And those people have been willing to go to prison or die for their belief in change. :2 cents:


:1orglaugh

They did not change anything simply by breaking the law.


:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh Obama Called ?Hypocrite Of The Century? In Irish Parliament

Not sure how you feel Assange, Manning or Snowden qualify. Please feel free to elaborate.

Are you suggesting that wiretaps are human rights violations?

:warning

Snowden 'is in Moscow airport transit zone'
Russian President Vladimir Putin says US whistleblower was still at Moscow airport, and was free to leave.

go on...........your naivete is precious!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...l-u.s-secrets/

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Talking about naive...

from your own quote ... after all, we know how accurate intel is from those agencies/dept .... :)

Everyone's reaction falls in line with their pre-existing opinions on government. The fact of the matter is that no one has shown anything illegally done. Just things people don't agree with and 99.9% of that is blown out of proportion because people don't understand all the details.

Its not much different to me than watching people support the PirateBay owners.

Notice no one wants to talk about the laws, what laws needs to be changed and has a clear idea of what needs to happen specifically to change current legislation. Thats how you know the reaction is emotional and not one of reason and logic. It's also how you know it will never change. Crying and whining isn't an effective rallying call to affect change.

... i mean... "I blame bush. That asshole. Fucking Patriot Act. Republican asshole dickheads"

the problem is Hastings.

i think we have the 'real powers' getting slapped around badly and why we're seeing 'unprecedented behaviours'

The way everything is progressing, we'll have a 'delidding' event shortly

umm, retard, the news report must include the word alleged. they are not the jury.

but thanks for reconfirming your lack of comprehension of complex topics.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

http://i.imgur.com/oTmrlVQ.gif

exactly fuckin-a right.

the hypocrisy re: china state secrets hacking is a perfect example. they knock our shit off left and right, we have strong evidence that they have hacked into boxes and stolen plans for 12 defense systems. they knock off everything from rolls royces to apple computers yet the poster earlier globs onto the word *alleged* in a newspaper article while he points his finger at the u.s.

that makes zero sense.

Shut up please Nsa

Amnesty International thinks so.

dope can fry your brain ...:2 cents:

So if China breaks the law it is OK to break it in return by doing the same thing, then say the law isn't being broken because they did it first? Come on.

The USA did the exact thing that would get you and I locked in a cell for a decade. They broke the law. The fact that China did it first carries no weight whatsoever. The USA is not China. And this is just one incident. There is no telling what else they have done and on what level.

You really mean to tell me that there are millions of Americans working for the various intelligence agencies and millions more working for law enforcement, and only one has the balls to come forward?

Really?

What are the odds?

As for the space race, well, if the race was to make it to space the Russians won. They were the first to launch a satellite into space, and the first to put a man in space. But the "space race" wasn't about who was first; If that was the case, the US wasn't even in the race. The space race is about space exploration, which was clearly and obviously dominated by the Americans. The US went all the way the moon - and back - multiple times! During the 1980s the US had the space shuttle program; Russia copied it and failed horribly.

What human rights violations? That one country spied on another? That one country hacked another country?

No agreement, no extradition:

http://translate.google.com/translat... 2F560331.html

http://translate.google.com/translat...ogilevich.html

http://translate.google.com/translat...35323%2F117367

Anyone with even a vague understanding of Intelligence understands full well that he didn't randomly come out in China. This is a major diplomatic minefield in a country that is known for putting bullets in prisoners heads to sell the organs on the open market. He did not do it without the complicity of the Chinese security services and government - at least in being assured that they would not detain him or turn him over. It's also not unrealistic to suspect he was compensated by the Chinese - when you look at the timing and the fact that Obama had been attacking China for their cyber attacks, stealing secrets etc. This was a big win for China. Think about this, about who he is... a low level contractor is accessible to foreign agents. An NSA / CIA employee... not so much. A low level contractor, easy to find. Easy to access. Easy to befriend. Easy to negotiate some terms.

China did it for political currency and to fire a shot. He had high level US intel on his person. There is can be little question as to whether or not it was also given to China. The US pressed China to turn him over - China fired back a safe, diplomatic response and in that time, he split. China is off the hook and accomplished a great deal with that little spectacle. And now he's in Russia. Russia never misses a chance to take the opposite side of the US and they too, are using him for political gain.

One thing that stood out to me as he was giving interviews from China was his exaggeration - that he could spy on the president if he wanted to and so on. A lot of that stuff seemed scripted by the Chinese to me. They couldn't have asked for a better show.

At the end of the day, what is fact is that this guy stole a bunch of data from the NSA, then went to a foreign, unfriendly country to share it with the world. His life is over no matter what. He will be in prison for the rest of his life as this can NEVER be tolerated by ANY government. Debating the law and changing the laws is a secondary issue to what he has done which is quite severe in ANY nation..

:)

Hero?

Not so much.

What is the cause? What is the message? What is the solution? What is surprising about the NSA being able to access phone records to see what phones called what phones? He will always be remembered as "that guy who..." because there is no message or course of action attached to it that people can identify with and get behind. Of course, this won't stop him from getting a Nobel Prize.. Obama got one for no reason at all, terrorists get them etc.

Wow!

Ok, let's do some simple math (simile for the rest of the World but not for you of course):

1. First satellite in the space - USSR
2. First live creature in the space - USSR
3. First man in the space - USSR
4. First woman in the space - USSR
5. First man outside of star ship in the space - USSR
6. First picture of the Moon's far side - USSR
7. First successful Moon landing - USSR
8. First man on the Moon - USA
9. First successful landing to another planet - USSR
10. First space station - USSR
11. Ten longest human space flights - Russia (5), USSR (4) and USA (1)
12. First man on another planet - ...pending...

Oh yeah, that must be an epic win for you and all other brainwashed population of your country. Congrats on winning the space race :thumbsup

i'm not the one pointing out the word alleged in a newspaper article as the be all-end all in understanding what's right and wrong here.

i'm also not the one looking at america in a vacuum and discounting the international espionage that happens globally and has since before america was even a country.

LOL, if it was the Ecuadorian cars at the airport picking him up he probably is in their Moscow embassy, if not I hoped he checked the drivers ID as he could be in Lubyanka learning how to water board.

I think technically if he was in transit and hopped in an Ecuadorian diplomatic vehicle he might be deemed not on russian soil, nor crossed their border. Certainly be the case once he gets to their embassy so that might be word play by the Russians.

you're smarter than this dwb. you know exactly what i am saying. and it is not, well, china started it so there.
the problem is massively complex, we live in a world where state secrets are tantamount to how shit gets done, i don't like it but it's reality.

nations exist, nations spy on each other, that's reality.

it's myopic to think that the usa should honor/award leakers in a time asa complex as this.

it seems very clear to me now that snowden had no plan whatsoever. now he is saying he he got the job at booz to specifically access and steal these documents. that's bullshit, this guy didn't know where he was going after hong kong, and has had to hit up wikileaks and ask them wtf do i do now.

this wasn't some master plan to martyr himself for the sake of personal rights.

With all due respect, it says that is the opinion of Widney; but even if Amnesty Intl thinks so, I give them as much credibility as the ACLU.

But for the sake of argument, what human rights violations did Snowden expose?

You don't think your government does the same? Think again.

Well, I would say that's unlikely given his intelligence and access to sensitive material and the nature of the work. "A plan" in the sense you are using it i believe is to change the world through a carefully calculated series of events. To me, "a plan" that is more likely is that some guy befriends him at a bar he goes to every Thursday night, builds rapport/trust and leads him into railing against the government and progressively gets him to open up more and more while that person reinforces the idea that these are outrageous abuses that must be stopped. Soon there's a mention of exposing data to the world... next thing you know, the guy announces he has a "friend" in China that can help, there is more discussion, some offer is made to him which is enticing enough that he woke up one morning and got on a plane. Once he was there, no choice was his anyway. Foreign governments like China or Russia don't really give a fuck about his personal concerns about his own government. They will use him, milk him dry and discard him when its politically convenient. This is why i say that ultimately, he will end up in a US prison. He is nothing more than political currency that everyone is trying to spend before it dries up. After that... who needs him? No one. He just becomes a thorn in the side of the host country and they'll sell him when the price is right. That price starts dropping pretty fast as the story cools.

You mean Germans spying over all the US citizens? I don't think so.

You think the US is spying over all the German citizens? I don't think so.

and thats where you are wrong - see "Tempora"

perhaps. although he hasn't struck me as being intelligent, i pretty much concluded he's not even really thinking through his actions. maybe someone at the bar coerced him, i wouldn't rule it out but i haven't thought that out entirely.

i don't see a smart person stealing state secrets and then taking those to 2, TWO, nations we are not aligned with and then trying to play the human rights card. if he were intelligent he would have gone straight to ecuador, a quick wiki read on assange would reveal that to anyone.

that is not the point - i wish people would actually read my posts...

i think it's done everywhere just on different technical levels. but that doesnt make any of this right.

it's just we are currently discussing a very specific case. Once we have a russian whistleblower we can discuss him as well.

:2 cents:

Yes it is. All traffic (including the German one) which is flowing via the USA is being tracked/spied by NSA. I do think so :2 cents:

I am not brain washed at all. The vast bulk of all of this technology came from Nazi Germany.

You can argue about who was first until you are blue in the face. But you are missing a lot of other US accomplishments:

1958:
First solar powered satellite
First communications satellite

1959:
First photograph of Earth from orbit
First satellite recovered intact from orbit

1962:
First orbital solar observatory
First active communications satellite

1963:
First reusable piloted spacecraft
First geosynchronous satellite
First satellite navigation system
First Mars flyby

1965:
14-day human spaceflight record

1966:
First spacecraft docking

1968:
First human-crewed spaceflight to, and orbit of, another celestial object: the Moon

1969:
First humans on the Moon
First space launch from another celestial body

1971:
First spacecraft to orbit another planet: Mars

1972:
First human-made object sent on escape trajectory away from the Sun

1973:
84-day human-crewed space record

Oh, and we went to the moon. A lot.


http://jlmoisey.com/wp-content/uploa...k-49807-lw.jpg

So everyone does it, but when the US does it it's bad?

I think my explanation explains that ;) - You don't steal state secrets from the US and run to Canada. You have to be somewhere where there is an interest in not being handed right back over or somewhere where you have those guarantees. We are not aligned with them politically which is precisely why this is important to them politically and why he has value both as a pawn and the intel he has as well has value to them. Where do you think a Russian agent is going to escape to with sensitive Russian state secrets? Ukraine? Probably he will run straight to the US or somewhere outside of their influence and somewhere where that nation has an interest in using him against his former country for political gain.

At the end of it all, he did what he was motivated to do. Motivated by who? By what? Those are the only questions that matter and most likely will come out when he is formally charged after an investigation is completed. At the end of it all, motivation is usually ego, power, fame/notoriety or money or any combination... and always disguised as some altruistic idea of justice/right and wrong.

BTW... its also insanely naive to think that China/Russia did not take any intel in his possession for analysis.

You seriously have no perspective on what the rest of the world thinks about the USA do you?lol

nothing can start a revolution and destroy a country more then a patriot...Snowden may be that patriot.:2 cents:

China and Russia just told the USA to go fuck themselves on the Snowden deal. The US citizens are being lied to and you fucking think the rest of the world is not gonna start standing up for themselves?

You don't think China and Russia have not analysed the situation and understand that this could be the tipping point on US imperialism?

But how is our government out line?

All of this is done by warrants issued by judges. Agency "x" believes that "mr x" is engaged in legal activity against the United States, gets a warrant from a judge, and then serves Google with a request for their data.

Most of this seems to have been done by local police departments for use in solving local crimes. Local police investigate a local crime - a murder, robbery, rape, disappearance - go to a local judge to a get a warrant to look at their phone records, email, Facebook, whatever. This is the way it's always been done.

There is nothing illegal so far.

Richard.

there IS NO WARRANTS

please read this. if you dispute it, find evidence and post it here

or ADMIT IT

well, the story was out though right? the guardian and the wp ran the story, it didn't matter where he was then, except usa or a non-aligned nation, either of those is not really thinking, you know what i mean?

here's a good blurb that better states it
moreover, it seems to me that goes not only to his lack of intelligence, but to his motivation as well, his exact words in the original telegraph interview:
so he jets to hong kong AND russia?

none of that adds up right?