I don't think I claimed it was impossible... and your wikipedia quote re-enforces my statement that thermite welding is performed in large, industrial steel and eletrical conduit conditions, not inside, and doesn't in any way confirm your claim that it's "common sense" that thermite was used in the construction of the WTC - although that's not impossible, and I reiterate that the levels of types of thermite and thermate should not be in a normal office/building fire.


First, your "billions" is ridiculous. Second, all crashed airliners have had their parts collected and reassembled under warehouse conditions to help their investigation.

Before shipping off the girders and wreckage of the buildings, they should have had a fire engineer forensics team in there after which any and all tagged parts and then some would have been carted off to warehouses and other guarded lab environments for closer scrutiny.

Well it pissed off quite a few potential investigators, from FEMA, who were allowed a "tourist trip" hands-off tour of the pit, to qualified fire and other forensics engineers who had never seen a violation of NFPA code before. This included the Association of Fire Investigators and the International Arson Investigators.

Violation or negligent misapplication of the code is punishable by grievous fines, imprisonment or both depending on the severity of the offense.

The editor of Fire Engineering magazine weighed in with his opinion: http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...stigation.html

Ive already said too much, His ass was bleeding however.

awww fuck, I need a gun. :winkwink:

because all the terrorists had to do was board a plane, take it over and steer it into the biggest landmarks in the skyline.

making whole plane loads of people vanish, staging phone calls from inside the plane. the people required to load and board the plane, the people required to rig the towers with explosives, the people required to cover it up afterwards. The media who were also apparantly in on it, The Jews etc etc

you force all those people to be involved by the nature of your arguments, you bring them in as excess baggage.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

I could'nt give a fuck what the US government says, especially what some dumbass republican president says.

The real government conspiracy occured in the years following 911 with the patriot act and the invasion of Iraq. I was involved and giving my support to movements trying to stop this and unlike you I was not 10 years old at the time.

not very well since dumbass sheep like yourself are too busy arguing over stupid distractions to accomplish real change in the world.

Listen very carefully to what your saying here.

"Large, industrial steel, and electrical conduits".

The entire complex including the the towers were built on large, industrial steel. Fifty thousand people worked in this building, it has it's own zip code, and a massive amount of electrical and telecommunications conduits. It has it's own it's diesel power plants.

At what point in time are you going to understand that finding these chemicals are not uncommon in a complex of this size.

It was estimated to be 1.2 million tons.

Yes, they do, and they fit neatly in to large warehouses. There isn't a warehouse that could fit 1.2 million tons.

Didn't they? Seems we know all about every last ounce of chemical that has come out of the debris, from barium to thermiate to iron rich micro spheres.

And?

The buildings came down not because of some code violation, but because large airplanes crashed into them.

Blah blah blah. So an editor of an online fire engineering magazine has his panties in a bunch because they are selling off scrap iron. We've already done an investigation, and we know exactly what happened. Why do we need to do more investigations?

Are you saying that any parts of the planes that hit WTC might actually be found, examined cataloged? And that if any parts were not found, that this somehow feeds your conspiracy theory that planes did not take down the towers?

Dumbass, there were many thousands of people involved and people did try to stop it.

Something tells me you're being too generous in your assessment of his age.

I've seen plenty of pictures of aircraft debris around ground zero. /shrug.

I should have been more specific. Apologies. What I meant essentially are the types of things illustrated by your Wikipedia quote: railroad ties, electrical conductors, welding done remotely and in open air conditions, not building construction (and yes I know buildings are "open air" sites at first).

I don't know whether or not they do, but I've never heard of it. Have you or are you just using your "common sense" to assume this kind of welding is done with building construction?

Finding thermite is pretty uncommon, I would guess, or it wouldn't get anyone's panties in a bunch, and finding military patented thermate is probably impossible, especially unignited stuff.

However as I've repeated it wasn't the presence of but the high levels of the materials that was telling.

I wasn't talking about treating the whole set of towers like airplane investigations, just conducting an investigation, period. I'm not sure exactly how fire investigators would have conducted it, but having access to the metal to understand why and how it behaved the way it did would have been a good start.

These materials were found in WTC dust layering apartments and offices blocks and blocks away from the site. Hardly any of the metal was preserved or catalogued.

I wasn't talking about building code violation. I was referring to the NFPA fire and explosion investigation code, which is always followed.

Well, no, that is his whole point - we haven't done an investigation; and the iron and steel and other debris from the WTC started getting shipped out and disposed of immediately, before and without an investigation.

Giuliani sealed off the pit and basically blocked all search and rescue while the dumptrucks were working 24/7.

Fire Engineering is more than just an "online" magazine, btw, it's been around for over 130 years, longer than the NFPA, and is a recognized authority.

We won't know if parts of the planes could have been recovered anymore, will we? But why wasn't a foresnsiv investigation conducted? After all, everything was pulverized, against all probability, which definitely begs the question "What brought down the towers?"

For the first time in aviation disaster history, even the black boxes weren't recovered apparently.

The FBI was down there, and two witnesses, at least one of whom was a cop assisting them, saw the black boxes recovered, but the FBI now denies this.

So who knows? How can we know? Short of an investigation, of course...

makes you wonder how a bunch of ex-cops, ex-military, ex-cia, ex-fbi, career criminals and cult members appeared out of nowhere with no visible means of support promoting ridiculous theories full time?

Thermite is very common. It's used in welding. The more I read about it, the more common it's becoming. The WTC complex is a city of fifty thousand people. It's constantly under construction.

They use thermite to for telecommunications and electrical networks. I can only imagine how many hundreds of thousands of miles of wiring they had in the WTC.

So now after quoting findings by the NIST, your going to tell us there wasn't an investigation. There was multiple investigations done by multiple agencies. You just refuse to believe anything they tell you.

And I love how your implying they didn't have "access to the metal". They sorted everything, conducted multiple investigations, and then... What do you expect them to do with it? Kept it until the end of time? What they do with airplane scraps after their investigation, do they keep the pieces in warehouses until the end of time?

What building code violation?

Why do we have to have NFPA investigate? Is the NFPA a government agency? Is it required by law that NFPA investigate? How many more investigations do we need?

The debris were removed off site and then reviewed and tested. Their investigation was so detailed that they had forensics experts looking for bone fragments.

And here is something else about thermite.... As they were removing the debris from the WTC, they had to remove these huge steel girders.... Just seems to me they would have used thermite on a daily basis to cut those pieces down to size so they could remove them...

So then.

Everything was pulverized. There were few of any plane parts that could be recovered. Therefore, a conspiracy?

And no, dude, it is not against "all probability". What now? Are you saying that the planes should have bounced off?

Honestly, do you just make this stuff up?

Are you telling me that they always find every black box and they are magically in perfect working order after every plane accident? Really? Because a quick google search tells me other wise.

See you don't even have the basic facts straight. How can anyone take anything you have to say seriously when you don't even have the faintest idea?

Flight 93 - Both black boxes recovered.

Flight 77 - Both black boxes recovered. One of them, the cockpit voice recorder, was too badly damaged to be used. Here's a picture of what was left of the damaged box as used at trial for Moussaoui.

http://www.911myths.com/images/f/fa/Flight_77_CVR.jpg

Of further note, this is not the first time that a black box was recovered but unusable. It's happened at least 4 other times.

You're fucking retarded. 3 of the 4 found were working.

Why don't you read the transcript? Here's a link to flight 93's cockpit voice recorder transcript.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/0...transcript.pdf

How can you possibly be taking part in a discussion when your basic understanding of the facts is something you're making up as you go along? Absolutely incredible.

I'm not going to argue with a lunatic.

Hmmmmmm....

With the exceptions of a couple high-altitude crashes where debris was inaccessible, and several deep-sea crashes where it was lost, yes - most every airline disaster has had it's black boxes recovered.

I know it's used in some types of welding. But building construction? I don't know. I know they don't use it for wiring up buildings. Maybe the foundation columns of the WTC? You'd have to link me up.

They don't present "findings", they present surmises. I believe much of what they say, in that way. It's their conclusions that make no sense based on the "probable" conjectures they present. As I said before the NIST report is a hypothesis of what happened in the building/s up to collapse initiation. They omit or ignore much "evidence" and testimony. They didn't report on the what and the why, and if they performed any forensic analysis it was derived from the actual hands-on work FEMA did before them.

If they had access to the metal, they certainly didn't take advantage of it; they based any forensic work on data collected by FEMA who eventually got their hands on some pretty damaged metal that seemed to have been vaporized by nano-thermite. NIST however didn't comment on that, it doesn't back up their theory.

You said something to the effect that the buildings didn't collapse due to code violation. I didn't disagree, I just said that the investigation code created by NFPA and used in every other major disaster, fire, whatever, was not followed after these buildings collapsed.

Something like 80% of the debris was removed without being reviewed or tagged. FEMA wasn't allowed to enter and investigate. Instead, they had to go over debris dumped at landfills before it was hauled off overseas. They were ultimately able to take 100 or 150 pieces out of hundreds of thousands, that were sold.

As I said in another post, there wasn't that much steel to cut in the pit because it had already been snapped, bent and broken. I haven't heard of any thermite used to cut steel in the debris. Even then, the fine iron spheres and thermite (and especially thermate) wouldn't have ended up in the dust that coated offices and apartments dozens of blocks away, weeks before.

You aren't reading or you're following a faulty line of logic. Everything was pulverized. Since steel was removed as though it were trash, it would be difficult to gauge what plane parts could be recovered, and if there were it seems they would have been tiny. Therefore, a very unnatural, non-organic "collapse".

The pulverization is against all probability in one collapse, much more so in three different collapses.
Collapse itself is against all probability. Sudden onset and symmetrical collapse, not once but in three different instances, is even less likely.
Molten steel is impossible in any office fire; jet fuel cannot melt steel.

Why is it so hard to believe they were demolished, especially when the theory put forward by the government is devoid of evidentiary support, and so much testimony and evidence to any alternative or just another investigative path is just dismissed?

Isn't that in itself suspect?

You said...

"For the first time in aviation disaster history, even the black boxes weren't recovered apparently." And that is incorrect.

And this is typical of the so called "truth movement". You make a statement that is not really true and then expand on it. "It's impossible to find Barium" (except for in light bulbs) and "It's impossible to find thermite" (which is used in communications gear), and then you say there was no investigation - even though I have a paperback book downstairs that says otherwise.

Everything the truth movement comes up with can be explained away....

Squibs - compressed air taking the path of least resistance
Explosions - well, there were explosions all over the place that day
WTC - ten hour fire
Molten steel - was it really steel? Or was it aluminum - Or tin foil.

It's just comical to me that all of these things can easily be explained.

lol! Stop... just ... stop.

I don't have your gift for nit-picking...

For the first time in aviation disaster history, the black boxes of a land-based crash that wasn't located at inaccessible elevation weren't recovered.

Is that better?

Typical of argumentative and ad hominem refusals to consider anything but the "common sense" popular theory, you pick on details and overlook significant statements.

I've corrected that quickly-written statement to its actual intent, which was that Barium and other elements of its type were in higher quantities than they should have been.

Thermite isn't used in communications gear. It isn't used in building renovations either. It's used in exterior open-field conditions such as laying down rail road ties and connecting high-tension electrical cables.

Sigh... what, the 9/11 Commission Report? Do you also at least have a companion "Omission Report", to cover everything that one left out?

And if you qualify the building performance report, the FEMA report and NIST report as "investigations" then fine, however loosely you want to use that word.

I'm sure, like the government theory, much of what they claim can also be replied to or justified otherwise.

Right through concrete and steel... least resistance?

Actually, the official story says there wasn't explosions all over the place that day. Just plane crashes. The diesel in the buildings didn't even go off.

Actually, it was intermittent fires that roved from fuel source to fuel source throughout the day; nothing that would fell a building; even your trusted authorities say it wasn't enough to bring it down. The length of time it burned is secondary, according to the NIST theory, to the combination of damage and that one particular fire that "thermally expanded" a horizontal support beam. It could have burned for as little as the thousand-foot towers and still would have gone down, according to their description.

Molten aluminum is silvery-white, this was orange, and burned or remained molten for up to six weeks. Yours is a legitimate question, but analysis answers it for you.

It seems more that they're dismissed by uncorroborated nit-picking and lack of consideration.

But Greg, But Greg, but Greg. This is where you always screw up. Even if this was the first time in history that a black box wasn't recovered, it is not automatic proof that there is a cover up.

You do this all the time. You say that buildings never fell like that before, THEREFORE XYZ must be TRUE.

[/quote]




No Greg you've got that wrong. Actually, it;s conspiracy theorists that overlook scientific fact in their zealous attempts to simultaneously deny reality and spin some kind of fantasy world where they are clued in to what?s really going on. I think you automatically push anything out that doesn't agree with your pre existing determination of 9/11 invents.

I'd love to know how Jet fuel made pockets of heat that were 2000 degrees under the rubble for 6 weeks after the crash.

Even Gouliani testified to this.

I'd love to know where you have proof that "jet fuel" was ever stated to be the cause of the continued fire. You don't have to be a genius to understand the jet fuel burned off rather quickly.

You guys make so many random and obviously wrong statements to raise suspicion - its so bizarre to watch at times.

Correct.

A fire is one thing. If I was to light some furniture on fire on the 78th floor, that's one thing, and it can quickly be put out.

A fire started by ten thousand gallons of jet fuel is a completely different thing. This explosion set fire to four or five floors instantly, and set EVERYTHING on those floors on fire instantly - plus sent fireballs down the elevator shaft to sky lobbies and the main lobby level.

The jet fuel did burn out after about ten minutes. But by that time there was a raging inferno.

Stop what your doing and read the page on Wikipedia about Thermite, would you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

It says "thermite is used for welding together thick copper wires for the purpose of electrical connections. It is used extensively by the electrical utilities and telecommunications industries".

It is used by electrical utilities and telecommunications industries - both of which was massive in the world trade center.

Your making it sound like it's impossible to find thermite and I'm trying to tell you that it's very common. Any telephone trunk is going to have it.

This is where you assume you understand what I am saying, but you are listening without hearing, or hearing more than what is said. For example:

This is true. But I didn't make the statement that not finding the black boxes was proof, automatic or otherwise, of anything.

I brought them up to illustrate the need for an investigation, being one of dozens if not hundreds of unusual, unlikely factoids about the events that day.

Your precognitive "hearing" is at work again.

Actually, I say buildings never fell like that before, THEREFORE there should be investigation.

What I actually say:
The fact that not one but three historically unprecedented events such as buildings collapsing due to fire is another of the many, many unusual if not impossible occurrences on that day - if you consider the official story.

Since there was

• molten metal under the buildings so long
• so much (discounted) testimony of explosive events prior to collapse,
• enormous amounts of liquefied iron in the dust
• unignited thermate in the dust
• rapid onset of the collapse events
• symmetry in all three collapses
• no resistance in their descents

among many other facts, I say the officially and popularly believed theory cannot be correct.

You're probably right in many cases, I don't know all conspiracy theories around that day. Certainly you're right about the government's conpiracy theory and those who believe it.

The only thing I "push out" is the conclusion arrived at from the official collapse theory's "probable sequence" of events, which is incomplete due to the omission of, or lack of, available data. I'm certain most of the statements are individually and scientifically correct.

:D

To add to that, for it to be so hot people decided to leap to their death, really says a lot. Not only was everything on fire, but it was on fire at an extreme temperature.

That's not entirely true. I was an electrician many moons ago and we did a lot of commercial and industrial work (Procter & Gamble, GE, US Postal Service, and so on). Not once was thermite welding used during any job site I was ever on, and we had some big ones.

I'm not saying it's not used, but it's not as common (at least for most electrical work) as you are making it sound. However, for steel framing I could see how it would be used and I have no doubt it was used in the construction of those towers. I'm not surprised one bit that thermite was found in the rubble.

It's commonly used in exterior conditions to create large, industrial joints and connections for trunk lines and high-tension electrical cabling. Ok. These things aren't found in buildings, they connect generating stations to centrals or transmission stations, substations, and the like, but the "smaller" extensions and connections are branched to progressively smaller network nodes and sub-transmission points (I don't know the technical terms) where the kind of thermite welding you're talking about is not found.

The main reason for doing it apart from stability and conductivity, is the fact that it's easier to bring a thermite welding kit or station to an impaired railroad tie or broken locomotive (or high-tension line tower in the middle of nowhere), than to do the opposite.

You're still showing me that thermite wasn't used in the construction or renovation of WTC buildings...

So your saying that office furnature burned at 2000+ degrees? For 6 weeks? What are you saying

Well, there you have it. There was a sub station in the WTC. It was in the parking garage.

WTC 7 was build OVER a Con Ed sub station.

Should I research this further?