It was a good meeting..back now for the afternoon.

$328 per month. I know how well the government is at doing math:disgust. But take that for a good number. There are still the deductibles. If you need to go to the hospital it's another $3000 per year. That's another $250 per month, which brings the total to $578. In the case of a worker making $12 an hour that's better than 25% of their income.

There's not an average worker in the US that can afford that. So they gamble that they won't need serious healthcare. Now take the real number of the monthly premium which I am reading off the bill from WPS and the number is what I posted a few days ago in this thread.

From the business side of things, we also are required to have work comp insurance. That cost has risen as fast as healthcare. Today, that cost is way into the six figures annually for our business. I can only imagine what GM pays.. And that rate is based on a government controlled mod-rate. If you've have any serious accidents in the factory that mod-rate rises and stays at that rate for 3 years.

I dumped off ICQ a few years ago. If you still have my old email I do check that at least a few times a week.

Are you saying that like it's a good thing?

My concern in all this is about the people working in the plant. I see how badly the middle class is getting the shaft. I am not denying that management is doing fine. I also realize that a lot of you think that owners and vp's etc...get paid too much. In the cases of fortune500 companies I tend to agree.

I did the math a while back on how much walmart employees would make if the owners didn't take a billion a year as compensation. If you divide that billion amongst all the employees it added up to - not much. It was a few hundred dollars more per year, per employee.

Teatards... The REAL American Morons.

http://www.fetishsoup.com/GFY/TeaCorp.jpg

oh shit that cartoon nails it.

So I guess that means that democrats want the government to be responsible for every part of your lives.

Better than having corporations responsible for every part of our life. At least govt has to abide by the constitution, corporations do not.

Yeah those stupid Tea Party people. Just puppets for "big business"

What? Congress has given itself a financial subsidy for themselves, their families and their staff to help with their "ObamaCare"?

The UNIONS are calling it "disastrous" and wanting to be exempted from it?

Walgreens just dropped all of it's employees from their healthcare plan and now they will all have to buy NEW health insurance on the govt. run "Exchanges"? (so they DON'T get to "keep their current health care" like Obama promised in all of his speeches).

Home Depot just did the same thing.

Companies are cutting hours so people are now making even LESS money so the companies can avoid the burdens of ObamaCare on them?

Wow.
And this is a DEMOCRAT law?

But the Dems aren't a bunch of puppets...right?

Enjoy the trillions of dollars you're getting handed to you Big Insurance, Big Pharma, and Big Medical Corp.

Thank goodness for ObamaCare!

Hey there..YOU CAN'T TALK LIKE THAT..DAMN RACER!@! :winkwink:

if the government wants to take responsibility for everyone's life, then let them. i suppose in the first instance it saves your own ass, just pin the blame on the government who feels the need to behave so socialist.

personal responsibility went out the window when the united states government decided to turn in to a wild out of control dog.

The good news is that the US is not totally under zombie control..yet
There are still a lot of people that don't buy into it. As time goes on a lot of those that do buy into are destined to be very disappointed when the government fails to deliver on these *promises*. It's not a matter of IF the US government runs out of money.

This one sums it up perfectly.

But this is the problem. You watch CNBC, I watch something, Baddog reads the newspaper (oldschool), and Minte sits around in his country club and they discuss politics.

Yet honestly, not one of us is really able to debate any of this. Does anyone of us four have a degree in higher economics? If not, we aren't qualified to understand the basics of running a country, an economy, or even a state or a city. I've become "somewhat slightly" involved in our local city government, and it's thirty rounds of "what should we do".... Should we keep the city park open and maintained because grades 2-8 use the big park daily for their sports, close down one of five fire stations, or lay off yet more police officers? (At this point we've cut back on all three, plus more city services.)

We've laid off way too many police officers, and vandalism spiked. Every morning we woke up to find a dozen cars hit. There is no right answer at this point.

And none of us are really qualified to debate any of this at any serious level, although all of us - and the general population does.

Out of the above list, when it came to finances... I would vote for Minte.

We are going to be disappointed no matter what.

Nothing is being done and this problem has been ignored for decades. You don't see this because you fly pimp in a $200k car, and you can afford healthcare and ANY healthcare related costs.

But then compare this to your employee who makes $75k a year but one third of his salary on healthcare. The benefits you offer him are utterly of no use to him; both his wife and his son have pre-existing helathcare issues and CANNOT change insurance plans. In the mean time, they continue to soak him.

This isn't something I made up; A friend of mine has this exact issue. He is fifty, works construction; His son is considered a "miracle baby" because he had health problems the day he was born and will for the rest of his life, while his wife has some kind of issue that requires bi-weekly treatments.

It isn't a matter of if he will go into bankruptcy, but instead it's a matter of when. He can barely afford what he is paying now, and the moment one of these two health conditions become serious and life threatening, he will not be able to afford the out of pocket costs and will be forced into bankruptcy. These costs, repeated hundreds of thousands of times a year, are added on to future healthcare costs which only makes the problem worse.

I can't really begin to debate Obamacare; I cannot figure out what is real and what is lies by one side or the other. I don't want something forced on me, and I don't want something that fucks up my taxes because I already have an accountant who ensures I pay as little taxes as possible. I like what Hawaii has; Their healthcare coverage is 92% which is outstanding.

Something needs to be done, and clearly the Republicans weren't up to it. Then Obamacare came along, and Republicans have spent three or four years trying to destroy it.

You could put three economists on this board and you would get three different answers. A big problem is lots of misinformation taken as fact.
The recession was an excuse for companies to dump payrolls. They were doing this during the magical bush years but most weren't paying attention. My Dad worked for a health ins company and they were getting rid of more and more people before the recession happened. Its one of the easiest ways to make a balance sheet look good and you need less people than you once did,technology is a blessing and curse. .
My insurance has gone up every year since I first got it, 12 yrs ago. Its just the excuse. Mark my words once its running more will be happy then pissed. That is why GOP noise machine has kicked up a notch. I think it should of been medicare for all myself and you want more you buy a ridder.

And in the event our government is forced into a shut down... Everyone in Congress goes home (at their own expense), no power in the federal buildings, and no guards.

See how quickly that shit will last.

Obamacare is not supposed to be the be-all-end-all to everything healthcare, it's a starting point.

To my understanding, it is supposed to give everyone basic health insurance coverage to some degree. I am sure Minte and the rich, much like in other countries, will pay additional for premium healthcare which will be offered I am sure. You will simply have different tiers of care based on your wealth.

Obamacare is supposed to help to reduce healthcare costs giving people basic health coverage where people take advantage of preventive care lowering costs overall. You have more people in the pool to also allow high risk people to get covered where before they had to do without unless they paid very high premiums. Everyone can now get covered regardless if they have AID, cancer, diabetes, whatever.

This is version one of this program. It's not going to be magically perfect on it's first roll out, and I am sure if you open up a history book of socialized medicine in other countries, it wasn't perfect there either.

:2 cents:

look at this. the united states government could be facing another shut down soon and i got this e-mail from an "abby witt" from the campaign office of barack obama. read this e-mail and make of it what you will.

:1orglaugh

Morons vote Republican.

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...25957550_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...45774504_n.png

Dude, that last picture is ridiculous.

The Insurance Company just hit the fucking jackpot with ObamaCare!

IF he had done singlepayer...they would have been out of business. Instead...they just got handed tens of millions of new customers by the Democrats.

I wish the govt. would FORCE people to buy my products too. Must be fucking nice. :(

The insurance companies don't like ObamaCare? Give me a fucking break! This is the greatest thing that ever happened for them.

I love Faux Noise and conservative hate radio. They always tell you the truth... or not...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...ort-obamacare/

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012...able-care-act/

I seem to recall the insurance companies opposing Obamacare when it was in the planning stage as the links in the post above...indicate.

I'm sure you're all wondering what us Canadians think of this...

Last thing I was thinking

I think they were too...though none of us can know that for sure.
ObamaCare at first was widely thought to be a completely different animal than what this monstrosity has turned out to be.

But after Obama had those initial meetings with Big Pharma and gave them all their assurances...up next were the insurance companies.

And if this isn't the greatest thing for Insurance Companies that ever happened...

They now have the govt. forcing every human being in the United States Of America to buy their product whether they want to or not. It just doesn't get any better than that.

If Obama and the Democrats had went with Single Pay...the insurance companies would have went out of business.

And the thing that keeps being "forgotten" is...they COULD have done it.

This ObamaCare that we now have wasn't written to help appease Republicans...not ONE Republican voted for it, and not ONE Republican was allowed to write it or have anything to do with the writing of it.

This is all Democrat, and is making a fortune for the Insurance Companies...well, even MORE of a fortune for the Insurance Companies.

I only wish that there was a law that said everybody in this country would be FORCED to buy a product of mine. That's over 300 million "customers" who have no freedom to decide whether they want it or not.

That's just too sweet.

Well...as I recall there was over 200 Republican proposals adopted into the bill...and though the bill was pretty much identical to what the Republicans had previously proposed they openly announced they did not want Obama to succeed at anything and that is why they voted against the bill.

As for the insurance companies I think the insurance companies still do not like the law because they are pretty much much forced to accept measures that they do not like and will reduce their bottom line.

I don't get this at all.

Common sense dictates that you should never allow yourself to get back into a corner unless you are willing to come out swinging. Obama did this with Syria; He drew a line and they crossed and he looked like a dope trying not to take action.

It's the same thing with this deadline. If the Republicans back down, they look like idiots and hand a win to Obamaboy. If the Republicans let the government shut down, they look like idiots and hand a win to Obamaboy.

Then to top it all off... The Republican party is doing this in vain trying to shoot down a bill that is already a law, and has already been reviewed by the Supreme Court. At this point they are kicking a dead horse over and over again. I'm not saying Obamacare is perfect or even remotely good - I just don't know - but all they are doing is looking like idiots trying to kill something that is not only law, but has also faced and beat multiple legal challenges from many sources.

And as for deadlines... We need a new law. Thirty days away from a deadline like this Congress should be legally restricted to their offices, not allowed to go home, not allowed to shower, not allowed to see family members... Until the deadline is met. And if said deadline isn't met, Congress shuts down, everyone goes home, and we hold new elections in thirty days. I am so not kidding here. It's time to treat Congress like the fucking children they are.

This is my understanding as well. It was a Republican proposal that became a Democratic bill, and had input from Republicans in it. The problem is they couldn't let the Democrats have a win, they vowed to kill it, and since then they have been kicking a dead horse over and over again.

Congress needs to do their jobs and stop bitching about the other side winning or loosing.

No, definitely not. But don't you think the EPA should exist? Let's say some corporation needs to get rid of 10,000 barrels of toxic waste. Do you think they wouldn't just dump it in any river if there was no one to keep them in check?

Do you think education should be privatized? So basically only people born with a silver spoon in their mouth will be able to get an education.

Business can't run and shouldn't run everything.

Yea cracked me up during the last presidential debates when all the repug candidates said they would abolish the EPA...bought and paid for stooges

Insurers spent that money because they know the big scam is coming to an end.

Republicans are so desperately trying to stop Obamacare before it's implemented because -- while they're optimistic it won't work -- a small part of them knows it could likely be successful, and that's a victory for Obama. The one thing they can't have is Obama having political victory, especially when they went so hard against the program. It would be the final nail in the coffin for the Republican party.

I was curious and Googled who wrote Obamacare and found out about this

Rep. Schakowsky?s husband, Robert Creamer, used to be the leader of Citizen Action/Illinois. He also founded its predecessor, Illinois Public Action, in which Ms. Schakowsky served as Program Director. He runs a political consulting firm, the Strategic Consulting Group, which lists ACORN and the SEIU among its clients and which made $541,000 working for disgraced former Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich.

Creamer resigned from Citizen Action/Illinois after the FBI began investigating him for bank fraud and tax evasion at Illinois Public Action. He was convicted in 2006 and sentenced to five months in federal prison in Terre Haute, Indiana, plus eleven months of house arrest.

While in prison?or ?forced sabbatical,? he called it?Creamer wrote a lengthy political manual, Listen to Your Mother: Stand Up Straight! How Progressives Can Win (Seven Locks Press, 2007).

The book was endorsed by leading Democrats and their allies, including SEIU boss Andy Stern?the most frequent visitor thus far to the Obama White House?and chief Obama strategist David Axelrod ...

* ?We must create a national consensus that health care is a right, not a commodity; and that government must guarantee that right.?
* ?We must create a national consensus that the health care system is in crisis.?
* ?Our messaging program over the next two years should focus heavily on reducing the credibility of the health insurance industry and focusing on the failure of private health insurance.?
* ?We need to systematically forge relationships with large sectors of the business/employer community.?
* ?We need to convince political leaders that they owe their elections, at least in part, to the groundswell of support of [sic] universal health care, and that they face political peril if they fail to deliver on universal health care in 2009.?
* ?We need not agree in advance on the components of a plan, but we must foster a process that can ultimately yield consensus.?
* ?Over the next two years, we must design and organize a massive national field program.?
* ?We must focus especially on the mobilization of the labor movement and the faith community.?
* ?We must systematically leverage the connections and resources of a massive array of institutions and organizations of all types.?
* ?To be successful, we must put in place commitments for hundreds of millions of dollars to be used to finance paid communications and mobilization once the battle is joined.?

Creamer adds: ?To win we must not just generate understanding, but emotion?fear, revulsion, anger, disgust.?

Creamer wrote his plan in 2006, explicitly proposing that it be carried out in 2009, once a ?progressive Democrat is elected President? and once Democrats could count on 60 votes in the Senate. It is curious that Creamer, sitting in prison, could have predicted the details and the timing of President Obama?s legislative agenda so precisely.

The likeliest explanation is that Creamer helped design the Democrats? health care strategy. That would explain why President Obama made health care an obsession in 2009, when it was only one among many issues he raised on the campaign trail in 2008. It would explain the role of several overlapping left-wing groups, including Creamer?s own Citizen Action/Illinois.

It would explain why HCAN was particularly aggressive at Rep. Schakowsky?s own town hall meeting. And Creamer?s involvement would also explain his high profile after being released from prison. He worked for the Obama campaign, training volunteers at ?Camp Obama.? He has continued his work at the Strategic Consulting Group, leading ?many of the country?s most significant issue campaigns,? he claims. He was also at the White House state dinner last month?together with Stern, Axelrod, and other cronies?despite the fact that ex-convicts are usually barred from such events.

For a moment put aside the faux news, we don't like obama ,we want it to fail because we are racists...and just look at the numbers. You can read, or listen to any of the tv news outlets and they all agree on these points.
#1 - The country currently owes $17 trillion dollars.
#2 - The country currently is spending more than it is receiving in taxes.
#3 - The country currently needs to borrow an additional $600 billion to cover what it currently is spending.
#4 - And this is big... obamacare will cost an additional $1.2trillion a year.

Where does that additional $1.2t come from?

How does obamacare pay all these subsidies when the government doesn't have the money to pay for any of it.

Perhaps you should 'google' some additional facts before you go on the standard cherry picking Vendzilla ranting about politics of the day. Here are a few gems for your pleasure to clarify your repeated confusion.

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/fac...macare-claims/
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/war...-on-obamacare/
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/08/no-...-for-congress/

Queue Rochard in 5....4.....3....

:winkwink:

And the name calling and finger pointing between Obama and the congress is already in full swing. The battle is whether to allow the goverment to increase the debt limit again and BORROW more money just to pay current bills and some of the interest on the debt.

Whether you are a democrat or a republican you should be calling and emailing your elected representives and teliing them this has to stop. How much more borrowing can we do. This spending is beyond out-of-control.

yes this is all about pride...and the attempt to follow through on a job that you were paid well (hundreds of millions) to do.

The health care industry paid all these right wing candidates, lobby groups, and chamber of commerce hundreds of millions of dollars to defeat Obamacare. They actually BOUGHT the elections of most of these Tea Party crazies...so yea they are doing their best to pay back their masters.

Once this big budget misinformation campaign runs out of steam - and people start realizing how the ACA , while far from perfect, is a great step in the right direction - well this whole Teapublican movement will be utterly discredited and go down as one of the most absurd and corrupt chapters in our history.

I don't know whose number you are using for the cost of Obamacare...or how accurate it is but I think the number you are stating is projected over a ten year period not per year.