that resolution? I have my monitor set at that, and the site looks okay to me, so I am not sure exactly what you have in mind.

By "main page" I mean the first page you hit, the index.. Bear in mind I am not a graphic artist, but some rules of design I always like to follow in interfaces are some of the "alignment" rules.. Ie, if you have a button at the bottom, at least one of it's edges would align with something (vertically). This works with lots of types of elements..

Your main page has 5 (visible when I open the page) elements, all different sizes and unconnected. I think it would work if there wasn't more stuff under the "Warning" box.. Makes it look, as I said, cluttered.. Just MO.. A professional designer might be able to expand on that some more.

Quote:

As for the resize... the tour looks kind of nappy at high resolutions. Do you think the annoyance factor is worse, or how it looks with all that white space around it? I am open to reassessing the pros and cons of the two options.

I personally think it looks fine at higher res. Take a look at your traffic stats, and compare where each site is getting its traffic from. You'll probably find that it does account for the difference in sales.

As for Blood Dolls (the name), I like it just fine, I know what it means, and I thought it was a great name for a goth site. Most goths will agree I'd think.

Cheers,
Backov

grumpy · 09-09-2002, 12:38 PM

I dont know if you can do it...but maybe switch the sites for a day or three and see if the signup ratio changes then. If it doesnt you know its the traffic. If it does you know its the site.

fnet · 09-09-2002, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gothweb
Hmm...

2. Change the name. This would require as complete a redesign, and in fact a new domain name, re-branding, modification of all my other sites, and so forth. Basically put me back at square one.

Any ideas that don't require me to re-do virtually everything I have done since February? ;) Is there anything inherent about the tour I have that makes it less appealing? Or more importantly, that would lead to lower conversions... Do I use too many, or the wrong sorts of samples? That sort of thing. The help so far is appreciated, but hopefully there is some stuff I can improve, rather than building a whole new site.

It might be possible to rebrand the site by shifting "blood dolls" to mean the girls. IOW, give the site itself a less visceral title, but maintain the true recognition.

On a side note, seeing as you are tuned into goth culture, are you planning to make the site more interactive? Are the diaries publicly visible?

The clickpath of your samples isn't obvious enough. Tiny off to the bottom "click heres". While the tilted, shadowed portraits are really nice looking, they look more like a splash than a gallery.

Define your audience. If they are a 273 pound, 46 yo male living on the old farm in Kansas, deal with it. If that's not what you want...

Jak · 09-09-2002, 01:34 PM

A few things...

Blood-Dolls is a better name than Gothic Amateurs, in my humble opinion. I come from an industrial\goth background, and I even cringe to have to say that as it puts that categorization onto it. If I'm looking for goth chicks I think twice about any site named "Gothic" anything. Blood Dolls, Suicide Girls, SpookyLinks, etc. Those are great names.

Anyway, as for the Blood Dolls site itself...

First off I don't care for the browser resize. I LOATHE any site that takes it upon itself to resize my browser. I use a high res on my monitor, and every time a site resizes my stuff every new window opened after that is sized the same, and that irritates the hell out of me. I have to resize the damned thing before I close it to prevent that. Please say no to screwing with other people's comfort zones.

Now, once I resize the thing, the buttons end up WAY at the top and bottom, all spread out, with the main frame smack in the middle of the page. There's a hell of a lot of white space between the nav buttons and the main section:

I would recommend taking the whole of it and confining it to a table that's the size you want. It would all stay together no matter what the resolution of the browser window.

OK with that said, it took me about 10 seconds to find the actual button I needed to use to join the site. That sounds lame but it's important. The JOIN button is your target. You have to show people where it is or they won't even see it. Just like the word "of" in that genius test that was posted some time ago (http://board.gofuckyourself.com/show...=genius+ test), the word "Join" seems to elude people as well. As cheesy as it seems, flash it with a GIF. Don't let them leave without their eyes seeing it at least once.

That "And + More" button on the top nav section? Link it up to your Join page.

The "Blood Dolls" logo at the top left? Link it up to your Join page.

Rename "Main Area" to "Members Area". I clicked it thinking it would take me to a main section where I could see some stuff, and was presented with a login, a 404, and a popup. Sure, pop the authenticate login, but if it's a cancel or bad login from there, take them to... you guessed it... the Join page. Right now, someone hits that button and gets a popup window featuring "EVERY OTHER SITE BUT BLOOD-DOLLS".

The surfer's thoughts: "hmmm... I guess that's the main area. Hey what's this link?" and you've lost them.

Your tour is too long. What are the figures? For every page of your tour you lose something like 50% of everyone who's viewing it? Your tour should be just that... a tour. A tour needs a tour guide. A tour doesn't usually let people wander off all over the place on their own. Your Blood Dolls tour does. And guess what? They'll get lost. And cry. And go home.

Those are my thoughts. I love your photography and I hope some of what I said makes sense.

Jak

Backov · 09-09-2002, 01:54 PM

I agree with everything Jak just said. That's what I meant when I said a professional designer would have more input - there it was, heed it.

Cheers,
Backov

Mr.Fiction · 09-09-2002, 02:02 PM

Blood Dolls is a good name.

BV · 09-09-2002, 02:05 PM

Well I'm not into Goth and don't know much about it;
But:

I would customize your ccbill joinpage with some graphics like you did on your older site and see if that helps. IMO personalized join pages = good.

Also I agree with the above comments,
especially the one about making your JOIN links more visible.

These 2 things will be very easy to do without any major reconstruction.

Cheers,
BV

tree · 09-09-2002, 02:09 PM

the white background doesn't look as "goth"

o ya and i would stick that back up there:

Que? · 09-09-2002, 02:10 PM

If your site is of some interest i would not worry if i lost the fish the first time . Theyll come back and circle some more but still make it easy for them or they feel stupid and stressed.

The word blood on white makes me feel a little dizzy. Seen to many insides of emergency rooms i guess.....

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 02:27 PM

Jak, your advice is very helpful. I can see I have a lot to do, and it looks like your advice will really get me started. I appreciate everyone's help. Hopefully I can answer a lot of these concerns soon.

Supercharged · 09-09-2002, 02:40 PM

We do over 100 designs a year, and while it doesn't happen often, it does happen...

Sometimes we replace a retro 90's design with gaudy clashing colors, spinning logos and blinking text, with a sweet clean design and it doesn't convert as well...

The bottom line is... the bottom line, thats why alot of the bigger companies will contract out 5 designers for one pay site, test them all and keep the one that converts the best or none of them if the old one did better...

Changing for the sake of change is not always a good thing...

If it aint broke dont fix it :o)

RogerV · 09-09-2002, 02:56 PM

I notice you have more banners & buttons on http://www.blood-dolls.com
which distracts and confuses the surfer plus you need to focus more on getting them to sign up then giving them more to tours to surf thru.
they start to lose interest because most of it is an impulse buy

There really is no ryme or rythim to it we have sites that look bad that convert better then sites that I think look great
thats why i always focus on the deal or the trial.
Less text more pics pointing to join .

The surfer has been banged around enough already from Pop to pop unless you got it first of the search engine or by mailers
so most of the time they've seen enough. so focus more on getting them to the join page.

RogerV · 09-09-2002, 02:58 PM

Just read JAK post and I agree

also forgot to mention this use action words for join button
sometimes people need to be told what to do.
Specially if its a Newb Surfer who normally are the ones to join faster.

action words
Like: Start here, Instant access, Join now, click here to join etc.

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 08:10 PM

I have cleaned up a few things. The join links are now animated, and should draw more attention. I also made the members area link more clear. In doing so, I also made some of the text clearer.

Also, I got rid of the resize, and made the tour pages so they fit better on 800 x 600 displays. They also look cleaner on larger screens, now. I hope that bit is less annoying now.

The entry page is cleaned up some. I still have some outgoing banners, but they are less prominent, and the overall layout is cleaner. The only link likely to draw people elsewhere is to our other site. (I also added a somewhat over-obvious second chance to ENTER HERE.)

Other stuff...

RogerV:
Our join links all say "Join Now". As for the sell... I want the quality of our content to sell, not just the price. My goal is to present the content in a way that doesn't detract from it. So a clean design is important to me.

Tree: I have been goth for more than a third of my life, and I am happy with the white background. ;) Seriously, though, I use the white to make it clear we're not so goth that normal people won't like it. I have enough black sites.

BV: I like to idea of a customized CCBill signup page for this site. I haven't gotten to it yet, but I will. Thanks.

Thanks to everyone, in fact. Constructive criticism is a great thing, and I appreciate your time and honesty. I hope it is coming together better, thanks to your help.

tree · 09-09-2002, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gothweb
Tree: I have been goth for more than a third of my life, and I am happy with the white background. ;) Seriously, though, I use the white to make it clear we're not so goth that normal people won't like it. I have enough black sites.

just trying to help captain morality...dont get offended...i didnt question your gothieness. dont go re-painting your nails on my account.

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 08:24 PM

Heh. I know you were trying to help... I wasn't offended. It's helpful input, it's just something I have thought about and am happy with.

tree · 09-09-2002, 08:26 PM

im just drunk and bustin your balls

i like the site a lot goth chicks are hot as fuck

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tree
im just drunk and bustin your balls

i like the site a lot goth chicks are hot as fuck

Heh. Thanks.

On an unrelated note, I can see I really have to make a custom signup page for Blood Dolls. The old site converts sign-up page traffic 1:12, and the new one converts sign-up traffic 1:46. Clearly I need to fix that signup page.

tree · 09-09-2002, 08:39 PM

ya i agree the purple doesn't jive with the rest of the site...the surfers wang goes down when theres a page without nakkid girls on it

BV · 09-09-2002, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gothweb

Heh. Thanks.

On an unrelated note, I can see I really have to make a custom signup page for Blood Dolls. The old site converts sign-up page traffic 1:12, and the new one converts sign-up traffic 1:46. Clearly I need to fix that signup page.

RogerV · 09-09-2002, 09:11 PM

I really think you should focus on making the join now stand out because i over looked it.

If I didn't catch it right away most surfers won't but then again thats just my

I've helped people make there site convert %50 better.
Because we have already done it all. we have been doing Paysites since 1996. that has always been our main focus. we tweak sites all the time till we hit the jack pot. Trial and error

I guess its one of those situations where you need to find out for yourself good luck. I can't wait to tell you i told you so

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 09:23 PM

RogerV: I know you're right. Making the Join links more visible will always be better. I will work to make it as obvious and inviting as possible. More than I've done now will take a more serious rework, but I will get to it.

I set-up a new join page for Blood Dolls. I haven't linked it yet, as there's a lot of pages to link from. The URL for it is http://www.blood-dolls.com/signup/ I was wondering if that looks good to you guys, and if it's loading a slow as death for you too...

RogerV · 09-09-2002, 09:39 PM

I think the join page looks fine the only thing i would do is move the submit Order above the IP address if you can.

and maybe offer a trial for less. If you feel secure with your exclusive content they won't cancel. surfers feel a little more comfortable joining if the know they can check the site out for a cheap price something under $5 for 5 days.

try everything out its all about trial and error. there really is no other way.

gothweb · 09-09-2002, 09:58 PM

I am not sure whether I am able to modify everything about the layout of that page, especially the things you mention. I will look into it, though.

I currently offer a trial to our other site. I tend to test things on one site at a time, rather than jumping in all at once. The test still needs some more time before I add a trial to Blood Dolls. I have been thinking about it, though.

Mr.Fiction · 09-09-2002, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gothweb

Heh. Thanks.

On an unrelated note, I can see I really have to make a custom signup page for Blood Dolls. The old site converts sign-up page traffic 1:12, and the new one converts sign-up traffic 1:46. Clearly I need to fix that signup page.

When you're talking about your join page conversions, do you mean the ratio of people that get to the CC Bill signup page to the number who submit the form, or the ratio of people that get to the CC Bill signup page to those who submit the form and are approved by CC Bill?

cheekycherry · 09-10-2002, 03:02 AM

Black background needed.

mGreg · 09-10-2002, 03:24 AM

blood-dolls does turn me off abit, and black backgound would look more goth

gothweb · 09-10-2002, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction

When you're talking about your join page conversions, do you mean the ratio of people that get to the CC Bill signup page to the number who submit the form, or the ratio of people that get to the CC Bill signup page to those who submit the form and are approved by CC Bill?

The conversions I am talking about is
Number who load the signup form
to
Number who submit the form

09-09-2002, 11:10 AM	#1
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	Why does my old site convert better? I run two paysites: First (older) site: Two years old, based on 2 girls, preview area http://www.gothicamateur.com Second (newer) site: 6 months old, based on 9 girls, tour http://www.blood-dolls.com (less traffic) The first site is doing about 3x the sales of the second one, sometimes better. In the time that the new site makes $1,000, the old one gets $2,000 in new signups and $1,000 in rebills. (Though with our sites, a lot of "new" signups are repeat customers, so its hard to track.) The older site also gets about 50% more traffic than the newer one. Do you think the different ages of the sites (more rebills and repeat/loyal customers) and the higher traffic is enough to account for the difference, or is the newer site converting poorly? I'd like to get conversions up, especially on the new site, and would like to know what I can do but wait for it to build up more of a loyal audience. Any thoughts? __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-09-2002, 11:20 AM	#4
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	"Gothic" anything as a name tends to turn-off actual goths. Unsurprisingly, many people don't like labels applied to them, and see a name that explicitly refers to the label as fake. Would well-to-do people go to a restaurant called "Rich People"? ;) So, in terms of going for actual goths, I think "Blood Dolls" is better than a generic name with "Goth" in it. A lot of our audience is more mainstream, though, so you may have a point there. In general, I think the name works. It is a brand of its own, not a generic combination of a couple of obvious words. Also, among goth and vampire fans, the phrase has a meaning that is perfect for our market... yet its not a common enough phrase to be too generic. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-09-2002, 11:59 AM	#5
grumpy Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 9,870	I think your first website looks much better. The second site has a white background, start by changing that into a black background. Gives it a much more mystique look. __________________ Don't let greediness blur your vision \| You gotta let some shit slide icq - 441-456-888

09-09-2002, 12:04 PM	#7
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	I think the newer site has a much better design, and a cleaner look. The older site is more cluttered, which works okay, but wouldn't be appealing to new viewers, I'd think. The white background would be major work to change, and is part of the fresher, more mainstream feel of the site. It's something to think about, but I'd certainly want more than one opinion on that before going for such a major revamp with potentially tiny results. Does anyone else think that putting the site on a black background would actually help conversions? __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-09-2002, 12:09 PM	#8
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	Hmm... I have two basic replies so far, each "seconded"... 1. Change the background. This would require pretty much a complete redesign, given that much of the site is graphical, not text. Also, what worked for this site on white wouldn't translate well to black, so I would basically be starting the design from scratch. 2. Change the name. This would require as complete a redesign, and in fact a new domain name, re-branding, modification of all my other sites, and so forth. Basically put me back at square one. Any ideas that don't require me to re-do virtually everything I have done since February? ;) Is there anything inherent about the tour I have that makes it less appealing? Or more importantly, that would lead to lower conversions... Do I use too many, or the wrong sorts of samples? That sort of thing. The help so far is appreciated, but hopefully there is some stuff I can improve, rather than building a whole new site. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-09-2002, 11:13 AM	#2
Phil21 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ICQ: 25285313 Posts: 993	I think using "blood dolls" as a name as opposed to gothic-anything would turn me the hell off if I was looking for goth chicks. But, I guess I'm not your target customer either. Something about that name just makes me turned off. could that be it? People thinking "damn, I'm not a sick motherfucker!" shrug -Phil

09-09-2002, 12:11 PM	#9
SexyMarie Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 52	In my humble opinion (I'm always struggling with my own designs...): First thing... the colour. For me goth=black, not white... Second thing... for me your first site is much easier to navigate with the menu on the left. And with the second site I noticed strange thing... When I clicked on some links and clicked 'back' to the main preview page the browser resized automatically to 800x600 (I think). BTW, I really like your style of photography __________________ Try me - real amateur program, real girl = real money

09-09-2002, 12:19 PM	#10
Backov Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cat Detector Van Posts: 1,600	Some quick things: Main page is cluttered looking at 1280x1024 NEVER EVER resize my browser! - I close sites that take it upon themselves to resize me. I think the tour looks great, not sure what I would do to improve it.. Here's one thing however: Have you thought that the only reason your older site is converting better is because it's getting better quality traffic? Older sites tend to get more SE traffic than newer ones. That combined with the fact that it's getting MORE traffic could be the difference. Cheers, Backov __________________ <embed src="http://banners.spotbrokers.com/button.swf" FlashVars="clickURL=http://banners.spotbrokers.com" quality=high pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="120" height="60"></embed>

09-09-2002, 12:20 PM	#11
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	Thanks for the feedback, Marie... The site is not trying to be hardcore goth. It is trying to have its own style. Most goths do their own thing, and few are like the stereotype. Also, by softening the whole goth thing, we hope to have broader appeal. I mean, putting up two identical sets every week, in the same style, would get boring. Goth is a starting point, not a limitation. That plays into the name not saying "goth" or "dark". The idea of the white is to have a clean site, with its own feel, not to succumb to stereotype. Also, darker photos have more impact on a brighter backdrop... black on black isn't exactly high-contrast. As for navigation... I wanted a design without a frame. The frame has worked well for GothicAmateur.com, but all sorts of people tell me not to have one. So, for Blood Dolls, I ditched the frame. Is the Blood Dolls preview site that hard to navigate? I guess I think we are getting away from the things that really affect conversions. I am more curious as to whether people think the age of the other site accounts for the difference in sales. Any opinions on that, on a more strategic, less nitpicky level? __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-09-2002, 12:38 PM	#14
grumpy Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 9,870	I dont know if you can do it...but maybe switch the sites for a day or three and see if the signup ratio changes then. If it doesnt you know its the traffic. If it does you know its the site. __________________ Don't let greediness blur your vision \| You gotta let some shit slide icq - 441-456-888

09-09-2002, 01:34 PM	#16
Jak So Fucking Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: ripenedpeach.com Posts: 1,143	A few things... Blood-Dolls is a better name than Gothic Amateurs, in my humble opinion. I come from an industrial\goth background, and I even cringe to have to say that as it puts that categorization onto it. If I'm looking for goth chicks I think twice about any site named "Gothic" anything. Blood Dolls, Suicide Girls, SpookyLinks, etc. Those are great names. Anyway, as for the Blood Dolls site itself... First off I don't care for the browser resize. I LOATHE any site that takes it upon itself to resize my browser. I use a high res on my monitor, and every time a site resizes my stuff every new window opened after that is sized the same, and that irritates the hell out of me. I have to resize the damned thing before I close it to prevent that. Please say no to screwing with other people's comfort zones. Now, once I resize the thing, the buttons end up WAY at the top and bottom, all spread out, with the main frame smack in the middle of the page. There's a hell of a lot of white space between the nav buttons and the main section: I would recommend taking the whole of it and confining it to a table that's the size you want. It would all stay together no matter what the resolution of the browser window. OK with that said, it took me about 10 seconds to find the actual button I needed to use to join the site. That sounds lame but it's important. The JOIN button is your target. You have to show people where it is or they won't even see it. Just like the word "of" in that genius test that was posted some time ago (http://board.gofuckyourself.com/show...=genius+ test), the word "Join" seems to elude people as well. As cheesy as it seems, flash it with a GIF. Don't let them leave without their eyes seeing it at least once. That "And + More" button on the top nav section? Link it up to your Join page. The "Blood Dolls" logo at the top left? Link it up to your Join page. Rename "Main Area" to "Members Area". I clicked it thinking it would take me to a main section where I could see some stuff, and was presented with a login, a 404, and a popup. Sure, pop the authenticate login, but if it's a cancel or bad login from there, take them to... you guessed it... the Join page. Right now, someone hits that button and gets a popup window featuring "EVERY OTHER SITE BUT BLOOD-DOLLS". The surfer's thoughts: "hmmm... I guess that's the main area. Hey what's this link?" and you've lost them. Your tour is too long. What are the figures? For every page of your tour you lose something like 50% of everyone who's viewing it? Your tour should be just that... a tour. A tour needs a tour guide. A tour doesn't usually let people wander off all over the place on their own. Your Blood Dolls tour does. And guess what? They'll get lost. And cry. And go home. Those are my thoughts. I love your photography and I hope some of what I said makes sense. Jak

09-09-2002, 01:54 PM	#17
Backov Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cat Detector Van Posts: 1,600	I agree with everything Jak just said. That's what I meant when I said a professional designer would have more input - there it was, heed it. Cheers, Backov __________________ <embed src="http://banners.spotbrokers.com/button.swf" FlashVars="clickURL=http://banners.spotbrokers.com" quality=high pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="120" height="60"></embed>

09-09-2002, 02:02 PM	#18
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	Blood Dolls is a good name.

09-09-2002, 02:05 PM	#19
BV wtf Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Bikini State, FL USA Posts: 10,914	Well I'm not into Goth and don't know much about it; But: I would customize your ccbill joinpage with some graphics like you did on your older site and see if that helps. IMO personalized join pages = good. Also I agree with the above comments, especially the one about making your JOIN links more visible. These 2 things will be very easy to do without any major reconstruction. Cheers, BV

09-09-2002, 02:09 PM	#20
tree Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,601	the white background doesn't look as "goth" o ya and i would stick that back up there:

09-09-2002, 02:10 PM	#21
Que? Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 340	If your site is of some interest i would not worry if i lost the fish the first time . Theyll come back and circle some more but still make it easy for them or they feel stupid and stressed. The word blood on white makes me feel a little dizzy. Seen to many insides of emergency rooms i guess..... __________________ Send ccia out to deep space:<br> Donate to <a href="http://www.impai.org/">IMPA</a>

09-09-2002, 02:27 PM	#22
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	Jak, your advice is very helpful. I can see I have a lot to do, and it looks like your advice will really get me started. I appreciate everyone's help. Hopefully I can answer a lot of these concerns soon. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-09-2002, 02:40 PM	#23
Supercharged Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: B.C., Canada Posts: 219	We do over 100 designs a year, and while it doesn't happen often, it does happen... Sometimes we replace a retro 90's design with gaudy clashing colors, spinning logos and blinking text, with a sweet clean design and it doesn't convert as well... The bottom line is... the bottom line, thats why alot of the bigger companies will contract out 5 designers for one pay site, test them all and keep the one that converts the best or none of them if the old one did better... Changing for the sake of change is not always a good thing... If it aint broke dont fix it :o) __________________ Stephan ICQ 4491799 Supercharged Web Designs Web Hosting Adult Design

09-09-2002, 02:56 PM	#24
RogerV Banned! Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 12,591	I notice you have more banners & buttons on http://www.blood-dolls.com which distracts and confuses the surfer plus you need to focus more on getting them to sign up then giving them more to tours to surf thru. they start to lose interest because most of it is an impulse buy There really is no ryme or rythim to it we have sites that look bad that convert better then sites that I think look great thats why i always focus on the deal or the trial. Less text more pics pointing to join . The surfer has been banged around enough already from Pop to pop unless you got it first of the search engine or by mailers so most of the time they've seen enough. so focus more on getting them to the join page. Last edited by RogerV; 09-09-2002 at 03:00 PM..

09-09-2002, 02:58 PM	#25
RogerV Banned! Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 12,591	Just read JAK post and I agree also forgot to mention this use action words for join button sometimes people need to be told what to do. Specially if its a Newb Surfer who normally are the ones to join faster. action words Like: Start here, Instant access, Join now, click here to join etc. Last edited by RogerV; 09-09-2002 at 03:05 PM..

09-09-2002, 08:10 PM	#26
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	I have cleaned up a few things. The join links are now animated, and should draw more attention. I also made the members area link more clear. In doing so, I also made some of the text clearer. Also, I got rid of the resize, and made the tour pages so they fit better on 800 x 600 displays. They also look cleaner on larger screens, now. I hope that bit is less annoying now. The entry page is cleaned up some. I still have some outgoing banners, but they are less prominent, and the overall layout is cleaner. The only link likely to draw people elsewhere is to our other site. (I also added a somewhat over-obvious second chance to ENTER HERE.) Other stuff... RogerV: Our join links all say "Join Now". As for the sell... I want the quality of our content to sell, not just the price. My goal is to present the content in a way that doesn't detract from it. So a clean design is important to me. Tree: I have been goth for more than a third of my life, and I am happy with the white background. ;) Seriously, though, I use the white to make it clear we're not so goth that normal people won't like it. I have enough black sites. BV: I like to idea of a customized CCBill signup page for this site. I haven't gotten to it yet, but I will. Thanks. Thanks to everyone, in fact. Constructive criticism is a great thing, and I appreciate your time and honesty. I hope it is coming together better, thanks to your help. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-09-2002, 08:24 PM	#28
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	Heh. I know you were trying to help... I wasn't offended. It's helpful input, it's just something I have thought about and am happy with. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-09-2002, 08:26 PM	#29
tree Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,601	im just drunk and bustin your balls i like the site a lot goth chicks are hot as fuck

09-09-2002, 08:39 PM	#31
tree Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,601	ya i agree the purple doesn't jive with the rest of the site...the surfers wang goes down when theres a page without nakkid girls on it

09-09-2002, 09:11 PM	#33
RogerV Banned! Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 12,591	I really think you should focus on making the join now stand out because i over looked it. If I didn't catch it right away most surfers won't but then again thats just my I've helped people make there site convert %50 better. Because we have already done it all. we have been doing Paysites since 1996. that has always been our main focus. we tweak sites all the time till we hit the jack pot. Trial and error I guess its one of those situations where you need to find out for yourself good luck. I can't wait to tell you i told you so

09-09-2002, 09:23 PM	#34
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	RogerV: I know you're right. Making the Join links more visible will always be better. I will work to make it as obvious and inviting as possible. More than I've done now will take a more serious rework, but I will get to it. I set-up a new join page for Blood Dolls. I haven't linked it yet, as there's a lot of pages to link from. The URL for it is http://www.blood-dolls.com/signup/ I was wondering if that looks good to you guys, and if it's loading a slow as death for you too... __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-09-2002, 09:39 PM	#35
RogerV Banned! Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 12,591	I think the join page looks fine the only thing i would do is move the submit Order above the IP address if you can. and maybe offer a trial for less. If you feel secure with your exclusive content they won't cancel. surfers feel a little more comfortable joining if the know they can check the site out for a cheap price something under $5 for 5 days. try everything out its all about trial and error. there really is no other way.

09-09-2002, 09:58 PM	#36
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	I am not sure whether I am able to modify everything about the layout of that page, especially the things you mention. I will look into it, though. I currently offer a trial to our other site. I tend to test things on one site at a time, rather than jumping in all at once. The test still needs some more time before I add a trial to Blood Dolls. I have been thinking about it, though. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

09-10-2002, 03:02 AM	#38
cheekycherry Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 1,703	Black background needed.

09-10-2002, 03:24 AM	#39
mGreg Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 602	blood-dolls does turn me off abit, and black backgound would look more goth