Rory

I think most of you seem to be missing a major point here. When a hotel charges you for a room that you booked and no showed, how is that the same as consumer buying from a site he sees and likes and then being 'auto signed up' to a site he has never seen or shown any interest in. I think fair charging of folks cc's is charging them for things they sign up for, not signing them up for a 5 day time bomb waiting to be billed for something they have never even shown any intrest in. What about giving the surfer content that he was looking for and charge him a monthly fee for it. If you deliver what the surfer was/is looking for and collect a fee as long as he/she is using the service what is wrong with that? I still think it is just flat out scamming by signing someone up to a site they have never seen or shown intrest in even if you give them a free few days. I agree that it is probably a great way to make a quick buck, but how many surfers do people such as yourself need to piss off (even if in your mind you are legit by giving them a few days before you charge them for a service they got fine prnted into joining) until nobody is able to get anyone to signup because they are sick of being screwed? I really do believe that people are willing to pay a fee for a site that offers unique and entertaining content, but if people keep getting screwed by fine print they are going to stop buying, we are selling a luxury service, not a neccessity. Like I said earlier there is nothing that I or anyone in this thread can say to make you change your business model, however at least step up to the plate and admit that you are using some fairly shady methods to charge a consumers card.

Rory

BVF

what's wrong is that it's a megashitload of the same CRAP that everybody else has. It doesn't matter how MUCH content a surfer can get through, it's how much the surfer LIKES the content that he's surfing through.

I'm not a program owner at the multimillion dollar level. I just can't understand how y'all just don't get it.

Spend some of those millions you're making and hire some unknown in-house photographers to go out there and find some unique content. If I had the money y'all had, I'd have people working EXCLUSIVELY for me all around the world.

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RogerV

This has just been our observation we have tried every type of
model you can possibley do
From free trials, paid 3 day trials, low monthly membership like $6.96 a month, 1dollar a month trial and a few others.

we have had a litle content in our sites to buying everything to put in the membership.

and nothing has kept the retention for more that 2-3 months

If you do a few sales a day your average retention might be a little higher. but the average retention is about 2-3 months now.

what I am saying is surfers look for free stuff and they join because its an impulse buy its not thought out. they just got turned on by your site for whatever reason and joined.

there are always exceptions of course.

so look for a sponsor you can trust and who makes you the most overall
Don't look at the payout $ if it sounds to high there is a reason for it.
but everyone has there own formula to profit we make ours off the exits and cross sells that no secret and we pay on the trial so it works out for us. the freefreeprogam has been our best program we have built so far.
because most people know nothings free we are a buck for a month
we build programs for the webmasters so if there's something
you guys would like to see let me know

RogerV

Do you think we havn't tried that. I was one of the first to have a vouyer house called therealworld.com it had tons of live cams with audio and tons of exclusive content.
It was also in the news many times. but it didn't matter we charged $19.95 a month for it and people still move on and get bored.
they want to see what else there is out here. and they have short attention spans. they just want to spank one out real quik
then when they get the bill they get upset.

I don't know how else to explain it?

gothweb

A few months? Could it have something to do with the whole feel of the "corporate magasite"? We retain much better than that, and have a few people signing up for a 6-month membership every six months. Personality and quality go a long way... an impersonal megasite isn't going to instill loyalty. We've had people sign up for our sites just to show us support.

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RogerV

I forgot to mention we also had many girls with there own amateur site and a live cam inthere house with exclusive content of there own that we shot for them.

it did retain a little better but not much.

maybe you guys remember chinasbox,sexbrat those were a couple of our real amateur sites.

then what happens is the girls get burnt out and they stop chatting with the members etc. they become pre madonna's or what ever.
we have many niche sites that don't have a mega feel to them.

Like I said we have been doing this for about 7 years we have tried everything.
there is a reason why alot of the big sponsors have the same set up. I'm sure they have tried everything.
the only model that I think was a great hit for retention and still is is Ifriends. at first I thought it wouldn't work per Minute but they showed us differant.

RogerV

I'm just curious when you buy shoes or even a drink what do you purchase?

what type of computer do you have E machine or HP or whatever?

Sly_RJ

Sketchers. Mountain Dew. Gateway, just ordered a Dell.

Why? I didn't catch what you're trying to point out, I skimmed the long posts.

I do know one thing, friends who know I do porn bitch at me because of tactics that the "free" AVS sites use, and even other pay model sites. Furthermore, they make it quite clear that they have little faith in porn sites, solely because they know they're going to get scammed.

The same people that do this shit are the same ones who bitch about free sites and TGP's. Go figure. People go to The Hun because they trust him, no scams, no nothing. They're skeptical of paysites because of their previous shitty experiences.

I'm not accusing anyone here, just stating some observations.

SykkBoy

with the hotel, you're getting charged for something you never even used....THAT is shady....I agree some of the sites crossbilling could use better disclaimers, but I'm not about to tell anyone how to run their business...

actually, we don't use shady methods at all...but because we are a partnership proggie, we don't get the same number of webmasters as other programs, but that suits us fine...we'd rather work with affiliates who want to make money with us long term, but there don't seem to be many. Hmmm, I wonder who the quick buck artists are? those who use "shady" practices...or those who want that $35-40-45-50 signup regardless? How shady is giving away from free porn to minors (like TGP's do)?

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gothweb

I buy comfortable shoes. Don't worry about brand... just something boring, black, and leather that doesn't crush my fallen arches. ;)

I buy a lot of weird drinks... organic colas, grenadine, fruit juice... Some brand names, some based on experience, some because they are on sale.

And, of course, my computers are Macs...

I get what you are saying. People like brands, because they are sure to get something they can trust. However, that only works if they have had a good experience with that brand before.

Brands arose because of really low quality around the turn of the century, mostly. People never knew what they would get. With coca-cola, for instance, you knew every bottle was the same. We see the same thing now with McDonalds... it isn't the best, but it is consistent... and the rat tails in the bottles are more rare now. ;)

However, think about how this applies to porn... People don't want a faceless corporation. They don't want just consistency. They are looking for a personal experience... They are masturbating, for christ's sake! Would you wank over the golden arches?

So if you want to do well, you need personality, and you need the *consistent* experience you give them to be really great. Otherwise, your brand has no value. (Not targetting anyone in specific here, it's a general point.) With Porn, you have to at least be an Apple or a Saturn... You can't be a Hyundai or a Packard Bell.

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RogerV

No shit

when we went to an active model and paid $40 with a paid 3 day trial and no cross sells. up front no bullshit you get paid when we do or when it went to a full membership.

we lost half our webmasters who wanted to get paid on the trial.
that was a bad move on our part now we pay on a $1 trial for a month that is very easy to convert and its hard to beat.

like i said look who makes you the most money don't worry about the pay out. try everything out and see who makes you the most $$$

Rory

How at all is getting charged for something you didnt use and getting charged for something you never had any knowledge of the same thing? Sure you probably mention it in your fine print, but we all know that most folks dont read the fine print (and in my opinion they shouldnt have to read pages of bs just to make sure they arent being signed up to other sites). The hotel may charge you for something you didnt use, but at least the hotel didnt make reservations for you for your next vacation and then charge you for not staying even though you never made the reservations. If you dont see the difference in those 2 scenarios then please put your right hand behind your head and bang it against your monitor. Repeat if neccessary.

RogerV :
You seem to continue to try and convince everyone that your scamming is neccessary because you have tried everything else and this method works. No one is trying to tell you how to run your business as I said before, you will run it how you feel and use the methods that you choose. However the fact that its the only way that you can be successful doesnt change the fact that you are still scamming consumers. You may make millions using this method and sit on some beach somewhere and never worry about anything, which is great and more power to you, but the fact is that you scammed a few consumers along the way to make those millions. So please dont try and act like the "Ya I hate scammers" guy when you yourself are doing a bit of scamming yourself.



Rory

RogerV

Check out our operation before you say we are scammers

and our free trials that rebill at a full price are not in fine print
so check out what we do before you post.
if they can't read thats not my problem.

Join our site and check it out for yourself thats what I do on other programs. or can you not afford a $1

but I guess we all have our own opinions.
I'm just trying to shed some facts from our experience.

what is your experience? and what do you deem exceptible?
enlighten me

consumers are used to reading fine print and if they don't they get screwed buy everything they have purchased if they were not careful. the thing is they signed something or paid cash.
when was the last time you bought something do you read all the fine print and if not do you get your money back or just store credit?
when they buy it with us they don't sign on the bottom line so they just cancel and chargeback. so who gets screwed?

Just because we have agreat converting program doen'st mean we are scammers. we just figured out the right formula for now

RogerV

Rory what is your program and sites i would like to check them out.
either post it or email me [email protected]

49thParallel

As many of you know, Real Audio announced a couple of weeks back that they are not adverse to adding an adult channel to their line-up. (PR speak for, "we ARE adding an adult channel"). It just shows the sad state of our industry when I, as an adult webmaster, would join their site long before I would join many of the programs flogged on this bbs. They've built a reputation for quality and honesty...and that goes a long way.

And yes, I would and have joined Amateur Pages in the past. Proving there is profit in honesty and good marketing.

P.S. For those of you have not followed this entire thread...which I started...yes, at the start Pornkings did look guilty of a certain "scamming" practice. I for one am satsified that he was able to clarify the situation , and does run a acceptable program. SEXHIT on the other hand does not. Of course...in 4 days when my test account Trial Period at Pornkings is over...I will attempt to cancel it...if I run into any obstacles, believe me, I will certainly be the first to blow the horn. But for now, I will take Roger at his word.

TheDoc

...Crazy people!

Goth and Roger are really talking about two different things.

Goth your site shows retention better because you do not offer a trial. It is easy for most any paysite to hit 3.5-4.5 average retention ratio because their is no trial.

You add in a trial and it drops it to 2 months..If your lucky.

Once your site is at a point of massive amount of content, exlcusive series, good video, something that makes it worth the money people will retain a tad longer.

Even from site to site within the same niche and same content will retain differently. Colors, looks, ect all factor in.

I think roger is talking about his paysites. Which are trial based. If Roger does the math after the trial the rentetion is stupid high which he knows.

Goth your site is totally different. Their is no trial so ofcourse your retention is going to longer.

We have exclusive content, personal bios, chat boards, live shit, interviews with porn stars, everything to make our site(s) more exclusive. The only improvment we saw was the trial to full membership ratio. Our big dick sites out convert and out retain our teen sites while our boobsite which is almost all exclusive content does the worst out of all our sites. Is it the look? No our members area all have the same layout with different graphics.

I have not seen anyone in years that is doing over 4 month average retention ratio even with no trials.

2% of all members forget...That helps

Now you might be thinking then why have trials. Well fact is without trials you can't convert as well...

So if I get 100,000 hits with no trials and convert 1:1000 I get 100 signups X 29.95 = $2995

100,000 hits convert at 1:500 = 200 X 4.95 = $990
200 at 35% converstion ratio (average) 70 X 29.95 = $2095.50

Add the two together $3086.50 I win with trials. As well I have 100 extra credit card e-mails, more members in my members area to get up sells, sex shops, special promos to stay longer, whatever. I end up with the damn near the same member base growth even with bad ratios.

The main goal for pay per join money programs is to get that trial to full month membership ratio as high as possible as we all know what the average retention ratio is going to be after the trial.


With cross sales they are not blind. They click the button it's not checked by default. Cross sales are normally picked on the niche of the site as well if the money programs did "SCREW" the member they would bitch and the complaints on this are very low. They want it..Reason we know this for a fact is if their is ever an error with a password they want access to that site to check it out. They know what the fuck is going on.

As for paysite owners screwing the surfer? Some people yes, the major programs..NO! Epoch/Ibill ect jump our asses for simple password or database errors. I think you have it backwards...It's members screwing us. Fucking charging back saying they never used the site when we know for a fact what date and time they used the members area. Reqeusting refunds under the same thing...Members fuck paysite owners 10 times worse than any paysite fucks members. For the most part

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Rory

Jesus Roger , how many times are you going to try and switch focus to something else such as my programs, etc. Iam not trying to stab at your manhood or whatnot, I agree you are a big timer successful multi millionare, I am not disputing that. All that Iam saying is that I really dont think that there is anyway that you can say that signing a consumer up to a site they have never seen or shown intrest in even if they have a 5 day period to cancel if they happen to notice they were enrolled in some great program. Tell me this , would you be pissed if something like this happened to you : Say you order some fitness equipment online and in the fine print they hide down on the bottom of the page that they send all there customers a set of 40 fitness videos that they charge your card $300 for unless you go to igotscammed.com and enter your order number in 5 days. Tell me that wouldnt piss you off and I will at least know where you are coming from. Please though dont say that you read every fine print of every document in your life and that you can recite the fine print on the terms on the metal sign in the parking lot at Safeway near your house. I believe it is the responsibility of the merchant to treat consumers fairly and all I want to say is that IMO I believe that people who charge someones card for a membership to a site that the consumer has never seen or shown intrest in is scamming the consumer. If you can however say that you think that charging someone for a site they got 'fine print' enrolled to is 100% legit than I can suggest seeking some mental help.

Rory

49thParallel

The thing that I find madding is, after starting this post, I have visited a large number of sponsor sites. It seems to be the industry norm to offer free trials for one amount of time...ie...5 days...then in the small print Terms and Conditions say that the cancellation of the trial must occur 1 or 2 days before the end of the trial, or else full subscription fees will be in effect.

This is what I meant by fraudelent practices. A 5 day trial that needs to be cancelled in 3 or 4 days is not a 5 day trial...it is a 3 or 4 day trial...this is an obvious attempt to mislead the consumer...this should be ILLEGAL...how can anyone not agree that this is simply theft!

And no, the fact that SOME consumers will try to chargeback legitimate purchases does not justify "screwing" the consumer.

Rory

49th :
Im by no means saying that I agree, but technically if you get access to the site for 5 days (whcih you will be able to access the site for 5 days), you are technically getting 5 days of access therefore a 5 day trial. I agree its a wording issue there that I agree is very deceptive, however it is in theory giving the consumer a 5 day trial. He gets a peak for 5 days, however he has to read the terms to figure out that he has 3 days to decide if he likes the site to avoid being billed. Like I said, by all means I think that is using fine print to use 'creative' wording which does put a sour taste in the consumers mouth.

Rory

49thParallel

Yes, but Rory, then they could say a 2000 day trial if they wanted to. Since you have to pay on the third day, your subscription starts that day...so the trial is in fact only 3 days. And you must agree that any intelligent person reading a 5 day FREE trial would be correct to read this as ...I get 5 days to view and 5 days to decide...

Anyhow, I did my part...I have gone in and removed all links on all of my pages to any of the sponsors that I feel are running a program that I myself would not join. Talk is cheap...being able to sleep at night with my conscience is priceless.

RogerV

I do agree with you about the trial having to be canceled before the 5th day of the free trial but that was a typo mistake that was made on epoch's pages that no one caught and it will be changed.
it was across the board for everyone using cross sales with epoch
they did not get billed if they canceled on the last day of the trial.

It was an honest typo on the terms that none of us caught
except for 49th
Epoch was made aware of it and it is going to get changed if it didn't already happen. Those T&C are on epochs side not ours.
it's in there best interest to correct the T&C
I hope I've cleared things up.

49thParallel

Roger...and that's exactly why I retracted my earlier posts...you came to bat and you cleared the air in the public. I personally wish that this thread had died a while back or that those who can not defend their practices ...like SEXHIT...would take the beating instead of you.

P.S. You convinced me on the honesty of your program. I put up a few links tonight to test the waters..

RogerV

Thank you

Because this is my last post on this topic.

I hope people read the thread and not just post.
We at Pornkings run a good and clean program.

thank you and I hope you do well.
If you need help converting us hit me up. all my info is on Pornkings

Example www.onlyporn.com its ugly but it loads fast and works

Rory

RogerV:
I never intended to say you were running a good or bad program, I just stated my opinion on cross joins and I thought it was odd that you appeared to be anti scam guy when you were IMO doing a bit of scamming/consumer confusion yourself. I dont want you to think I was attacking you or your program, I was just stating my opinion about what I feel confuses the consumer and gives paysites a bad rap. I do however find it odd that a post addressed to you was skipped , however you replied and quoted a post I addressed to 49th. Once again nothing personal againt you or your program, I hope you do very well.

Rory

RogerV

Its kewl This thread started to get confusing

And your right I wish the cross sells never started. but if we don't follow the trend we can't compete with the rest.
because MOST webmasters are not loyal and they go for the higher payout or free trial with the high payout.

that is why we came up with a creative way to Promote our sites and I'm sure many will follow. $1 trial for a month

I'll be honest With the longer trial I thought people would forget to cancel but they don't they still cancel within the day and only a few stick around.But we do a High volume of sales so it comes down to a numbers game.

all I know is if you promote the Porn 4 a $1 a month you will love
the conversions.
the payout is $25 per trial but you convert 2-3 times better than other programs so its like making $50-$75 on the same traffic.

49thParallel

Also my last post...

Rory...just to clear the air...I think SEXHIT's practices and Pornkings practices are getting confused here. Sexhit throws in the automatic paysite membership along with their free trial...all in very small and misleading type.

Pornking's add-ons are clearly displayed along with complete rollover subscription pricing....Since the other concerns have been alleviated, Pornkings practices are fair and no different then a clothing store saying, "do you need a pair of socks with that shirt". Pornking is simply doing an upsell and they are not hiding this fact.

As I said, this is my last post...I just felt since I started this thread, it was only proper that I clarify matters.

Backov

I love your posts Doc, very informative. That said, I have a problem with your math.

First scenario: 100 signups x 29.95 = $2995

PLUS 3 extra months retain = 3 x 100 x 29.95 = $8985

Total sans upsells: $11980

--

Second scenario: 200 trials x 4.95 = $990

70 (35%) retain past trial and retain 2 months: 70 * 2 * 29.95 = $4193.00

Total sans upsells: $5183.00

---

Now tell me, why are you offering trials again? We sure don't, and we love it. Trials suck ass.

Cheers,
Backov

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Kimmykim

Oh good lord, does it take a girl to say it?

Its not about the money after a point its about being the biggest or bigger than so and so.

Program A runs off at the mouth about how they have conversions of 12 joins to 1 surfer.

Affiliates jump on board.

Program B says they'll pay 3 billion dollars per free trial sold.

Affiliates jump on board.

Program C says our ratios are good and we pay a reasonable amount. We aren't the best in our own stats versus other peoples own stats and we don't pay out a ridiculous amount, but we are steady.

If people don't know you, no one jumps on board.

You have two choices in this business, margin or volume and they are proportionately equalizing.

If you can do 10 joins a day but you only make 10 bucks off each join, BUT you can do 1000 joins a day and make 1 buck off each one, what are you going to do? And if the only way to get to that 1000 joins a day is to pay more or whatever, I guess that's what happens.

So then programs D, E, F gotta raise the bar, and its another of those vicious cycles.

And all this is befote you take into account cheating webmasters, smarter surfers, and an oversaturated marketplace.

In the end tho, it comes to a point between big programs where the dollars are a game, the number of joins are a game, and the rest is irrelevant.

RogerV

In the end tho, it comes to a point between big programs where the dollars are a game, the number of joins are a game, and the rest is irrelevant.

kimmy kim I didn't realize how informative you were

Your right like I said in my post above its all a numbers game and the margins get tighter all the time.

Its to the point where we have to do High volume with high conversions and payouts to profit a little.

What's scary is some programs run at such tight margins that the only way to profit is to shut the program down one day and not pay webmasters. scary thought
example some company generates 1 mill a month but pays out webmasters 900,000 a month not counting overhead he might be in the black.
turns his program off and walks away with millions.

thats why i say get to know your sponsor if there hiding from you
there is a reason for it. Its alot easier to disapear and start all over again. think about it.

this is something that we talk about behind close doors all the time. which big company will jump ship first.
competition is tuff not like it used to be 2 years ago.

webmasters still expect to make as much as they did 2 years ago or even a year ago.
If you can't pick up the phone and call your sponsor somethings up.

WiredGuy

proportionately equalizing... wow! Big words. Just teasing, you hit the point right on. Make bank on low profit/high volume or high profit/low volume... seems to be the cardinal rule of business in general, not just this biz.

WG

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Kimmykim

You are sooo correct Wired Guy -- every industry that's derived from a sales standpoint has the run of the spectrum -- and it's all about what sort of system people running the businesses want to manage.

In economics tho -- there is the law of diminishing returns -- and I would guess that some companies in adult have already hit that threshhold and are on the sinking side of it --

which is fine, they'll either cash out or clear out, and what's left will readjust itself to the market and correct.

If affiliates spent more time looking at the totals on their checks and less time looking at their stats, things might even out too

WiredGuy

Yup, webmasters have the same issues to look at as well. I used to have an enourmous ROI % last year before the January Internext. Shortly thereafter, it plummeted. So since then I've been working on getting volume of traffic rather than improving ROI. So to speak, I am changing from the low volume/high ROI model to the high volume/low ROI model. I find the high volume model to be less risk though in the long run.

Everyone (webmasters and sponsors) should always evaluate their ROI's to see what works best for them.

WG

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DyannaDoes

Problem is, you are comparing apples to oranges.

Dell sells computers. So does Joe's computer shack down the stret from me . . . their business models/plans are quite different.


My old site was like yours - no trials, no tricks. But I will say you might try experimenting with removing your no re-bill option . . . if you have a quality site and a good processor you'll make more money.

gothweb

I am confused by TheDoc's contention that I am talking Apples and Oranges.

Most corporate sites have things like...
Free trials with tricky expiration,
Free trials with instant cross-sale,
Free trials with obfuscated rebill,
Confusing upsales,
etc.

My site has...
Non-rebilling option,
No cross-sales,
No small print.

So, yes, the sales models we are using are totally different. However, how is that a relevant concern? I know they are different, that's what I am talking about! If they were the same, I wouldn't have said anything.

What I am trying to say, first of all, is that the only reason to offer such bullshit is to impress affiliates. You can make just as much money from your viewers by offering straighforward and honest billing options. So it isn't about conversions, it is about volume. I don't think any of you really think that pricing like that draws in and keeps members.

That leaves the issue of traffic, of course. If you offer deceptive bullshit and impressive numbers to your affiliate webmasters, then they get the feeling that your program will convert well for them. The thing is, you got there by deceiving the viewers. And, to some extent, you're suckering the affiliates as well. Tempting them with cookies instead of proving yourself with good conversions. That makes you an Infomercial (now with free ginsu knives), not a Prestige Brand. People may try you out, but they won't stay... just like the viewers.

But wait, there's more! I guess my point is that the big players have started a bidding war that they can't survive. They keep offering more and more ridiculous payouts, to lure the webmasters in. Great, for now... but we can already see what is happening. People have to include tricks so that their great offers don't put them out of business... and worse, they have to shave (or think they have to).

Why not just tone it down? Why let the "everyone else is doing it" logic get to you? Offer good sites. Be honest with your viewers, and treat them like people. Offer your affiliates a solid one-time payout, or a healthy percentage recurring. Then, show them that it works... Get people who make good money to stand up and say so. Let word of mouth do its work. Stand up and say "this is how well our program converts, and here are this month's stats"... Use third-party billing/processing so people know you don't shave.

And, here's the cool part. If you do business like that, you can stand up and ask the other bigboys why they aren't doing the same! You can make it clear that they need to cheat to win, but you're making yourselves and your affiliates rich without tricks.

Oh well. I can dream. In the meantime, I hope that corporate porn tactics are driving people to my sites as a refuge. Eventually, such tactics will ruin all of our reputations, involved or not. When that happens, the floor falls out from under us. Just remember, it is your constant struggle to outdo your competitors that is dragging us in that direction.

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TheDoc

Backov,

Your math is not possible

First off 100 first time signups do not retain for 3 months.

As well sites with trials convert better than sites without trials. Which is why most programs run trials.

Running with trials allows you to have more signups which allows you to move more credit card holding traffic that will buy porn to other things or other sites that you own.

My math is rather simple and about as correct as it comes. We ran NO trials for the first 2 years of our program. After we changed to trials is when signups and money started going nut's. You push an extra 50% member base (even if a good % quits before the trial) you will make more money.

If your example was true I think every money program on the planet would drop trials. Reason we don't....More money with trials.

Not sure where you get the problem with the math. The math is in the conversion ratio. Trials convert better. Same thing of why Roger offers $1 1 month trials..Push a huge ass amount of members through the system Better ratios make him more money.

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TheDoc

gothweb,

I only know of a few people doing tricky shit...We arn't one of them. We have cross sales but they have to click the check box.

We could run without cross sales but having them allows us a few "extra" fun things for the webmasters..Yes like you said to bring the webmasters in. Bonus days, signup bonus, ratio bonus, whatever little promotion we can think of. The ratio of people that take them is not all that great.

We do how ever get very low complaints about them even when we cross sale our own stuff. People know what they are clicking.
We ran without cross sales for years...Now that we have them we can add in a few bonus options. We did no raise payouts or make some fucking wacked money program because of the cross sale.

You are correct though...Most people have it to create extra stuff for the webmaster. Which in the end is what we need and want but I know Roger and Myself are not scamming the member. My chargeback ratios are under 1% even to my own sites that I exclusive cross sale from time to time.

If people did bitch I would remove cross sales as I don't need the heat or the extra support for my guys.

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TheDoc

Hehe more stuff

We had it "toned down" we used to pay out only $32 a signup. You get the exit if you use the $29.95 per join signup page. We get it if it has trials. .. Know what? Webmasters did not care what the ratio was..They don't do the math they see $32 per join, don't care about the exits, just that it's not $35 or $40 a signup.

Even right now with a $35-$40 payout. I get e-mails every day asking if I will pay them flat $40 a signup if they send X amount of signups..Which I don't.

About shaving? If anyone thinks I shave I don't care. Signup for my site under your ID and watch the signup show up. I can't think of how many times I have told webmasters to do the same thing. If I had to shave I would close my program. I'm not some that needs a new super car or some fucking huge house. I have a normal house..As well as my partners. I have a normal car no super sport car. I love the money yes..But I have employees that damn near make what I do. I offer a nice office, great working conditions, pool tables, racket ball courts, a gym, a cook for the the employees meals, hot tubs, steam rooms, 2 big screen tv's.

Shaving is a way to hang yourself. If you think someone shaves sign up for the damn paysite and bust them. Real simple. We used to let I-bill do the payments and tracking...We changed and we grew 50 times larger.

I guess we must be doing something right as we still have webmasters that used us on the old largecash that was paid by I-bill.

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baremuffin

Okay, wait, I dunno if I get all this...


So then the problem for the paysite owners (corporate or otherwise) becomes something sort of like 'the tgp problem' for webmasters trying to sell... expectations have been raised to a point at which nobody is willing or able to turn them back to a more reasonable, realistic level that wouldn't require any jacking.

Surfers expectations of free porn and the ease at which you can find high quality pics in any niche completely free have frustrated webmasters because they're being 'spoiled' and won't break out the plastic.

In response, webmasters look for the highest paying programs with the least restrictive terms, both for themselves and for the surfer - the biggest trial at the lowest price for the highest payout with the least number of strings attached.

So, to compete, the programs go into these 'cross-sells' which may or may not be clearly defined (depending on who you talk to) but which basically act as upsells that provide the high payouts the webmaster DEMANDS because plummeting conversions have made the higher payout mandatory for the webmaster to maintain their ROI.

Is that what's going on? If so, is it just for the 'corporate' or 'cookie cutter' sites that basically provide the same content as every other site in the same niche, or are the sites based on exclusive content and high quality pics and/or vids having these same problems?

Wouldn't that also mean you could blame this whole mess on TGP as well, because if so much free stuff weren't so easily available and accessible, the conversions would be higher and the need for these cross-sells would be negated? And if that is the case, with the need for a huge payout diminished by conversion ratios that go back to where they statistically SHOULD be, wouldn't removing those cross-sells and 'twists' meant to generate that extra income to cover those payouts actually increase the surfer confidence in the product, resulting in higher conversions in and of itself?

Then, to promote retention, instead of giving the webmaster the extra 30 bucks because his conversion rate is half what it should be, these sites could spend the other 30 bucks per member on new content daily/weekly/monthly, actually giving the surfer a reason to spend 40 bucks per month, and the security and trust to do so.

So really, we need to get rid of freebies because they're not REALLY free, it's prepaid by the webmasters and backended to the surfers whether they like it or not if/when they finally do bother cracking open their wallets.

Supply and demand... the demand for porn is there, and the supply of free porn is coming too damned close to meeting that demand for people to make what they should be making fairly and honestly.

Ugh probably babble but I had to try to figure out what this whole argument was about, and find a way to blame the TGPs... seems strangely rational though.

M

PS - I think what makes the hotel analogy sort of a bitch is that even if it IS a scam, it's a 'convenience' fee... it's like returning something and paying them to 'restock' it. You didn't stay in the room, but you DID ask them to hold it for you and NOT rent it to anyone else, and when you DON'T rent it, they charge you that fee based on the fact that if you hadn't reserved the room then cancelled they COULD have made money... even if YOU would have been free. Or something like that. I dunno. I stayed up too long again.

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Does not play well with others...

TheDoc

The problem is much larger than paysite/money program owners and free sites. Their is so much 'real' shit going on in this industry and it isnt from most of us money program owners. Aye we do some 'dirty tricks' or spam as well as other wacked tricks.

The problem is well beyond that. A few are billing companies not checking sites and people changing them to cp/beast ect. People like Yahoo with open 18+ sex chat rooms filled with 100's of young teen boys and girls.

It's everything together. Free sites, paysites, billing companies, content providers, chatrooms, 1 on 1 sex, stupid users, visa/mc. It's all it together that is the problem.

From software fuck ups like I-bill have with billing people after they cancel to parents not watching their kids as they jack off to your free teen site cause their was no age verification.

Only way to clean up porn is shut the internet off.

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Backov

Dude, I used YOUR NUMBERS.

Conversion ratio was accounted for with TWICE the conversion, which was in your numbers. I know that 100 signups won't retain for 4 months (which is the number I used), but neither will the 70 retained signups from trial retain 2 months.. We're talking about averages here.

Rather than saying my math is wrong, when it isn't (remember, I used YOUR numbers and assumptions), then tell me why. I just don't see it, and I'm pretty good with math.

Here's the real reason IMO - the reason that trials are better for you - you get more affiliates. Affiliates are dumbasses and are impressed by things like trials and $40-$70/signup, even when it's not good economic sense for the sponsor, and said sponsor has to pound the member with exits and upsells just to come near that value from him.

Cheers,
Backov

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Lexxx

Out of all the long threads this one's got the longest posts...

some people are so... um... unaware here about the current state of the industry where 90% of the sponsors bill the holy shit outta surfers with processing companies located all over Asia and Europe. Lots of "theft" as some of you call this... but it's you who demand fucking $50 per sale, so they gotta make the money back somehow...

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