CEO of Epoch/PayCom - Page 3 - GoFuckYourself.com

tony286 · 09-23-2004, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SweetT
Tony....you dont know me and I dont know you....I simply pointed out that you made a naive statement. In this post you made a very profound statment "I disagree you can be in adult and be morally correct". I agree with you 100%. It goes both ways.

Let me clarify something before anyone thinks that I am attacking morals...I AM NOT. I am simply pointing out that my morals may be different than yours.

EXAMPLE: I bought a hosting company a while back that had one client who hosted "Non-Nude Teen Sites" (the customer was worth about $10,000 per month in revenue). Within 30 days of buying the company I asked the new customer to seek other hosting because I did not like hosting that type of site. I never said it was right or wrong, I never questioned his "right" to operate that type of site...I simply said that I did not want to host it because of *MY* morals. Does that make me right and him wrong? No. It simply shows that my morals and his are different.

EXAMPLE 2: My grandmother would roll over in her grave if she knew what I was happily hosting. Does that make her morals right and mine wrong? Again, no....just a difference of opinion.

So...please do not mistake my points as being pro-Morals or anti-Morals...I am just pointing out that the differ from person to person.

--T

I can agree with you on that

Now if you came to our webmaster networking with Kathi , you would get to know me and to know me is to love me

Nysus · 09-23-2004, 09:55 AM

!@#$ I just wrote up a reply to your post Tony and it didn't go through (30 second post rule) and when I went back it didn't keep it!@

I need to go, I'll be back later to reply.

Matt

Nysus · 09-23-2004, 09:57 AM

I just want to re-state the facts of this thread;

I'm not attacking Epoch/PayCom. Everything I have ever heard from anyone of Epoch/PayCom has been good.

I however was very shocked to hear from Epoch/PayCom's CEO Chris Mallick responding to me in another thread; "Were you not held enough as a child?" It was out of line, childish, pointless and very unprofessional to come from the CEO of such a large and well-known company.

Throughout the rest of this thread I have been questioning the morals of pre-checked cross-sales. I don't agree with them, though others seem to take that as a personal attack because they are using them.

I hope that this thread will continue to bring awareness to folks as to why pre-checked cross-sales exist and why they are not honest to surfers and not moral or ethical in my opinion, and in many others' opinions; I am not alone, and you will see that with people that I don't have any connection with post and make replies with the same beliefs and feelings as myself.

Anyways, I do have to go out for a bit.. I'll be back later.

Matt

BradM · 09-23-2004, 10:00 AM

Chris is one of the most outstanding people in the business.

Do you LIVE to talk shit Matt?

Nysus · 09-23-2004, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BradM
Chris is one of the most outstanding people in the business.

Do you LIVE to talk shit Matt?

Brad, don't be an idiot please. Did you even read any of this thread? Or even my last post?

You people need to learn to read first before actually posting a comment. Sadly most of GFY doesn't do that.

Matt

psyko514 · 09-23-2004, 10:05 AM

Matt, one very important thing. I'm not going to argue the pros and cons of cross-sales because it's too lengthy an argument and it's not my place to argue it, but I do want to point out one huge flaw in what you're doing.

First, moral and ethics are based on personal values. Just because you think cross-sales are morally/ethically wrong, it doesn't mean that everyone thinks they're morally/ethically wrong. And it doesn't mean that those who disagree with you are any worse off.

Millions of people think porn is morally/ethically wrong. If one of these people tried to force their beliefs on you (which is essentially when you're doing here to some extent), would you respect them? Would you listen to them?

Want more examples? Say your younger sister/brother/cousin was dying of something, and a blood transfusion could help save his/her life, and you were the only person who could authorize it. Would you? Some religions think it would be morally or ethically wrong to do that. But they wouldn't force their beliefs on you.

On the flip side, some religions or societies think it's morally/ethically correct to allow a husband to kill a wife if she's caught cheating, but not to allow the reverse. But they're not here in Canada or the US advocating for that.

You're entitled to your opinion. We all are. But none of us are entitle to force it upon others. Doing so only makes you look worse in the eyes of many. You have no right to have a holier-than-thou attitude because of your opinion.

This thread has over 100 replies and over 30 participants. Of those 30+ participants, the vast majority aren't taking your side. And I suspect that's based on your attitude rather than your arguments, because they do have some merit.

WiredGuy · 09-23-2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nysus
And just because someone else does it, doesn't mean it's ethical or honest. If you're trying to use that as an argument then you surprised me.

Well, if a lot of companies are doing it and its become generally accepted practice, then why not. Expedia, Amazon (although less aggressive), dating sites, adult sites all commonly practice similiar upsell and cross-sale methods. It's not unethical at all, they're trying to sell you additional similiar products. Granted the pre-checked is a little aggressive but nevertheless it is a legitimate means of making additional sales.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nysus
You're a really great guy Charles and not meaning any harm by this, but the reason you're fending for pre-checked cross-sales is you make your money from them - your business model depends on them, your living depends on them.

I defend them because they're a legtimate business practice. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be promoting those programs. Of course it adds to my bottom line and I don't deny that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nysus
Don't you think it would be better though if programs had quality paysites that surfers signed up to, and THEN retain them by them being updated with quality non-cookie cutter content, and THAT is how programs maximize profits for themselves and you??

What's wrong with doing both? Whether you like it or not, this is a business in which everyone wants to maximize their bottom line and so long as cross-sales are around, they'll be part of this mix.

WG

WiredGuy · 09-23-2004, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by polish_aristocrat
But please no cross sales on the join page

psyko514 · 09-23-2004, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WiredGuy
Well, if a lot of companies are doing it and its become generally accepted practice, then why not. Expedia, Amazon (although less aggressive), dating sites, adult sites all commonly practice similiar upsell and cross-sale methods. It's not unethical at all, they're trying to sell you additional similiar products. Granted the pre-checked is a little aggressive but nevertheless it is a legitimate means of making additional sales.

Hell, McDonalds, convenience stores and Future Shop do it as well. And from a psychological stand point, a verbal cross-sale attempt is a lot harder to refuse than a pre-checked cross-sale is to uncheck.

Ever say no to the extended warranty offer at Future Shop? I often don't. And when I refuse it, not only do I feel cheap, but the salesman asks me if I'm sure and then reiterates the benefits for me, empasizing that if anything were to go wrong, I'd potentially save a lot of money.

In my opinion, that's a lot more agressive than a pre-checked cross-sale that I can simply uncheck if I'm not interested and not have something make me feel cheap or unsure about my decision.

tony286 · 09-23-2004, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WiredGuy
Well, if a lot of companies are doing it and its become generally accepted practice, then why not. Expedia, Amazon (although less aggressive), dating sites, adult sites all commonly practice similiar upsell and cross-sale methods. It's not unethical at all, they're trying to sell you additional similiar products. Granted the pre-checked is a little aggressive but nevertheless it is a legitimate means of making additional sales.

I defend them because they're a legtimate business practice. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be promoting those programs. Of course it adds to my bottom line and I don't deny that.

What's wrong with doing both? Whether you like it or not, this is a business in which everyone wants to maximize their bottom line and so long as cross-sales are around, they'll be part of this mix.

WG

Amazon doesnt precheck them ,thats the difference. If you want to try and cross sell the customer a hundred different things during the buying process. Thats cool just dont precheck them, thats not selling thats hoping they arent paying attention.

robfantasy · 09-23-2004, 10:30 AM

matt i wasnt attacking you man!!

but on the subject of cross sales.... you assume that everyone that leaves them checked do not/will not want it and that they just overlooked it...

i have to disagree with you on that, if i was a surfer i would say what the hell its and offer to see another site i would not have known about unless i had this offer..

no big deal..

on the other hand, if it wasnt checked, i would be like well nah i dont want it, i just want this one...

its like when u go to mcdonalds and you cant decide if you want to upsize to large.. if she asks u say.. ahh ok.

if she doesnt, you just get the medium.

WiredGuy · 09-23-2004, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
Amazon doesnt precheck them ,thats the difference. If you want to try and cross sell the customer a hundred different things during the buying process. Thats cool just dont precheck them, thats not selling thats hoping they arent paying attention.

That's why I mentioned Amazon was less aggressive. But their system of correlating similiar items on checkout is really ingenious and works very well. Psyko514 also gave a couple really good examples at fast food restaurants and extended warranties on point of sales purchases. I'll admit that prechecked is aggressive but still legitimate.

WG

12clicks · 09-23-2004, 10:41 AM

I had to respond to this before I read page 3

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
Naive ? I have worked in the adult business from strip clubs to jack shacks to the net off and on for 22yrs. So dont get confused with your success on the net that your a wise old sage. I disagree you can be in adult and be morally correct . I never lie or screw people over I do business with, I treat my customers like the wonderful special people they are . They give me the oportunity to work with my wife and not to have go to a day job. I thank god every night for my business. Now because I do have morals do I fuck my self out of opportunites to make alot more money ,yes I do but I enjoy looking at myself in the mirror.

The key sentence here that makes me laugh in your face is:

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
I have worked in the adult business from strip clubs to jack shacks to the net off and on for 22yrs.

the key phrases being "I have worked" and "off and on"

dig420 · 09-23-2004, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nysus

Tony - Do you respect what your friend said to me?

"Were you not held enough as a child?"

Even if it was sarcastic, it was meant as an attack, shallow, a stupid and pointless comment.

If anything he can own up and apologize. It was childish - and yes, I was shocked that it came from a company that I overall have only ever had good respect for, and only ever heard good things of.

Matt

man quit crying, why do you have to broadcast your little hurt feelings?

you obviously WEREN'T held enough as a child

Aly-Python · 09-23-2004, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spanno
you are all hahahahas

...and clearly not held enough as children.

Tom_PMs · 09-23-2004, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JMM
Pre-checked email boxes, pop-ups, etc are not the same as pre-checked cross sale boxes, they aren't in the same league. You are trying to compare apples and pencils.

I respectfully disagree

In the sense that pre-checked email offers and pre-checked cross sells both require an action on the part of the user, I believe it's apples to apples. I said that in a previous post. The only difference is in one case you get emails, in the other you get billed. Both results of the same in-action.

In the case of pop-ups:cross sales, the analogy was that chances are that nobody particularly LIKES to deal with them, yet we all still do.

In the case of pop-ups, in many (most?) cases, the surfer is, shall we say, actively "unchecking" the option with a popup blocker. So it could easily be argued that circumventing a popup blocker is FAR more unethical of a practice. Akin to rechecking a box that the surfer unchecked, no?

And let me say that if we are going to cater to the most dimwitted person who cant read a page before spending money, well hell lets all just quit

Again, respectfully.

Bugbee · 09-23-2004, 11:14 AM

this thread is useless without people being held as children

Paul Markham · 09-23-2004, 11:21 AM

Maybe Chris would like to get back to nme and explain why my application for processing has not been approves or denied.

Only been 8 months now.

Will have a look and see if they took the money out of my account as a pre payment.

Have ICQed the rep dealing with me, he does not bother to reply anymore.

Great service Chris.

imageman · 09-23-2004, 11:38 AM

At the end of the day the surfer / member has the right to charge back a sale he thinks was not requested. If pre checked cross sales produced such confusion wouldn't Epoch have a hugh CB ratio and wouldn't that stop cross sales so that their CB ratio was in line with Visa's requirements. That seems not to be the case as Epoch still offer cross sales. Remember we as webmaster have the right to use cross sales or not ?

V_RocKs · 09-23-2004, 11:42 AM

Going to have to quote Chris on this one, "Were you not held as a child," Nysus?

You got your attention, now move on, dumbass...

Chris · 09-23-2004, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick
Wow! You have made me think. I guess I should really stop and ty to "feel" what you were trying to say. I will get back to you with a pithy reply, maybe, but don't count on it. I and we satnd behind all of our business practices. We are compliant in all things to my knowledge.

I don't want to feed your need to post and to argue over things you don;t really understand. So I am out for the night and not posting to this thread again.

If you truly have a problem with me or anthing we do, I will extend to you an open invitation to fly to LA and sit with me, face-to-face and discuss this like gentlemen. If you need, we will pay for your plane ticket if you agree that we can video tape the meeting. I am sure I can change your thinking if you allow me the time to give you the facts.

If you want, email me to discuss this further: [email protected]

Night all............

Free trip to LA to sit face-to-face to you ? AND have it video taped?

I'm down!

I *LOVE* industry ego's

XPays · 09-23-2004, 12:07 PM

nysus- nice smoke screen trying to debate cross-sells instead of admitting you were just purely offended and over reacted. you push people's buttons and then they might just say something that bugs you.

you assume all surfers are incredibly stupid? the terms and conditions check box is Not pre-checked. The whole process requires affirmative action and the majority of people who purchase pre-checked cross sells use their user/pwd at the purchased site. surfers are more skeptical and less stupid than you give them credit for imho.

JMM · 09-23-2004, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XPays
nysus- nice smoke screen trying to debate cross-sells instead of admitting you were just purely offended and over reacted. you push people's buttons and then they might just say something that bugs you.

you assume all surfers are incredibly stupid? the terms and conditions check box is Not pre-checked. The whole process requires affirmative action and the majority of people who purchase pre-checked cross sells use their user/pwd at the purchased site. surfers are more skeptical and less stupid than you give them credit for imho.

A lot rings true in your post.

While I don't think all surfers are incredibly stupid, I think a lot of them are when it comes to our business and the purchase of an online membership. From day one, I have always told my people that you have to design our sites with the the least intelligent surfer in mind. It sucks, but in this business, you really do have to cater to the lowest common denominator.

While you are technically correct that a majority of people use the u/p on pre-checked cross sells, I personally have found that it is a slight majority. We did an analysis of two sites that used pre-check cross sells about a year and a half ago...while this study was in no means sicentific..here is what we found:

61% of pre-checked cross sell u/p's were used. To me, the important figure is NOT that 61% were used, but that 39% were never used.

Of the 61% that were used, the average time between join and cancel was 4 days.

The scariest part of our study? We asked SEVERAL sites if we could do this analysis and there were only TWO that even had the ability to look at this, most didn't have a clue.

It is my opinion that the practice of pre-checked cross sells is similair to the car dealer adding under carriage rust protection without specifically spelling that out at time of purchase.

Just my opinion. I also think that I should make clear that I don't believe that all companies who use pre-checked cross sells are out to con the consumer. Many have excellent customer service and a no questions asked refund policy. The sad truth is that there are quite a few who are using it as an easy way to fuck the consumer. I was at a site the other day that didn't even have a box, simply small fine print that told them that if they didnt cancel the bonus memberships, they would be charged $39.95 a month. If I remember correctly, they were getting BONUS memberships at 3 other sites. If they didn't cancel within 24 hours, their first month charge was in excess of $125 on a $19.95 join. Now that should be illegal. If I remember the site, I will post it here.

My two cents.

taboo_dude · 09-23-2004, 01:30 PM

>I was at a site the other day that didn't even have a box, simply small fine print that told them that if they didnt cancel the bonus memberships, they would be charged $39.95 a month. If I remember correctly, they were getting BONUS memberships at 3 other sites. If they didn't cancel within 24 hours, their first month charge was in excess of $125 on a $19.95 join. Now that should be illegal. If I remember the site, I will post it here.

That is bad

and going to far. On the other hand a pre checked cross sale that is easily identifiable isn't the worst of what is going on..... this is hurting no one expect the ones too lazy to read terms and conditions.

Matt,

I wouldn't be debating something this hard especially if I encouraged it.

"Of course I'm going to be around and benefitting from pre-checked cross-sales, most everyone in this industry currently is.

So of I'm going to make money through them while I need to I will because it is a means to an end."

But at the same time you have said:

"Throughout the rest of this thread I have been questioning the morals of pre-checked cross-sales. I don't agree with them"

"Exploitation isn't ethical, yet it happens, and it's quite common, doesn't mean it's the best thing."

If they are that bad, practice what you preach. When you say you participate in cross sales, is it because you have no other choice?

I respect people that say what they do and do what they say. If you are so determined that they are so bad be an example, and make changes and maybe others will follow. (I wouldn't be pinpointing someone like Chris though on an industry standard no matter how bad my feelings got hurt)

If it was something really bad like CP or something similiar, I would no matter who it was, but not over something like cross sells.

gregtx · 09-23-2004, 01:33 PM

Nysus... honestly... lighten up... your moral crusade makes you sound like John Ash*roft.... btw .. Chris' quote would make a great for a great sig line

Aly-Python · 09-23-2004, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gregtx
btw .. Chris' quote would make a great for a great sig line

True!

tony286 · 09-23-2004, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 12clicks
I had to respond to this before I read page 3

The key sentence here that makes me laugh in your face is:

the key phrases being "I have worked" and "off and on"

You are a fool, who probably works in a cubical in a office. What do you do? All the big players on this board are very clear what their businesses are. They dont hide and call everyone children which is the first sign of a child. If you were once a big player it was luck you were in the right place at the right time because if you were the real deal you wouldnt be going back and forth with us little people. never talking any business just here to bust balls.

IntenseCash · 09-23-2004, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
You are a fool, who probably works in a cubical in a office. What do you do? All the big players on this board are very clear what their businesses are. They dont hide and call everyone children which is the first sign of a child. If you were once a big player it was luck you were in the right place at the right time because if you were the real deal you wouldnt be going back and forth with us little people. never talking any business just here to bust balls.

Very good point

graphicsbytia · 09-23-2004, 04:31 PM

morals vs business

I think morals should be used to make more money

that's what business is all about, it has nothing to do with morals, it has to do with how much you can make and how much power you can weild.

The power and profit ultimately come from the consumer, so you run your business in a way that allows you to profit the most, and keep profiting on a consistant basis.

If your "business morals" aren't right.. it will show in your profits.

Do I agree that unchecked cross sales are immoral? First you have to tell me what the profit margin is compared to checked cross sales, taking into account charge backs.

Bringing your own morals and emotion into business are foolish.. considering how other people's morals affect your business is wise

Nysus · 09-23-2004, 04:56 PM

Been a long day. I'll make one long ass reply tomorrow sometime, all will be cleared..

G'night all.

Matt

jimmyf · 09-23-2004, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biggy2
were you not held enough as a child?

did he answer the question ??

jimmyf · 09-23-2004, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by robfantasy
epoch is good people, id rather have someone tell it like it is and be unprofessional, then a professional asshole blowing smoke up my ass.

I had some dealings with them over something, and let me tell you they are a 100% class act. The person was (don't know if she want's her name posted) was very very professional, I can't say enough good about them.

12clicks · 09-23-2004, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
You are a fool, who probably works in a cubical in a office. What do you do? All the big players on this board are very clear what their businesses are. They dont hide and call everyone children which is the first sign of a child. If you were once a big player it was luck you were in the right place at the right time because if you were the real deal you wouldnt be going back and forth with us little people. never talking any business just here to bust balls.

son, small brained xclowns like yourself aren't the people I talk business with.
As I've explained to you before, thinking that my success and your lack there of is based on luck only identifies why you are where you are and I'm where I am.

oh, and I'm not hiding from anyone. There's not a big player in this biz who doesn't know what I do.
sad for you you've admitted to not knowing what I do.

Aly-Python · 09-23-2004, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tony404
You are a fool, who probably works in a cubical in a office. What do you do? All the big players on this board are very clear what their businesses are. They dont hide and call everyone children which is the first sign of a child. If you were once a big player it was luck you were in the right place at the right time because if you were the real deal you wouldnt be going back and forth with us little people. never talking any business just here to bust balls.

... um... you might be a tiny bit off there, darling.

Aly-Python · 09-23-2004, 07:10 PM

...still...

09-23-2004, 09:55 AM	#102
Nysus Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,817	!@#$ I just wrote up a reply to your post Tony and it didn't go through (30 second post rule) and when I went back it didn't keep it!@ I need to go, I'll be back later to reply. Matt __________________ What name is pr0 / Untouched Markets using these days? Untouched Markets - pr0 - Refund My Money Now Someone owes me $2,000 because they didn't do any work that was paid for pointing at pr0 / William / UntouchedMarkets See https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/948258-untouchedmarkets-pr0-refund-money-post16744521.html and for more detailed see https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/948645-re-recent-bullshit-drama-explained-detail-pr0-untouched-markets.html

09-23-2004, 09:57 AM	#103
Nysus Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,817	I just want to re-state the facts of this thread; I'm not attacking Epoch/PayCom. Everything I have ever heard from anyone of Epoch/PayCom has been good. I however was very shocked to hear from Epoch/PayCom's CEO Chris Mallick responding to me in another thread; "Were you not held enough as a child?" It was out of line, childish, pointless and very unprofessional to come from the CEO of such a large and well-known company. Throughout the rest of this thread I have been questioning the morals of pre-checked cross-sales. I don't agree with them, though others seem to take that as a personal attack because they are using them. I hope that this thread will continue to bring awareness to folks as to why pre-checked cross-sales exist and why they are not honest to surfers and not moral or ethical in my opinion, and in many others' opinions; I am not alone, and you will see that with people that I don't have any connection with post and make replies with the same beliefs and feelings as myself. Anyways, I do have to go out for a bit.. I'll be back later. Matt __________________ What name is pr0 / Untouched Markets using these days? Untouched Markets - pr0 - Refund My Money Now Someone owes me $2,000 because they didn't do any work that was paid for pointing at pr0 / William / UntouchedMarkets See https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/948258-untouchedmarkets-pr0-refund-money-post16744521.html and for more detailed see https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/948645-re-recent-bullshit-drama-explained-detail-pr0-untouched-markets.html

09-23-2004, 10:05 AM	#106
psyko514 See sig. Join Epic Cash. Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec. ICQ: 214702014 Posts: 22,366	Matt, one very important thing. I'm not going to argue the pros and cons of cross-sales because it's too lengthy an argument and it's not my place to argue it, but I do want to point out one huge flaw in what you're doing. First, moral and ethics are based on personal values. Just because you think cross-sales are morally/ethically wrong, it doesn't mean that everyone thinks they're morally/ethically wrong. And it doesn't mean that those who disagree with you are any worse off. Millions of people think porn is morally/ethically wrong. If one of these people tried to force their beliefs on you (which is essentially when you're doing here to some extent), would you respect them? Would you listen to them? Want more examples? Say your younger sister/brother/cousin was dying of something, and a blood transfusion could help save his/her life, and you were the only person who could authorize it. Would you? Some religions think it would be morally or ethically wrong to do that. But they wouldn't force their beliefs on you. On the flip side, some religions or societies think it's morally/ethically correct to allow a husband to kill a wife if she's caught cheating, but not to allow the reverse. But they're not here in Canada or the US advocating for that. You're entitled to your opinion. We all are. But none of us are entitle to force it upon others. Doing so only makes you look worse in the eyes of many. You have no right to have a holier-than-thou attitude because of your opinion. This thread has over 100 replies and over 30 participants. Of those 30+ participants, the vast majority aren't taking your side. And I suspect that's based on your attitude rather than your arguments, because they do have some merit. __________________ Bad Girl Bucks - 50% Revshare through CCBill. Promote BrandyDDD, Pixie's Pillows, Action Allie and more! Phoenix Forum Pics \| Webmaster Access Montreal pics email: psyko514(a)gmail.com \| icq: 214-702-014

09-23-2004, 10:30 AM	#111
robfantasy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Medellin, Colombia Posts: 6,445	matt i wasnt attacking you man!! but on the subject of cross sales.... you assume that everyone that leaves them checked do not/will not want it and that they just overlooked it... i have to disagree with you on that, if i was a surfer i would say what the hell its and offer to see another site i would not have known about unless i had this offer.. no big deal.. on the other hand, if it wasnt checked, i would be like well nah i dont want it, i just want this one... its like when u go to mcdonalds and you cant decide if you want to upsize to large.. if she asks u say.. ahh ok. if she doesnt, you just get the medium. __________________ Looking to speak w/ high volume nutra CPA affiliates or networks... msg me

09-23-2004, 11:14 AM	#117
Bugbee Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Your moms house Posts: 4,609	this thread is useless without people being held as children __________________ Stephen Bugbee www.x2k.com ICQ# FUCK ICQ bugbee AT x2k dot com X2K consulting and media services - specializing in business development, technology and profitability of your new or existing products and services X2K MEDIA SUITE Need a high risk merchant account? Contact me.. Are you a donor? Have a heart and help someone in need. Go to the DMV and be sure you are a donor, it saves lives!!!!

09-23-2004, 10:00 AM	#104
BradM Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 1123,6536,5231 Posts: 3,397	Chris is one of the most outstanding people in the business. Do you LIVE to talk shit Matt?

09-23-2004, 11:21 AM	#118
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	Maybe Chris would like to get back to nme and explain why my application for processing has not been approves or denied. Only been 8 months now. Will have a look and see if they took the money out of my account as a pre payment. Have ICQed the rep dealing with me, he does not bother to reply anymore. Great service Chris. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

09-23-2004, 11:38 AM	#119
imageman Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,938	At the end of the day the surfer / member has the right to charge back a sale he thinks was not requested. If pre checked cross sales produced such confusion wouldn't Epoch have a hugh CB ratio and wouldn't that stop cross sales so that their CB ratio was in line with Visa's requirements. That seems not to be the case as Epoch still offer cross sales. Remember we as webmaster have the right to use cross sales or not ?

09-23-2004, 11:42 AM	#120
V_RocKs Damn Right I Kiss Ass! Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Cowtown, USA Posts: 32,409	Going to have to quote Chris on this one, "Were you not held as a child," Nysus? You got your attention, now move on, dumbass...

09-23-2004, 12:07 PM	#122
XPays Team Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Inside the most accurately counting and reporting affiliate system in the world at XPays.com Posts: 13,002	nysus- nice smoke screen trying to debate cross-sells instead of admitting you were just purely offended and over reacted. you push people's buttons and then they might just say something that bugs you. you assume all surfers are incredibly stupid? the terms and conditions check box is Not pre-checked. The whole process requires affirmative action and the majority of people who purchase pre-checked cross sells use their user/pwd at the purchased site. surfers are more skeptical and less stupid than you give them credit for imho. __________________ InterNext Expo Domain Auction Live Now thru Feb 5 HuntingMoon GFY Domains Marketplace is LIVE XPays always pays! Top Site: * RealJasmine.com * + HotelHeiress® with The Paris Hilton Sex Video Insert the HotelHeiress® HD FEED into your members areas XPin.com Opening for Pin Partners Soonish Mainstream Offers For Emailers and DomainersNONADULT.COM Like Us!

09-23-2004, 01:30 PM	#124
taboo_dude Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: TN Posts: 707	>I was at a site the other day that didn't even have a box, simply small fine print that told them that if they didnt cancel the bonus memberships, they would be charged $39.95 a month. If I remember correctly, they were getting BONUS memberships at 3 other sites. If they didn't cancel within 24 hours, their first month charge was in excess of $125 on a $19.95 join. Now that should be illegal. If I remember the site, I will post it here. That is bad and going to far. On the other hand a pre checked cross sale that is easily identifiable isn't the worst of what is going on..... this is hurting no one expect the ones too lazy to read terms and conditions. Matt, I wouldn't be debating something this hard especially if I encouraged it. "Of course I'm going to be around and benefitting from pre-checked cross-sales, most everyone in this industry currently is. So of I'm going to make money through them while I need to I will because it is a means to an end." But at the same time you have said: "Throughout the rest of this thread I have been questioning the morals of pre-checked cross-sales. I don't agree with them" "Exploitation isn't ethical, yet it happens, and it's quite common, doesn't mean it's the best thing." If they are that bad, practice what you preach. When you say you participate in cross sales, is it because you have no other choice? I respect people that say what they do and do what they say. If you are so determined that they are so bad be an example, and make changes and maybe others will follow. (I wouldn't be pinpointing someone like Chris though on an industry standard no matter how bad my feelings got hurt) If it was something really bad like CP or something similiar, I would no matter who it was, but not over something like cross sells. __________________ If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow. The Duke.

09-23-2004, 01:33 PM	#125
gregtx Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 1,929	Nysus... honestly... lighten up... your moral crusade makes you sound like John Ash*roft.... btw .. Chris' quote would make a great for a great sig line __________________ Processing Partners http://www.processingpartners.com

09-23-2004, 04:31 PM	#129
graphicsbytia Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tennessee Posts: 2,618	morals vs business I think morals should be used to make more money that's what business is all about, it has nothing to do with morals, it has to do with how much you can make and how much power you can weild. The power and profit ultimately come from the consumer, so you run your business in a way that allows you to profit the most, and keep profiting on a consistant basis. If your "business morals" aren't right.. it will show in your profits. Do I agree that unchecked cross sales are immoral? First you have to tell me what the profit margin is compared to checked cross sales, taking into account charge backs. Bringing your own morals and emotion into business are foolish.. considering how other people's morals affect your business is wise Last edited by graphicsbytia; 09-23-2004 at 04:32 PM..

09-23-2004, 04:56 PM	#130
Nysus Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,817	Been a long day. I'll make one long ass reply tomorrow sometime, all will be cleared.. G'night all. Matt __________________ What name is pr0 / Untouched Markets using these days? Untouched Markets - pr0 - Refund My Money Now Someone owes me $2,000 because they didn't do any work that was paid for pointing at pr0 / William / UntouchedMarkets See https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/948258-untouchedmarkets-pr0-refund-money-post16744521.html and for more detailed see https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/948645-re-recent-bullshit-drama-explained-detail-pr0-untouched-markets.html

09-23-2004, 07:10 PM	#135
Aly-Python Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: West Hollywood Posts: 1,439	...still... __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.