Obamacare will end up simply being another tax on the masses. That 70% nonparticipation won't change. Our plan is to give our employees a 1% x-mas bonus so they can pay the tax. I don't know what the average payrate is for Americans, but I know that in the Midwest a job for over $12 an hour is considered good. Retail jobs pay $10, agricultural under $10 THe average hourly in our company is about $15 and as I said, 70% won't take it.

And when one of these workers of yours has a child who gets sick and needs surgery and a lengthy hospitalization and the medical bills add up to $100,000 who pays that bill? You know it's impossible for a person making $400 a week to save a thing.

As a conservative what's your answer to that? If you're a true conservative you'll say the hospital should turn the child away and let nature take its' course. I doubt you're that hard hearted - so who pays for the expensive medical treatment? Even if this worker could afford to pay $200 a month towards the bill - that's $2400 a year, even without interest that's 41.6 years to pay for one family member's illness. Meanwhile the family's income is going to stay the same and if it's one of those unlucky families another couple of costly health emergencies crop up before the kids are grown up. When the kids are grown up this worker is going to be near retirement, both him and his wife have a good chance at needing treatment for conditions and illnesses that people get as they age, and that includes people who take fairly good care of themselves. What this couple is going to retire on isn't much. So when this worker has a heart attack at 60 and needs bypass surgery where is the money to pay another $100,000 for that?

Conservatives are as blind as liberals. The answer as a society is to take on the entire healthcare industry and tell them that healthcare isn't like any other industry, you get rid of the middlemen, and you put wage and price controls on those who work in and service the industry. People who go into healthcare will understand, they want to help people don't they? I think a specialist who makes 1 million a year could get by on 500-700K.

Medical industry is the tail wagging the dog.

Take a look at how the medical industry works when the government and the insurance scumbags aren't involved - the business of elective cosmetic surgery. Somebody wants new boobs, they go shopping for doctors and they find a wide disparity in prices for the same procedure, one doctor charges $18,000, he's got the luxury offices and the big name medical school degree, another doctor charges $3,000. The insurance companies, the hospitals and doctors massively inflate the costs of medical treatment.

I read an interesting thing. When you really think about it, the GOP doesnt think Obamacare will be this huge failure. They think its going to work thats why they are trying so hard to stop it.
If its this huge failure they keep saying its going to be, really why stop it? They let go forward, its awful. Another democratic isnt elected to office for the next 30 yrs.

Midwest is about same as FL then on pay. Here in New England I'd say average is closer to $17 or so at a factory/warehouse type job. That's assuming they are company employees and not temps of course. I know the son of one of my friends just got a entry level position at a machine shop for $30k a year. One of the big distribution centers is always advertising $40k/year for their warehouse workers and there is a Frito Lay package plant that pays their temps $19/hr and their permant employees start at $20 something/hr.

That was all kind of a shocker to me when I moved up here after knowing how low wages were in FL. TBH it was one of the main reasons I alway had my own business, because there was no way I was going to work for someone else for $10/hr and get no insurance or anything else, which is very common in FL.

I don't know if you were aware of this, but part of its main focus is to lower healthcare costs overall. Why would you think a democratic president's healthcare reform is about making insurance companies richer? That's what a Republican would do. The Cleveland Clinic story is a good example of this, although the conservatives have spun a narrative that says Obamacare killed jobs.

But you seem to think there's no difference between the sides. That seems like more of a mantra you keep repeating to yourself, but it's pretty far from the truth. There's a huge difference in the parties, as evidenced by everything we've been watching unfold in the last couple of years. You have one idealogy based in selfishness, bigotry and lack of compassion -- and then the other side who basically wants the opposite.

You're painting all politicians with a big broad stroke that says they're all crooks. So there's guys on both sides who are in it for the money, but that doesn't make the entire game a fraud. There's people with ideas trying to get things done, and another side who wants to make sure rich people can get all the breaks they can get, and fuck everyone else. They're either going to find a way to be more appealing to the general public, instead of rich people and southern racists -- or die a political death, and always be the whining baby trying to throw a monkey wrench into everything.

This is the way I see it as well. I don't by any means think democrats are perfect, but they are the best choice when it comes to fairness to all tax payers.

When you listen to the Right it's always me,me,me.. I got mine fuck you. To me the most amazing part is how the right has managed to convince the bulk of their voting block, to vote against their own interest.

Sure I can get that someone making $150k a year or more would vote for less taxes. Totally understandable, but the bulk of the Rights voting block is not making $150k a year or even close. Back when I was in FL it was so freaking common to see some redneck trailer trash that was on welfare complaining about democrats giving people hands out.. Or someone making $20k a year voting for Republicans because they think they will pay less taxes.. It's like umm hello I'm going to slap you for being so fucking uninformed.

I'm actually going back to FL for a few months and honestly I really dread it. That state is like seeing vultures waiting for the cow to die. Everywhere you go it's fast cash payday loans, pawn shops, buy here pay here car lots , churches and gun stores. In Daytona there was even a place called "rent a wheel" that was like the furniture chain rent a center but for fucking car wheels.

If I could answer all the questions you pose, I would. I know that it's all a matter of statistics and the large majority of people will never use the insurance.

When a child gets sick, what happens here often is that the community does what it can with fund raisers. Banks and businesses often contribute and at the end the hospital takes the writeoff, which is easier when you are making massive profits.

My comments about the inevitable failure of Obama care is only about the facts as I see them. 70% don't take it now in our group because it's not affordable. It's not going to get any more affordable. The government knows this so Obamacare is ultimately just another tax. The government forcing you to buy a product.

I am fiscal conservative..not a social one.

That's ridiculous. It's not going to work. How can it? The premium cost is not going down. It's going up an average of 14% next year. The federal government is on the brink of insolvency. You go stand by your mailbox and wait for that Obamacare check to show up.

It's a tax...more tax on the people that can least afford to pay it.

The thing is, the hospitals are playing a game with those write offs. They are half the blame as to why costs are so high.

The hospital will charge $100k for something, but the insurance company actually only pays like 30% of that cost. The hospitals charge a high price, so they can use the difference as a write off. The best part is the end user still pays the deductible on the full price not the hidden price that the insurance companies actually pay.

This is why hospitals always claim to be operating at a loss.. Its why Obama care cant fix everything in one go.. The whole system is a scam, but we have to start somewhere.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...te-shock-here/

My father-in-law, is an oral surgeon -- and he was crying about Obamacare when it was first conceived. He's gone on to say recently it hasn't been the business killing thing he was fearing. But then again, he gets all of his information from FoxNews, so what else was he initially supposed to think?

--and I'm not even trying to trumpet that Obamacare is some great thing. It just sucks to see it preached by the right as some Antichrist, when its not even close to true. I have my own insurance, and its great (my wife is a city employee), and I have zero interest in Obamacare for myself, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't get a chance for people who could use it. Republicans are trying to kill something that appears to be helpful for a lot of people, with no alternative of their own. They just want any kind of victory over Obama, and most of them are probably as misinformed as the general public, or don;t even care. It's all part of the their idiotic sideshow. Congress is a bunch of fucking clowns, and if it wasn't Obamacare, it'd be something else. Those warmongering asses weren't even going to vote for a obligatory US military strike on some overseas brown people. Since when are they pacifists?

This is just plain ignorance. A majority of people will never use it? Do you understand that almost 1 in 2 people will now get cancer in their life? Not to mention diabetes is now considered an epidemic and just about every other major disease is increasing. Talk about living in a bubble.

You cannot be serious if you think this is how things work when a kid gets sick. Maybe you should go visit a childrens hospital and wake the fuck up.

This is what Mitt Romney would say. Like that comment about how kids can just "take risk" or "borrow money from their parents" to ensure their economic futures, like everyone has that ability.

And Obama ran on getting a health care law passed, and Romney ran on getting it appealed and lost. Yet your argument is the republicans are A OK for spending their time doing nothing but wasting time with this bullshit and Obama is the one "shoving it down our throats". You're a funny guy.

Robbie when he's not posting libertarian crackpottery sometimes posts good information. He explained this same thing recently - something I really wasn't aware of. I've been hearing about this outrageous 100 dollar charges for aspirins type propaganda for decades and accepted it.

Anybody who isn't for giving the entire healthcare industry a giant enema is an idiot.

As far as the two parties being the same, this gets parroted on internet forum and news websites a thousand times a day. It's not true, it's the American political system that forces the two parties to negotiate everthing in a spirit of extreme bitterness that leads to both parties ending up doing things that they really don't stand for. IF the US was a parliamentary system where the party that wins the most seats in the legislature becomes the government and is pretty much unchecked in power for 5 years - Obama would have a single payer system and whatever else is in his socialist agenda. And the Republicans should they win a majority would do the same. More would get accomplished.
The problem is that once you give people something it's very hard if not impossible to take it away. So the Republicans couldn't get back into power and just blow up the single payer healthcare system.

I have nothing at all agnst fiscal conservatives if such a magical unicorn actually existed with in the Republican Party.. How they don't exisit or if they do, they have zero power. It's a made up name like a random rock genre.

You can't tell me that there are any fiscal republicans when they are ok with the CIA, NSA and other random intel agencies are getting 52 billion dollars this year to spy on Americans yet we don't have enough money to pay for people to get $4.50 a day in food stamps under the farm bill, but yet under that same farm bill we have $7 billion in subsidies for the farm lobby's corporate sponsors.

Btw many of those same Republicans that voted against food stamps, go traveling around the world on tax payers dime and are given about $160/day for food cost.. Once again on the tax payers dime.

No we don't have fiscal republicans in our govt, we have irresponsible republicans.

Air Force One airfare: $179,750 per hour.. you can buy a lot of foodstamps with that too.

Well I think people claim they are all the same, mainly due to the fact they are all bought and paid for by lobbyist money. I think regardless of who's hat people wear, they all know deep down that their elected leaders really don't work for their good. Not unless you have money for the campaign to win a I owe you.

To me..
Republicans = I'm going to piss on you and tell you it's raining.
Democrats = I'm going to give you stuff but its going to cost you
libertarians = we don't need no stinking govt, we have magic and unicorns

I provide healthcare for our employees.. Always have.
I can't make them take it.

What's your solution for that?

Obama didn't vote against the farm bill and the food stamps. You missed the point.

Not really,, the point is that the federal government is almost bankrupt. In a few weeks they are going to vote AGAIN to BORROW more money.

How many more times can this happen? Obama and the democrats are perfectly aware that they are kicking the can down the road.
Yet they want to keep adding more debt. You are worried about healthcare for people that don't care about it either way. I am worried about what is going to happen when the rest of the world finally decides to stop lending the US any more money.

That's part of Obamacare - the uninsured are forced to buy insurance. if they don't, the government grabs it from them when they file income tax.

Still pissed that he's not riding in the back of the bus?

That's a great plan, fine people for not having the money to buy something they can't afford.

Do you really think Im receiving checks from the government or is that the catch phrase you were taught and dont know better to think for yourself? You are smart really think about it. if its as bad as they say and none of them voted for it. They will never lose an election again.
Also someone goes to the hospital because they cant afford health insure who do you think pays for it? WE do , you are paying a tax for the insured already. Also cant judge premiums because it doesnt start til next month. All those years before obama ive pay for my own health insurance it went up every year never got cheaper.

Thank you all modern presidents flew that way but he is supposed to fly coach. lol

They can't afford to take the insurance on what they are making. This isn't a dig at your company but you said they would need to pay $560/month out of roughly $400/week take home pay. That's just not affordable for them to do. It's not a choice of hey I don't need insurance, it's the same choice faced by most Americans. Pay rent, buy food or buy insurance.

If those same workers lived in MA, they would pay about $70/month for their insurance not $580. It's probably close to what they will pay once Obamacare is in effect. You are trying to compare Obamacare prices as if they will be the same as what is paid now, but the govt is subsidizing the difference if the employee doesn't make over X amount of dollars. Your employes will most likely fall in that category.

So why are you only hands in the air when it's democrats spending, but you never complain when it's republicans?

no they voting on paying the debt they already have.

look up The Santa Claus theory its the republican game plan. Spend like a drunken sailor when in power and the scream about debt when not in power.If Mitt had won you would seen spending like never seen before and the story would of been .The mess we got is worse than we imagined we have to help the country.

what's wrong with forcing people to pay for their own healthcare? So the rest of society isn't forced to pay for the 70% of your workers who turned up their nose at your affordable health insurance should they crash their motorcycle or get cancer. Somebody has to pay and no it won't be the community holding raffles and 5K runs to raise money. That does go on and it's nice but it's no solution, so many people these days are isolated, people move around the country and don't have roots in a community, the way people live has changed.

If you are concerned about government spending then keep the Republicans out of office because they spend as much and even more than the Democrats...they just spend on different things than the Democrats.

This is really the only reason I support democrats. I'm a realist, and understand that no matter who is in office they will gladly spend my tax dollars. For this reason I usually vote democrat, because at least with them I get something for my tax dollars. Republicans simply give me no benefit as they don't give me a return on my tax dollar investment due to me not being in the 1% or the military. The only way I could vote Republican was if they were true fiscal conservatives, that actually cut all spending and did things like balance the budget and minded our own business here in the US. However those republicans don't exist and for the libs that's their fairy tale dream while they continue to back spend crazy republicans.

No question.. it's government spending. The rest of the fellows in this thread are making this out like it's the republicans fault. When in fact, the president and the senate have been democrat controlled for over 5 years. I know we've all seen this before, but it's still worth a look THE US DEBT BY YEAR: From USTREASURY.GOV

09/30/2012 16,066,241,407,385.89

09/30/2011 14,790,340,328,557.15
09/30/2010 13,561,623,030,891.79
09/30/2009 11,909,829,003,511.75
09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49
09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86

09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25
09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 2,602,337,712,041.16
09/30/1987 2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 2,125,302,616,658.42

I'm in mass too, here's the part you missed, romney care would financially destroy the state without the federal government paying for most of it. That system is not sustainable. They rest of the country is paying for mass's health insurance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...or-romneycare/

"The most recent renewal was last December 2011, when the state secured $26.75 billion in federal funds over the course of three years. It will, among other programs, continue to finance the universal coverage program."

All true, but I've read it twice now and I still am not seeing the solution.

Fining people to buy a product they can't afford. That's what they came up with.
And keep in mind. I could easily drop the companies contribution to 50%,which is what most do and it would be even less participation in our group.

Now your argument,,to pay people more. That's not possible. Our payroll is already at the top of the scale on the P&L. If anything we should be looking for ways to reduce payroll costs. Do you think that plastic dropped in price this year? It didn't.
Do you think our customers are just going to pay us more for things they can buy in China for less? They won't

nothing happened it was just obama writing checks to all the poor people. lol

You shouldnt have to be in the healthcare business. It should be baseline medicare for all and if people want greater coverage they buy ridders.

What in that list could you possibly see as funny.


Do you run your house like this? Borrow from everyone you know then make bullshit excuses about how you'll pay them Friday... DO you have children Tony, Doesn't it bother you at all what this government is saddling them with.

But it isn't Tony. It's what we all know it is.

Obamacare is another tax for people to pay.