Ic3m4nZ

50 designers.

modelgigtalent

Yes, if the person asks for them. They are paying the designer and all the material then belongs to the client.

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TheSenator

yes...but for a small fee

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eroswebmaster

really?
so when you take a models pic for exclusive pics do you not only give up the pics and negatives but the filters you used, the exact lighting you used all of the elements that went into taking the girl's pic?

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blackmonsters

Hmmmm, interesting.

Could you email me your copy of the Windows XP source code, I seem to have misplaced mine.

Please use this email: [email protected]

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4Pics

without the psd's I won't buy the work, I paid for that design and own the rights to how it was created. I've never used a psd to make more designs,templates.logos anything, since typically I buy something just for that task. I got burned in the past because I didnt get the psd and the designer is gone, so now I am stuck with a logo that says 100% FREE when the site isn't free anymore (no free trials).

I specifically make sure they provide psd or i'd find a new designer (if I felt I needed it).

Why should a designer charge me $500 and use the same template he used 50 times already and then dick around and take a week to make something? How is that fair? I'm paying for a original design not a mod of someone elses.

Anyhow that's my take on it.

eroswebmaster

Okay in refrene to the first part:
As I stated in a post above..if you purchase exclusive pics do you get a list of exactly how a photographer shot the model on top of the pics /negatives etc?
No...you only get the work.

Your 2nd about paying $500 for a design that could be modded out...I don't think the fact that you have the psds in hand will alter the fact that some designers may reuse that template again.

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slackologist

you get what you pay for.

$tandaman

The psd cost is already factored in into everything we do. We do not use the same psds to make new projects (unless they are not accepted, and we own the rights)

We always give out psds when clients request them.. very often we just take care of the work at n/c for them.

But the designer SHOULD give out psds if it's not discussed, and he should factor in the cost (if he's smart enough) and if he does NOT plan to give it out, they should be uprfont with the client. Honesty is the best policy, no matter which way you choose to conduct business.

MGC you are right, people can use psds to create templates of their own... but i have learned a lot of times they just butcher the design, because they cannot do same quality work we do, and they come back to us. At the same time, i dont want to be bothered with changing text, removing small stuff or cloning a section to create a new one in a site... this makes it easier on me.

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eroswebmaster

very good points..as I stated before I always have given up the psds and it' s never even crossed my mind until today.

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blackmonsters

Sure and when you buy a Picasso he gives you all the brushes and custom mixed hues along with all his inner thoughts he used to produce your painting.

You pay for the product; not the fucking tools.
You want a change to the logo, no problem, send payment via paypal. If I'm dead then you fucked up; next time hire somebody that looks like they are going to live longer.

So you want to tell everyone I did the logo and then use the PSD file to edit it and fuck it up and everyone will think the shitty results are my work? Nah...no thanks.

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Sharky

LOL.. good thread.

It's standard policy to charge for PSD's. We have some larger clients who we openly supply them to.. however these clients have given us consistant repeat work over time. They won't take the PSD's and create a new site out of them. They use it for simple changes to the existing site.

In our mainstream work, It's not even an issue. I had one client ask me, up front, if he could negotiate the price down on the source files so his in-house designers could edit the work for future projects. He knew there was a cost associated with the source files, it's common practice in mainstream.

The Adult industry is different. Everyone is used to getting things for free or paying pennies on the dollar for a hard days work. As business changes, that mindset will have to evolve. You pay for not only work, but value. If you just pay for work, you will lose the longterm value of a relationship.

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machinegunkelly

You just hit 1000 dude !

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eroswebmaster

Great perspective on things...thx.

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Sharky

:-)

Try going to a business consultant and pay him per hour. He will laugh in your face. He charges based upon the value he brings to your company.

Designers do the same.
What's the difference between my company and every other design company out there? I've been in this industry since 1996. I've been around. I've seen what converts. My company has consistantly designed sites that work.

Why can MikeW charge more than any other adult design company? His designs are proven to work.

It's worth it to pay $3000 for a site that outconverts a $500 design, even if the "quality" of work is the same. The $500 designer might not have an understanding of what converts.


The same goes for PSD files... My PSD files are worth more than some newbie designer's who is lowballing his prices to build a portfolio.

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Joesho

Yes, the customer paid for them.

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Ironhorse

I'm sure you are breaking many laws doing this, all fonts have copyrights on them and most stock photography licenses are not extended freely to all your clients, most licenses only cover 'as part of design' I know this certainly is the case for adult content

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bhutocracy

I can understand wanting a monopoly on post-purchase update income.. but 30% is fucking extreme.

kalen

Lots of stock photography sites are royalty-free, so this doesnt apply as long as you transfer the rights to the client when you're done designing with the images.

As for psd's, yeah, those things are precious, they hold secrets that give designers their edge in many cases, which is how we make our money. Why are we going to give that away? You purchased a web page or print design from us, and you made no mention of our psds.

Of course if the client did mention the psds up front, then negotiation would have to ensue, but just giving the files away to anyone is self-destructive.

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eroswebmaster

I honestly didn't know this would be such a touchy subject ...but there has been some valuable insight shared here.

I've learned a lot from this thread.

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bhutocracy

In adult anyways. But I have a lot more respect for him than someone designing $400 tours.

Shoplifter

It's a must. Anything can happen and changes are required quickly.

Particularily it seems the processors are wanting changes made to join pages every few months as some new rule comes into play.

bhutocracy

This is exactly the point. It's common place in mainstream, then again so is paying 10k for a site and most of the cheapskates around here don't realise that... I'm frankly shocked someone has the balls to ask for 30% for the psd's in this market. But kudos to him, I'd rather see another professional like him in the market than another 100 college kids designing for beer money.

Paul Markham

Agreed, if I'm paying for a design I'm buying the whole thing. If I want to change a colour, picture, text I can do when I want to not go back to the designer every time.

If the designer does not want to give up the psd files, he/she should state so before entering into the deal.

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Basic_man

Yeah same opinion here!

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Rorschach

I view it in the same way as software. If I pay to have software custom written (not that I do, I write my own ;-) then I would expect the full source to go with it. If I need to change something minor, I want to be able to do it myself, and I don't want to be locked into having to work with a busy programmer or designer who might not have time to effect changes straight away. If the contracter totally drops the ball, I at least want to have something I can take to someone else to get fixed (be it psds or source code) - or else I'm left with nothing.

Paul Markham

You don't hand over your computer and Photoshop program do you?

When we shoot exclusive the client gets raw and edited images/film.

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eroswebmaster

no but when you had over psds you hand over layer styles that you developed over time or developed originally for that work to produce an effect or look your client wanted.

So the point is you don't hand over your filters..you don't hand me your "styles."

BUT POINT OF FACT...I DO GIVE MY CLIENTS PSDS...LOL THIS WAS JUST A QUESTION THAT CAME TO MY MIND.

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JulianSosa

Yes I think PSD should be given up. It all depends on the original aggrement though. Maybe designers should charge more for PSD's but I peronally would want them for anything I bought.
Who knows where a designer will be in 6 months or 6 days when I need to change something.

Ironhorse

What you're not considering is you are buying a website design. What if I used something other than Photoshop to do the layered design, that throws everyone's PSD theories right out the window.

Giving out PSDs is a courtesy not a requirement unless it was part of the original deal. The only exception here is something like a logo which requires a vector file.

As a rule I gladly give out the PSD IF they are requested AT THE BEGINNING of the project, if the client drops it on me at the end, and I have to go and flatten layers and do extra work to present the file to the client as something usable, this takes extra time in my schedule and as such will take extra $ from the client, it's only fair. Again the exception is the PSD was part of the original deal which gives the designer a chance to adjust their price.

If the client specifically requests that I don't flatten my layers so they can imitate and duplicate the styles that took me 7 years to develop, again they need to specify in advance so I can develop entirely new styles for the client and certainly will have an effect on the price.

Some people think it's fair they can get a $300 cash discount and then also get the source files for free? Like Sharky says, this almost never happens in mainstream.

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bhutocracy

just use 3rd party filters instead of layer styles

twistyneck

No psd = no deal. Period.

crescentx

PSDs not being given really never occurred to me before, even in mainstream. But then again finding mainstream clients willing to pay the $ for a good design wasn't so easy where I was doing this either.

I do some design here and there for people, and will gladly give up PSDs with the project. I don't want five million requests for a typographical change piling up at little or no cost to them if I have other things going on. Fonts, well if they're shareware or freeware, no problem. If not, you can't do that.

You may develop custom layer styles, etc., but in most cases someone buying an Adobe design would take one look at 100 layers and close the file, grab a drink and call you for help before monkeying with anything. It's about subtlety, compositing, a million different effects which someone looking at your file might get a glimpse up its skirts of but not the full picture. Just because you've Quickmasked out the background in a model doesn't mean someone can look at that and do a more subtle job than Jack the Ripper. If you have trademark effects, conceal them and make only the obvious stuff like blending options visible.

Most of Photoshop can't be taught with just one file. It takes years of dealing with Adobe and its quirks, anguish and then ecstasy when new things like layers come out and you learn to use them - it's as much an art as anything, and layer styles/templates don't make someone using the PSD any more convincing than handing someone a camera who watched Ansel Adams take pictures. It takes a special creative personality to figure this stuff out.

Should be a no-brainer.

-doug

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Living For Today

I would expect to get them. Really it should be agreed on before the work commences though.

kowntafit

You pay for what you ask for, and if that is a logo then that is what you get. I wouldn't give the PSDs unless that was part of the deal. Perhaps if they asked but I wouldn't feel like I was obliged to. Unless its in the agreement then I think its up to the designer to do what he wants.

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=^..^=

Good point by Ironhorse:
the client needs to tell you IN ADVANCE that they require the files

many things I make I have to merge a lot of layers etc to achieve the effects desired.
Often text has to be raterised to add special filters etc
They can't be edited by anyone else

This is one reason i tell clients they should pay the little extra upfront and get the "free update" deal.
Coz there's no way in hell they can change many parts of the design. - And if *I* am gonna be stuck with having to update it - well that's my precious time and time is money.

BTW Eros - after this thread r you gonna offer PSD files or not?

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Ironhorse

Hey Kitty will you and Firehorse be in Phoenix? I'd love to say Hi, I'll keep an eye out for Jesus, i'm sharing room with this other Jesus. Jesus I'll be surrounded by Jesus.

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4Pics

I disagree, the psd's should be provided if asked for. The designer does not need to offer them but if asked they should have them and give them.

Ironhorse

I think we both said we would provide them, but there are many complexities in layered design many customers don't consider, please read my post again. And Kitty talks about compositing layers just by default, it's a little bit tough giving editable layers when they aren't available. You may feel you are entitled to a PSD but you can't control a designers work style, unless of course you discuss this at the beginning of a project, which we both stress and there are no issues with that.

Additionally I keep backups of all my files and they are always available, like you said, a customer has to just ask usually and it's no sweat. But there are the considerations that I mention above.

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smack

as long as payment is made in full i have no problem sending over psd files. i don't see that it's totally neccisary. kind of like a programmer giving up his source code. but obviously they paid you to do the design because they could not do it themselves, so therefore i would assume that there isn't much one psd file could teach them that would jeapordize your buisness.

additionally, they paid you to do the design, so they own the whole thing, lock stock and barrel i suppose.

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Roald

I mostly include them if wanted without extra costs. But if they don't ask for it I don't give 'm simple as that

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thekebie

I think they should. If I was a designer I would want to give my client the freedom the change things they may not like.

However if it is something like selling a mass amount of cheap TGP designs for $20 each or whatever I wouldn't, because you are probably using the same template and changing stuff, and your designs are so cheap you would want that person to come back for more.

With an expensive design I would be upset if I didn't get the PSD.

abyss_al

nope - it's like a photographer giving out his negatives

if you must - flatten most of the layers before doing so

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unconnected

If a designer doesn't give the PSD files up, then the client really has no absolute way to prove he paid for the work

- you can fake an invoice, but you can't fake a PSD file with all those layers..

if you could you may as well have designed it yourself

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abyss_al

ur wrong - if the designer gives the psd file - the client can turn and not pay - now that he has the layers to 'say' i made it myself

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hova

tough question to answer. when I buy designs I ask for the .psd files and I am always willing to pay a bit more to get them.
But I dont think a designer MUST give you the files, but when you asked for them you will probably get them.

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rounders

I believe u should

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eroswebmaster

I only give up files html and all once a client has paid and not before...unless it's a steady client or someone in this industry who I know is trustworthy.

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=^..^=

Ironhorse - no we wont be in phoenix
maybe vegas next year we've had 2 years constant travle we are having a year off

I liek to pint out that even tho I do merge many layers etc etc
i backup all work in stages
so I can go back and edit most (to a certain degree)
a lot of stuff I make in different files then import into the design
so one site has dozens of PSD files so I can change many parts without changing whole site.

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