Originally Posted by theking (Post 19686339)

Pigshit.

Originally Posted by Bman (Post 19686349)

actually all revolutions were started by piddly things...crack open a history book:2 cents:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19686289)

Oh please; he said he could IF he had a personal email address for him. I am not sure why you keep giving this guy so much credit.

Originally Posted by theking (Post 19686339)

Pigshit.

Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 19686351)

http://i.imgur.com/45JJ9wZ.jpg

your constant use of that term is far clearer now, pathfinder



:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686317)

Of course his boss would say that. Do you honestly think he would stand before congress and tell them he gave this young and apparently not smart man total access to EVERYTHING? Not a chance.



I think he had meetings set up in advance, perhaps some agreements on his safety, and he knows what countries won't or can't extradite him. Knowing what countries won't send you back to the USA would be step one.

Put yourself in his shoes. You have access to all of that data. You know where the USA can and can not / does not snoop. So you focus on where they can't / don't and work from there. Be it a certain phone company or service, he would have known where information would have been safe and that is how he contacted who he needed to contact.

Julian Assange, the President of Ecuador, possibly Putin, and lord knows who else, he didn't luck into contact with these people. You don't just send an email to Wikileaks and they blindly set you up with travel protection from Ecuador. You don't just hang out in the Russian airport with an invalid passport, missing flights to Cuba, and not get hassled. You ever been there? Ask some of the Russians how it is playing out there. You ever exited Hong Kong (or any country) on an invalid passport? :1orglaugh Ain't gonna happen. Not in a million years. He made a plan, lined it all up, protected his ass, and now he's working the plan with the help of Wikileaks or whoever.

I would also like to think he is a smart guy. While there is no way to know his IQ, he is obviously street smart enough to do exactly what he is doing and not get caught. At least not yet anyway. The USA has FBI and CIA all over the world. They could scoop him up in an hour flat if they thought they could. But they haven't. For now, he has outsmarted them.

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger (Post 19686361)

I've never understood any of them to require obedience to unlawful orders. Either does the Army or Congress understand it that way. Illegality of orders is a complete defense in a court martial. The Uniform Code of Military Justice, a law passed by Congress and signed by President Truman, provides for that defense. Illegality can be based on the Constitution. Even statutes can be unconstitutional. If they are unconstitutional, they are invalid, void. The federal courts have recognized that since Marbury v. Madison early in the Nineteenth Century.

There is much virtue in what Snowden has done.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013...craig-roberts/

Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 19686163)

Um, yes, it is.

Hong Kong is one of the two Special Administrative Regions of the People's Republic of China, the other being Macau.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong

I find it interesting that he went to a country that has an entire section of it's military dedicated to hacking the US, and to a country where it's citizens have limited rights. Then he went to Russia, which was more of the same. Seems to me he is a spy who defected in a public way.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686354)

Yes, that is exactly what he said and that statement is huge. He said if he had the President's email, he had the authority and ability to access it. I highly doubt someone with that sort of security access is a schmuck.

Perhaps you and Rochard have the authority and ability to read Obama's email, and that's all just common lower level admin stuff, but that sounds like a big deal to me.

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 19686297)

But they are telling us that Americans aren't targeted, which I think we can all agree is bullshit by this point.

Also we are supposed to give up our right to privacy to be protected by big mom a govt. Yet the very fact that this system was in place and the govt was even warned about the Boston guys..

Yet they still were about to attack inside the US.

I'm supposed to go along with this shit for protection from the big bad evil terrorist.. Yet the govt seems unable to do that..

Once again, why are my rights violated if they can't even catch a few guys that should have been red flagged...

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686376)

very well could be. as mentioned, i'm new to international intrigue. :1orglaugh the only motivation i could brainstorm to explain his choosing those 2 nations over the myriad of others that don't have extradition in place is to show how easy it is to hopscotch around with sensitive data. he is certainly proving that is very very easy.

Originally Posted by Bman (Post 19686371)

tea tax bro

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger (Post 19686361)

I've taken that oath at least twelve times that I can remember. Enlistment in the Army, accepting a commission as an Army Officer, admission to the practice of law in about nine jurisdictions, and to take public office twice.

I've never understood any of them to require obedience to unlawful orders. Either does the Army or Congress understand it that way. Illegality of orders is a complete defense in a court martial. The Uniform Code of Military Justice, a law passed by Congress and signed by President Truman, provides for that defense. Illegality can be based on the Constitution. Even statutes can be unconstitutional. If they are unconstitutional, they are invalid, void. The federal courts have recognized that since Marbury v. Madison early in the Nineteenth Century.

There is much virtue in what Snowden has done.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013...craig-roberts/

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686376)

the only motivation i could brainstorm to explain his choosing those 2 nations over the myriad of others that don't have extradition in place is to show how easy it is to hopscotch around with sensitive data. he is certainly proving that is very very easy.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686402)

Crossing international borders is not something taken lightly these days, especially with a revoked passport. If you or I tried to leave any country in the world with an invalid passport, they wouldn't let us leave. In fact, we would probably be arrested on the spot and wouldn't be permitted to pass immigration and board the plane. The fact he made it to Russia and they are going to let him leave, is amazing.

You can't even get in and out of a shit hole like Cambodia these days without having a valid passport and giving a fingerprint scan. I honestly can't fathom how he is getting around with such a price on his head, unless he has help.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686402)

Crossing international borders is not something taken lightly these days, especially with a revoked passport. If you or I tried to leave any country in the world with an invalid passport, they wouldn't let us leave. In fact, we would probably be arrested on the spot and wouldn't be permitted to pass immigration and board the plane. The fact he made it to Russia and they are going to let him leave, is amazing.

You can't even get in and out of a shit hole like Cambodia these days without having a valid passport and giving a fingerprint scan. I honestly can't fathom how he is getting around with such a price on his head, unless he has help.

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19686384)

Again, I cannot understand why you accept everything this guy says as gospel. Perhaps you could explain just that part for now.

Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 19686396)

almost every revolution seems to start with a 'straw that broke the camels back'

might explain why Snowden is so important releasing info already released

Originally Posted by TheSquealer (Post 19686389)

When it comes to espionage, the first thing you should accept is that neither China, Russia or the USA for that matter are very forthright in their reporting to begin with. All that is known is what those governments want people to know (less so for the US in this case). There is virtually zero chance that either China or Russia let him do anything without first copying/recording/taking whatever intel he had to analyze. These aren't countries that give a shit about anyones rights.

All of what you are seeing is 100% politics from China and Russia. It has nothing to do with anyones rights, the rule of law or anything else. Its simply opportunity to gain and spend some political capital.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686409)

OK, so lets say he was lying. He didn't have such access and he was in fact a low level peon working for the NSA. Lets agree and just say he mopped the floors there, nothing more.

Then why all the fuss? What information could a janitor working at the NSA possibly have to cause all this international ruckus?

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686402)

Crossing international borders is not something taken lightly these days, especially with a revoked passport. If you or I tried to leave any country in the world with an invalid passport, they wouldn't let us leave. In fact, we would probably be arrested on the spot and wouldn't be permitted to pass immigration and board the plane. The fact he made it to Russia and they are going to let him leave, is amazing.

You can't even get in and out of a shit hole like Cambodia these days without having a valid passport and giving a fingerprint scan. I honestly can't fathom how he is getting around with such a price on his head, unless he has help.

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger (Post 19686361)

I've taken that oath at least twelve times that I can remember. Enlistment in the Army, accepting a commission as an Army Officer, admission to the practice of law in about nine jurisdictions, and to take public office twice.

I've never understood any of them to require obedience to unlawful orders. Either does the Army or Congress understand it that way. Illegality of orders is a complete defense in a court martial. The Uniform Code of Military Justice, a law passed by Congress and signed by President Truman, provides for that defense. Illegality can be based on the Constitution. Even statutes can be unconstitutional. If they are unconstitutional, they are invalid, void. The federal courts have recognized that since Marbury v. Madison early in the Nineteenth Century.

There is much virtue in what Snowden has done.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013...craig-roberts/

Originally Posted by TheSquealer (Post 19686408)

I dont believe you have to pass through Passport Control on a transient flight and technically are not entering the country.

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686418)

you're pretty convinced he didn't operate on his own accord eh? he has handlers dictating his every move?

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19686420)

Troll on.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686427)

For transit, you are correct, but will address that below in more detail. But his passport was revoked while in Hong Kong, which rendered him illegal instantly, then Ecuador stepped up and gave him refugee travel documents so he could leave. That within itself is incredible.

Regarding Russia, he has to have a Russian Transit Visa. They either issued one based on his now revolved passport, or they issued one on his refugee status. Either way, this is what you need:

1. Your original passport with at least 2 blank visa-designated pages (passport must be valid for at least 6 months after intended departure date from Russia).
2. Two copies of Russian visa application form, completed and signed.
3. Two passport-size photos signed on the back.
2. Visa to the country of destination, if required.
3. Tickets for the whole itinerary.

Which leads me back to my original point, one does not simply pick up the phone and demand refugee travel documents from Ecuador, or bypass Russian Transit Visa rules. That is almost unheard of. Which leads me to believe he is every bit what he says he is and knows every bit what he says he knows. Some low level NSA janitor would not get such treatment.

Originally Posted by TheSquealer (Post 19686433)

No. I don't believe anyone is dictating his every move. What i was saying before is that his "plan" might not have went much past "get to Hong Kong and do x". For example "you get to Hong Kong, bring this info and we'll give you $4,000,000.00 and guarantee your safety" - which very often then turns into "welcome, thanks for the stuff, we got some bad news for you,... funny story...". Remember the most important fact. The only leverage he has is against the USA and he played those cards all at once. To anyone else (China, Russia, Ecuador etc), he's just a tool to use until it has no use.

I don't think there is much point in reading into anything said or done. For Russia, China and Jullien Assange, It's all self serving theater. Much of the truth won't be known for years.

The only thing I will bet money on is that he will end up back in the US and be tried for what he's done. There is zero chance the government will let this go without a severe response.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686427)

For transit, you are correct, but will address that below in more detail. But his passport was revoked while in Hong Kong, which rendered him illegal instantly, then Ecuador stepped up and gave him refugee travel documents so he could leave. That within itself is incredible.

Regarding Russia, he has to have a Russian Transit Visa. They either issued one based on his now revolved passport, or they issued one on his refugee status. Either way, this is what you need:

1. Your original passport with at least 2 blank visa-designated pages (passport must be valid for at least 6 months after intended departure date from Russia).
2. Two copies of Russian visa application form, completed and signed.
3. Two passport-size photos signed on the back.
2. Visa to the country of destination, if required.
3. Tickets for the whole itinerary.

Which leads me back to my original point, one does not simply pick up the phone and demand refugee travel documents from Ecuador, or bypass Russian Transit Visa rules. That is almost unheard of. Which leads me to believe he is every bit what he says he is and knows every bit what he says he knows. Some low level NSA janitor would not get such treatment.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686434)

You asked me why I believe him so I dumbed it down as if he was lying and did not have the access he claims to have. So now I don't believe him and he is a low level admin, who probably isn't even very smart. That seems to be the common thread here so I'll roll with that. For all we know, that may be the truth.

So I ask again, why all the international fuss over someone who didn't have the kind of access and information he claims to have had?

Originally Posted by TheSquealer (Post 19686433)

The only thing I will bet money on is that he will end up back in the US and be tried for what he's done. There is zero chance the government will let this go without a severe response.

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686446)

handlers up to a point. this crossed my mind, he was selling the intel and got left hanging after they got the stuff. could be, i would not doubt that out of 25,000+ snoops with top secret security clearance that there has been intel sold. i'm having a hard time reconciling that with his behavior though........he then panicked and contacted the wp/telegraph? i guess eh. should be a pretty good movie! :1orglaugh

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19686456)

According to RT and Al Jazeera, he has not even come up to the gates to come in to Russia yet. He is hanging in the halls.

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19686456)

According to RT and Al Jazeera, he has not even come up to the gates to come in to Russia yet. He is hanging in the halls.



I would guess because they don't know what he stole and is carrying with him would be a major factor. And just because he did not have all the access he says he had does not mean that he did not have access to some stuff or [more likely] may have gained unauthorized access.

Oh, and wikileaks is who has set him up.

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686418)

you're pretty convinced he didn't operate on his own accord eh? he has handlers dictating his every move?

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 19686483)

He's a conspiracy guy.. There always has to be lizard people involved.

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19686456)

According to RT and Al Jazeera, he has not even come up to the gates to come in to Russia yet. He is hanging in the halls.

Originally Posted by theking (Post 19686425)

You are correct about your "understanding". It is my "understanding" that the three branches of government...with judicial over view in particular...determines what is within the constitution and what is not. It is my "understanding" that...at this point in time...the current actions of the NSA has been found to be within the constitution by all three branches of government.

Originally Posted by Bman (Post 19686417)

ding ding...I dont think we will see a typical war revolution but an idealogical shift:2 cents:

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger (Post 19686493)

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger (Post 19686493)

Issues of constitutionality and legality are litigated one case at a time, one issue at a time. Many of the issues Snowden raises, if not all of them, have never been litigated - because the extent of the surveillance was unknown, classified, protected by threats to prosecute anyone who might tell the American people what was going on. It was this kind of judicial oversight that the intelligence community was always afraid of, and it's why they engineered a system such as it is. Perhaps now cases and litigants can emerge, the programs can be examined in the full light of day, and the courts can determine whether our right to privacy has been violated without reasonable cause. It's about time that the government becomes accountable to the people and the people's courts that protect them.