Paul Markham

We have lost customers.

The reasons we have lost them are basically we have lost sight of what they need and focused more on what we need. Always bad when you sell a disposable product like porn.

This is a generalisation. So don't shoot it down because of exceptions.

Customers needs.
30 minutes to jerk off to porn that relates to his fantasy and stimulates him to achieve an orgasm. OK there are multiple ways to get to the end result and he might not need 30 minutes, but for everyone who needs 2 hours there are 100 who need 20 minutes. Some need it once a week and others need it twice a day.

Suppliers needs.
We need him to spend enough money to support the industry we have built to market the product. Which is fine until people start to supply him what he needs and take customers away. By not paying the huge marketing costs. The downside of this is these sites tend to be very poor both in quality of image, quality of porn, selection, length and a few other minor points.

If a free product competes with paid product it's no good pointing to the free product as an excuse for failure. They are competing with you for the business, they can profit from the business better then you. For instance if you run a Steak Restaurant selling prime steaks a MacDonalds is no competition. If you're selling burgers no better than MacDonalds and charging 5 times as much you're in trouble.

You can't use MacDonalds as an example of marketing working. They work because they dominate the supply. People have fewer options to choose from in that business than in ours. MacDonalds would never survive if there were 20 different burger bars selling a vastly superior product at a price the consumer is willing to pay.

And there is the key, we have to compete with the sites taking our customers away. But compete for the customer and not the affiliate sending him to us.

Got to go do some work and will return.

__________________



Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500.
PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

spunkmister

what if I go into mcdonalds, get a whole tray of burgers and then start selling them next door? is that considered a good competative business model?

If someone wants to give something away for free thats fine, IF its theirs to give away for free. Its not considered being competative if that person is taking others work and giving it away for free...thats theft.

You can compete with other businesses that are running a business, but how can you compete if you are willing to produce better quality products when that same product will be given away for free on a tube site within a week?

kane

I guess I don't fully agree with this thought process.

Which is better:
1. going out hitting the streets to find customers to come to your store.
or
2. going out and finding 10 people that will hit the streets for you and send customers to your store.

Your job should be making sure the store has something they want to buy and they are treated well when they get there.

Iron Fist

__________________
i like waffles

fallenmuffin

Well, Paul, you had a good run.

Oh - you're not leaving are you?

After Shock Media

Though they have more than 20 different burger bars selling a vastly superior product at a price the consumer is willing to pay. Has nothing at all to do with price but there is where you just will never get it.

__________________

papill0n

With your inate ability to read all aspects of the porn industry you would be worth millions wouldn't you Paul ?

fluffygrrl

The entire argument is a little simplistic.

Price per se is not nearly as important a factor in the porn/sex buyer's decision.

Porn is not much more disposable a product than food altogether is. Sure people may switch to ham form veggies and to alfalfa from ham, but sure as fuck they're gonna eat.

Some parts of porn can be stolen (videos are a prime example), some other parts can't be stolen (model interaction as a prime example).

So, under competition from thieves, porn will move away from stealables and towards unstealables. As afm said, price isn't really an issue, and people competing on price aren't exactly the sharpest in this here shed of dull tools.

Paul Markham

I suggest you go learn how to flip burgers if you don't know the answer to that one.
Seriously it ain't going to stop unless you want to put your hands, yes your hands, very deep into your pockets to pay people to stop it. Yes the police on the streets are paid to stop theft, paid for by you and me.

So how can we compete with sites who steal the product to give away on sites that promote other sites?

As I pointed out these sites lack a lot of things a paysite should offer and things they can't steal or offer in return. The most obvious thing is quality of image. Tube sites have to compress to a level that makes the product poor quality. So speed of download and quality of image are two obvious things.

Next is the porn product, in both quality of porn and selection. Looking on Megarotic I see mostly sample clips, on the first page the average length of a video is 4 minutes 30 seconds. On the most viewed section it 9 minutes. If 9 minutes of a general mix of poor quality videos, poor selection, speed, limited downloading and all the other bad things about this site are stealing customers then what can you do to compete with them?

Maybe not sell the customer 30 days for $30 to a site with 30 videos that are no better than what's on Megarotic is the answer.

You have two options, you compete with the people running Tube sites for the traffic or you pay to police the Internet like you pay to police the streets. Maybe if affiliates took 10% less on sites that paid that money to constantly harass the thieves for stealing only their content.

Then affiliates can choose if they want to promote sites policing their content, for less, or go with those whining about it on GFY and doing little else. Or go with sites offering a product, service and value for money that competes with Tube sites.

There will always be people who will jerk off to anything and will not pay for it. They never did buy porn. The people we lost to Tube sites were people we were charging too much and people who find the disadvantages of a Tube site better than paying $30 for.

You can't charge $30 if 3 cents is all it takes to satisfy the customer.

__________________



Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500.
PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

After Shock Media

I could also try to give away kittens or puppies but I would have much better results placing those same animals in a nicely worded ad for a price tag.

Again this has nothing to do with price. This is just one of your same arguments in an attempt to justify your own thoughts and business models.

Let me just put it bluntly. Since the tubes have really come into play I have also increased one of my sites price by 30% and signups have not slumped at all and in fact have risen. Yet if it was all about how long it takes to wack it and the price it takes to view such wacking material I just reached an impossibility.

__________________

Paul Markham

Agreed 100%. in fact 200%.

The problem is 2 fold. Having enough money to making sure the store has something they want to buy and they are treated well after you have paid to find and keep the 10 people that will hit the streets for you.

At no time will I say you do not have to market a product. What I'm saying is you need to market a bad product twice as much as a good product.

Second point is knowing what the customers want when they arrive. There are some very skilled people running very good affiliate programs. Problem is they don't know as much about the customers needs in todays market. Yes some do.

I was approached recently by a big sponsor to discuss shooting porn that will sell and I feel retain. After giving him the quotes he said he can't afford it. On joins he can, but once 50% of his turnover goes on marketing he can't. So his next site will be bog standard and the same as 100 other sites.

Which leads us back to the problem spunkmister raised. What's the point of policing content when it will not bring the surfer over to buy? If there is little difference between producers ABC blonde teen on a sofa porn and producer XYZ blonde teen on a sofa porn. Then why should the surfer rush over to spend money because ABC polices his content?

If you produce a product no different than 100 other people there's little point in protecting it. The free surfer will not rush over to you if he can get something else similar.

__________________



Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500.
PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

Paul Markham

Not now that I'm married to Eva. She will not leave Czech and I will not sit at home retired in Czech. So you guys will have me up your asses for a long time to come. LOL

The point of this thread is to open debate and discuss the way we run our industry.

Obviously some people are doing very well and people sending traffic to sites owned by people like ASM will be immune from the slow down, in fact they will be earning more money. Because ASM is not spamming or blowing smoke up our asses.

__________________



Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500.
PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

polish_aristocrat

biggest problem, the amount of free porn, tube sites in particular

hell, few years ago, I used to be an occassional porn consumer
right now, all you need is Megarotic

lots of 10 minutes + porn videos of teens, amateurs, asians etc completely for free! - I surely don't need anything more ;)

and most "hungry" porn consumers don't need more either...

let's not forget that 2 years ago people were upset about 30 seconds clips on MGP's!!! and right now already the tube sites are standard and you don't even see people talking about thehun on GFY anymore... which was an icon of this industry for years...

also, paying for porn is not only a matter of $$$. its quite a hassle actually, it's matter of time, of scrubbing, of submitting your personal information (last years news about thousands of porn consumers data being stolen didn't help us for sure,), the risk that your wife will read your CC statement, the risk of getting your email spammed, having potential problems with cancelling, being surprised by 'hidden charges' aka cross-sales etc... More people were willing to take the hassle if there was no full-time free porn alternative, like there is nowadays.

for a webmaster it's definitely harder and harder to make a sale nowadays for sure
but since the changes didn't happen overnight, then people don't have a direct comparison to how it was, say, 6 years ago

if suddenly conversions became as good as 6 years ago, everyone would be suddenly earning two, three times more $$$

and 6 years ago was already bad compared to the golden days of the 90's

right now people are saying that if you want to test a sponsor, you need to send at least 10k of traffic.
few years ago only the 'semi-players' could even send 10k uniques in a day, because with average conversion of 1:300, you were doing great already with much less

personally I don't really look optimistic at the future of the online adult biz. Need to switch a little to mainstream soon, I guess.

__________________
I don't use ICQ anymore.

After Shock Media

My personal site is not even listed in my sig so nice try. However the program that is listed there is converting very well. My own site has very few affiliates at all and the majority of traffic is self generated. I do not want more affiliates to my personal site.

I am also far from immune to issues that appear in this business. Never did I even lead on that I was. I just stated that I have indeed raised prices and also seen an increase in signups. Reason being it has nothing at all to do with price, yet you still do not get it.

Perhaps I have also been through several other business catastrophes before. Hell I can just reference owning a comic & game shop. Speculators and greed ruined that industry. Comic titles went from millions of issues sold on a national level per month, to the most famous titles no longer even breaking 200,000 per month. Fuck even Marvel filed for bankruptcy. However it was survivable if you operating properly. Games also took a major hit. The whole internet thing along with high end consoles did not help at all.

Or maybe I have based a business model off of bottled water. Hell we all can get quality water for free right out of several outlets in our houses or at faucets around towns. Yet others will spend a buck or two on a bottle, others ten or twenty, and even others fifty or more. Now why would someone pay fifty bucks or more for a bottle of water? Answer that and you will begin to get it.

__________________

kane

True enough. If you have junk content that doesn't retain members all the marketing in the world isn't going to help you. But my original point was that competing over customers is not as important as competing over affiliates.

Here is an example. Which would you rather have:

1. An average site with average porn that has a good group of affiliates sending traffic. You make a profit of 20K per month. Your site converts pretty well and has average or slightly below average retention, but you make up for lower retention in volume. In a year you put 240K in your pocket. You continue to get affiliates and work on growing those numbers.

or

2. You focus on creating top notch, stunning content that blows people doors off. You don't worry about competing over affiliates, instead you market the site yourself. But you are just one person (or a small company of a couple of people) so after all the time you spend making the site amazing you don't have as much time to market it. You end up getting great signup ratios and above average retention and make 5K a month profit and put 60K in your pocket over a year. Your site is 10 times better than the other site, but you don't have the marketing team to get it out to the masses so you can't attract the traffic to really make it fly.

In a perfect world you would have both. Great content and great marketing, but that is not something easy to do. There are some programs that seem to pull that off, but it takes some big money and serious effort to put all that together. Porn isn't field of dreams. If you build it, they won't just come. You need get people out there and let them know it is there and that they need to see it. Two people can compete over customers and whoever has the better product will often win. But if one person is working alone and the other has a group working for him, the guy with the group will almost always win even if he doesn't have the best product.

Some Guy

The only problem with the market is that everybody and their cousin runs a fucking website these days, and most of them all suck. Too much out there to choose from now.

__________________

Need a Cheap Design? - Cheap Quality Content Available!

Fuck you Michelle Malkin and Fox News

Paul Markham

So what's the solution?

This is thread about the solutions and answers. We all know the problems and questions.

Kane I understand what you're saying. The only way forward today is to produce a product that is worth paying for, at a price the consumer is willing to pay and worth protecting. In that it's different enough to make it worth protecting. Producing the same old scenes that have been done 100,000 times before is pointless and then you have to attract the affiliates and spend money to get them.

By producing a product that appeals more to the surfers you sell more and don't need to spend so much on marketing. Nice if you can spend it on both but in the real world you can't. It's product first or marketing first.

It's the balance between the two. I will be launching a site that is pretty well unique and can't be duplicated. I will not need to spend a fortune to market it. If you have the traffic I need and don't send it you will lose, the traffic will find me. It's a generalisation, but I'm sure you get my idea?

Build a better mouse trap and you need to talk to a few people. Build the same one as everyone else and you need to tell a lot of people a lot of times.

__________________



Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500.
PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

fluffygrrl

Got an afil link ?

kane

Fair enough. In response to the title of this thread we are not losing customers, they are just spread out more. It is the same thing with reports that profits industry wide are down. That might be true, but it is misleading. Some businesses might be making less money, but the industry as a whole isn't. The difference, as Some Guy said, is that there are a million sites out there. When I got into this business there were a lot of affiliate programs, but nothing like there are today and there were not nearly the number of webmasters. So the same amount of money (or more) is being spent on porn it is just spread out over more people now.

In the end if you can produce something different, you could attract an audience. People will buy if you give them something worth buying. Every day someone buys a luxury car that costs 50K when they could have gone and bought a decent car for 20K, but they like and want the better car so they are willing to spend. I have been spending my time doing two things: 1. working on finding the customers that have not yet found tube sites and things like that and 2. people looking for something specific that is harder to find. If you want hot naked teens there are millions of them for free all over the place. If you want something a little different it is harder to find and people wanting it will pay for it.

I have said before and will say again that I don't think this business is going anywhere soon. The tube sites are fads right now, but I still think most of those are a business model that is born to fail. They may not close down, but they will eventually be forced to change their format enough that they will lose some users and if they end up with a bunch of bookmarkers leeching off their bandwidth, fine with me. I want people that will spend money, let someone else get the freeloaders off on their dime.

stev0

30 minutes - 2 hours?? Damn...

That's a lot of porn... Personally, I think everyone skips to the good parts.

kane

lol I'm skilled enough I just need about 2 minutes of a scene.

RoCkMaN

Here's why the industry is dying: TOO MANY WEBMASTERS GIVING AWAY FREE PORN.

__________________
The Hockey Board - Smash Mouth Hockey
Teal Gorilla - Monkey Loves Money
BLOGGING FOR BANK - Make a living with your blog.

fris

what about magic join links?

__________________
Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence.


WP Stuff

Paul Markham

Another nail gets hit squarely on the head.

In general I would agree with you, even in some small niches it's all cloned vanilla porn and the emphasis has to be on marketing. Too much to choose from and not enough reasons to choose any.

In general.

Yes Kane, people will buy if you give them enough good reasons and yes we have saturated the Net with porn sites and the industry with affiliates, which has led to most earning less. My solution is to think about the buyer first and the affiliate second. Not to ignore him completely, just not to put him at the front.

The customer is King and the person whispering in his ear the Queen. ;)

I also think Tube sites with legal content will take over from TGPs. The effect it has on sign ups will be small. The days are gone when a guy who needs 10 minutes will pay $30 for it. Generally speaking.

But here's the problem.

1. How much money will it need to get a site that marketed by affiliates to profit by $20,000 a month? How much content, hosting, programming, etc. Then add marketing. This way the site owner might clear $3 to $6 a sign up. Discounting exceptions. That's 3,333 to 6,666 members signing up a month. Few sites or sponsors will do that with a bog standard site.

2. A top notch site that does not need heavy marketing. It will need 1,000 to 1,333 members a month if they market in house. But if they just stick an affiliate program on the side and give a little help and promote it a bit news travels fast. If the site is that good and converting well affiliates stay, they also tell others. That's the gravy.

The problem is creating the site with the porn that's going to separate you from the herd. Today separating from the herd is the essential ingredient.

__________________



Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500.
PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

kmanrox

i don't see why so many ppl jump up to break paul's balls... at lease he puts himself out there with his opinion, you ppl that jump on him sit back and wait to trash other people's OPINIONs, yet don't offer yours... if you guys would spend some time pondering trends in business maybe you'd be better off, no?

__________________
Crypto HODLr
Crypto mining
Angel investor

nation-x

I think that this is a great conversation... I commend Paul for starting a purposeful business conversation.

I don't run a paysite... I don't own a program... I am an affiliate. That said I would interject my opinion... take it for what it is. If you look at the paysite market it's easy to see that the statements above are very true... there are too many paysites and too many affiliates. I think that we need to take a strong look at what's next.

Personally, I don't think people purchase memberships purely to satisfy a 30 second need. Some do... but if you look at the popularity of solo girls and amateurs, currently, you can see a clear motivation other then that masturbation opportunity. There are underlying motivators in addition to ejaculation that most adult sites don't even market to. I think it's pure business 101 to keep an eye on your market (and associated markets) in an effort to flow with the times, especially if your product has reached it's plateau and has moved into mid life. I see that most programs deal with this product life cycle by introducing new products... some win and some don't.

All of this talk about "the decline of porn" is funny to me. The internet is NEW MEDIA. We are just at the beginning. I think that there is HUGE opportunity for companies that can think outside of the current "box" and figure out that the market is much larger then they initially thought and that they have been focused on a very small part of the market.

Every year porn is more and more mainstream. I think that successful companies of the future will learn to market to lifestyle and expand their product lines. A year ago or so I heard about a company that has a stupid ass VP who basically blew off an advertising opportunity where a mainstream film company wanted to market an upcoming film on this porn companies traffic site. I might be wrong about the exact numbers but from what I heard this advertising revenue would have been in the neighborhood of $250k. If this venture would have been profitable for the advertiser then I have no doubt that it would have led to a long term relationship and a huge proverbial foot in the door for this adult company to market mainstream products. The real issue here is that this adult company has elevated an under qualified individual to a position that affects the bottom line of the company... pure and simple. The lesson above is twofold... the adult market should expand to include more adult oriented products then just porn and also need to evaluate whether the people working at the company have the experience and knowledge to bring your company into a successful future.

Now I will rant about affiliate marketing. How much are you spending on dealing with affiliate fraud? How much do charge backs cost you? How many of you have experienced people auditing your affiliates? How many of you allow affiliates from every third world country on earth? I think that affiliates built alot of your business but at this point in time you need to audit them. I don't mean fuck them over... I mean you need a better affiliate selection process and more stringent requirements to allow promotion of your products. I think you need identity verification and affiliate responsibility. Alot of you accept traffic from every crap site on earth. I can guarantee that investing in hiring people that have REAL experience in the industry as affiliates to audit your affiliates, handle your marketing, generate your own traffic, etc would be a great investment for most of you.

The bottom line is that you need to take a close look at each dept in your company and figure out how to increase your return. There are alot of companies out there with idiots in important positions... I know... I have met them at shows. After you have completed that task, you should look at your market share and think about what needs to be done to increase it. Stop bitching about lower profit margins and take action.

fluffygrrl

The above reads like a plea from an affiliate to have the paysites spend their own money to erect barriers to entry in the affiliate's market, so he can then profit by it.

Not so different from us corps lobbying the govt to have it use the us consumer's tax money to fuck over the same consumer.

Lucikly, in porn, unlike in politics, that'll never happen.

nation-x

Then you had better learn to read... if that is what you got out of my post then it's apparent that you didn't understand it.

fluffygrrl

Mayhaps I didn't.

Robbie

More endless debate on "Business Models". I've made millions in the last 10 years...and my only "business model" was my instinct and knowing what made my dick hard. This ain't brain surgery, but at the same time it isn't as simple as "the surfer needs a minute to jerk off" either.
We can all jerk off WITHOUT porn. I can make images in my head. And so can everybody else.
The reason that some people's "business models" may or may not be working is because there is NO business model.
What a PERSON (you might call them "surfers") wants is a little more complicated than that. Keeping all things equal and taking into account that everyone has different fetishes and things that turn them on the most, you have to realize that it's more in depth than JUST jerking off.
I know that the people who may not have had the same real world experiences as me won't believe me. And that's cool. But I can tell you that prostitutes...the real high dollar ones, don't make their money by fucking. They make it by providing something else.
And that's how the highest selling sites on the internet operate as well. You provide what a person needs to satisfy their fetish AND you provide them with the desire to return.
I'll leave it up to you and your "business models" to figure that one out.
And of course you still give them something to jerk off to in 20 seconds...that's a given. But the interaction and sense of "belonging" is what separates sucessful sites from the generic "cookie cutter" sites using "business models".
That's only my opinion, and I'm sure there are plenty of you who think I'm wrong.

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

wanted

I've heard McDonald is working on a McPorn..

watch out, this is the next big thing in adult..

__________________
Living the dream.

Paul Markham

It's easy to just say bullshit and leave it at that. To state why it's BS puts your head above the parapet and can get it blown off.

Different people have different ways of making it work. Robbie has it right one way, make it for yourself and hope others like what you like. Look around at the sites that started that way and look at their success. They help us all, because their customers stay customers on the Internet.

I will continue to go the route I have followed for the last 8 years.

Good post nation-x. We approve very single affiliates before they access the the content area. Many of them that apply and fill in the form at CCBILL are not real affiliates, some give everrything from our site to Yahoo.com as their site. Some name a site that does not exist and some a site that when I check the Whois is listed to someone else or not to them or hidden. When I email them and tell them to put up a banner they often don't even reply.

Surfers or affiliates who think I should not be concerned at who is sending me traffic? Either way thay can go jump in a lake. When was the last time you affiliates were approved to the free content?

Then there are affiliates who do have sites and log in reguarly, yet never send traffic or very very little. Only a few but they are there and complain the moment I block them. No idea what they are doing, but I know what they are not doing. Sending sign ups.

Most affiliates are fine and range from those doing one a month to those do many a day. But keeping an eye on the others is good for the ones we need.

fluffygrrl these guys are the minority, but they are out there. Do you want to be sending traffic to a site with an open door policy on it's affiliates area? Some affiliates area have more content in them than many sites.

__________________



Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500.
PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

Redrob

I'll take a double cheeseburger, fries, and coke...and supersize it!

Paul Markham

Great post Robbie. You touch on what some people fail to understand.

People who can jerk off to anything don't buy memberships in the numbers any part of this industry needs to survive. Never had and never will.

However look back at the posts telling people not to put too much hardcore in a TGP gallery or the surfer will get off and not join. Clueless advice like this and other similar pieces of wisdom, has misled more affiliates than anything. The guys that jerk off to a gallery are not a target market for a 30 day membership. Forget about them and sell to those who will buy.

The reasons people join a site on a constant basis are simple. Convenience and the porn fills their specific DEVELOPED needs. And not because they can't rub one out to a 20 image gallery.

Just one example of many pieces of bad advice handed out.

__________________



Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500.
PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

Redrob

Paul, I think you are right. Some men can get off when the wind blows, when they see a Calvin Klein ad, or when they see cleavage on a bus. These aren't our buying public.

eMonk

i believe tgps/mgps will share the market along with tubes, torrents, forums, rapidshare, irc, newsgroups, etc.

if tubes do take over the tgp/mgp model in the future, then owners will just switch up their scripts & now we have an ass load of tubes sites.

fris

magic join links!

__________________
Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence.


WP Stuff

Paul Markham

Watch this space is all I will say. Got some plans for $5 dollars porn that will be coming into shape soon.

Do you mean on $5 dollars porn?

__________________



Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500.
PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

eMonk

also, there are lots of surfers interested in pics (tgps). mgps & tubes both provide movies.

eMonk

www.1dollarporn.com

DamageX

Of course you can. All you need to do is to convince the customer that the $30 satisfaction is $29.7+ worth superior to the $0.03 satisfaction. But then again I wouldn't actually expect you to be familiar with marketing theories.

BTW, it's McDonald's. Read the name when you pass one, it has no A in it.

__________________

tranza

Seriously, I think you're the DUMBEST person in this business.

__________________
I'm just a newbie.

DamageX

Nah, he's just stubborn as fuck, not dumb.

__________________

Dirty Dane

Surfers want simple designs and fast loading sites. They want to jerk off. Most want it free, some will pay, and some can't pay. People with money are your customers.. and don't fuck with them.

ShellyCrash

I hear what you're saying. But the way I see it it would be like sneaking into Mc D's back door, stealing trays of big macs, and then giving them away on the corner for free

__________________

Start making money with the hottest hookup site!
up to $55 PPS or up to 75% Revshare
ICQ 196766477

MRock

Way ahead of ya' Paul, a good idea I think. It already works for me. See http://www.ddmilf.com , http://www.girlsthatsmoke.com , and http://www.jack2jill.com Same concept I think, but slightly different structure (each has it's own domain ) and I don't use such a low price point.

__________________
Sell more Jill: Strapon Gurl Clips - Pixaloons Video Clips - Busty Smoker Clips

pornguy

So bitch you gonna hire me to pro mote u store??? Huh??

What you say is only partially true. yes you need to have 10 people advertising by your JOB is not to see that the customer is treated right. Your job is EVERY aspect of the business. Promoting, selling, accounting, stocking, fixing, buying, you name it.

__________________
PornGuy skype me pornguy_epic

AmateurDough The Hottes Shemales online!
TChicks.com | Angeles Cid | Mariana Cordoba | MAILERS WELCOME!

pornguy

Sorry should have said that the " So bitch " statement was made in my best homie voice.

__________________
PornGuy skype me pornguy_epic

AmateurDough The Hottes Shemales online!
TChicks.com | Angeles Cid | Mariana Cordoba | MAILERS WELCOME!

Barefootsies

Always entertaining..

__________________
Should You Email Your Members?

Link1 | Link2 | Link3

Enough Said.

"Would you rather live like a king for a year or like a prince forever?"

DamageX

Yep, he should change his name from Paul Markham to Paul The Entertainer.

__________________