https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2568905472/h95D243C3/

That's because I see us as one big dysfunctional industry, made up of people of every sexual flavor (gay, straight, bi, TG/TS).

Frankly, I'm surprised that more of the big straight adult companies, as well as talent agencies, aren't sued more often (and no, I won't post the stories to support that, since I really don't want to hurt the industry). :winkwink:

Gay and straight people pointing fingers at each other isn't going to resolve this issue. And honestly, it really isn't about that, it's about health and safety. Let's try to find the common ground around health and safety and build from there.

If the factions cannot reach consensus, it may be that two (or more) trade organizations may emerge.

All I know is that the current system is broken and is in need of fixing. :2 cents:

:stoned

ADG

I'm not pointing fingers at the gay side of the industry.

Matter of fact, it only makes sense that IF they have a group of performers who have all already tested positive for HIV and everyone knows it...they why would they give a shit if those particular performers do scenes together?

As long as any uninfected gay performers are not shooting scenes with them it doesn't really matter does it?

Testing nor condoms would be required for a sex scene with 2 guys or a group of guys who have already confirmed that they are all HIV pos
To test them or put condoms on would be downright silly.

So if that's what is happening...so what? Doesn't hurt anybody. The guys can take their pill everyday, outlive you and me, shoot their porn scenes together and live their lives.

But yeah, that is TOTALLY separate from the straight side of adult and should be treated as such.
And it IS treated as such.

That's why people are tested to shoot straight porn.

Just curious...what do you THINK the "industry" could possibly do differently?

Test every week? Everybody use condoms? Put chastity belts on all the talent when they leave the set? Lock them up in shed until needed to shoot...lol

You know better than that.

People will live their lives the way that they want to. And if they contract HIV their straight porn career is over.

So far the testing regimen has worked. It's caught the rare cases and stopped any spread throughout the general porn population.

If the "civilian" population had such standards...HIV would be almost non-existent today.

You said that the "current system is broken"...Well, I do think that it's bullshit that the testing companies are charging $130 for a $59 test, but other than that I'd say that this proves once again that the "system" worked to perfection and caught a case of HIV before it could become widespread.

Where am I wrong in this thinking?

been told that different stains of HIV are not a good thing to have , bad deal from multi strains... someone let me know if this is misinformation

3 ways to get infected: direct blood transfusion from infected blood, direct infection from sharing a needle with an infected person and anal sex... and I say anal sex because my information is HIV is not a 'hardy virus' ... when Darren James infected 5 models my information is from double anal, one model I know did anal with Darren the same day he infected one of the models BUT she only did anal, not double anal... I do know that is all politically incorrect however this is what I know and have been told for many many years...

in fact as a recovering addict I know and knew many, many, many infected individuals, gay and hetro. even know married couples that the woman is infected and the man not infected, slept together for years without condoms before finding out :2 cents:




it's political now... no thinking is involved at any level above producers and performers... all just manipulation now for personal agendas. nothing but grandstanding for attention... plenty of that here at GFY... thing is the people with actual knowledge of the situation, speaking out would only cause social, and financial damage BECAUSE of the current political environment... adult will be pushed underground

The test may be $59 but then there are the admin fees to get those tests into the database, overhead for the office, personal to draw blood, etc. Something has to pay the bills to allow them to provide a service rather then going to a free clinic and dealing with that type of thing.

I understand that...BUT, my gripe was this:

I'm just a single person. I went to my doctor and got the standing order and I get the test for $59

As a businessman I know damn well that if you buy in bulk you get huge discounts. That applies for everything.

I doubt very seriously that AIM ever paid as much as $59 (like I do) for that blood test. They were directing hundreds (maybe a thousand) clients to the same lab for testing every month.
No way that they just picked a lab at random for the actual testing. You know goddamn well that they shopped and negotiated.

Without any knowledge of the actual resulting price...I'd bet my bottom dollar that they were getting the testing done for at least half the price of the $59 that I pay.

These testing companies are big business as middlemen. Let's say they do a thousand talents a month at $130 each. And let's assume they are NOT fucking idiots and DO get a bulk discount and pay $30 a test.

That's $100,000 left over after the testing is paid for per month for every 1,000 people tested.

Then you pay a couple of guys to run the database. Let's say you pay them $1,000 a week each. That's a cost of $8,000.
Now you pay the rent for the office space and server, electric, water, etc.
Let's say that's $5,000 a month.

Now you've still got $83,000 left.
But you're a "non-profit". So what do you do?

You do what all "non-profit" organizations do. You pay the owners of the "non-profit" a giant fucking salary and perks so that at the end of the month the actual company ledgers read "zero".

These people aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They are making a damn good living off of this.

Honestly, I've never given a few of the issues you raised much thought since I work almost exclusively with straight male talent.

Some are medical issues that I do not know enough about. For example, I would need to know whether it is possible for new more virulent strains of HIV+ to be produced by the mixing of many different HIV+ samples, or if such behavior could further hurt someone's health, before giving you an informed answer about whether it is wise, or should even be acceptable for HIV+ people to knowingly keep spreading the HIV virus.

As for some of the other ideas which I think should be considered:

? I think that at minimum we should start with a clean pool as much as possible whenever we end a moratorium (ending the moratorium without seeing Rod Daily's test was a monumental disaster)

? Organize a summit while the moratorium is still in place to address the current issues (testing procedures/protocol, safety/incident report, more public information)

? Develop a comprehensive health and safety curriculum (Porn 101)

? Regular periodic training days to reinforce health and safety rules/practices

? Develop a performer Bill of Rights

? Create an Adult Industry Workers Union (for talent, crew)

? Free testing for talent (show them we care by the industry underwriting the cost)

? Healthcare insurance, and other pooled services for our industry

I can come up with other ideas, many having to do with how we can better fight piracy, developing a post-tube strategy for independent producers, etc (I'm sure I have several ideas written down here and there), but it is not about just what I want, and there are brighter and more creative minds than mine around here anyway.

Well, I'm headed out for a post Burning Man party, so talk amongst yourselves...



Have fun and be safe! :winkwink:

:stoned

ADG

I just did some quick Googling on that out of curiosity.

I googled up "is a person on HIV medication still infectious" and it looks like the general consensus is "maybe, but not likely" (my quotes)

So from what I'm reading...it looks like HIV meds take your viral load down to zero (but you still have HIV and it would quickly shoot back up if you stop the anti-viral meds)

With that in mind, I'd say that IF the guys are taking their meds daily (and I would assume they would so they can stay alive) that there isn't much chance of passing different strains of HIV back and forth.

Not only would their individual viral loads be so low...but the antiviral medication would also grab any weakened strain that MIGHT somehow get passed over (it would be "weakened" from the meds from the guy passing it on).

Anyway...I'm just as ignorant as the rest of us.

I'm just trying to educate myself a little bit and stay away from sensationalized ideas of what HIV is and how it is spread and how it is treated.

I personally think we have made this thing into a much scarier disease than it deserves to be. Not downplaying it...just saying that I think it's been over-hyped and definitely has probably the biggest social stigma of any disease since leprosy.

saw some speculation that rod daily had done this to test

rather have HIV than lung cancer... both lifestyle issue BTW for the most part... I have 0 fear of getting infected with HIV, I've been around it for so many years on a daily basis...

(BTW pretty sure I'll be called a bigot for even using the word 'infected' but hey! that's what it is, isn't it?):2 cents:

was under the impression that AIM didn't pay anything for testing :winkwink:


well manwin did go to every 2 weeks on test after they acquired CET :winkwink:

Oh I agree that money was misappropriated.. AIM went out of business owing something like $250k to the lab service?!?! Something is not right. I was just pointing out that its not as simple as $59/month.

From MikeSouth.com

Saw that, thanks for posting it :2 cents:

A "non-profit" legally only has to pay out 10% of what it takes in to the cause.. Most "non-profits" are doing just that and like you said paying out the bulk in salaries and mostly to the masterminds behind it. There's huge tax advantages behind it and why all rich folk such as Bill Gates do their so called philanthropy.

http://media2.abc15.com//photo/2013/...21_320_240.JPG

A little more info about mixing strains of HIV:

http://caps.ucsf.edu/factsheets/superinfection/

-----

Here is the major dilemma we are facing with regards to having one standard for prevention and testing for the entire industry, as well as some of the underlying contributing factors:

I can see good points to both sides of the argument. Testing is not prevention, and condoms are not completely reliable, and when you add in the human factor (especially greed and ignorance), you can see that it may not be easily solved.

In any case, I doubt that the industry is going to be permitted to conduct business as usual for very much longer given this most recent HIV outbreak, so continuing along the same path is not a good or viable option.

Condoms and testing is probably the most effective thing which we can do if the objective is preventing HIV in the first place, and ensuring that it does not exist in the talent pool (and at the very least we have clear standards/protocols for coping with HIV), although it appears very few people are currently willing to consider that as an option, preferring to continue with their conflicting versions of business as usual (testing only, or condoms only), while practically ignoring the potential overlap/crossover problem.

As one who has worked primarily shooting with testing and no condoms, that is what I am most comfortable with, however I will shoot with condoms if it is mandated, and I'm leaning towards doing that anyway, unless more is resolved with regards to an industry standard for testing.

I'm certainly no Donkey Long, however I feel that we need to close a few loopholes regardless including performers operating in both environments (testing and working some scenes condom-less, while also shooting other scenes with a condom for companies which do not require a test in condom scenes).

I don't wish to discriminate against people with HIV+, however imho we need to balance our concern for people's privacy, and their HIV/STD medical status, with the obligation that we have to ensure the health and safety of workers in our industry, which I feel should be of primary importance to us all.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sit...lients_1_h.jpg

http://pornnewstoday.com/pnt/wp-cont...-derek-hay.jpg

:stoned

ADG

are you trying to say something here?

I haven't researched what's happening in the gay side of the industry and Treasure Island Media. But if the above is true, I would expect gay advocacy groups and HIV/AIDS prevention organizations to be outraged and horrified by this.

Yes, there should be no stigma towards people who are HIV positive. But in that case, one of the performers isn't/wasn't HIV positive. The virus isn't a fact of life for that performer.

Contracting the virus isn't inevitable if you are a homosexual man. Brushing it off as a fact of life is like saying male gay sex is inherently pathological. That's a huge step back for gay rights and increases social stigma.

Let's not forget that unprotected heterosexual intercourse is the main source of HIV transmission worldwide.

If the government makes condoms mandatory for straight porn, then condoms and testing should be mandatory for the WHOLE industry. There shouldn't be a gay and straight industry. There is just the porn industry.

No one should be profiting by encouraging complacency that HIV/AIDS is a manageable chronic illness.

Yes, it is wonderful that it is a manageable chronic illness for those who can afford and have access to medication. But it is still avoidable. I have a chronic illness that is managed with medication. But I was born with it. No one wants to deal with the inevitable side effects, and constant med adjustments when symptoms resurface.

are you trying to deny something :1orglaugh

you have no evidence that the male carriers are not engaged in homosexual activity or if the male/female sex is vag or anal

well - you might want to read again the post you attached my name to - and then you can put up the proof you seem to have that i cannot deny as you insinuate here

the next thing you can do is post a retraction and an apology

and then you can fuck off

take a fucking joke asshole :thumbsup

Life is more complex, but the porn industry is not.

You're trying to find a way to make irresponsible people responsible, and sexually promiscuous people, not promiscuous. And that simply is not going to happen. All the Manwin money around the world isn't going to make a horny guy or girl refuse a risky sexual encounter off cam. You're talking about millions of years of evolution vs porn valley. It is a fight that can not be won.

You're never going to have a leak free porn industry where performers only have bareback sex on cam, and condom only or monogamous sex off cam. That version of the industry is a fantasy.

It's not about 3rd world countries, paying taxes, laws, or anything else. We are all in the same business, and do the same thing. You, me, Porno Dan, and everyone else shooting hardcore, all take the same risks and all risk legal prosecution for various reasons, or if laws are changed. My stakes may appear to be higher, but in reality, fines (bribes) and possible jail time apply to all of us. Porno Dan is "legal" and look what he had to go through recently. You could be next. People are arrested all the time around the USA for producing and selling porn. War has always been waged on porn in the USA, so there or here is a moot point. "Legal" is just a word to make everyone feel better about what they are doing. The fact is, if you're in a community or state where they don't want you to be there, "legal" doesn't mean a whole lot. So we're not much different in that aspect.

Expats are exempt on paying taxes to a certain dollar amount, but we still have to file. We still go to jail if we don't play by the rules of the IRS. We all have the same health issues to deal with. So again, where I work and what I do is not different than anything you guys do. I shoot 200+ scenes a year and go through the exact same process each and everyone of you go through, only we don't use agents, and instead find them on our own.

Most of you who prefer to do things "legally" are only as legal as the upcoming law, or the religious nut with pull who gets a hard on for you. When I was "legal" in the USA I was zoned out of my city when they decided they didn't want me around anymore. After many years without an incident, they suddenly thought I was the devil and out I went. They even changed zoning laws to make it happen. And I was "legal." My choice was to relocate, sue, or be arrested. I sued until it became too large a financial burden, then I relocated. It's pretty expensive and difficult to fight a city on your own.

Of course it's not enough, but that stems from most not actually caring about the performers. Performers are like soldiers in the military.... Expendable. That is an ugly truth that no one wants to talk about, but a truth nonetheless.

If performers were sat down by a doctor before they shot a single scene and were told EVERYTHING, including all the STDs they were 100% sure to catch, most of them would never shoot their first scene.

For example, how many of the girls are told they can get cancer causing HPV in their ass from anal? Or in their throat? Is anyone telling them they should be getting anal PAP smears? You don't have to tell me, because I know the answer is zero.

The FSC is a joke. Why people are giving money to them still is a mystery, unless it's just a cover for money laundering. But they have been marketed in a manner where people actually believe they are supporting a good cause. Who doesn't want to support Free Speech? It's like asking someone to support kids, who wouldn't?

Everyone who pays them is part of the problem. If you want to get rid of the FSC, you need to stop the money flow to them.

But then what? Another group of "industry leaders" will replace them and muck it all up again when Manwin puts its greedy hands up their ass and tells them to talk? You guys are in a pickle, no doubt, and that is why I said it all comes down to education and personal responsibility.

Look after yourself and those who work with you. That's all you can do. Screw the FSC, as they wouldn't stop to piss on you if you were on fire.

Just be lucky you're not in LA. IMHO, you should look into your own method of dealing with things in San Fran. I know you're passionate about all of this, so maybe you should be putting your own group and safety measures together up there and stop worrying about everyone in LA.

That is one thing those of us who don't work in LA have in common, we can all create the working environment and testing procedures we want, within reason. Personal responsibility.

If girls are using H, I think that is a sign of the times and a time bomb. The fact people know about it and continue to work them, pretty much tells you everything you need to know about the current state of affairs.

Again, that's fantasy land stuff. As I just said above, if it's already known and it's accepted, what else do you need to know? Very few people care about performers, and that includes the performers caring for themselves. Being in the eye of the hurricane, it's often easy to forget just how troubled so many of them are.

We all want to be as professional as we can, no matter where we work. But the fact of the matter is, you can only do so much when the very people who are trying to help undermine everything you do to help them.

That's the thing, you can't close that loophole because you can't control what they do in private.

Knowing what I know about human sexuality, the gay business, the tranny business, and a lot of the male performers in the straight porn business, I'm going to assume 1 - 2 out of the top 5 male porn stars are bi-sexual. No one probably knows about it, and they will deny it to their death, but in their private life they suck cock and either pitch or catch. Maybe both. If they are using condoms or not is anyone's guess. If they do use condoms but it breaks while some stranger cum pumps his ass and he gets a butt full of jizz, do you think he's going to call his agent and let him know, or do you think he's going to show up for the next shoot and not say a word about it?

Or better, what if the condom breaks and he doesn't know? Not everyone is going to tell you the condom just broke, especially if they enjoy barebacking. An evil "gift giver" may give him a squirt or two just to be a dick. And then he shows up to work the next day to work on a non-condom set for Brazzers.

How do you stop that?

You can't.

yeah, nice retreat, i wonder who the asshole is here...

in case you didn't realize yet: there are people on GFY that only read and that are not accustomed to your "joking". And you just posted pretty serious allegations towards me.

so you better clarify that

How is this relevant? How does the risk for people in, say, sub-Saharan Africa or South-East Asia have any bearing on the rate of transmission in Los Angeles county?

I checked the CDC's website and learned that in the US the rate of homosexual transmission is more than double that of heterosexual transmission (65% versus 27.3% of total HIV diagnoses in 2011): http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/basics/, under "Diagnoses of HIV Infection, by Transmission Category".

So let's not forget that homosexual sex is the main source of HIV transmission in the United States.

This how different sub strains of HIV are passed around. Various areas of the world have certain sub strains of HIV.

In a perfect world, no one who would ever have sex with someone from LA would ever visit either of those regions of the world and would refrain from having sex with prostitutes from those regions of the world, either in those countries or in LA (lots of trafficked prostitutes in LA). They would also refrain from having sex with anyone else who may have had sex with someone who had sex with someone from those regions. But none of us live in a perfect world.

HIV is global. People travel everywhere. People have sex. People have sex with other people who traveled to other places and had sex with high risk people.

IMHO, it is very relevant. Who is keeping track of all the performers when they go out of the country, and who they sleep with while they are there?

The graphic ADG posted before sums it up nicely. It properly represents one male porn actor who came back from Brazil, where he caught HIV.

http://www.blackyouthproject.com/wp-...infection1.gif

What I'm reading is that the newest "one pill a day" Vireaid handles pretty much all those "sub strains":

"Viread is active against many strains of HIV resistant to Retrovir (AZT), Zerit (d4T), Videx/Videx EC (ddI), Hivid (ddC), and Ziagen (abacavir). There is also some data from studies indicating that HIV that has become resistant to Epivir (3TC) may be even more sensitive to Viread. The drug is also active against virus containing the Q151M mutation—a single mutation that results in high-level resistance to multiple nucleoside analogues."

I'm just trying to educate myself on this a little more. ADG brought up good points about HIV strains and gay performers who are HIV+ performing together.

So I wanted to know more.

And from what I've read, once you are on HIV medications...your viral load drops to "non-existent". Which seems to mean that you aren't infectious at that point.

They even had M/F couples where the male was infected but was on meds and even though he is having unprotected sex with his partner...she is not infected.

I'm not a doctor or an expert. I'm just googling up these things and reading.

I want to know what doctors, scientists, and researchers are saying and what the latest information is.

It sometimes seems that we in the general public are still using info from the 1980's when it was a death sentence.
Again, I don't want to underplay it. I wouldn't want to catch HIV, just like I don't want to have cancer, or heart disease, or anything else.

But I do want to educate myself in what it really is and pass along what I'm reading and maybe others will google it up and find things too.

That post is a prime example (and just one example) of why the industry is a cluster fuck when it comes to health.

Here's why...

You're a very intelligent guy and are pretty up to speed on things, yet you had no idea about sub strains and how all of that works. You're just now gathering information about this, and you're one of the smarter guys in the business. So what does that say about everyone else who can't be bothered to look it up themselves or even know such a thing exists?

No one on the health side of the industry is sharing information like this with the performers, just like they are not warning girls about anal HPV. Why is that? Either they don't know either, or they don't want to scare everyone off. One or the other. But either way, performers get the shaft.

AIM wasn't perfect, but at least they made some effort to educate new performers when they went in to test. Remember the video they gave all the new comers? It didn't talk about everything, but it was better than nothing.

Darren James? he got infected in his PRIVATE life not on set and did in fact infect 5 models in 2004... last infection on set... need the numbers again? BTW that chart is not honest or complete, a total fabrication by the LA Times might as well have AHF make a chart and post it . at what point will you start basing your opinions on facts, not slander by organizations with heavy agenda?

AIM did a great job for a long time DWB :2 cents:

You make it sound like these porn girls and boys are all seasoned world travelers. In my experience, nearly all of the American girls I've ever shot (900+) had never been outside the US. In fact, in recent years, the girls often haven't left whatever flyover they grew up in until they started performing and did the FL/AZ/CA porn Grand Tour.

what's up, Brian? no balls to admit when you screwed up?

You're wrong about where he got it, but it doesn't matter.

You LA people just refuse to get that through your heads. When someone catches HIV outside the industry and then brings it into the industry, it doesn't matter any more. HIV is HIV. On set, off set, it doesn't matter. The end result is someone contracted HIV and spread it.

You guys seriously need to wake up. You're all living in a fantasy, as if the world cares how it was originally contracted, because they don't. Headlines read "Porn star catches HIV" and that's all they need to see. AHF uses that as ammo and are working towards making all of you wear condoms, while you guys are bragging that it wasn't transmitted on set, as if that is some sort of accomplishment. Newsflash, it's not, it's just dumb luck.

The old saying, "cant see the forest for the trees" applies perfectly to all of you working in LA currently. So caught up with stupid details that you are unable to see the larger picture.

In regards to Darrin James, he caught it working in Rio from Bianca Biaggi, but he spread it to girls on set in the USA. Where he caught it is 100% irrelevant, because he spread it. Did the media care where he caught it? No. "Porn star Darrin James has HIV" is what they said. The same about Laura Roxx, Jessica Dee, and Miss Arroyo. The details of the transmission don't matter to the public, as they read AND BELIEVE headlines.

I didn't say they didn't. I said they were not perfect, but they did a decent enough job. MUCH better than what you guys have now. Much, much better.

All you need is ONE person. But there are more than that.

There is no shortage of people from LA coming to Thailand and Philippines to work and "holiday" (screw whores) these days. Where do you think the Thai and Philippine content is coming from today? Because only one person in Thailand is currently selling quality content, and no one in the Philippines is, so that means everyone else is coming to get it on their own. Many of the LA guys are shooting POV scenes to offset their travel costs.

Look around at the current DVDs and new sites for Asian hetro and shemale releases. God didn't miracle that shit to the studios.

This is obfuscation, not illumination.

what are you talking about? why are you using my name? I made a joke ... big deal.... why are you so touchy?

plenty of that going around for sure....

Fair enough. Keep your head in the sand and just pretend it isn't happening. That approach seems to be working out well for you guys.

My head isn't in the sand, which is why I called you out for clouding the issue, instead of clarifying it. The original comment I reacted to referenced worldwide HIV transmission rates--which I thought (and still think) is irrelevant to the discussion of HIV transmission in the LA porn industry.

I see a lot of misinformation and disinformation in these HIV/STI threads, and wonder why that's happening. It seems some of the people posting in those threads have agendas.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/files/...om-400x267.jpg

The current system is a farce. There is no fail-safe system. However, I believe that a better system can be created.

Better testing protocols, better education, and better preventive measures are all possible. :2 cents:

:stoned

ADG

:thumbsup:thumbsup