baddog

have to make this short, writing between rounds. My boss? Who the heck is that? My affiliates?

KK, I don't know what you are trying to read into things, but there are no compliance issues.

There could be a white heavyweight champ soon.

Kevin2

Imagine if all the AVS webmasters took their content dumped it into one members area for their own pay site and used all their tour pages to promote this pay site. It's an idea.

Of course this would never happen because of the rebills

__________________

Webmasters Trade Traffic!!!

Snake Doctor

Here's another can of worms.

What if webmasters just paid $750 to register all of their urls and we left the AVS model the same?

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sig too big

Jeffne

You got me thinking! Hmmm. Wife's B-day weekend or BlackJack with you.... Which hotel should I make my reservation at?

My wife would kill me and I am sure Kimmy would tell her how?

I will catch you next time, and yes, I am practicing the two finger flip...it's all in the wrist....

Carrie

Because the AVS webmasters do not WANT to pay the $750 fee. If they did, they'd be running paysites right now, not worrying about doing search/replace on all of their pages in 24-48 hours.

For the record, it blows my mind that FreeAgePass sent out this letter on Saturday and said they're going to start deactivating on Sunday. That is INSANE.

Oh, and for the fellow at the beginning of the thread who was pissed because this was done on a weekend and the AVS programs had evidently never heard of "business hours"... you just don't get this business, do you? This isn't a bank, baby - we don't play 9-5 and then shut down.
Let me amend that - the webmasters who are serious about their business and looking at this AS their own business and who are out to make money don't play 9-5. If you want to, have fun with your porn hobby. It isn't going to last long.

psyko514

I haven't read the whole thread yet. But I read this and it's pretty fucking obvious you don't know sweet fuck all about what you're talking about.

If you're processing with an IPSP, Visa/MC does not take a percentage of earnings. Your processor does. They're not a charity. If you have your own merchant account, you pay a miniscule transaction fee to accept Visa/MC. In the long run, it's worth it because it brings you business. If you don't agree with the transaction fee, you don't have to accept credit cards.

Concerning the registration fee and all the papers, this isn't a new rule. It's been around for a while and everyone else has to conform to it. Visa just started to enforce the rules for adult sites processing with an IPSP.

As for chargeback investigations. Currently, there is only one valid way to prove that the guy initiating the chargeback is the guy who signed up for your site. <b>You have to prove that the IP address used to sign up for your site was assigned to the credit card holder on that day, at that time.</b> To prove that, you have to subpoena his ISP and get them to release access logs for that day, for that customer.

If you can somehow find out how to get a subpoena or get access to those logs legally, then please, by all means, share it with us!

__________________

chodadog

Could someone in the know answer me some questions.

What is the reasoning behind some of these changes, in particular, the wording. I understand the point about the term "AVS" but what is so wrong about using "Access to multiple sites" as a selling point?

It seems to make no sense to me.

Also, does this only effect AVS's processing with third party billers (assuming there are any that use their own merchant account), or does it effect the AVS model no matter what?

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26 + 6 = 1

Plucky

It all depends on how you define a site. I think if Visa says sites costs $750 each then to be in compliance you can't use that wording for AVS sites. You could say "access to multiple domains" but surfers are idiots and probably wouldn't even know what that meant!

I think the best solution is to just explain how much content you have. (ie. over 2 million pics, movies, etc) I use it on my Adult Bouncer and Deluxe Pass sites and it works fine. Those former AVS's seem to be already in compliance with this visa bullshit. I'm still waiting for the last minute to change my sexkey sites! Not going to be fun..

The Other Steve

Carrie - Ludedude has been around for years - it's not a hobby to him anymore than it is a hobby to you or I.

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Left intentionally blank ... just like my brain

jas1552

How about if a company wanted to have a totally free for life AVS and never charged anybody for anything but made all their money on upsells inside the AVS? How could that ever be considered IPSP. Visa might not like being used to verify age but if there is no cost at all can they do anything about it?

How about if an AVS was completely free for life itself but gave the surfer a free or paid trial to a paysite that could rebill and considered webmasters to be affiliates for the paysite. Giving them the privilege of promoting that paysite if they choose their AVS to protect their site completely for free. How can Visa claim they're preventing fraud when the surfer is not being charged for access to any possibly fraudulent website. I mean even if the participating site in question has no content at all and no value who cares? It's free. The paysite which has already been registered and for which the $750 fee has already been payed is all that would cost the surfer anything.

Does that make sense?

Carrie

By the time I got to the end of the thread I couldn't remember *who* said it. I agree, Ludedude doesn't take this as a hobby and he's been around far longer than I.
Which makes it seem even more far-fetched that he'd make such a stink about "business hours".
Lude?

Tipsy

Not really, no. I know quite a lot of people do this as a living and make good money that also have partners, family and friends and do minimal work at the weekend because of this. So for them it is an even bigger pain in the ass. Just because you and I don't have a life (and obviously many others kicking around in this business) it doesn't mean the rest of the people out there are the same. However, also not sure how serious ludedude was when posting it ;)

__________________
Ignorance is never bliss.

Tipsy

I'd never thought of that *cough* ;)

Slightly more seriously I don't consider this a bad thing (at the moment) other than the stupid amount of work it'll make. Only time will tell how this truly pans out. My only real gripes like I say were the timing issues, especially as on balance I don't agree about the affiliate support either but that's a seperate issue that doesn't belong in this thread.

Overall like often happens in this business it's yet another change that you have to adapt to and take advantage of or sit back and fade. Should be interesting to see how this all turns out once the dust has settled and even interesting to see if this does end up being the final change for a while to the system formerly known as AVS.

__________________
Ignorance is never bliss.

SexkeyCraig

There are actually a few reasons behind the changes.

First of all, the credit card companies hate the misnomer that a surfer is validating their age by using a credit card. This is not 100% accurate, and they want no part of being responsible for age verifcation.

Secondly, Visa also wants to be able to make sure sites don't use and abuse the system, and then quietly change billing companies without any repercussions. That is why they insituted the registration, so that they could track repeat offenders.

In regards to an AVS, there are these small "sites" of which alot of smaller webmasters could not justify registering each and every one for the $750 fee. Their business model is too small. AVS at the time filled this need. We all know however that when you total all the newbie traffic, it adds up. Visa wants someone to be responsible for this content and the promises made on the sites. That is why we are setting up our program the way we are, in order to comply with the new guidelines, and to move forward with where the industry is heading.

In response to everyone's gripe about the short notice. I can honestly tell you we found out about it and our choice was to either not give everyone a chance to fix their site this weekend, or to simply de-list every site and add them back in as changes were made. We knew changes were coming but until we felt we knew exactly what changes needed to be made we were handcuffed. The day we found out we then changed our site and then immediately announced it. Others companies we heard also sent out similar requests. I am not sure if they heard from other sources, but they too felt the need to get this done.

As tired as i am, I don't want to bitch because I know alot of you are every bit as tired. Again, we are sorry for the short notice, but we are hopeful that you will appreciate knowing what is going on and being a part of the changes.

We know we have a time limit and we want to be ready so that we will not incur any downtime.

Most importantly, I want to thank those who have made every attempt they could to assist us. We appreciate your support, and we will remember this when you need help. Let me know if you have additional questions.

For those of you who felt they did not have the needed time to do the changes and will either attempt them later or go to another AVS, we understand where you are coming from. No one wants to be forced to do something. We believe that these changes are going to have to be made, and it is far better to do them as quickly as we can. If you believe that the AVS's who are not making the changes won't have to, or who can afford to wait, I can simply say, we'll see........ Thanks everyone, and Dwayne and I are running shifts all day and night to assist. (how did i get the 5 a.m. Sunday morning shift ;) I can be reached at [email protected] and [email protected] and [email protected]

chodadog

Thanks for the reply. So, if the changes were not made, each site would have to cough up 750 bucks? I mean, accross the system. Just a hypothetical question. I know it's not going to happen.

__________________
26 + 6 = 1

Ludedude

Hi Carrie, yes it was indeed me who made that post.

I realize that a great many webmasters treat this as a 7 day a week, 24 hour a day deal where you've force yourself to be at the beck and call of this infernal machine whenever and wherever. The truth is, I do this so I don't have to ever be in that situation again. This business gives me the ability to actually have a life outside of these 4 walls and I take advantage of that as often as I can. I don't say this is a 9-5 gig; sometimes it's a 12-8 gig or a 4 to midnight gig or even a 9 to 9 gig. I've put in plenty of hours and those who have been around this industry for the past 3 going on 4 years know me and that I'm a hard worker. I do like to pretend that there is a modicum of normalcy in my life and have attempted to get my work done during the week so that I can enjoy the company of my friends on the weekends.

Look at some of the bigger companies in this business, and since we're talking about AVS lets look at them. AdultCheck and Cyberage are closed (except for skeleton staff) on the weekends. You can't tell me that they don't take this seriously? My coment was meant to illustrate the fact that I find it bizarre, even presumptuous, for someone to assume that you or I have nothing better to do on a weekend than patch up sites at someones whim.

I don't mean to imply that sexkey is pulling anyones chain, exactly the opposite. It's good that they are looking for a solution to a huge problem. I just refuse to be chained to this machine at times where the rest of my reality is doing anything but working...

With that rant out of my system, it's only right for me to say that I folded and had all (many hundreds) of my sites modified, uploaded and given a quick once over by a member of the SexKey staff on Friday night. I should practice what I preach more often.

My point is that sometimes if you want to be taken seriously and be treated legitimately you need to get the slave-labor mentality out of your head. No one works 24-7. Yes, crisis' do happen and at that point you do need to be there to take action but that can't be true every day of every year. Get out there and live a little. I have and I feel better for it.

__________________

SexkeyCraig

Yes. Every "site" has to be registered and accept responsibity for what is inside their site.

And yes, what we believe is that every site will have to be registered and pay the $750. We are working now to announce some new programs that will help these webmasters, but i don't want to get into spam, or into the announcements until we first get our site cleaned up. The future looks hard, but it also looks hopeful!!!! Stay tuned......

Flow

I hope you realize that if webmasters have to pay $750 for "EVERY" site, the porn affiliate formerly known as AVS will be dead. So few webmasters will pay this that the link list on AVS sites will only have a few hundred (if that) sites on them and who is gonna wanna pay the AVS membership fee for a few hunderd sites? Not too many if you ask me. And again, if a person is going to pay the $750 per site, don't you think they are going to make a paysite instead?

By the way, all you TGP and link list submitters are about to get some major competition as those of us that can no longer afford to use AVS on our sites (assuming this comes into play) will be turning to those things and others to generate sponsor sales. Only the elite will survive. Thank God this is only a hobby for me and that I make a shit load of money at my real job.


Flow

Quotealex

What is wrong with running this as a 9-5 biz? Some have offices with employees working 9-5 on weekdays. Are they supposed to call these employees and ask them to come to work this weekend at twice the hourly rate?

Tipsy

Thanks Craig. An awful lot was either being totally ignored or only half answered at best. That really clears up a lot of it. Always nice when any company takes time to communicate stuff properly. So few bother.

__________________
Ignorance is never bliss.

SexkeyCraig

I agree that alot of wembasters can't or won't pay $750 but the good news is that models are changing. Even the term AVS is going to go away. There will be new programs for these webmasters, and they will be designed to keep the small webmaster in mind. All ll I am saying is that they have to be done according to the new guidelines.

This industry is good at adapting, and when we understand the rules, the industry as a whole is quick to pick up on new models.

It's not doom and gloom, it just change.

Big Monkie

Say what you want about not dooming and glooming, but this is a huge blow to avs for two reasons.

1. If $750 has to be paid for every site instead of just every webmaster, that alone will be a killer problem. Perhaps there will be massive consolidation of multiple sites into single ones, but even that presents a lot of problems.

2. If you cant advertise access to other sites then your primary sales pitch is gone.

just a punk

I have to agree... Avscraig, what do you think about this?

__________________
Obey the Cowgod

Kel

ASD - Adult Site Directory.

sexyavs

Why use an AVS/Site Directory?

You get an awful lot of pre qualified, already whipped out the cc at least once , horny surfers...

That is a GREAT reason to use an avs.. dont forget the amount of traffic that an avs will send to you..

I dont really know any other link lists that provide you with such a large amount of prequalified surfers..

And if you think running a paysite is that easy... oy!

Don't blame sexkey, freeagecard or any of the avs companys.. this is all tied into Visa.. and of course, blame ccbill.. just kiddin Jeff..

I know our new rules are coming, as are everyones.. We just use a different processor and havent been told yet. But thats coming soon.


Chris

__________________
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just a punk

Who need such "the amount of traffic that an avs will send to" if that will be a weak traffic because only a few webmasters will accept the new rules ($750 a year per each site). So that will be very small link list and I don't think there will be a number of really stupid surfers who will buy the membership for it...

__________________
Obey the Cowgod

Carrie

The larger operations who actually have offices and staff normally work "business" hours, but you have to admit that the *majority* of webmasters out here in pornland work out of our homes. "Business hours" are whatever we make of it.

As for those large operations - oy. Well, at least they *have* the staff to help make the changes, it should be done pretty quickly.

sexyavs

Cyberxxx


You need to go read the thread.. your missing what the rules are.

Chris

__________________
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XYCash

its not per site..its per processor. And that only applies to IPSPs and their sponsored merchants...not sure what the charge may be for AVS sites

__________________
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Carrie

Craig, you keep mentioning over and over again how you guys wanted to be compliant on Monday.
SexKey and FreeAgePass are both stressing that this has to be done by Monday.

But no one has mentioned... why Monday?

I'll ask it straight out... Craig, what is Visa going to do on Monday?

just a punk

What do yo mean Chris? Please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere...

__________________
Obey the Cowgod

sexyavs

Ah I see where you are gettin confused on the $750


There is no $750 charge per site/webmaster coming. I believe Craig was speaking hypothetically on someones question.

But the rules are changing but go by what was originally posted at the beginning of this thread.

There is no 750 fee coming.. that I know of anyway..

__________________
<br>
<a href="http://www.sexypassport.com/webmaster/webmaster.php?siteid=752359">Join the Highest Paying FREE AVS. </a><br>
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Kimmykim

Well the champs still black and nothing else has changed either.

There are some definite compliance issues.

Ludedude

__________________

tony286

As for chargeback investigations. Currently, there is only one valid way to prove that the guy initiating the chargeback is the guy who signed up for your site. You have to prove that the IP address used to sign up for your site was assigned to the credit card holder on that day, at that time. To prove that, you have to subpoena his ISP and get them to release access logs for that day, for that customer.

If you can somehow find out how to get a subpoena or get access to those logs legally, then please, by all means, share it with us!


The problem here in the USA is they make it very easy to cb. A phone call or now log the cc site and its done. The way to slow it down, is to make the card holder sign a document swearing to what he /she stated as stating that fraud is a crime. That would slow it down also issue new cards. If someone else used your cc card number without your knowledge that means its stolen. Issue a new number but comes back to what I said before and you disagree its a money maker or if it wasnt they would stop it tomorrow lol.

psyko514

Like I've stated, there are many valid chargeback reasons that have nothing to do with fraud.

If a customer says "I signed up for the site because they said they had 1 million pics, but they only had 100", would it be logic could make him change his account number?

__________________

psyko514

tony404, i get the feeling you think i'm on visa's side.

i'm an adult webmaster as well. and i was one before i started working for visa. chargebacks affect me too.

working for visa lets me see both sides of the coin. and things are not as black and white as everyone thinks. there's a lot of grey areas.

if you wanna take it as black and white, then keep this in mind. visa is a business. not a community service or charity organization. their primary goal is to make money. if they have to choose between keeping millions of credit card holders happy or keeping thousands of webmasters happy, what do you think they would choose.

you're bothered by chargebacks? get away from the IPSP model and get your own merchant account. you'll see how quickly your cb ratio drops.

__________________

Ludedude

How about some rudimentary investigation of the complaint? In every other industry the merchant gets a chance to rebut the complaint; here we just get bent over and fucked without lube.

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XYCash

ayup..he's right :-)

__________________
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XYCash

nope...we dispute every chargeback..and many get reversed:-)

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sexyavs

There is only 1 side

Visa's!

So get on it..

__________________
<br>
<a href="http://www.sexypassport.com/webmaster/webmaster.php?siteid=752359">Join the Highest Paying FREE AVS. </a><br>
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tony286

you're bothered by chargebacks? get away from the IPSP model and get your own merchant account. you'll see how quickly your cb ratio drops.


Been thinking about that but the cost is high and all the third party processors paint horror pictures of what will happen to you. Why will the ratios drop when you get your own ?

psyko514

who says you don't have the chance to rebut chargebacks against you? of course you have the chance.

if you have your own merchant account, your bank will inform you of every chargeback and you'll have 45 days to rebut it. you'll have some success, but not much.

if you're with an IPSP, their bank informs them of every chargeback. they don't take the time to rebut them because it really isn't worth it.

__________________

Ludedude

Sorry, I wasn't clearer. Yes, I meant if you're with an IPSP. Obviously if you have your own merchant account you will get notified by your bank of what's happening with your account.

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jas1552

I think what he was saying is there are two completely seperate issues.
1. claim of age verification
2. visa's interpretation of the avs model regardless of name as an IPSP where company 1 charges a surfer for access to content owned by company 2.
I hope I'm wrong but I think he wasn't speaking hypothetically. It will no longer be possible to make a site and promote it as you would a paysite without paying the $750 fee for that site and having it registered.

XYCash

BUT..if you have your own merchant account...guess who VISA will be gunning for next? Just my own personal opinion...but me thinks it will be us

__________________
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psyko514

of course the IPSPs are going to try to stop you from switching you your own merchant account.

your ratios will drop because you'll be in full control of everything. you'll be able to dispute chargebacks. you'll also control the descriptor that appears on the customers statement. that'll reduce the "unrecognized charge" chargebacks.

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psyko514

Like I said, your IPSP gets notified of all chargebacks. They choose to not dispute them because it's not worth it financially.

__________________

crescentx

Psyko, I do see VISA's side...somewhat. But if we as adult merchants are held accountable for CB, then why not the customers? If VISA incurs a cost - which I plainly think is dubious, I do not see this meshing with allowing customers to cancel recurring billing by chargeback - then why not look at the customers and say - Joe Schmo used his card for $2800 in purchases in the past six months. But we've seen $75 in chargebacks he's initiated. That's 2.6% which is a little high. Maybe we need to keep a close eye on what he's doing? Hmmm...*lots* of internet activity - Amazon, CCBill, it's all mostly online. So this guy is obviously online in a pretty big way, and he has initiated three chargebacks. He's costing us money, and since it's obvious he's an active internet user, why is he sending us so many chargebacks? Sites that accept VISA are bound by pretty strict rules. We need to put him under review.

I've said until my face is blue: hold customers to the same standards as webmasters, I can accept that *IF* you give us real tools to fight fraud, like a way to even report it that gets looked at. We do so much to make sure webmasters and customers are legit, everything possible I think, that we deserve credit and backup. Without the support and input of VISA - and I will personally devote as much of my time as is necessary in a productive discussion with them to help - the whole online (not just adult) processing situation could have major problems. We're the experts about getting screwed and ways people can screw online merchants, our input is valuable, much more so than some consultant they might hire who is an AOL user. Pitting this as us versus VISA or MC is stupid, it benefits no one. Every innovation on the internet almost has originated in porn, why not this one? The future of all cc processing is online, adult or not, and we have the tools to help make it more secure and unlike offline merchants we bend over backwards to comply. Compared to brick and mortar merchants, for example, the number of places that violate VISA's basic rules over not having a minimum charge *offline* is staggering. Is it more secure for a minimum wage clerk to have my card number and toss it in the trash to be picked up by the garbageman? I don't think so. My 2c.

-doug

__________________
XYCash International Gay Affiliate Program

Big Monkie

Prequalified surfers for what? To sell something else? Dont you know the money is in recurring? Its stupid and shortsighted to get rid of your paying customers on "upsales" before they have stopped paying you. And dont you know that making a living off of link list traffic is past anyway?
And thats the past and present traffic you talk about. There aint going to be much link list traffic if sales arent made and kept. How you going to sell without being able to mention access to other sites? The question "why use an avs/site directory" should be asked about the surfer, why should they when they can get a fine site directory from the hun? Besides, how can you call it a site directory when you say we cant mention other sites? I assume you cant tell the surfer that its a directory he is buying because you arent allowed to talk about other sites?
Something aint right about all this.............