I Could Shave You Even Though We're Using NATS - Page 4 - GoFuckYourself.com

Doctor Dre · 12-19-2004, 12:44 AM

150 homo shavers

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 01:33 AM

Quote:

The only claims we've made is that NATS has no shave feature

Which was a point you didnt have to make because nowhere in this thread was it mentioned that you DO have a shave feature.

Quote:

I never imagined in my life we'd be met with so much definace for trying to bring a little bit of integrity to the business.

Again, i dont see anywhere in this thread where you have been met with defiance, i think everyone agrees there is no shave feature built into NATs but you yourself have even agreed it is still possible for an affiliate program to shave using your application.

Quote:

Lee is annoying, he choose to single us out, most likely for the attention.

Of course because the fact that your application is the latest fad in the industry has nothing to do with it. I used one of the more popular programs to illustrate my point, if this thread had been started 3 months ago, i would have used MPA3 in the thread title.

The difference is, everyone seems to be under the impression you CANT be shaved by an affiliate program using NATs.. As you yourself have agreed in this very thread, that isnt the case.

Quote:

But when he starts a thread making false claims (i.e. he uses NATS)

So you are pissed that i said we were using NATs? Where did i say that? I made a 'comment' i never said we actually did use NATs.

Thats the problem with many people on GFY, they focus on the stuff that really doesnt matter and bring their emotions into the discussion when there shouldnt be any emotion involved at all. This is business, end of story.

Quote:

As far as the modifying of things, you can do exactly the same thing with a CCBill only program (as serveral people have stated in this thread). People for years have said "you're safe with us since we use ccbill for our affiliate program". No one ever jumped on them for it.

Perhaps because most webmasters arent under the impression it is IMPOSSIBLE to shave with CCBill, as they seem to be with NATs, hell ive seen several threads in the last 2 months where affiliate programs were recommonded because they are 'incapable of shaving' because 'they use NATs'.

Quote:

NATS is a very powerful, very flexible software that is growing and taking hold at an unbelievable rate. It is doing so for the most part because it is the best option out there for an affiliate program looking for a turnkey package and it has a real company behind it that offers real service and support. You can ALWAYS reach us by phone during business hours. That may sound silly but it's a rarity in the adult business.

Agreed.. phone support is a rare thing.. shaving however.. is not.

Quote:

NATS taking hold so quickly has some people in the business scared. With that comes hate and drama threads like we have here.

I see no drama.

I see facts being agreed upon and nothing more.

I have nothing to gain from letting webmasters know they can in fact be shaved by an affiliate program that uses NATs.

Regards,

Lee

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee

So you are pissed that i said we were using NATs? Where did i say that? I made a 'comment' i never said we actually did use NATs.

I am going to reply to a few of the shaving things mentioned here in a few hours, I just got up, but dude, seriously. ITS IN THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD!

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
I am going to reply to a few of the shaving things mentioned here in a few hours, I just got up, but dude, seriously. ITS IN THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD!

Quote:

i could

Basic knowledge of the English language would say that the thread title was 'suggestive', not fact.

Regards,

Lee

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
Basic knowledge of the English language would say that the thread title was 'suggestive', not fact.

Regards,

Lee

Actually, the suggestive part of the header is "I Could Shave You" the "Even Though We are using NATS" is not suggestive in any part.

You can twist it all you want, anyone reading the title immediately would think you are using nats.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
Actually, the suggestive part of the header is "I Could Shave You" the "Even Though We are using NATS" is not suggestive in any part.

You can twist it all you want, anyone reading the title immediately would think you are using nats.

So you are in agreement that the thread title and how you interpreted it is what has you guys on the defensive?

Interesting.

Regards,

Lee

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
So you are in agreement that the thread title and how you interpreted it is what has you guys on the defensive?

Interesting.

Regards,

Lee

Uhm, do not put words in my mouth. This is the first time I even posted in this thread and that is all I had to say regarding your constant bla bla bla.

I will post in a few hours again regarding the shaving stuff mentioned here, once I am fully awake and can focus on it.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
This is the first time I even posted in this thread and that is all I had to say regarding your constant bla bla bla.

Well just so we're clear on the facts and merits of this thread.. that was actually the second time you posted but lets not split hairs over it.

As you say you arent fully awake yet so not remembering what you posted 2 minutes ago is understandable.

Looking forward to seeing your response to the other facts aout how affiliate programs can still shave their webmasters evn when using the NATs technology once you have gathered your thoughts

Regards,

Lee

fuzebox · 12-19-2004, 03:12 AM

This thread is ridiculous, no one is even arguing the same thing.

For once I agree with Lee, and understand the point he's making...

Even though NATS has not claimed that it is impossible to shave with their product, the general opinion of the average webmaster is that NATS = no shave. I have no idea who originated this opinion, but I have heard through word-of-mouth, and even read posts such as "xxxxx is using NATS (so no shaving)", and I am constantly amused by it...

I believe the point of the thread is, an affiliate should not promote a program using NATS just because they believe they will not be shaved because of the affiliate software, and nor should a program feel they have to switch to NATS to gain affiliate trust. Unfortunately these ideas have appeared within the last few months, although through no fault of the NATS team.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 03:18 AM

Quote:

This thread is ridiculous, no one is even arguing the same thing.

Agreed it seems that a lot of people have let their emotions get in the way of facts of this thread.

Quote:

For once I agree with Lee, and understand the point he's making...

Yet a lot of the people replying in this thread dont.. go figure... you would almost think they have something to gain by allowing webmasters to continue thinking it is impossible to shave when an affiliate program uses NATs.

Quote:

I believe the point of the thread is, an affiliate should not promote a program using NATS just because they believe they will not be shaved because of the affiliate software, and nor should a program feel they have to switch to NATS to gain affiliate trust. Unfortunately these ideas have appeared within the last few months, although through no fault of the NATS team.

Agreed.

At least i know there is one person who understands what i was saying

Regards,

Lee

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fuzebox
This thread is ridiculous, no one is even arguing the same thing.

For once I agree with Lee, and understand the point he's making...

Even though NATS has not claimed that it is impossible to shave with their product, the general opinion of the average webmaster is that NATS = no shave. I have no idea who originated this opinion, but I have heard through word-of-mouth, and even read posts such as "xxxxx is using NATS (so no shaving)", and I am constantly amused by it...

I believe the point of the thread is, an affiliate should not promote a program using NATS just because they believe they will not be shaved because of the affiliate software, and nor should a program feel they have to switch to NATS to gain affiliate trust. Unfortunately these ideas have appeared within the last few months, although through no fault of the NATS team.

You are correct, it is not impossible to shave with NATS. We have said that all the time. BUT one thing you HAVE to understand is that we do not let any of our clients shave. If anyone IS found to shave around NATS we WILL terminate their license and we WILL sue them.

And on top of that we make it as difficult as possible for anyone to shave.

Also, the fact that all our clients KNOW we will sue them when they shave and KNOW we will terminate their license, is something that protects the affiliate. We have a close eye on our clients and they know. If anyone does shave somehow we WILL catch them, there is no doubt there.

Anyone using NATS would have to put a lot of effort into it to shave without everyone noticing they are doing it. And even if they figure out a way to do so, we ARE going to detect it and the shit will hit the fan. People investing the time and energy to learn and use NATS to its fullest capabilities will not even THINK about trying to shave because they do not have to to be competitive in this industry.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
[B]You are correct, it is not impossible to shave with NATS.

That was the only reply this thread needed.. Right at the beginning.

Quote:

If anyone IS found to shave around NATS we WILL terminate their license and we WILL sue them.

No offence Nathan but, there is absolutely no way that you could find out if a client of yours was shaving.. specifically if they didnt include the NATs tracking on their tour pages or, are you saying that you check every one of your clients paysites 24/7/365? Very impressive if you do, i would love to be able to afford someone to surf thousands of paysites every second, every hour, of every day

Quote:

And on top of that we make it as difficult as possible for anyone to shave.

Again, no offence but you dont. It has already been stated that all a program has to d is utilize a php include into a tour page and you and the affiliates would be non the wiser.

Quote:

Also, the fact that all our clients KNOW we will sue them when they shave and KNOW we will terminate their license, is something that protects the affiliate. We have a close eye on our clients and they know. If anyone does shave somehow we WILL catch them, there is no doubt there.

Looking forward to seeing the first ever lawsuit in the industry about shaving

It will certainly set a precedent thats for sure

Quote:

Anyone using NATS would have to put a lot of effort into it to shave without everyone noticing they are doing it.

No they wouldnt.

As i said though, the first comment you made in your post was all that was needed in this thread. It is exactly what i said in my original post yet for watever reason, the points people were arguing had nothing to do with those comments lol

Glad to see you are in agreement that its possible to shave even when an affiliate program uses NATs technology.. kudos

Now if you could figure a way out to have all the paysite tours included in an 'admin' area or have your script generate the tour pages.. that would be something worth marketing

Regards,

Lee

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 03:45 AM

Oh and ever so quickly, on the subject of editing the MySQL database to 'drop' sales etc.

Why not have the MySQL data encoded in addition to the php coding? Would certainly make it a LOT harder for dishonest programs to shave sales if you did.

Regards,

Lee

fuzebox · 12-19-2004, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
Why not have the MySQL data encoded in addition to the php coding? Would certainly make it a LOT harder for dishonest programs to shave sales if you did.

There is no practical way to do this.

Curious though, how exactly would the NATS guys figure out one of their customers is shaving?

I'd imagine that as soon as word got out that sponsor company X was shaving, they'd have bigger worries than a lawsuit from a company who's software they license.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fuzebox
There is no practical way to do this.

From my understanding of php/MySQL it should actually be quite easy to do.

You simply have a 'key' based on the amount of seconds from a given date for example:

Based on the date/time of this post the key would be something like:

A - 1
B - 2
C - 3
D - 4
E - 5

etc etc

The script would write the data to MySQL using that key so that the word 'BAD' would appear as '214' in the MySQL database.

The script would know the key but, an affiliate program wouldnt.

Regards,

Lee

fuzebox · 12-19-2004, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
From my understanding of php/MySQL it should actually be quite easy to do.

You simply have a 'key' based on the amount of seconds from a given date for example:

Based on the date/time of this post the key would be something like:

A - 1
B - 2
C - 3
D - 4
E - 5

etc etc

The script would write the data to MySQL using that key so that the word 'BAD' would appear as '214' in the MySQL database.

The script would know the key but, an affiliate program wouldnt.

Regards,

Lee

If the script "knows" the key, than the affiliate program also "knows" the key.

If the code is installed on the affiliate program's server, there are many ways to reverse engineer whatever methodthey are using to encode the data. Obviously with something like shaving there is enough of a financial incentive for them to do it.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fuzebox
If the script "knows" the key, than the affiliate program also "knows" the key.

If the code is installed on the affiliate program's server, there are many ways to reverse engineer whatever methodthey are using to encode the data. Obviously with something like shaving there is enough of a financial incentive for them to do it.

True enough but, its one more safeguard NATs would include to deter their users from shaving which right now, they dont have

Plus, im sure it would be possible to have the key write the data on the fly so that every time a sale was made, the key was generated dynamically based on the time of the sale.

Regards,

Lee

V_RocKs · 12-19-2004, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
Oh and ever so quickly, on the subject of editing the MySQL database to 'drop' sales etc.

Why not have the MySQL data encoded in addition to the php coding? Would certainly make it a LOT harder for dishonest programs to shave sales if you did.

Regards,

Lee

If you tried these techniques you would see posts here at GFY saying, "What the fuck [program]? I had a sale at 1am and then it just disapeared! This is not the first time either!!!"

When that post comes in, you get John sniffing around your ass for why a NATS program is possibly shaving... If it is, pull the license. Simple.

But here is the point. It isn't easy to shave and by far shaving isn't the worst thing you can do in the first place. The worst thing you can do is let your program run down and have shitty websites with cookie-cutter designs. Fail to update your members areas with fresh good content and fail to update your affiliate areas with fresh clean content.

So if you are going to post a thread about shit, talk about what is happening at a higher percentage and can be quantified. The fact is you don't know, first hand, of a program that is shaving for sure even if they are using an affiliate system that includes it as an option. But I am sure you know of some that piss their content money away on bling-bling and the program suffers and goes to shit. So talk about them.

Come on... Do us all a favor and tell us who they are! While you are at it, tell us who shaves!

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee

No offence Nathan but, there is absolutely no way that you could find out if a client of yours was shaving.. specifically if they didnt include the NATs tracking on their tour pages or, are you saying that you check every one of your clients paysites 24/7/365? Very impressive if you do, i would love to be able to afford someone to surf thousands of paysites every second, every hour, of every day

You are wrong, there are ways to do it, and we do them every day. There are consistancy things we can check at any time to see if something weird is going on. We do not need to monitor a program every second to figure it out.

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee

Again, no offence but you dont. It has already been stated that all a program has to d is utilize a php include into a tour page and you and the affiliates would be non the wiser.

You stated that, yes. Did I actually tell you that this would help you? As far as I remember I did not. Do tell me, what would you do in your so great php include to shave? Enlighten me.

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee

Now if you could figure a way out to have all the paysite tours included in an 'admin' area or have your script generate the tour pages.. that would be something worth marketing

This is not needed to protect against shaving.

Babagirls · 12-19-2004, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pradaboy
I bet you could, it's all about trust not software options

unfortuanly, thats the big problem in this biz.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
Do tell me, what would you do in your so great php include to shave? Enlighten me.

At the busiest traffic times of any given site..

You have a .php include on your join form which changes to a 'affiliate link code free' version of the join form.

In much the same way that you can specify a certain image shows on a certain day/time on a .php page.

Its not really rocket science.

Regards,

Lee

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
This is not needed to protect against shaving.

You are correct, what is needed are honest sponsors unfortunately, they are few and far between.

Would you not agree that enabling NATs to generate a paysites tour pages would be a much better way to monitor whether or not a tour is shaving?

Afterall, you could embed the NATs tracking script in EVERY tour page automatically.

Regards,

Lee

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
At the busiest traffic times of any given site..

You have a .php include on your join form which changes to a 'affiliate link code free' version of the join form.

In much the same way that you can specify a certain image shows on a certain day/time on a .php page.

Its not really rocket science.

Regards,

Lee

NATS would still register the sale to the correct affiliate.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
NATS would still register the sale to the correct affiliate.

How? There would be no way of checking the data being sent LOL

Do you not grasp what i am saying? The surfer is being shown a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT join page to the one being used by the NATs system.

Regards,

Lee

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
You are correct, what is needed are honest sponsors unfortunately, they are few and far between.

Would you not agree that enabling NATs to generate a paysites tour pages would be a much better way to monitor whether or not a tour is shaving?

Afterall, you could embed the NATs tracking script in EVERY tour page automatically.

Regards,

Lee

Since changing stuff on a tour does not let you shave around NATS, the answer to this is no.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
Since changing stuff on a tour does not let you shave around NATS, the answer to this is no.

LOL you really arent understanding what i am saying at all.

If there is NOTHING on a tour relating to NATs, how can you tell what is and what isnt being sent where? Simple.. you cant.

Regards,

Lee

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
How? There would be no way of checking the data being sent LOL

Do you not grasp what i am saying? The surfer is being shown a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT join page to the one being used by the NATs system.

Regards,

Lee

Considering that you would still use the same billers as with NATS, you would

1) Miss stats and membership management.
2) Have a sale register in NATS but no NATS join form associated with it which triggers a flag.
3) Other data from the biller might register in NATS but no NATS join form associated with it which triggers even more flags.

IF you would use a totally different biller, you would miss even more stats and membership management causing issues at a later point and with member access to the paysites.

You would also most likely lose more money than you gain because you lose the powerful cascading NATS can offer.

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
LOL you really arent understanding what i am saying at all.

If there is NOTHING on a tour relating to NATs, how can you tell what is and what isnt being sent where? Simple.. you cant.

Regards,

Lee

I answered this in my other post, so lets just stick to one about the same subject to not get totally confused.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
Considering that you would still use the same billers as with NATS, you would

1) Miss stats and membership management.
2) Have a sale register in NATS but no NATS join form associated with it which triggers a flag.
3) Other data from the biller might register in NATS but no NATS join form associated with it which triggers even more flags.

IF you would use a totally different biller, you would miss even more stats and membership management causing issues at a later point and with member access to the paysites.

You would also most likely lose more money than you gain because you lose the powerful cascading NATS can offer.

So you are in agreement that changing the join form / tour page would result in shaving and NATs not actually tracking an affiliate sale. Good.

Regards,

Lee

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
Considering that you would still use the same billers as with NATS, you would

Who said im using the same processors?

If im already cheating webmasters by shaving their traffic.. im certainly not going to use a processor that i have already setup in my installation of NATs.

Regards,

Lee

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
I answered this in my other post, so lets just stick to one about the same subject to not get totally confused.

This is the same topic.

You said you could track all affiliate data when using NATs.

Im saying that by changing the tour page.. you cant thus, an affiliate program can shave their affiliates, its the same point, just using a different example.

Regards,

Lee

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
So you are in agreement that changing the join form / tour page would result in shaving and NATs not actually tracking an affiliate sale. Good.

Regards,

Lee

LOL.. yes, you MIGHT be able to shave around 10 sales before so many flags have risen that you will have us asking you a LOT of very uncomfortable questions about what exactly you are doing there.

It depends a lot on what EXACTLY you are doing on the join pages and how you handle the join pages. And its going to be extremely hard (if not impossible) to do it in a way that NATS would not notice weirdness in the installation.

Also, it will be very noticable that a join is not NATS handled so resellers might notice it when checking out your tour and warn us about it also so we can take a look and verify.

Its not as easy as you think.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
It depends a lot on what EXACTLY you are doing on the join pages and how you handle the join pages. And its going to be extremely hard (if not impossible) to do it in a way that NATS would not notice weirdness in the installation.

Seriously, it wouldnt be to hard at all.

If a company wants to shave their webmasters, they will find a way, NATs in use or not.

Regards,

Lee

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
Who said im using the same processors?

If im already cheating webmasters by shaving their traffic.. im certainly not going to use a processor that i have already setup in my installation of NATs.

Regards,

Lee

So you will on top of losing money by nolonger being able to cascade, also lose money because of not pushing most of your sales to the same processors. You would also make it TOTALLY obvious that something fishy is going on because suddenly sales go through a totally different biller. So you will shave what? 15% to not make it deadly obvious in your stats, but you would also lose around 20% of your regular sales because of no cascading?

So you lose 5% because you shave, and you would make it easy for us to detect and kill your license and ruin your reputation in the industry, awesome idea ;)

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
Seriously, it wouldnt be to hard at all.

If a company wants to shave their webmasters, they will find a way, NATs in use or not.

Regards,

Lee

So you do agree that it is not as easy as you thought it was.

Great

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 06:11 AM

Quote:

So you will on top of losing money by nolonger being able to cascade, also lose money because of not pushing most of your sales to the same processors. You would also make it TOTALLY obvious that something fishy is going on because suddenly sales go through a totally different biller.

So you are saying there are no legitamate reasons why a sponsor wouldnt instantly change processors at a certain part of the day? Interesting.

Quote:

So you will shave what? 15% to not make it deadly obvious in your stats, but you would also lose around 20% of your regular sales because of no cascading?

If an affiliate program is shaving @ 15% and losing 20% of 'affiliate' sales, the sponsor program gains more in the long term. Simple mathematics tells us that a $3.95 trial paying out $35 loses the sponsor more money.

Its actually cost effective for a sponsor program to shave 15% of their affiliates sales.. they save $35 for each regular sale they do make PLUS the make money on the rebills.

Quote:

So you lose 5% because you shave

Lose 5% of a $3.95 sale or lose $35 from a $3.95 sale.. which is the option that works out better for the sponsor program here? ;)

Regards,

Lee

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
So you do agree that it is not as easy as you thought it was.

Great

No.

It is as simple as changing a tour page. Period.

Regards,

Lee

Johny Traffic · 12-19-2004, 06:14 AM

anyone can shave no matter what software they use, just by changeing the sign up page would do that.

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johny Traffic
anyone can shave no matter what software they use, just by changeing the sign up page would do that.

Apparently not, if they use NATs

Even though 90% of the people who have read this thread now realise it is that easy.

Regards,

Lee

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
You are correct, it is not impossible to shave with NATS.

Just wanted to quote you again for those who may have missed your agreeing with my facts.

Despite using smoke and mirrors to try to retract your agreement.

Regards,

Lee

Johny Traffic · 12-19-2004, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Apparently not, if they use NATs

Even though 90% of the people who have read this thread now realise it is that easy.

Regards,

Lee

I would have thought everyone would know that, wouldnt they? Or am I just being niave?

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johny Traffic
I would have thought everyone would know that, wouldnt they? Or am I just being niave?

Well it would seem a lot of webmasters think NATs is a system that makes shaving impossible.

This thread is educating those webmaster though

Regards,

Lee

Johny Traffic · 12-19-2004, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Well it would seem a lot of webmasters think NATs is a system that makes shaving impossible.

This thread is educating those webmaster though

Regards,

Lee.

well if someone cant see how easy it is to shave any system they shouldnt be a webmaster at all.

But there is a way round this if its something that bothers people so much, shall I tell, how you can make it imposible to shave?

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johny Traffic
well if someone cant see how easy it is to shave any system they shouldnt be a webmaster at all.

But there is a way round this if its something that bothers people so much, shall I tell, how you can make it imposible to shave?

Start your own paysite ;)

I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to shve themselves although, this is GFY so you never know ;)

Regards,

Lee

Johny Traffic · 12-19-2004, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Start your own paysite ;)

I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to shve themselves although, this is GFY so you never know ;)

Regards,

ah close but no cigar, impossible for a sponsor to shave you the affiliate.

You wanna know

European Lee · 12-19-2004, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johny Traffic
ah close but no cigar, impossible for a sponsor to shave you the affiliate.

You wanna know

There is no way.

If a sponsor wants to shave their affiliates, they WILL find a way.

Regards,

Lee

cayne · 12-19-2004, 06:32 AM

I think you're not able to tie your shoes....

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
So you are saying there are no legitamate reasons why a sponsor wouldnt instantly change processors at a certain part of the day? Interesting.

Actually, I did not say that. I said that it would be obvious if you switch from a NATS join and biller to a non-nats join and biller.

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee

If an affiliate program is shaving @ 15% and losing 20% of 'affiliate' sales, the sponsor program gains more in the long term. Simple mathematics tells us that a $3.95 trial paying out $35 loses the sponsor more money.

Its actually cost effective for a sponsor program to shave 15% of their affiliates sales.. they save $35 for each regular sale they do make PLUS the make money on the rebills.

Lose 5% of a $3.95 sale or lose $35 from a $3.95 sale.. which is the option that works out better for the sponsor program here? ;)

On a NATS controlled site, if you have a $3.95 trial join, converting to $34.95, using all features NATS offers to maximize your retention, lets say your average retention is only 1.5 months (which is very low). Meaning per member you make around $56,38.

You payout $35 leaving 21,38 for you.

Going by my example, shaving 15% off would mean you are really only paying $29.75 meaning you keep $26.63 instead. Considering now that due to the shaving you lose 20% of the sales while you shave since cascading is nolonger possible for those, means you lose 3% of all your sales or $1.69 per member. Meaning you only make $24.94.

On TOP of that your retention on those sales, considering you use the same join options, are going to drop a LOT compared to NATS, simply because of our features that we offer which will be very complicated to still use without using our join form. Lets say you lose 0.5 retention, keeping only 1 month on average, means you lose $17.48 on 15% of your sales which means $2.62 per sale. Meaning you now keep $22.32.

Ok, great, you just shaved your affiliates 15%, ruined your reputation because we have found that you shave and now you make $0 instead, and all that for NOT EVEN $1 per member?! Now thats awesome business thinking...

Johny Traffic · 12-19-2004, 06:34 AM

Quote:

There is no way.

If a sponsor wants to shave their affiliates, they WILL find a way.

Regards,

Lee

Your right, I guess, theres always a way.

But how about this. I guess you would need to be a big player, who is trusted.

Take CCBill for example. You host the tour including the sign up page (just before you get taken through to CCBills secure server) with the members area of the tour still being pointed towards the sponsors members area.

Nathan · 12-19-2004, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by European Lee
Just wanted to quote you again for those who may have missed your agreeing with my facts.

Despite using smoke and mirrors to try to retract your agreement.

Regards,

Lee

I am not retracting my agreement. I still agree it is possible to shave even if a program uses NATS.

You will just not get away with it ;)

12-19-2004, 03:12 AM	#159
fuzebox making it rain Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: seattle Posts: 22,117	This thread is ridiculous, no one is even arguing the same thing. For once I agree with Lee, and understand the point he's making... Even though NATS has not claimed that it is impossible to shave with their product, the general opinion of the average webmaster is that NATS = no shave. I have no idea who originated this opinion, but I have heard through word-of-mouth, and even read posts such as "xxxxx is using NATS (so no shaving)", and I am constantly amused by it... I believe the point of the thread is, an affiliate should not promote a program using NATS just because they believe they will not be shaved because of the affiliate software, and nor should a program feel they have to switch to NATS to gain affiliate trust. Unfortunately these ideas have appeared within the last few months, although through no fault of the NATS team. Last edited by fuzebox; 12-19-2004 at 03:13 AM..

12-19-2004, 03:45 AM	#163
European Lee Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Daytona Beach Posts: 7,133	Oh and ever so quickly, on the subject of editing the MySQL database to 'drop' sales etc. Why not have the MySQL data encoded in addition to the php coding? Would certainly make it a LOT harder for dishonest programs to shave sales if you did. Regards, Lee __________________ YOUR TRAFFIC IS SAFE WITH US - CONDOM CASH PUTTING THE GAY ADULT INDUSTRY ON YOUR PC!! AFFORDABLE 2257 COMPLIANT GAY + BI CONTENT

12-19-2004, 06:14 AM	#188
Johny Traffic Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 5,461	anyone can shave no matter what software they use, just by changeing the sign up page would do that. __________________ hosted flv's, hosted galleries, morphing rss feeds, free content, free sites, hosted blog

12-19-2004, 06:32 AM	#197
cayne My time is coming... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe --- eMail: service(at)badasscompany.com --- ICQ: 60288510 Posts: 7,476	I think you're not able to tie your shoes.... __________________ If lesbian anal is wrong, I don't want to be right.