Do you feel a designer should give up his psd files to the clients? - Page 4 - GoFuckYourself.com

machinegunkelly · 03-25-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by qwebecexpo

I agree, when you go to a restaurant you buy a plate of food, not the recipee...

I never give my PSD files unless it is clearly stated on the contract and the price goes with that...

It is also clearly stated in our terms... If the guys is not comfortable with that, he can go to somebody else... It's that simple..

I am more tham happy to do minor changes FREE OF CHARGE for customers, this is my after sale service, but as MGK said we are selling designs. not designs lessons.

This is even more true for .FLA files as well...

AMEN mutherfucker!

about time someone sees my point

blackmonsters · 03-25-2004, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by machinegunkelly

Dude from that shit I saw of your toons ,
My 5 year old has better knowledge of photoshop .

Well, why don't you get your 5 yr old to make your PSD files and quit bitching about it.

machinegunkelly · 03-25-2004, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmonsters

Well, why don't you get your 5 yr old to make your PSD files and quit bitching about it.

I use photoshop 7 ,

please tell me how to lock my layer style on a text header , and have the text completely editable ?

I may be missing something ..

Wheres the link to that crap you do ?
I dont like to put a man down , but you asked for it and your clearly just a fuckin idiot .

LA Mike · 03-25-2004, 04:06 PM

Its simple.. If you want them tell them before hand. If they dont want to give them to you then use someone who will

blackmonsters · 03-25-2004, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by machinegunkelly

I use photoshop 7 ,

please tell me how to lock my layer style on a text header , and have the text completely editable ?

I may be missing something ..

Wheres the link to that crap you do ?
I dont like to put a man down , but you asked for it and your clearly just a fuckin idiot .

The reason you think I'm an idiot is because you don't have enough brains to read my post correctly.

Click on layers menu, and you will see several options to configure settings and these are the options to flatten.
It makes very little sense to flatten the text unless it's already been rendered (layers/type/render layer) which at that point you can't change it anyway from the PSD file that is delivered to you, provider the designer removed the "actions" and those actions would have to recent or you would be destroying the other work in the file by trying to unrender the layer.
No designer is going to flatten straight text, only the images that test is superimposed upon. Which is the only thing you should desire to change(as in price, free offer, URL, etc...)

If you need to change the image then you need a new logo.

Enough of this, you think I'm stupid but I'm telling you how to use the software.

stevent37 · 03-25-2004, 04:28 PM

gee this was actually turning in to a decent discussion, I knew it couldnt last.

SiMpLe · 03-25-2004, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by qwebecexpo

I agree, when you go to a restaurant you buy a plate of food, not the recipee...

I never give my PSD files unless it is clearly stated on the contract and the price goes with that...

It is also clearly stated in our terms... If the guys is not comfortable with that, he can go to somebody else... It's that simple..

I am more tham happy to do minor changes FREE OF CHARGE for customers, this is my after sale service, but as MGK said we are selling designs. not designs lessons.

This is even more true for .FLA files as well...

That has nothing to do with the issue. The food is of no value after about an hour. The site owner needs to spends a long time regaining costs and the site is NOT disposable.

again

axelcat · 03-25-2004, 04:35 PM

Brujah · 03-25-2004, 04:48 PM

No PSDs on a tour design ? No sale.

bhutocracy · 03-25-2004, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevent37

Its not like mainstream, mainstream Major players pay more (major corporations) for design. But mainstraem mid and low level players pay pennys compared to what adult mid and low level players pay. Joes resaurant would never pay a designer 2k to do his website. Sue the sluts new adult site would. There is no comparing the two.

you don't have a clue of what you're talking about.

Joe's Resturant will pay *far* more than a mid level adult player.. I can get a site done here for $300-500 no problem whatsoever. In mainstream clients don't have the instant buyer's market with romanian and college kid downward pressure on prices, and a dozen guys in their bedrooms underbidding each other 5 minutes after a job thread has been posted. The average small business website is around 1-2k, mid around 5-10k and large anywhere from 10-100k and that doesn't take into account hugely inflated hosting costs, domain reselling and other things that mainstream businesses make cash on that adult designers can't make off webmasters.

The only very cheap thing in mainstream is when clients are charged for one of those single page directory "sites".

Mainstream clients pay more for logos than adult clients pay for whole sites with logos..

The average adult site is around 600-800 with a logo and everything. 1k is high in adult, designers here would kills each other for a shot at a 2k job.

jmk · 03-25-2004, 05:55 PM

make it clear before the job

bhutocracy · 03-25-2004, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OldJeff
By law anything made for a company is the property of that company, either salary or contract work, the copyright for whatever it is becomes the property of the company, not the designer.

If you make a tour for company X and then use the same tour for company Y you are guilty of copyright infringment even though you made both tours.

Thats not correct. Depending on local laws I guess though. Work you do as a salaried employee is generally the property of the company, but the companys usually have to have specific clauses in their employment contracts specifying this, so that ex employees can't use code and whatnot they developed there for new employers, I remember this specifically as I along with everyone else at my company was made to sign a new contract with new provisions in the late 90's which stated that the work was owned by the company, it's not by default, otherwise we wouldn't have had to sign new contracts with those specific clauses. However Australia might be different to the US.

bhutocracy · 03-25-2004, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevent37

No Thats right, when a designer is payed for work the work belongs to the person that paid for it not the designer.

Actually no. It wholly depends on what the person is buying. If you are being contracted to provide a website, then no, the PSD does NOT belong to the client. The PSD is NOT the website. Unless you have a prior agreement there is no legal recourse for the client. However it would be rare for a designer not to offer it gratis as part of the service.

Zeora · 03-25-2004, 06:08 PM

if i give the file up i usually leave the file in basic layers like image, text and background. but if they are cheap then i give it flattened hehe

bhutocracy · 03-25-2004, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bhutocracy

Actually no. It wholly depends on what the person is buying. If you are being contracted to provide a website, then no, the PSD does NOT belong to the client. The PSD is NOT the website. Unless you have a prior agreement there is no legal recourse for the client. However it would be rare for a designer not to offer it gratis as part of the service.

And if local laws differ I would love to see how that plays out over who's duristiction wins out, the country it was created in or the country that contracted the work. That said, most of it comes down to contracts or if you're silly enough not to use contracts the terms used to contract the work over email or icq, If the client refers to the "design i'm paying for" instead of "website im paying for" then they have legal recourse to go after the psds. Although this is a storm in a tea cup over a $600 design.

Fukeneh · 03-25-2004, 06:44 PM

if i am paying you to develop a design for me, i would expect the PSDs, with NO flattening, PERIOD!

if i want to diseminate my product that I purchased then that is my prerogative. i can do anything i want with it, including making galleries, banners, etc, based on layers and styles nabbed from the tour design. i own the likeness rights to my design correct? therefor i can use its likeness in anyway that i see fit.

i never even knew there were designers that didnt give up PSDs, as you on contracted to do the work, therefore the work you do is property of the client. i always assumed everyone knew exactly what OldJeff stated.

If i payed a coder to develop a script or application for me, i would expect full sourcecode as well. Granted i can change that too, but that again is my prerogative as i am the owner of the product.

eroswebmaster · 03-25-2004, 06:50 PM

wow this is still going on? LOL

illini · 03-25-2004, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fukeneh
if i am paying you to develop a design for me, i would expect the PSDs, with NO flattening, PERIOD!

if i want to diseminate my product that I purchased then that is my prerogative. i can do anything i want with it, including making galleries, banners, etc, based on layers and styles nabbed from the tour design. i own the likeness rights to my design correct? therefor i can use its likeness in anyway that i see fit.

i never even knew there were designers that didnt give up PSDs, as you on contracted to do the work, therefore the work you do is property of the client. i always assumed everyone knew exactly what OldJeff stated.

If i payed a coder to develop a script or application for me, i would expect full sourcecode as well. Granted i can change that too, but that again is my prerogative as i am the owner of the product.

Actually it is not your perogative. You paid for a site design...not the right to disect the design to create banners, galleries, and possibbly other sites. You're taking a paycheck away from the original designer. If you are not talented enough to do the original work in photoshop, then tough. You'll have to pay someone that has that talent. Of course all of this should have been outlined in the contract.....

I've worked as an art director in the commercial non-adult industry for years. We have never supplied clients with the PSD's for any project. Our PSD's would give the client the potential to create several variations by making changes with the text, hue, saturation, etc....basically creating new designs that they would have never been create without that file.

Unfortunately, it appears few designers are using contracts here....big mistake. Our contract clearly states what the client is buying...whether it's a logo, a layout, a billboard, whatever. However, we also provide the rider that we'll be happy to do minor retouches on the work to suit the needs of the client. If those "changes" however are going to be more of a redesign that's when they pay. We never give out raw materials for projects...exactly for the reasons discussed in previous posts, the client with little to no talent would then be able to take our work and rework it into a new design. I'm not going to allow someone to take $$ from me.

If a client wants minor changes to their design we're more than happy to provide it. However, if the work goes above an hour we charge, it's only fair, designers are trying to make a living too...trust me, it ain't easy.

I've seen several posts comparing a designers PSD's to a programmers script. That's not a good comparison...a better one would be a photographer taking some exclusive photos for you. If you decided you wanted to change something would you expect the photographer to supply all models and props to you?

(Wouldn't it be great if they did?)

eroswebmaster · 03-25-2004, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by illini

I've seen several posts comparing a designers PSD's to a programmers script. That's not a good comparison...a better one would be a photographer taking some exclusive photos for you. If you decided you wanted to change something would you expect the photographer to supply all models and props to you?

(Wouldn't it be great if they did?)

Interesting analogy.

blackmonsters · 03-25-2004, 08:43 PM

A lot of people here truly need to get a copy of the copyright law and read it. So much of what is said is stuff that is commonly belived but completely false.

Take the example of the original Napster, they thought they were legal and I laughed my ass off when I heard them say that. They simply did not read the law and chosed to believe folk law.

About the debate about who owns the design?
I can tell you this; if a client defaces a design after he has paid for it the designer can sue in any court and win with ease.
You can't "do what ever you want" with it; there are limits.
If the client uses the design in a way to defame the designer they can actually face criminal charges in the state of New York.

See part of the mis-understanding here is that you can't really buy a design; you can buy an exclusive right to use the design and you can buy the copyright to the design from the designer. So if you really want to cover your ass you should be telling the designer that you are buying the copyright to the design that he delivered, which I agree is almost non-sense because what designer is stupid enough to ruin their rep buy claiming a right to the work he sold you? It'll never happen unless you make a T-shirt out of it that sales millions and the designer is a resentful looser of a bastard. But in that case you would be in a bad spot so if going to court choose a jury trail because the judge will just fuck you up because you didn't secure a copyright. If you want to "do whatever you want" with it then you better state in your contract that you are buying the copyright.

If that make no sense to you then try this: Buy a painting from a famous artist then "do what ever you want" like print posters and sell them and see how long before you get fucked up for copyright violation. All you bought was the work; not the rights to the work. Motherfuckers who don't understand that always end up in court crying.

This is what lawyers are for. The law is complicated and most here don't truly understand it. I know a little more than average because of legal hurdles I has faced before but I am still no expert so if you think you really know the law in and out you're probably just suffering from a big ego.

Ironhorse · 03-25-2004, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OldJeff

Not true because the copyright of the design belongs to the company that paid for it.

Your thoughts are interesting but way of base. It's a case by case basis based on the agreement between designer and customer. There is no law you are describing that can tell me as a merchant how much of my product I license.

Ironhorse · 03-25-2004, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by magicmike

No its not.

What he's saying is as an employee or contracter to a company the work you do is theirs not yours.

If you hire someone to program a script or design a website then they are working on behalf of the company that is paying them and the company owns the copyrights not the individual.

If you have some other previous arrangement than thats a different story.

You are wrong also. Unless you are ready to pay me $75 per hour, you are simply buying a design, nothing more, and so don't have any rights but what is stated in the TOS. Mine clearly states I own portfolio rights, so that's the agreement we are operating under.

There is some misconception in customers that somehow you are paying for my time, this is incorrect unless that's the agreement we have.

Doctor Dre · 03-25-2004, 09:46 PM

Depends of what kind of job . If the client need to print then I'l hold . If he ask me nicely I'l probably give it out in most cases

eroswebmaster · 03-25-2004, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ironhorse

You are wrong also. Unless you are ready to pay me $75 per hour, you are simply buying a design, nothing more, and so don't have any rights but what is stated in the TOS. Mine clearly states I own portfolio rights, so that's the agreement we are operating under.

There is some misconception in customers that somehow you are paying for my time, this is incorrect unless that's the agreement we have.

It would be interesting to get a copyright lawyers take on this...I understand what you're talking about but won't beging to pretend i know thelaw in this area.

stevent37 · 03-26-2004, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by illini

I've seen several posts comparing a designers PSD's to a programmers script. That's not a good comparison...a better one would be a photographer taking some exclusive photos for you. If you decided you wanted to change something would you expect the photographer to supply all models and props to you?

(Wouldn't it be great if they did?)

No thats way of base when you buy the pics you are buying a limited use lisc agreement. Most designers sell there work out right with no lisc agreement. There is no Implied use law that covers internet creations that I am aware of ( if so please provide me a link and I will be happy to admit Im wrong). If you want to lisc the creation instead of sealing it out right ( like most adult photogs do) then it must be stated in your TOS otherwise you are selling your creation out right.

Ironhorse · 03-26-2004, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eroswebmaster

It would be interesting to get a copyright lawyers take on this...I understand what you're talking about but won't beging to pretend i know thelaw in this area.

Obviously this industry is in dire need of some regulation and I am all for it, but as I pointed out yesterday, this industry still operates in the 'wild west' as far as business practices and rules are concerned.

One thing is sure, more designers need to require their clients to sign TOS before proceeding with projects, however I've had plenty customer completely ignore this very simple request with the understanding that if I pushed the issue, they would go to someone who doesn't insist on complicated business procedures like 'a contract'..

eroswebmaster · 03-26-2004, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ironhorse

Obviously this industry is in dire need of some regulation and I am all for it, but as I pointed out yesterday, this industry still operates in the 'wild west' as far as business practices and rules are concerned.

One thing is sure, more designers need to require their clients to sign TOS before proceeding with projects, however I've had plenty customer completely ignore this very simple request with the understanding that if I pushed the issue, they would go to someone who doesn't insist on complicated business procedures like 'a contract'..

Well my TOS is just about finished...needs some tweaking here and there...it's something that people will have to agree to.

I think in the long term you'll find those who don't wish to handle business in a professional manager you probably didn't want to end up doing biz with to begin with.

stevent37 · 03-26-2004, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ironhorse

One thing is sure, more designers need to require their clients to sign TOS before proceeding with projects, however I've had plenty customer completely ignore this very simple request with the understanding that if I pushed the issue, they would go to someone who doesn't insist on complicated business procedures like 'a contract'..

Well said but that is my point. When they refuse to sign you now have the option of dropping them as a client or doing the work knowing there is no implied use law covering web sites.

I dont disagree that its shady to use a design you paid for over and over again just tweaking it to make it look slightly different.

BUT there is no implied use law covring web site design that I know off so weather its shady its one thing, weather its illegal is another.

eroswebmaster · 03-26-2004, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevent37

Well said but that is my point. When they refuse to sign you now have the option of dropping them as a client or doing the work knowing there is no implied use law covering web sites.

I dont disagree that its shady to use a design you paid for over and over again just tweaking it to make it look slightly different.

BUT there is no implied use law covring web site design that I know off so weather its shady its one thing, weather its illegal is another.

You say "that you know of," however it doesn't mean pre-existing copyright laws do not cover this issue already.

Kicker · 03-26-2004, 08:08 AM

03-25-2004, 04:48 PM	#159
Brujah Beer Money Baron Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: brujah / gmail Posts: 22,157	No PSDs on a tour design ? No sale. __________________ Free Premium Domain Lists and Tools at Clickmojo.com For Sale: Obscenity.com

03-25-2004, 06:08 PM	#164
Zeora Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Art Town Posts: 14	if i give the file up i usually leave the file in basic layers like image, text and background. but if they are cheap then i give it flattened hehe __________________ www.zeora.com

03-25-2004, 06:50 PM	#167
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03-25-2004, 08:43 PM	#170
blackmonsters Making PHP work Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: 🌎🌅🌈🌇 Posts: 20,589	A lot of people here truly need to get a copy of the copyright law and read it. So much of what is said is stuff that is commonly belived but completely false. Take the example of the original Napster, they thought they were legal and I laughed my ass off when I heard them say that. They simply did not read the law and chosed to believe folk law. About the debate about who owns the design? I can tell you this; if a client defaces a design after he has paid for it the designer can sue in any court and win with ease. You can't "do what ever you want" with it; there are limits. If the client uses the design in a way to defame the designer they can actually face criminal charges in the state of New York. See part of the mis-understanding here is that you can't really buy a design; you can buy an exclusive right to use the design and you can buy the copyright to the design from the designer. So if you really want to cover your ass you should be telling the designer that you are buying the copyright to the design that he delivered, which I agree is almost non-sense because what designer is stupid enough to ruin their rep buy claiming a right to the work he sold you? It'll never happen unless you make a T-shirt out of it that sales millions and the designer is a resentful looser of a bastard. But in that case you would be in a bad spot so if going to court choose a jury trail because the judge will just fuck you up because you didn't secure a copyright. If you want to "do whatever you want" with it then you better state in your contract that you are buying the copyright. If that make no sense to you then try this: Buy a painting from a famous artist then "do what ever you want" like print posters and sell them and see how long before you get fucked up for copyright violation. All you bought was the work; not the rights to the work. Motherfuckers who don't understand that always end up in court crying. This is what lawyers are for. The law is complicated and most here don't truly understand it. I know a little more than average because of legal hurdles I has faced before but I am still no expert so if you think you really know the law in and out you're probably just suffering from a big ego. __________________ Get paid, get tools, get going with Camsoda Join Chaturbate get your cut of the pie

03-26-2004, 08:08 AM	#180
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03-25-2004, 04:06 PM	#154
LA Mike Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 3,056	Its simple.. If you want them tell them before hand. If they dont want to give them to you then use someone who will

03-25-2004, 04:28 PM	#156
stevent37 Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: USA Posts: 266	gee this was actually turning in to a decent discussion, I knew it couldnt last.

03-25-2004, 04:35 PM	#158
axelcat Adult Locals Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: West Coast Posts: 25,450	yes

03-25-2004, 05:55 PM	#161
jmk Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,391	make it clear before the job

03-25-2004, 06:44 PM	#166
Fukeneh Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Location: Location: Posts: 1,245	if i am paying you to develop a design for me, i would expect the PSDs, with NO flattening, PERIOD! if i want to diseminate my product that I purchased then that is my prerogative. i can do anything i want with it, including making galleries, banners, etc, based on layers and styles nabbed from the tour design. i own the likeness rights to my design correct? therefor i can use its likeness in anyway that i see fit. i never even knew there were designers that didnt give up PSDs, as you on contracted to do the work, therefore the work you do is property of the client. i always assumed everyone knew exactly what OldJeff stated. If i payed a coder to develop a script or application for me, i would expect full sourcecode as well. Granted i can change that too, but that again is my prerogative as i am the owner of the product.