He is one of the few people who will actually debate you in all of these threads. He is probably the last person you want on ignore for that reason. He will go a few rounds with you on your various talking points.

I love to debate stuff like this. I had never given much thought to what happened in Waco; I only knew what I saw on TV at the time and I was a bit too busy getting laid and wasn't really paying attention.

Thanks to vendzilla and his thirty page report - which was a great read really - It pretty much confirms exactly what I thought all along. ATF did a year long investigation, went in heavy with legal warrants, cops were shot dead, the stand off, millions of dollars and three months wasted, and the nut jobs killed each other and set fire to their building.

Vendzilla looks at these people as "Americans with rights" and I see them as nut jobs who shot and killed police while they were serving a warrant. I am not sure where you are from, but when police have a valid warrant you can't shoot and kill them. Come to think about it, even if they don't have a valid warrant you still can't shoot anyone.

So you have no medical insurance for your kids? You can choose to pay the fine its less then $300 for the whole year which is $25 a month.

But did you ever stop to wonder why the unions are against this?

It's pretty simple. If the government lowers healthcare below the "special deals" unions have put in place to "protect their workers", why would anyone need the collective bargining powers of the unions? Unions get people good benefits, better wages, and better working conditions. Take away one of the three things the unions do for their members, and well, suddenly the unions aren't nearly as important.

And how is that helping the people? Fine/tax them for not buying something they can't afford?

Because when they have to go to the ER because they have no insurance we all pay for that. I bet dollars to donuts back when this was the Doles plan to fight Clinton care created by the heritage foundation and old NEWT said its about time we have some personal responsibility talking about everyone having to have health insurance. You stood up and cheered.

I have stood behind the concept of personal responsibility my entire life. I would expect anyone that has stayed at the helm of their own business can say that.

Back during the Clinton years the average income across the board rose every year. For the last 5 years it hasn't.

Regardless, I thought you were the champion of the poor and huddled masses.
It seems very odd that on one hand you want them to line up for free money from uncle sugar, and then you are okay with fining them when it's still not enough to purchase a product now being mandated.

Would you buy a bigger pipe? Do a little research. US budget roughly is -

1 - 25% debt interest
2 - 25% military
3 - 25% Social Security and Medicare
4 - 25% The rest

So figure out how to cut 10% if you can't cut the first three like the Republicans want? The Democrats won't cut 1 and 3 and are big fans of 4. Bernake already cut number 1. It is lower then it was in 2000 as a % of GDP. So number 2 needs to be on the table and deadly third rail needs to be finally dealt with.

OR the USA can go broke. The whole budget thing is a fight over the fact no one wants to touch number 3 one which is growing the fastest. Everyone knows it, and no one would reelect them if they cut it so we pretend to fight over number 4.

So yes, you raise the roof and hope you are out of office before the place fills up totally.

Please show me where I said people should get free money from Uncle Sugar? It seems when your side has nothing intelligent to say it comes down to me getting welfare checks in the mail or wanting everyone to suck on the gov tit. One thing I like about VEND love him or hate him he doesnt get personal.
If they make no money they arent fined, they get medicare now. Otherwise they choose not to have healthcare then they pay a fine. One person its $95 a yr and its written into the law the irs will take no action on the people that dont pay it so its nothing.

Another thing to stick in your pipe and smoke. I didnt vote for Obama last election voted in all the other things that were up for votes ,sat out the president. Sorry its all we have is not good reason for me to give someone my vote.

Japan's debt over 200% of gdp and they survived. First world countries dont fail,people forget that.

The problem is that not a single human being has used the plan yet but they are sure it is doomed.

How do I even take anyone seriously when the same shit happened with the birth certificate?

Repubs have come up with a "flaw/error/tragedy" for everything Obama does and it all seems like bitter losers whining to me.

:2 cents:

Go back and review that $95.00 number. It's that or 1% of your income, whichever is the highest. And in 2015 that number goes to 2.5%...

You don't need to take potshots at me about *my side* I don't agree with the far right.
If you want to take potshots take them on the number and costs. And make sure your gun is loaded. Mine is. As obamacare is now implemented it's not a sustainable program and in fact it only becomes another tax.

There is one thing you keep blowing over. Unions and big business workers are already covered by health insurance. The goal of Obamacare is to get as many Americans covered as possible, so converting large numbers of employees that already have health insurance on to Obamacare at the start is not needed. In fact it's better to let them come into the plan at a latter date.

Oh and on that note. The girl I'm dating works at Staples in one of their shipping centers. She just got the letter from them about her Heath insurance and Obamacare. The letter states very clearly that nothing will change and her cost will not increase but all workers whom are part time or that don't qualify for their insurance will now be able to get insurance via Obamacare..

So really what's the big deal? You guys keep using the fact that big business taking longer to transfer over is proof Obamacare is shit, but your telling half truth and spreading BS. Big business employees that can't get insurance now, ARE getting it via Obamacare..

So really stop with the miss information that is spread by republicans and lobbyist whom are paid to lie and misrepresent the truth.

Im taking pot shots? lets see you said you go to your mail box for your obama checks. People getting free things from Uncle Sugar. But you are just a guy just telling the facts getting attacked by me. lol
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...alth-care-law/
Some facts for people that want them.

Basically, all you have to do is assume Republicans are wrong, as they almost always are. They're on the wrong side of every issue, almost all of the time.

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On which points do you not agree with the far right...I'm curious...seems you said you're for single payer which would be directly against the ideology you have been shouting about.

Not to be rude but you come off a little like most Republicans who contradict their philosophies on a daily basis.

My father in law just recently labeled himself "independent" because the news finally filtered down to him that Republicans have some crazy views lately. This is a guy who has been a dyed in wool in conservative for as long as I've known him. He voted for Mitt Romney because that's what his precious GOP put in front of him. That's Republican.

If the GOP would put up a candidate I liked, I'd vote for him. But they all seem like a bunch of arrogant, selfish fucksticks...John Huntsman notwithstanding.

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You know that food stamps has gone up 400% under Obama and that the FDA is teaching the Mexican Nationals in Mexico how to better use them?

Or did you know that Los Angeles county spends 850 million dollars a year on welfare to illegal aliens?

And did you know that California legislators are voting to keep the federal government from shipping illegal aliens back to Mexico?

Obamacare is just going to cost more and Ben Bernake is already printing up 85 billion dollars a month to help the economy, I don't see it helping much!
Well, it's helping the banks a lot

GREAT STUFF BFT3K


keep em comin

I post facts, I'm sorry if people can't debate that

You want to debate Obamacare, my take on it is it has a lot of holes in it, 20,000 pages of holes and needs to be fixed. I have seen several people on this forum say that it's a good start and we needed to get it in there, it will grow into something good after that. I hope so.
I wish it was done right the first time .Debate that!

They have interest rates at zero and expanding their debt at a huge rate. Their debt is also owned by the Japanese people so that seems to stabiles it but I would not be vying any in japan at this moment.

What does this have to do with the costs and the penalty?
That's my only beef with obamacare.

To be clear.. the idea of healthcare for people. I agree.
Most of the benefits of obamacare in holding insurance companys to task. I agree.

I wish there was some way to let the people decide on Obamacare......

I have an idea, just stay with me for a second

What if say back in 2012 their could of been some kind of test of support from the people. They could choose to select Obama and his plan or the GOPs leader and his plan (obviously the GOP would pick someone who is totally against the basic idea of Obamacare)

Not really sure on the logistics of all of this, but lets say both sides would be allowed to spend billions of dollars marketing their plans to the citizens. Then on a specified date citizens would be allowed to pick a side in some kind of popularity contest.

The winner of said contest would be the party that receives the majority of the votes.

I know your saying but what if the two parties lie just to win this popularity contest..... That is a great question and the only real answer I can come up with is to re do the whole contest again in increment amounts of time.... not perfect but it might work?

What the Republitards are demanding in their ransom note...

We’ll refrain from deliberately sabotaging the global economy, Speaker John Boehner and the other leaders said, if President Obama allows more oil drilling on federal lands. And drops regulations on greenhouse gases. And builds the Keystone XL oil pipeline. And stops paying for the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. And makes it harder to sue for medical malpractice. And, of course, halts health care reform for a year.

Yeah, good luck with that, teatards!

The polls on Obamacare have show something weird lately. In any instance when its called the Affordable Care Act, it rates 10 percentage points higher than when its referred to as "Obamacare". What does that tell you?

Whan you list those things, they sound like a bunch of villains.

shows that citizens united ruling needs to be reversed because unlimited money in campaigns is baaad

You don't post facts, you post your opinions. You said "The Branch Davidians didn't have any illegal weapons" yet they did. You also said people died because of the tear gas attack, and then pointed out the report that said the direct opposite.

You don't post facts and you don't even read what you link up to.

Did you know that the last Republican government destroyed our economy, which is why so many people are on food stamps?

Don't tell me people are on welfare because of Obama. They are on welfare because of what happened BEFORE Obama was elected.

In this case, you would have he democrats vote for Obamacare, and the Republicans would vote for plan b. The people in the middle would decide, and the republicans will tell us about how Obamacare funds death boards where doctors get to decide who lives and dies - meaning, both sides will spin their version and who ever spins the best will win.

I think what we need to do is do Obamacare, figure out what's wrong with it, and then fix those items. Scrapping it and starting again isn't going to fix anything.

It's all about "spin".

Call it Obamacare and everyone sees a constant battle with Republicans.

Call it the "affordable helathcare act" and people think "Gee, that sounds like a good idea, affordable healthcare".

Rochard debates you all of the time based on facts. I am not sure why you would ignore some dude who seems to go toe-to-toe with you in every debate on most of your subject matter.


:2 cents:

I would say that if that same "Test" were held 20 years ago (or at anytime in U.S. history before then) it would have been a resounding "NO" on Obamacare.

Unfortunately, the Federal Govt. (dems and repubs) now have the majority of the American people receiving some kind of "govt. assistance"

That's the first time in the history of our country that has happened. Over 50% of the people now get something from the govt. :(

And when you are getting something from the govt., well...you tend to want MORE. So you vote accordingly.
Back in the old days it used to be called "Buying Votes".

And if you noticed the election results... the areas where people get "free" stuff from the govt. voted overwhelmingly Democrat (the NorthEast big cities).
The areas of the country where people do not...voted Republican.

If you look at the election map and just went with what the map of the U.S. looks like and have it painted Red and Blue...it would appear that Romney won big time.

But the tiny blue areas are places like New York, Philadelphia, Detroit, Boston, Chicago...giant cities full of people on govt. assistance.

Just an observation.

You know better than that.

The economy collapsed because the housing market collapsed.

The economy is slowly reviving because the housing market is reviving.

You might want to start watching some business networks. They have really good analysis of the economy and how it works.

To just say it was "Republicans" (meaning the evil Bush), is totally wrong. It was a lot of things that started back during the Clinton Administration by Congress and continued on until the "bubble" burst.

Housing. End of story. Housing caused it. Housing is fixing it.

We get it,,you are a for the people bleeding heart liberal. SO why don't you tell us what it is you actually do for the people. Actually, there is no need. The answer is obvious.

You do nothing. You like obama and you think that's all there is to do. And you hate people like me that don't agree with your ideals.

The difference between us, is I put my time and my money where my mouth is. If you'd like to attend I am again sponsoring meals for children. Last year we barely missed our goal of 1 million meals to Haitian children. And when I say sponsor, I don't just mean writing out the check. I mean hosting it and spending many hours at the table putting together the meals. Last year we had over 120 people here participating. And they were all the people you hate.
Doctors, lawyers, business people who give up their time and money.

These kinds of chartitable events go on constantly. You have this idea that everyone in business or has done ok in the US is Gordon Gekko.. They aren't.

My staff and I work hard to make the plant a safe and productive place. And we are succeeding. We spend countless hours researching the best benefit programs.

My philosophy on finance and business has never varied. If you're interested go back 10 years and read any of my posts. I was against obamacare when it was first rolled out for strictly financial reasons and that has not changed.

Call it "Treating Citizens Like Criminals" and everyone is against it.

Call it "The Patriot Act" and people THINK: "Gee, that sounds like a good idea, I'm a patriot too!"