Business Thread: One reason sales are down that nobody ever discusses. Your Thoughts?

[Yanks_Todd]

Originally Posted by NETbilling

Excellent topic points Shap and its great to see you still around here even though you are not in the biz so much anymore. Mucho respect for the business you built, the decisions you made and the interest you still take in the state of the industry.

I love seeing some good business threads here on GFY.

Treating the customers well are points that I always preach in seminars that we speak on at shows. Customer interaction is important and when the customers get to see the human interaction behind these sites it makes for better member retention. That mixed with honest billing and great content are the 3 keys for success.

However, I don't agree with your point about handling your own customer service and not to outsource it. While it is important to have member interaction and provide 24/7 customer support, small-med sized programs don't have the staff of ability to effectively provide it alone. A mixture of using an outsourced company that handles billing support, cancellation and retention offers, order fulfillment questions and password help etc, and the program owners provided support, is a very viable solution, if you are working with a call center/support team that can provide custom support features.

Mitch

Spot on about the mix. We use Netbilling for our billing support but still have a robust Zen desk support desk setup to help with tech and other site issues.

[Tom_PM]

How many have mentioned ideas like in the OP and were told "you're too nice." ?

[Shap]

Originally Posted by NETbilling

Excellent topic points Shap and its great to see you still around here even though you are not in the biz so much anymore. Mucho respect for the business you built, the decisions you made and the interest you still take in the state of the industry.

I love seeing some good business threads here on GFY.

Treating the customers well are points that I always preach in seminars that we speak on at shows. Customer interaction is important and when the customers get to see the human interaction behind these sites it makes for better member retention. That mixed with honest billing and great content are the 3 keys for success.

However, I don't agree with your point about handling your own customer service and not to outsource it. While it is important to have member interaction and provide 24/7 customer support, small-med sized programs don't have the staff of ability to effectively provide it alone. A mixture of using an outsourced company that handles billing support, cancellation and retention offers, order fulfillment questions and password help etc, and the program owners provided support, is a very viable solution, if you are working with a call center/support team that can provide custom support features.

Mitch

Mitch Great To hear from you!

I should expand on what I wrote and clarify.

Customer support is one of the most important parts of any business. It is important that it is done RIGHT! Your first priority is to make sure it's done right and timely. If you can't make that happen yourself you have to outsource it.

If you do outsource it I believe it's very important that you have full access to the support tickets. It's important that you can take a look at common complaints, problems and issues. Having access to those tickets is a must. It's also important that your brand is being represented properly in the support tickets. You will be judged and remembered based on how those tickets are answered.

I also believe once a company gets to a certain size they should try to internalize the handling of customer support. It's not glamourous, it's not fun but it is vital. From personal experience us handling our own customer support has helped us trouble shoot problems on our site either with the members area or join process. Not only did it help but it sped up the process immensely. Our support staff would let us know that they've had repeated tickets about being unable to join or a video not working and we were able to jump on it right away instead of losing a lot of business had we not been told.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by Tom_PM

How many have mentioned ideas like in the OP and were told "you're too nice." ?

i've definitely had those

[Shap]

Originally Posted by David - PG

I don't think this type of short-sighted behavior is specific to adult. You'll find it in any industry, especially consumer goods and services.

exactly which is why this was brought up during a mainstream talk. A lot of mainstream guys are so used to the fast buck from banner advertising and mailing that they have had trouble adapting to how the web has changed.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Shap

Mitch Great To hear from you!

I should expand on what I wrote and clarify.

Customer support is one of the most important parts of any business. It is important that it is done RIGHT! Your first priority is to make sure it's done right and timely. If you can't make that happen yourself you have to outsource it.

If you do outsource it I believe it's very important that you have full access to the support tickets. It's important that you can take a look at common complaints, problems and issues. Having access to those tickets is a must. It's also important that your brand is being represented properly in the support tickets. You will be judged and remembered based on how those tickets are answered.

I also believe once a company gets to a certain size they should try to internalize the handling of customer support. It's not glamourous, it's not fun but it is vital. From personal experience us handling our own customer support has helped us trouble shoot problems on our site either with the members area or join process. Not only did it help but it sped up the process immensely. Our support staff would let us know that they've had repeated tickets about being unable to join or a video not working and we were able to jump on it right away instead of losing a lot of business had we not been told.

Customer Support is key but again, with adult, the "customers", while actual people, are also degenerate porn addicts. LOL So let's not confuse adult customers with 'mainstream' customers. Someone ordering a vacuum cleaner or hyperallergenic pillow is NOT the same as someone ordering a monthly membership to an interracial BBW midget cuckold creampie site.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Customer Support is key but again, with adult, the "customers", while actual people, are also degenerate porn addicts. LOL So let's not confuse adult customers with 'mainstream' customers. Someone ordering a vacuum cleaner or hyperallergenic pillow is NOT the same as someone ordering a monthly membership to an interracial BBW midget cuckold creampie site.

One thing I've learned about business in my life is that there are eternal truths that everyone pretends don't apply to them. Business is business. A product is a product. The customer is the customer. A service is a service. Management is management. Etc. etc etc. failing to understand this is a huge limiting factor to growth and kong term success.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Customer Support is key but again, with adult, the "customers", while actual people, are also degenerate porn addicts. LOL So let's not confuse adult customers with 'mainstream' customers. Someone ordering a vacuum cleaner or hyperallergenic pillow is NOT the same as someone ordering a monthly membership to an interracial BBW midget cuckold creampie site.

I strongly disagree with that.

If you truly believe that then there is no reason you shouldn't be banging the hell out of every single member for as much as you possibly can.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

One thing I've learned about business in my life is that there are eternal truths that everyone pretends don't apply to them. Business is business. A product is a product. The customer is the customer. A service is a service. Management is management. Etc. etc etc. failing to understand this is a huge limiting factor to growth and kong term success.

[TheSquealer]

Btw... Do you think ccbill has a customer service strategy for 10,000 different types of sites, niches, products and so on.... Or one?

And adult customers ARE mainstream customers. They buy bread. They buy clothes. They buy music. They buy cars etc.

This false distinction has been made since 1996 in this business online "surfers are stupid" was all anyone ever said, that sentiment is still echoed in your reply. They are not your cherished customer... They are degenerates which need to be treated as such.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Btw... Do you think ccbill has a customer service strategy for 10,000 different types of sites, niches, products and so on.... Or one?

And adult customers ARE mainstream customers. They buy bread. They buy clothes. They buy music. They buy cars etc.

This false distinction has been made since 1996 in this business online "surfers are stupid" was all anyone ever said, that sentiment is still echoed in your reply. They are not your cherished customer... They are degenerates which need to be treated as such.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by Shap

I owned a gym and gave both my partner and main sales guy a great deal of autonomy in sales because they were extremely good. They loved to remind me that I didn't have their experience in the fitness industry from the sales side to justify everything and keep me at bay.

One day a guy walked in trying to sell something (I think ad space somewhere).

He was speaking to my partner with both of us present and he used every single sales device they did. Once he left, they were laughing at what a transparent douche he was, how he was using the same tired lines and sales tricks they used etc.

I just quietly looked up and said "every single person you sell to looks at you the exact same way. They've heard your lines a 1000 times already from a 1000 different salesmen selling 1000 different products. Your problem is you, and the fact that you convinced yourself that you are different, the customer is different, the product is different and the same old tired sales pitch you use is somehow unique.... because really, your tunnel vision is so bad, it's all you know"

[Shap]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I owned a gym and gave both my partner and main sales guy a great deal of autonomy in sales because they were extremely good. They loved to remind me that I didn't have their experience in the fitness industry from the sales side to justify everything and keep me at bay.

One day a guy walked in trying to sell something (I think ad space somewhere).

He was speaking to my partner with both of us present and he used every single sales device they did. Once he left, they were laughing at what a transparent douche he was, how he was using the same tired lines and sales tricks they used etc.

I just quietly looked up and said "every single person you sell to looks at you the exact same way. They've heard your lines a 1000 times already from a 1000 different salesmen selling 1000 different products. Your problem is you, and the fact that you convinced yourself that you are different, the customer is different, the product is different and the same old tired sales pitch you use is somehow unique.... because really, your tunnel vision is so bad, it's all you know"

Dead on! I don't think most people don't see that though.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Btw... Do you think ccbill has a customer service strategy for 10,000 different types of sites, niches, products and so on.... Or one?

And adult customers ARE mainstream customers. They buy bread. They buy clothes. They buy music. They buy cars etc.

This false distinction has been made since 1996 in this business online "surfers are stupid" was all anyone ever said, that sentiment is still echoed in your reply. They are not your cherished customer... They are degenerates which need to be treated as such.

Both you and Shap are misunderstanding my comments here. I do NOT think "surfers are stupid" or that Customer Support is unnecassary. And no Shap, my comments do NOT imply that I would then be a 'card banger' and try to exploit my Members. Fuck you Shap. Let's not swing the pendulum the other way here.

No, my point is that an adult customer's "needs" are VASTLY differant than someone buying a smoke alarm for their Grandmother. LOL Many, many adult customers do NOT want to be 'bothered' or even catered to. They want to grab their porn, whack it, and exit, sometimes as anonmyously as possible. How often should you email your current Members? How many opt out if you send them too many emails?

No, adult customers ARE "people" but they are differant kinds of customers. Their main concerns *usually) are:

My password doesn't work (easy fix)
I cannot figure out how to download the content on a Mac or a device (again, easy fix)
I do not like the content (sorry, see ya)
I want MORE content (so here's a bunch of links for you to check out other Programs....)
The videos won't stream on my device or laptop
How do I contact this model?
When is the next update?

So what else would you be catering to? Let's not pretend an adult customer needs a lot of hand-holding here. Technical issues aside, what do Members want or expect?

They expect to get the content they paid for and they expect to have a good 'user experience'. Do they expect a chat feature? Do they expect forums and social networking? Perhaps but it also greatly depends on what KIND of adult website you are promoting. Some niches rely heavily on Member interaction while others do not.

But again, and finally, catering to your Members via good Customer Support is important but is not THE KEY TO SUCCESS. It is a factor but how much time you spend on it really depends, I think, on the feedback you get from your own members.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

No, my point is that an adult customer's "needs" are VASTLY differant than someone buying a smoke alarm for their Grandmother.

I think you are misunderstanding. Customers are customers. The questions and concerns may certainly differ from product to product, service to service etc but that has absolutely nothing to do with treating customer service as a very important aspect of success. What concerns or questions exist, has zero to do with the processes and procedures you implement to properly deal with customer service. THAT is what does not change across any industry, product or service

and finally, catering to your Members via good Customer Support is important but is not THE KEY TO SUCCESS. It is a factor but how much time you spend on it really depends, I think, on the feedback you get from your own members.

This again is exactly what separate those who strive for and create excellence and those who can only reach mediocrity.

"The key to success"

Every factor is either a key to success or failure. Every factor needs to be fully addressed and managed well. Those who continually strive for excellence treat every factor involved in their success such as customer relationships as life and death. Those who don't, never achieve anything truly great, are never modeled or copied and never remembered for what they built or did and are quickly forgotten.

Who and what do you think will be remembered in the end? You and any one of your sites? Or Shap and just one of his sites? That's something to think about.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I think you are misunderstanding. Customers are customers. The questions and concerns may certainly differ from product to product, service to service etc but that has absolutely nothing to do with treating customer service as a very important aspect of success. What concerns or questions exist, has zero to do with the processes and procedures you implement to properly deal with customer service. THAT is what does not change across any industry, product or service





This again is exactly what separate those who strive for and create excellence and those who can only reach mediocrity.

"The key to success"

Every factor is either a key to success or failure. Every factor needs to be fully addressed and managed well. Those who continually strive for excellence treat every factor involved in their success such as customer relationships as life and death. Those who don't, never achieve anything truly great, are never modeled or copied and never remembered for what they built or did and are quickly forgotten.

Who do you think will be remembered in the end? Any one of our sites? Or one of Shaps? That's something to think about.

Well, to answer the last part first, Shap's will be remembered more than my little operation that's for sure. But that also has MUCH to do with scale. A better question might be:

If Shap and I started at the same exact time, with the same resources (little to none), who would be a bigger success and which company would last longer? I started in 2009 and Shap started ten years earlier. Another question might be: could Shap be as successful as ME if HE started with zero in 2009?

And sorry, it is you who are are not understanding ME (or my responses). I actually agree with you and Shap that Customer Support is important (and nowhere in any of my comments have I contradicted this). In fact, I myself answer every single Member email (not a 3rd party). I am also the one who does ALL communicating with Members (ICQ, emails, newsletters, etc). So I know what Customer Support is and I always (always) go out of my way to help my Members, even extending Memberships as a standard response to any complaint.

My comments are more geared towards company resource allocation. And perhaps I am merging 'Member Area interactivity/updating' with the overall general topic of Customer Support, to whcih I apologize for mixing apples and oranges. Although, in the end, it's all one big fruit basket. LOL

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Well, to answer the last part first, Shap's will be remembered more than my little operation that's for sure. But that also has MUCH to do with scale. A better question might be:

If Shap and I started at the same exact time, with the same resources (little to none), who would be a bigger success and which company would last longer? I started in 2009 and Shap started ten years earlier. Another question might be: could Shap be as successful as ME if HE started with zero in 2009?

Of course the answer to that would be only speculation... but my money would always go towards the guy who

1) is most passionate about what he is doing, his business, his product and the users experience
2) who looks at every little detail and strives to make it perfect

My comments are more geared towards company resource allocation. And perhaps I am merging 'Member Area interactivity/updating' with the overall general topic of Customer Support, to which I apologize for mixing apples and oranges.

No worries man, its just a forum.

To clarify, this is exactly how I see things and how many who do things well, unintentionally approach their business.

My absurdly linear brain needs to see steps, flow, processes and so on. I identify say all the steps in the customer experience and map them out on paper. From the first link he clicked or first watermark he typed in to his 3rd month as a member, upsells and so on. Then i break each one down into all the factors which contribute to, positively or negatively each step.

But basically the math looks like this to calculate the compounding returns on improvements in a sequence:
= [(1)*(1+F1%)*(1+F2%)*(1+F3%)*(1+F4%)] – 1
where F represents an identified factor in the sequence and the % it is improved.

An rough/quick example would be how the user finds the site, what he see's on the index page, what he sees on the tour pages, what he see's on the join page, how many submit, how many are successful, what they see in the members area, how long they stay in the members area, how frequently they return, how much content they viewed, how many rebilled etc etc etc etc.

If there are 10 steps that you identify as major factors in the user experience that determines the value per visit or whatever metric you use, it looks like this
= [(1)*(1+F1%)*(1+F2%)*(1+F3%)*(1+F4%)*(1+F5%)*(1+F6% )*(1+F7%)*(1+F8%)*(1+F9%)*(1+F10%)] – 1

IF you improve each step by an average of 10%, by the time you get to the end result, there is an 185% overall improvement in the outcome.

Then, you apply that 185% back to step 1... traffic generation and again multiply the benefits exponentially.

This is why is say "step 6: managing customer service and managing customer relationships well" is just as important as any other. Even more important is doing these things well over time when you don't really see the immediate and obvious benefit to it... its not about that. Its about that one factor in a sequence that directly impacts every other.

This is why i also say that those who strive for excellence in everything have a HUGE advantage over those who don't. They are automatically trying to tackle every factor and make it perfect because its in their nature, because they can't accept mediocrity anywhere, not because they understand the mathematical advantages of doing so. Most importantly, because its in their nature and a part of who they are, they will also do it with fanatical consistency, where others will not. The benefits to that behavior are massive.

So my bet would go to Shap on the "who would do better over time, had you started at the same time". Building enduring success isn't really about statistics and numbers and traffic and cross sales, cheating or not, right time or wrong time,.... its about the personality traits of those competing.

[Why]

Originally Posted by Yanks_Todd

I think what also gets lost in most retention metrics is returning customers being tracked in regards to their overall CLV (customer life-time value)

NATS, Mansion, and others did your ears perk up? They should have.

$ per subscription is a great metric. However a better one would be true CLV. I have had many customers join off and on over the course of a decade. The value of each subscription may be $85-$95 per go, however when you track that user joining three separate times it goes up significantly.

In short this is where the increased customer service and interactivity shows up.

Retention rates of 2-3 and 3-4 quickly get to 1 year+ when it is tracked that way

interesting topic, i do see your point in the CLV metric. however you are unique in that you have a unique and exclusive product. i think people with cookie cutter sites are more looking to track the overall value based on how many crosses they can bang out. in their case the CLV is null as no one with a brain would ever re-join. i think few in adult are tracking things are well as through should over the entire customer lifetime, those that are and have a unique product could probably mine very valuable data.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Of course the answer to that would be only speculation... but my money would always go towards the guy who

1) is most passionate about what he is doing, his business, his product and the users experience
2) who looks at every little detail and strives to make it perfect




No worries man, its just a forum.

To clarify, this is exactly how I see things and how many who do things well, unintentionally approach their business.

My absurdly linear brain needs to see steps, flow, processes and so on. I identify say all the steps in the customer experience and map them out on paper. From the first link he clicked or first watermark he typed in to his 3rd month as a member, upsells and so on. Then i break each one down into all the factors which contribute to, positively or negatively each step.

But basically the math looks like this to calculate the compounding returns on improvements in a sequence:
= [(1)*(1+F1%)*(1+F2%)*(1+F3%)*(1+F4%)] – 1
where F represents an identified factor in the sequence and the % it is improved.

An rough/quick example would be how the user finds the site, what he see's on the index page, what he sees on the tour pages, what he see's on the join page, how many submit, how many are successful, what they see in the members area, how long they stay in the members area, how frequently they return, how much content they viewed, how many rebilled etc etc etc etc.

If there are 10 steps that you identify as major factors in the user experience that determines the value per visit or whatever metric you use, it looks like this
= [(1)*(1+F1%)*(1+F2%)*(1+F3%)*(1+F4%)*(1+F5%)*(1+F6% )*(1+F7%)*(1+F8%)*(1+F9%)*(1+F10%)] – 1

IF you improve each step by an average of 10%, by the time you get to the end result, there is an 185% overall improvement in the outcome.

Then, you apply that 185% back to step 1... traffic generation and again multiply the benefits exponentially.

This is why is say "step 6: managing customer service and managing customer relationships well" is just as important as any other. Even more important is doing these things well over time when you don't really see the immediate and obvious benefit to it... its not about that. Its about that one factor in a sequence that directly impacts every other.

This is why i also say that those who strive for excellence in everything have a HUGE advantage over those who don't. They are automatically trying to tackle ever factor and make it perfect because its in their nature, because they can't accept mediocrity anywhere, not because they understand the mathematical advantages of doing so. Most importantly, because its in their nature and a part of who they are, they will also do it with fanatical consistency, where others will not.

So my bet would go to Shap on the "who would do better over time, had you started at the same time". Building enduring success isn't really about statistics and numbers and traffic and cross sales, cheating or not, right time or wrong time,.... its about the personality traits of those competing.

Well again, I will address the ending first. Please do not judge my "personality type" based on comments posted here on GFY. Perhaps you have met Shap and have more information than I do but if we are comparing who cares more, who works harder, who understands things more, I would place myself right next to ANY human being, including Shap.

Now, having said all that, we must also look at intent and timing. For it was never my intention to build a single site or "brand" like Twisty's. Nor do I (generally) shoot my own content. Timing IS a huge factor when we're discussing Adult. Shap started when you could begin with zero and, through sweat equity, earn millions in a relatively short time. We're talking the "Golden Age" of adult, pre-Tubes, circa 1999-2005. Now fast forward to January 2009. Post-Tubes, post-Manwin, post-credit card changes, post-nearly everything that constituted online Adult's "Golden Age". In 1999 you could start with $1000 and make millions; in 2009 you could start with $1000 and make.....how much? Millions? Doubtful.

Now while the Adult Industry continues to trend downward my little company continues to trend upward. Twisty's rose on a rising tide of online Adult's Golden Age, where a moron could put up a nude picture and earn thousands a week (not saying Shap is a moron LOL). How many others do you know of who started with zero money (and zero knowledge/skills) just five years ago and have what I have today? There IS a huge differance.

Sorry, but I would bet on myself over Shap or any other human being, you included, under the circumstances. Why? Because 99.9% of people would've given up by now if they started like I started, with nothing.

I do love your mathematical breakdown of user experience steps. Math is not my strong point but I can easily focus on the Steps, and this is what I do in my own way. Just the other day a Member complained about a photo gallery not loading correctly and I dropped everything to fix it. Turns out we lost some content when switching servers so I had to re-upload the entire site's galleries, which took hours. LOL Ah well, things MUST be "perfect". Well, as perfect as can be reasonaly expected then one must move on.

When you see my new HD mini-network and affiliate program called Eleganxia (coming end of January) you will see how I've evolved and on what level I'm playing now.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Well again, I will address the ending first. Please do not judge my "personality type" based on comments posted here on GFY. Perhaps you have met Shap and have more information than I do but if we are comparing who cares more, who works harder, who understands things more, I would place myself right next to ANY human being, including Shap.

Again, this is subjective and speculative for me or you or anyone to say. More a thought experiment and opinion. I for example, would not bet on myself because I know from doing it in the past, that I would not find that passion for the product that others do. I prefer PPC and data and being able to make huge amounts from my note book while depending on no one. Not that it says anything good about me, i've just found I thrive better that way and made the decision to stop everything else and chase it 100%.

When you see my new HD mini-network and affiliate program called Eleganxia (coming end of January) you will see how I've evolved and on what level I'm playing now.

I have no doubt that you will do well. This is not an attack but more an example of how a third party like myself sees people from the outside looking in when trying to evaluate two people.

Who would be predicted to succeed over the next 20 years? Bill Gates who seems to be more about sales numbers than the product or a Steve Jobs that understands not only what people want, but what they will want and has a vision of how to really impact peoples lives with the products he creates and how those products will become an extension of the customers themselves and where the products are more than devices, that they are status and social currency... and who has a deep passion for every aspect of the product and customer experience and how that product fits into and impacts everyone's lives.

Though you may disagree, i see this as a similar comparison... at least from my uninformed perspective. Numbers vs passion.

I have never been a fan of Apple (though Microsoft is forcing me in that direct with Windows 8 and turning my computer into a shitty smart phone).... but I would bet my money on Jobs (had he not committed suicide) over Gates.

Both however, could easily make an argument for how awesome they are and how awesome the future will be. Gates speaking sounds like he has a better grasp on the future of technology than anyone... but running Microsoft as a business and making its products an irreplaceable part of that future is a different problem and where they are and have been failing.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

Again, this is subjective and speculative for me or you or anyone to say. More a thought experiment and opinion. I for example, would not bet on myself because I know from doing it in the past, that I would not find that passion for the product that others do. I prefer PPC and data and being able to make huge amounts from my note book while depending on no one. Not that it says anything good about me, i've just found I thrive better that way and made the decision to stop everything else and chase it 100%.




I have no doubt that you will do well. This is not an attack but more an example of how a third party like myself sees people from the outside looking in when trying to evaluate two people.

Who would be predicted to succeed over the next 20 years? Bill Gates who seems to be more about sales numbers than the product or a Steve Jobs that understands not only what people want, but what they will want and has a vision of how to really impact peoples lives with the products he creates and how those products will become an extension of the customers themselves and where the products are more than devices, that they are status and social currency... and who has a deep passion for every aspect of the product and customer experience and how that product fits into and impacts everyone's lives.

I have never been a fan of Apple (though Microsoft is forcing me in that direct with Windows 8 and turning my computer into a shitty smart phone).... but I would bet my money on Jobs (had he not committed suicide) over Gates. Both could easily make an argument for how awesome they are and how awesome the future will be. Gates speaking sounds like he has a better grasp on the future of technology than anyone... but running Microsoft as a business and making its products an irreplaceable part of that future is a different problem and where they are and have been failing.

I would also bet on Jobs. So perhaps I should be flattered, having someone comparing Shap's personality and skill set to my own. LOL

Any comparisions with Shap or any other owner of a site larger than mine is not valid, given the scale, scope and footprints involved. In other words, IF Shap and I ran similar companies (like Microsoft and Apple) a comparison might have value. But given the factors I mentioned before (timing, resources, intent etc) all this really is just a 'thought experiment'. LOL

That's actually what's so frustrating (for me) about GFY and any "Adult Industry" gatherings or seminars. My little operation is so completely differant from anyone else's I know of that it takes a lot of mining to find the advice gold. Some basic business principles apply, of course, and are always welcomed. But when someone says "Try this or that" or "This works for me..." what do they really mean and how does that apply to my situation? I run paysites, not Blogs or cams or dating. I'm not an affiliate per se so.....see what I mean? Even if you run a paysite (or a Network of them, like me) chances are high that your content and audience are very, very differant than what I have to offer. So Shap's advice in this thread may be 100% appropriate and perfect for a company larger than mine. After all, I think we all agree Customer Support IS highly important. We just have differant ideas on HOW important it is and how much of a company's resources should be directed towards it.

[TheSquealer]

*I've noticed i'm full of opinions today

I don't think you need advice. When you are starting out, advice is to help in filling in the gaps in knowledge and lack of experience. You have been running your networks for a while now. You are hands on. You know what you are doing. All you need is data and let that data lead you where it leads. I think the only thing that really matters is in measuring everything well and understanding what comes back.

Paul Markham can talk for 100 years about a great photograph and still has no clue what potential customers are looking for, what they want to pay for, what they won't pay for, why, how to sell that product or how to keep them active members for 1 year. I think most peoples advice is like that. All a reflection of their narrow experience and biases and given within the context of that experience and rarely applicable to your own.

At some point, you become the expert you turn to. You should be the expert in your business, in your business model, in your goals and objectives and how each little part of your own business works with each other little part. No one else should be able to tell you much about how to improve your business as they are either incapable of seeing or ignorant of the whole. You have all your plans, your goals, your ambitions and you have 1000 tiny little moving pieces to a massive puzzle you are building. No one see's it all and how the pieces do or should fit together, better than you.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

*I've noticed i'm full of opinions today

I don't think you need advice. When you are starting out, advice is to help in filling in the gaps in knowledge and lack of experience. You have been running your networks for a while now. You are hands on. You know what you are doing. All you need is data and let that data lead you where it leads. I think the only thing that really matters is in measuring everything well and understanding what comes back.

Paul Markham can talk for 100 years about a great photograph and still has no clue what potential customers are looking for, what they want to pay for, what they won't pay for, why, how to sell that product or how to keep them active members for 1 year. I think most peoples advice is like that. All a reflection of their narrow experience and biases and given within the context of that experience and rarely applicable to your own.

At some point, you become the expert you turn to. You should be the expert in your business, in your business model, in your goals and objectives and how each little part of your own business works with each other little part. No one else should be able to tell you much about how to improve your business as they are either incapable of seeing or ignorant of the whole. You have all your plans, your goals, your ambitions and you have 1000 tiny little moving pieces to a massive puzzle you are building. No one see's it all and how the pieces do or should fit together, better than you.

This is all very true (and well said) and it works both ways. When people ask me what they shold do in Adult, where they should allocate their time and resources, it's almost like I need to ask THEM a series of questions just to get a grasp on what, exactly, they want to do.

Having said that I love it when people narrow their focus and discuss how they run their businesses. It's often during those times (or rants) that you can pick up little details on what might work for you. Like with your math outline of improving the user experience in steps. I've taken away some good knowledge there so Thank You.

At the end of the day you have to A-B test everything anyway so advice or suggestions given will eventually be proven in the real world. What works stays, what doesn't goes.

[fuzebox]

TheSquealer is the most active I've ever seen on GFY...

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by fuzebox

TheSquealer is the most active I've ever seen on GFY...

I guess I found an actual conversation a nice distraction from conspiracy theories and every worthless asshole around begging their friends and spamming their affiliates to vote for them for an award that is not only a meaningless, feel good hand job but that they don't deserve and did nothing to earn.

An award btw where the guy who's site crashes several times a day, is down 1 hr a day for "maintenance" and where pages take forever to load and are more likely to crash than open, when you try to manage campaigns ... And where these problems have been the most consistent and prominent features of his site for years, can still win "businessman of the year" and then not miss a chance to use it to tell everyone how awesome he is, including writing and putting out press releases he wrote about himself In the third person, like a psychotic 3rd world dictator, rallying the masses for a future genocide.

This is a business full of worthless assholes who are either too dumb to find success, too headstrong and arrogant, too undisciplined, or just too lazy and full of excuses and where liars and thieves blow right past them as they lay on their couch playing call of duty while blaming tubes for everything, including their houseplants dying and their mom yelling at them to take out the trash

I guess it's just refreshing to hear from one of the very few rock solid businessmen who created a quality product known by all, who wants to talk about biz and share.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Both you and Shap are misunderstanding my comments here. I do NOT think "surfers are stupid" or that Customer Support is unnecassary. And no Shap, my comments do NOT imply that I would then be a 'card banger' and try to exploit my Members. Fuck you Shap. Let's not swing the pendulum the other way here.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight. Your attitude in the previous post seemed to look very negatively at your customers. My reply was that if you think that lowly of them then you probably should be extremely aggressive and milk them for every single penny you possibly can.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I think you are misunderstanding. Customers are customers. The questions and concerns may certainly differ from product to product, service to service etc but that has absolutely nothing to do with treating customer service as a very important aspect of success. What concerns or questions exist, has zero to do with the processes and procedures you implement to properly deal with customer service. THAT is what does not change across any industry, product or service





This again is exactly what separate those who strive for and create excellence and those who can only reach mediocrity.

"The key to success"

Every factor is either a key to success or failure. Every factor needs to be fully addressed and managed well. Those who continually strive for excellence treat every factor involved in their success such as customer relationships as life and death. Those who don't, never achieve anything truly great, are never modeled or copied and never remembered for what they built or did and are quickly forgotten.

Interesting. Never thought about it like that but you are dead on

[Shap]

Originally Posted by Why

interesting topic, i do see your point in the CLV metric. however you are unique in that you have a unique and exclusive product. i think people with cookie cutter sites are more looking to track the overall value based on how many crosses they can bang out. in their case the CLV is null as no one with a brain would ever re-join. i think few in adult are tracking things are well as through should over the entire customer lifetime, those that are and have a unique product could probably mine very valuable data.

Good point. We had many customers try us and then cancel only to rejoin with one of our very cost effective long term rates. Usually yearly.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Well again, I will address the ending first. Please do not judge my "personality type" based on comments posted here on GFY. Perhaps you have met Shap and have more information than I do but if we are comparing who cares more, who works harder, who understands things more, I would place myself right next to ANY human being, including Shap.

Now, having said all that, we must also look at intent and timing. For it was never my intention to build a single site or "brand" like Twisty's. Nor do I (generally) shoot my own content. Timing IS a huge factor when we're discussing Adult. Shap started when you could begin with zero and, through sweat equity, earn millions in a relatively short time. We're talking the "Golden Age" of adult, pre-Tubes, circa 1999-2005. Now fast forward to January 2009. Post-Tubes, post-Manwin, post-credit card changes, post-nearly everything that constituted online Adult's "Golden Age". In 1999 you could start with $1000 and make millions; in 2009 you could start with $1000 and make.....how much? Millions? Doubtful.

Now while the Adult Industry continues to trend downward my little company continues to trend upward. Twisty's rose on a rising tide of online Adult's Golden Age, where a moron could put up a nude picture and earn thousands a week (not saying Shap is a moron LOL). How many others do you know of who started with zero money (and zero knowledge/skills) just five years ago and have what I have today? There IS a huge differance.

Sorry, but I would bet on myself over Shap or any other human being, you included, under the circumstances. Why? Because 99.9% of people would've given up by now if they started like I started, with nothing.

I do love your mathematical breakdown of user experience steps. Math is not my strong point but I can easily focus on the Steps, and this is what I do in my own way. Just the other day a Member complained about a photo gallery not loading correctly and I dropped everything to fix it. Turns out we lost some content when switching servers so I had to re-upload the entire site's galleries, which took hours. LOL Ah well, things MUST be "perfect". Well, as perfect as can be reasonaly expected then one must move on.

When you see my new HD mini-network and affiliate program called Eleganxia (coming end of January) you will see how I've evolved and on what level I'm playing now.

I respect your confidence in yourself and respect the success you've had since you started. You are obviously one hard working mother fucker

[Shap]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

That's actually what's so frustrating (for me) about GFY and any "Adult Industry" gatherings or seminars. My little operation is so completely differant from anyone else's I know of that it takes a lot of mining to find the advice gold. Some basic business principles apply, of course, and are always welcomed. But when someone says "Try this or that" or "This works for me..." what do they really mean and how does that apply to my situation? I run paysites, not Blogs or cams or dating. I'm not an affiliate per se so.....see what I mean? Even if you run a paysite (or a Network of them, like me) chances are high that your content and audience are very, very differant than what I have to offer. So Shap's advice in this thread may be 100% appropriate and perfect for a company larger than mine. After all, I think we all agree Customer Support IS highly important. We just have differant ideas on HOW important it is and how much of a company's resources should be directed towards it.

I have to disagree with you here. I know how you feel because I've been there. I started with nothing. I was a one man show that prided himself as being the hardest working go online. You could out program me, you could out spend me but you could never out work me. That said I was a little stubborn (anybody who worked for me would say VERY stubborn) and I usually let my overwhelming workload cloud my view on what advice applied to me and what didn't. Looking back it was a mistake. Twistys was very different from Bang Bros but there was a lot I could learn from them. A good example was the way they monetized their members area. Despite us both having very different content using very similar monetization techniques (and sponsors) yielded great results for both of us.

I thought I knew it all and often shot down ideas and things that turned out to be VERY lucrative for me. I wish I had done them 4 or 5 years earlier. Would have made a world of difference and it goes back to my original post. If you let a new medium of getting business pass you by and wait you'll jump on once it's in a decline. IE anyone who starts mailing ex-members in 2014. It's still great money but the money won't compare what it would have been 3 years ago. (PS anybody looking for an ex-member mailing solution hit up Joel for gamme )

[Shap]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

All you need is data and let that data lead you where it leads.

At some point, you become the expert you turn to. You should be the expert in your business, in your business model, in your goals and objectives and how each little part of your own business works with each other little part. No one else should be able to tell you much about how to improve your business as they are either incapable of seeing or ignorant of the whole. You have all your plans, your goals, your ambitions and you have 1000 tiny little moving pieces to a massive puzzle you are building. No one see's it all and how the pieces do or should fit together, better than you.

Agreed! And you should judge your success based on your goals and how well you've achieved them. Not on the ramblings of anyone on here ;)

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Shap

I have to disagree with you here. I know how you feel because I've been there. I started with nothing. I was a one man show that prided himself as being the hardest working go online. You could out program me, you could out spend me but you could never out work me. That said I was a little stubborn (anybody who worked for me would say VERY stubborn) and I usually let my overwhelming workload cloud my view on what advice applied to me and what didn't. Looking back it was a mistake. Twistys was very different from Bang Bros but there was a lot I could learn from them. A good example was the way they monetized their members area. Despite us both having very different content using very similar monetization techniques (and sponsors) yielded great results for both of us.

I thought I knew it all and often shot down ideas and things that turned out to be VERY lucrative for me. I wish I had done them 4 or 5 years earlier. Would have made a world of difference and it goes back to my original post. If you let a new medium of getting business pass you by and wait you'll jump on once it's in a decline. IE anyone who starts mailing ex-members in 2014. It's still great money but the money won't compare what it would have been 3 years ago. (PS anybody looking for an ex-member mailing solution hit up Joel for gamme )

No worries Shap. I see 'card banging' and I see red. LOL But I see what you mean now.

I've learned a LOT from you Shap, and others who have worked for you, so I can appreciate modeling other people's techniques (and hopefully success). What "cured" me of total stubbornness (a little) was when I spent 3 months designing my best site, sweating over every detail. It brought in great sales but then one day I saw an ad for a paysite on PornHub. I clicked the ad and saw the design and decided to become "inspired" and tried it for that new site that was doing great sales.

Sales jumped 30%! Know what I did? I threw out the design I had worked on for 3 months. LOL So I became flexible, and I A-B test everything now, so all these things have helped broaden my perspectives.

Shap, what are you doing with all your money and success? What are you doing with your time, your business mind? Have you found anything interesting to invest in?

[shauna1978]

I agree with everything except number 2. With the invention of social media, customer satisfaction has become more important than ever. Because bad reviews can now spread so quickly, failing to provide customers with good support can destroy a business pretty fast. More companies than ever are putting a major focus on customer satisfaction, and as a result, customers have come to expect a higher level of care, and attention from the businesses that they choose to deal with. With that being said, why wouldn't you want to leave your customer support in the hands of someone who specializes in it? The key is finding a good contact centre who care about the needs of yourself, your business and your customers. But, as with everything else, you get what you pay for. If you're going to turn your customer support over to an offshore company because it's less expensive, you're not going to get the level of service that you want, and your customers will not be happy. You need to use a North American company, with well paid, well trained, and well treated employees, and your investment will pay itself back in dividends.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Shap, what are you doing with all your money and success? What are you doing with your time, your business mind? Have you found anything interesting to invest in?

Haven't done too much business wise. I've been watching the start up market closely and have invested in a few start ups. But haven't really done much. Will definitely crank it up in 2014 and get a few things going. Whether it be starting something of my own or joining a company or two and help them out with consulting of some sort.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Shap

Haven't done too much business wise. I've been watching the start up market closely and have invested in a few start ups. But haven't really done much. Will definitely crank it up in 2014 and get a few things going. Whether it be starting something of my own or joining a company or two and help them out with consulting of some sort.

Shit, join MY company and consult your ass off. LOL!

(Who am I kidding? I can't afford Shap!)

[Shap]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Shit, join MY company and consult your ass off. LOL!

(Who am I kidding? I can't afford Shap!)

[David - PG]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Customer Support is key but again, with adult, the "customers", while actual people, are also degenerate porn addicts. LOL So let's not confuse adult customers with 'mainstream' customers. Someone ordering a vacuum cleaner or hyperallergenic pillow is NOT the same as someone ordering a monthly membership to an interracial BBW midget cuckold creampie site.

A porn customer can be as good (or annoying) a customer as someone who bought a vacuum cleaner. I fail to see a good reason to differentiate between the two reject the idea of labeling all porn customers as degenerate porn addicts. That's like labeling all chocolate buyers as overweight chocoholics or all alcohol buyers as degenerate alcoholics. At the end of the day the key is to make them pass over money for product and have them come back for more.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by David - PG

A porn customer can be as good (or annoying) a customer as someone who bought a vacuum cleaner. I fail to see a good reason to differentiate between the two reject the idea of labeling all porn customers as degenerate porn addicts. That's like labeling all chocolate buyers as overweight chocoholics or all alcohol buyers as degenerate alcoholics. At the end of the day the key is to make them pass over money for product and have them come back for more.

Agreed!

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by David - PG

A porn customer can be as good (or annoying) a customer as someone who bought a vacuum cleaner. I fail to see a good reason to differentiate between the two reject the idea of labeling all porn customers as degenerate porn addicts. That's like labeling all chocolate buyers as overweight chocoholics or all alcohol buyers as degenerate alcoholics.

Exactly right. If you do not respect your customer, no matter the business, than you expect them to respect you and not steal your content, chargeback on you, etc.? Nigga please.

That being said, I do find it humorous that some look down on their customers so much as filthy porn perverts, yet expect them to buy these same people to buy from them, and rebill. It's almost like an oxymoron. I can't think of another business I've ever worked in where those who keep you in business are so loathed and talked about in such a way.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Exactly right. If you do not respect your customer, no matter the business, than you expect them to respect you and not steal your content, chargeback on you, etc.? Nigga please.

That being said, I do find it humorous that some look down on their customers so much as filthy porn perverts, yet expect them to buy these same people to buy from them, and rebill. It's almost like an oxymoron. I can't think of another business I've ever worked in where those who keep you in business are so loathed and talked about in such a way.

Most vice industries I guess. Drug dealers, gambling etc. Probably any industry that causes the business owner to question their ethics. They like to justify what they do by attacking the customer.

[DamianJ]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Customer Support is key but again, with adult, the "customers", while actual people, are also degenerate porn addicts. LOL So let's not confuse adult customers with 'mainstream' customers. Someone ordering a vacuum cleaner or hyperallergenic pillow is NOT the same as someone ordering a monthly membership to an interracial BBW midget cuckold creampie site.

It's exactly the same.

Except fewer people trust a porn site with a credit card, so those people should be treated with extra special care and attention to keep them happy.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by DamianJ

It's exactly the same.

Except fewer people trust a porn site with a credit card, so those people should be treated with extra special care and attention to keep them happy.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Shap

Most vice industries I guess. Drug dealers, gambling etc. Probably any industry that causes the business owner to question their ethics. They like to justify what they do by attacking the customer.

If being in this business causes one to question their ethics, they probably do not belong in it.

[The Porn Nerd]

Let's all hold hands and sing.
I do not treat everyone the same or every single person with the same level of respect.

Degenerate porn surfers, gamblers, drug addicts - c'mon people, we are selling to the dregs of soceity. Get your head's out of your asses (unless you make money by putting your head in someone's ass).

Treating customers with 'respect' and giving them good customer support is not the same thing as knowing who your customers are: a bunch of fucking degenerates. They are not mutually exclusive.

Having said all that, I agree from a business perspective that you treat your customers with respect. I just wouldn't want to hang out with any of them, that's all I'm saying. LOL

[DamianJ]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Degenerate porn surfers, gamblers, drug addicts - c'mon people, we are selling to the dregs of soceity. Get your head's out of your asses (unless you make money by putting your head in someone's ass).

Treating customers with 'respect' and giving them good customer support is not the same thing as knowing who your customers are: a bunch of fucking degenerates. They are not mutually exclusive.

Wowzers.

If you believe people that pay for videos of people fucking are "degenerates" and like drug addicts, how do you view your own role in the chain?

Surely the person providing their needs is worse than they are. People often feel sorry for drug addicts, but never for their dealers, who are all, clearly, cunts.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by DamianJ

Wowzers.

If you believe people that pay for videos of people fucking are "degenerates" and like drug addicts, how do you view your own role in the chain?

Surely the person providing their needs is worse than they are. People often feel sorry for drug addicts, but never for their dealers, who are all, clearly, cunts.

Oh I admit I'm a degenerate pornographer. LOL I just love tweaking people here, who get all 'high and mighty' and try to convince people that selling porn is like selling cars or insurance. On one level it is, sure, but on others it's ridiculous. People have their heads so far up their own asses sometimes it's hilarious to me.

Gambling, drugs, prostitution, porn - why is organized crime so heavily involved in these things? I know there's a differance between legit casinos, legal prostitution, etc but let's not pretend we're selling light bulbs to grandmothers here people. It's PORN. Dirty, nasty, disgusting PORN.

And I love it.

[David - PG]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

who get all 'high and mighty' and try to convince people that selling porn is like selling cars or insurance.

There's nothing high and mighty about it. It's an industry not ethically worse or better than most others. And it's ironic you chose used cars and insurance, two of the 'dirtiest' industries known to mankind.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by David - PG

There's nothing high and mighty about it. It's an industry not ethically worse or better than most others. And it's ironic you chose used cars and insurance, two of the 'dirtiest' industries known to mankind.

Name a billion dollar Industry that's not dirty and full of degenerates. LOL

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Let's all hold hands and sing.
I do not treat everyone the same or every single person with the same level of respect.

Degenerate porn surfers, gamblers, drug addicts - c'mon people, we are selling to the dregs of soceity. Get your head's out of your asses (unless you make money by putting your head in someone's ass).

Treating customers with 'respect' and giving them good customer support is not the same thing as knowing who your customers are: a bunch of fucking degenerates. They are not mutually exclusive.

Having said all that, I agree from a business perspective that you treat your customers with respect. I just wouldn't want to hang out with any of them, that's all I'm saying. LOL

You came full circle back to attacking your own customers again. This is why if put my money on shap and why I would say that until you stop making these false distinctions and lose the contempt, your success will only be fleeting and you have no chance of bullding anything great.

[fuzebox]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Degenerate porn surfers, gamblers, drug addicts - c'mon people, we are selling to the dregs of soceity. Get your head's out of your asses (unless you make money by putting your head in someone's ass).

Wow.

Having a sex drive makes you a degenerate now?