My email response from Visa. I asked them, Why are you killing digital businesses? - GoFuckYourself.com

reddawg · 12-26-2002, 09:57 AM

Thank you for your message. For specific information or assistance of this
nature, please contact the financial institution with which you have your
merchant account using the address or telephone number on your Visa
statement. Your financial institution can address your inquiry.

You can also order the Chargeback Management Guide for Visa Merchants, by
visiting the merchant section of our website at:

http://usa.visa.com/business/merchan...ack_guide.html

Thank you for writing.

VISA Webmaster

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Somerby [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 00:35
To: [email protected]
Subject: Why are you killing Digital Companies?

To whom it may concern;

Why are you card companies killing the digital world, yes as in Porn.

If a customer complains or says I did not authorize it, you can't wait to
make us pay him/her back and for those of us who run afilliate programs,
this is very costly and many sites can't make it. It is ugly and unfair
that a bugger can buy a pass and months later make a complaint to you and
you refund their money and it is not as if they can return our products.

I wish you would institute a hell no policy! Such as the digital product
agreement act.
The porn card or visa digi cards could have a no refund disclaimer, unless
absolute proof of fraud or stolen cards were 100% provable.

I am an honest business man in the world of porn and it costs me alot to
refund as I pay my afilliates as well plus my merchant fees and this act of
freely refunded their money is killing many of us in this industry and I am
even considering giving up, nothing worse than finding out you got a
chargeback after nearly six months of service has been rendered.

It is so wrong when someone buys a pass and looks at what they wanted to
see and get their lust fullfilled and then turn around and chargeback, it
just is a rotten shame and if you pioneered new policies to prevent this we
in the Industry would be so happy and you would be the ultimate.

Thank you for your time.
Ken B. Somerby

Download this as a file

EscortBiz · 12-26-2002, 09:59 AM

does the guide rebill you monthly for updates?

reddawg · 12-26-2002, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EscortBiz
does the guide rebill you monthly for updates?

I sure the hell wouldn't buy it to find out and if I did, maybe I would chargeback on it after I read it,,,,,about a year later

Theo · 12-26-2002, 10:21 AM

i think when you deal with mainstream companies you should use the term adult entertainment hehe

Kimmykim · 12-26-2002, 10:25 AM

Visa doesn't care about porn. The % of their overall business that it makes up is NOT enough for them to give a rats ass if it stays or goes.

reddawg · 12-26-2002, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Visa doesn't care about porn. The % of their overall business that it makes up is NOT enough for them to give a rats ass if it stays or goes.

Do you think?

But it is to easy for all digital companies to get chargebacks as there is no tangible goods, the Internet is a digital world who doesn't deserve this.

Kimmykim · 12-26-2002, 11:05 AM

OH I know they don't care about porn. And they probably don't care much about soft goods online either, since I can't see it being a significant amount of their business, coupled with the fact that it's impossible to 'prove' delivery under their current set of standards.

xxxdesign-net · 12-26-2002, 11:23 AM

Visa cares about their users... not the marchants... and the more they get users, the more marchants will have to accept Visa...

By the way... it as nothing to do with the porn business.... with their new "Zero Liability" policy ....
http://www.usa.visa.com/personal/sec...h2_/index.html
Visa is giving a refund to anyone who is asking for it, on or offline...
Unless maybe you had something tangible shipped to you, and you signed something to receive the package...

xxxdesign-net · 12-26-2002, 11:28 AM

What they should do is give a refund the first time.... But also, change the credit card... since their credit card number was stolen right...? THat should takes couple of weeks... to receive the new card...

Should discourage some of them....!

UnseenWorld · 12-26-2002, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
i think when you deal with mainstream companies you should use the term adult entertainment hehe

I, too, don't think it wins over many people outside the industry to refer to our businesses as porn. And, in fact, I myself don't even think of what I produce as porn, but as content for "adult-oriented websites."

Now, however, if your site is devoted to people fucking goats...

PrettyCarla · 12-26-2002, 12:21 PM

Experience from few days ago:

We paid with Visa Card non-adult order from dvdempire.com (uses pswbilling.com as processor) in the middle of November. This $40 fee was deducted from appropiate account. But dvdempire is telling they got a message from PSWBilling there was some error with card and they did not receive any payment, at 22nd December, 40 days after transaction money still nowhere and dvdempire refuses to fullfill order. What is telling Visa to this situation? Money are at PSWBilling merchant account but we will gladly chargeback them if you give us order. What to do know? Charge back and possibly loose ability to pay with credit cards forever? Or keep $40 for defraudant no matter if it is Visa, PSWBilling or DVD Empire? What would you do on our place?

Chris Mallick · 12-26-2002, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
OH I know they don't care about porn. And they probably don't care much about soft goods online either, since I can't see it being a significant amount of their business, coupled with the fact that it's impossible to 'prove' delivery under their current set of standards.

I have three words for everyone: Verified by Visa.

This Visa Program for the Internet took effect in the EU Region of Visa this past April. It takes effect here in Visa USA April of 2003. Essentially it turns a card not present transaction, which are what all of ours are, into a card present transaction. It is fairly complicated to explain ? pretty simply to use.

A merchant (or in our case an IPSP) has to buy software and hardware that is certified by Visa. This is called a Merchant Plug In. EPOCH has had this installed and certified since August. It is tested and it works.

When a cardholder joins a site, they will be prompted for a pass phrase. This is something the cardholder has to do with his / her issuing bank. It is NOT required, yet, by issuing banks to register their cardholders. It is up to the banks.

IF the cardholder has registered the card with their bank, then a 3 party transaction occurs (cardholder / third party processor / Visa): The session is turned over to an unrelated processor and that processor gets the cardholder pass phrase and verifies it through a system at Visa so that all three of those parties KNOW that it is the registered cardholder using the card for that transaction. IF the transaction is one whereby the cardholder is registered and the pass phrase does not match, then the transaction is declined. If not, then it is completed.

Here are the benefits:
1. It is fast? no balk time.
2. As long as we, the merchant, have the plug in (and we do), we have chargeback protection for the most common reason code ?It wasn?t me.?
3. If the bank is registering and the cardholder has not, too bad for the cardholder ? they eat the transaction ? no chargeback rights for ?it wasn?t me?.
4. It finally makes cardholders responsible for their purchases and a code is added to the transaction which makes it impossible for the Issuing banks to just chargeback transactions because they are marked High Risk and Internet.

There are drawbacks as well:
1. The economic loss is on the Issuing bank ? not us, however the chargeback can still count against our ratios.
2. This is friendly fraud protection only. Webmasters have to make sure proper disclosure is there. A cardholder can?t deny he / she bought the content, but they can say they were billed unfairly or the content was not as promised.
3. This adds costs to IPSP?s like EPOCH. Our rates will not go up when this starts.

Friendly Fraud has cost EPOCH and Webmasters millions over the years. This helps somewhat. Moreover, it shows that someone is listening at Visa and is trying to give the digital world some tools.

It?s not much, but it beats the past.

Chris
CEO EPOCH

PS: The Team at EPOCH will be at InterNeXt 2003 - in force - to answer all of your questions and to unveil an exciting new product. Register for our Press Release of January 6, 2003 at www.epassporte.com and visit us at Booth 204 in Vegas.
Happy New Year GFY?ers!

Techie Media · 12-26-2002, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
i think when you deal with mainstream companies you should use the term adult entertainment hehe

I would have to agree with this statement, ...The term "Porn" has a negative stigma to it, the term "Aduld Entertainment", is a much better term to use.

Melody · 12-26-2002, 01:09 PM

Kimmy's right, as usual.

All we can do to fight back is protect our password systems, produce content the customer wants (and can't get anywhere else), and raise the price as the degree of fraud goes up. Pretty soon, the surfer will figure out if he charges back, he'll end up paying more for what he really does want.

Of course, finding some road around the numbnuts at Visa would also be good for business. Digital wampum, anyone?

Kimmykim · 12-26-2002, 02:01 PM

Chris,
You know I love ya, but verified, unverified, first born children's umbilical cord sent via the internet, you know that Visa doesn't really give a fuck. They don't have to...

I had an interesting conversation with someone at Fays show in November -- and I'm inclined to agree with them -- let Visa pull the plug sooner rather than later -- the business won't go away, people will still be paying for porn. Before there was Visa on the internet people did it, and after it's gone people will do it. Something will take its' place. And no, I don't count on Paypal as a payment method because Visa and MC still control them just as much as they do you guys.

What would *I* personally like to see from processors? More non Visa, non Mastercard, regional type options -- JCB, Eurodebit, Canada's Interact, etc -- I realize that it's costly to put alot of the smaller systems in place, especially when you look at the immediate ROI -- however, for foreign clients it seems to be a great alternative to Visa/Mastercard -- less of an issue with cdc, less of an issue with fraud or scrubbing, and more flexibility for the clients.

Chris Mallick · 12-26-2002, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Chris,
You know I love ya, but verified, unverified, first born children's umbilical cord sent via the internet, you know that Visa doesn't really give a fuck. They don't have to...

I had an interesting conversation with someone at Fays show in November -- and I'm inclined to agree with them -- let Visa pull the plug sooner rather than later -- the business won't go away, people will still be paying for porn. Before there was Visa on the internet people did it, and after it's gone people will do it. Something will take its' place. And no, I don't count on Paypal as a payment method because Visa and MC still control them just as much as they do you guys.

What would *I* personally like to see from processors? More non Visa, non Mastercard, regional type options -- JCB, Eurodebit, Canada's Interact, etc -- I realize that it's costly to put alot of the smaller systems in place, especially when you look at the immediate ROI -- however, for foreign clients it seems to be a great alternative to Visa/Mastercard -- less of an issue with cdc, less of an issue with fraud or scrubbing, and more flexibility for the clients.

And I love you too.... But in a good, healthy way

I agree with your point. There are a bunch of "alternative methods" out there, some of which work well.

We are working on a hybrid, to be released at the show. If you give me a Blackjack lesson I may leak it to you. But ONLY you.

C

UnseenWorld · 12-26-2002, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Chris,
You know I love ya, but verified, unverified, first born children's umbilical cord sent via the internet, you know that Visa doesn't really give a fuck. They don't have to...

I had an interesting conversation with someone at Fays show in November -- and I'm inclined to agree with them -- let Visa pull the plug sooner rather than later -- the business won't go away, people will still be paying for porn. Before there was Visa on the internet people did it, and after it's gone people will do it. Something will take its' place. And no, I don't count on Paypal as a payment method because Visa and MC still control them just as much as they do you guys.

What would *I* personally like to see from processors? More non Visa, non Mastercard, regional type options -- JCB, Eurodebit, Canada's Interact, etc -- I realize that it's costly to put alot of the smaller systems in place, especially when you look at the immediate ROI -- however, for foreign clients it seems to be a great alternative to Visa/Mastercard -- less of an issue with cdc, less of an issue with fraud or scrubbing, and more flexibility for the clients.

I agree for the most part. Putting up a site people want to subscribe to and don't feel cheated by is #1. Whenever anyone poses those pages with all the pirated passwords, I see that lots of sites are totally "me-too" with nothing of their own, nothing original, no organizaing "concept," and no reason NOT to go somewhere else.

GloBill allows you to accept a number of European cards that I don't thing iBill, CCBill, and the others offer.

I'm waiting for the industry biggies to get together and form a credit card company, but I also hope they devise a way to keep out the operators who have been getting us in trouble with VISA and MC. And it MUST NOT be named anything like Porn Card. It needs to be named something which, if it fell out of someone's wallet when he pulled his driver's license out, wouldn't embarrass him. Of course, maybe VISA and MC could set up specialized divisions and put out such a card as well.

Kimmykim · 12-26-2002, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

And I love you too.... But in a good, healthy way

We are working on a hybrid, to be released at the show. If you give me a Blackjack lesson I may leak it to you. But ONLY you.

C

Wow, you love me, you really really love me! ;-}}}}

Don't split aces into a ten, the odds are 9:5 AGAINST pulling out more from it than by hitting the aces. I'll show you in Vegas...

Chris Mallick · 12-27-2002, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

Wow, you love me, you really really love me! ;-}}}}

Don't split aces into a ten, the odds are 9:5 AGAINST pulling out more from it than by hitting the aces. I'll show you in Vegas...

Aces and Eights; always slipt, I thought. What about the odds of splitting 8's into a 10? s shit hands, right? Now my world is upsidedown!

And yes, it is REAL.

Paul Markham · 12-27-2002, 09:00 AM

The CC companies have to get together to do something about fraud. Both when the card is used in a shop and over the phone or net.

The technology is there, but is there the will to use it?

They could have produced cards with your photo on years ago and did not.

andi_germany · 12-27-2002, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

I have three words for everyone: Verified by Visa.

This Visa Program for the Internet took effect in the EU Region of Visa this past April. It takes effect here in Visa USA April of 2003. Essentially it turns a card not present transaction, which are what all of ours are, into a card present transaction. It is fairly complicated to explain ? pretty simply to use.

A merchant (or in our case an IPSP) has to buy software and hardware that is certified by Visa. This is called a Merchant Plug In. EPOCH has had this installed and certified since August. It is tested and it works.

When a cardholder joins a site, they will be prompted for a pass phrase. This is something the cardholder has to do with his / her issuing bank. It is NOT required, yet, by issuing banks to register their cardholders. It is up to the banks.

IF the cardholder has registered the card with their bank, then a 3 party transaction occurs (cardholder / third party processor / Visa): The session is turned over to an unrelated processor and that processor gets the cardholder pass phrase and verifies it through a system at Visa so that all three of those parties KNOW that it is the registered cardholder using the card for that transaction. IF the transaction is one whereby the cardholder is registered and the pass phrase does not match, then the transaction is declined. If not, then it is completed.

Here are the benefits:
1. It is fast? no balk time.
2. As long as we, the merchant, have the plug in (and we do), we have chargeback protection for the most common reason code ?It wasn?t me.?
3. If the bank is registering and the cardholder has not, too bad for the cardholder ? they eat the transaction ? no chargeback rights for ?it wasn?t me?.
4. It finally makes cardholders responsible for their purchases and a code is added to the transaction which makes it impossible for the Issuing banks to just chargeback transactions because they are marked High Risk and Internet.

There are drawbacks as well:
1. The economic loss is on the Issuing bank ? not us, however the chargeback can still count against our ratios.
2. This is friendly fraud protection only. Webmasters have to make sure proper disclosure is there. A cardholder can?t deny he / she bought the content, but they can say they were billed unfairly or the content was not as promised.
3. This adds costs to IPSP?s like EPOCH. Our rates will not go up when this starts.

Friendly Fraud has cost EPOCH and Webmasters millions over the years. This helps somewhat. Moreover, it shows that someone is listening at Visa and is trying to give the digital world some tools.

It?s not much, but it beats the past.

Chris
CEO EPOCH

PS: The Team at EPOCH will be at InterNeXt 2003 - in force - to answer all of your questions and to unveil an exciting new product. Register for our Press Release of January 6, 2003 at www.epassporte.com and visit us at Booth 204 in Vegas.
Happy New Year GFY?ers!

I think you just forgot to state the worst disadvantage

NO MORE REBILLS!!!!!!!!!!!

Who cares about the couple of chargebacks if we cannot rebill the customer.

Kimmykim · 12-27-2002, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

Aces and Eights; always slipt, I thought. What about the odds of splitting 8's into a 10? s shit hands, right? Now my world is upsidedown!

And yes, it is REAL.

Your changes of busting drawing on the pair of 8's is greater than your chances of not at least winning one of the hands and coming up even, additional splits and doubles not included in the odds.

Now show me some secrets baby!

Chris Mallick · 12-27-2002, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by andi_germany

I think you just forgot to state the worst disadvantage

NO MORE REBILLS!!!!!!!!!!!

Who cares about the couple of chargebacks if we cannot rebill the customer.

Not true. Rebills stay the same. If the cardhodler was Verified by Visa then the recurring will be as well. But then we get back to giving good, visable, true disclosure, good quality and ever changing content.

I think it is s good thing and that the bottom line, profits and retention of your Members will increase.

I know I will get slammed by saying this... but I think that everyone needs to start thinking about retention times (it was 5 or 6 months, now 2 or so months...) instaed of sign ups that don't or won't convert. The long term players want a Member that joins, stays, does not ask for credit and does not chargeback. That requires good pricing, honest disclosure, great content and a good billing company (like EPOCH or CCBill) that provides good customer service and helful agents that know how to keep money, not credit everyone with a pulse our of fear.

What are your credits and chargebacks in dollars? Subtract those from your sales. At the end of the year that is your adjusted gross. That, imo, is what matters, if you are a paysite owner.

But what do I know....

Kimmy... call me when you are back to things....

C

reddawg · 12-27-2002, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

I have three words for everyone: Verified by Visa.

This Visa Program for the Internet took effect in the EU Region of Visa this past April. It takes effect here in Visa USA April of 2003. Essentially it turns a card not present transaction, which are what all of ours are, into a card present transaction. It is fairly complicated to explain ? pretty simply to use.

A merchant (or in our case an IPSP) has to buy software and hardware that is certified by Visa. This is called a Merchant Plug In. EPOCH has had this installed and certified since August. It is tested and it works.

When a cardholder joins a site, they will be prompted for a pass phrase. This is something the cardholder has to do with his / her issuing bank. It is NOT required, yet, by issuing banks to register their cardholders. It is up to the banks.

IF the cardholder has registered the card with their bank, then a 3 party transaction occurs (cardholder / third party processor / Visa): The session is turned over to an unrelated processor and that processor gets the cardholder pass phrase and verifies it through a system at Visa so that all three of those parties KNOW that it is the registered cardholder using the card for that transaction. IF the transaction is one whereby the cardholder is registered and the pass phrase does not match, then the transaction is declined. If not, then it is completed.

Here are the benefits:
1. It is fast? no balk time.
2. As long as we, the merchant, have the plug in (and we do), we have chargeback protection for the most common reason code ?It wasn?t me.?
3. If the bank is registering and the cardholder has not, too bad for the cardholder ? they eat the transaction ? no chargeback rights for ?it wasn?t me?.
4. It finally makes cardholders responsible for their purchases and a code is added to the transaction which makes it impossible for the Issuing banks to just chargeback transactions because they are marked High Risk and Internet.

There are drawbacks as well:
1. The economic loss is on the Issuing bank ? not us, however the chargeback can still count against our ratios.
2. This is friendly fraud protection only. Webmasters have to make sure proper disclosure is there. A cardholder can?t deny he / she bought the content, but they can say they were billed unfairly or the content was not as promised.
3. This adds costs to IPSP?s like EPOCH. Our rates will not go up when this starts.

Friendly Fraud has cost EPOCH and Webmasters millions over the years. This helps somewhat. Moreover, it shows that someone is listening at Visa and is trying to give the digital world some tools.

It?s not much, but it beats the past.

Chris
CEO EPOCH

PS: The Team at EPOCH will be at InterNeXt 2003 - in force - to answer all of your questions and to unveil an exciting new product. Register for our Press Release of January 6, 2003 at www.epassporte.com and visit us at Booth 204 in Vegas.
Happy New Year GFY?ers!

Sounds like a good plan......Do you work with AVS companies?
Could my programmer write a moduel to run off your billing company?

psyko514 · 12-27-2002, 03:57 PM

reddawg: did you even bother to read the other thread you started concerning this?
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...threadid=96158

read it.

VISA LOSES MONEY ON CHARGEBACKS TOO.

you wanna know where the biggest part of the problem lies? your processor (i know i'm going to get bitched at for this).

at least 75% of chargebacks are from people who don't recognize the transaction on their bill. they sign up at bigfatbitches.com and then see ibillcs.com or paycom on their statement and get all confused. and now, with the new descriptors, it's getting worse.

another 10% comes from people who aren't clear on how to cancel, or their subscription isn't properly cancelled despite confirmation emails/numbers being issued.

reddawg · 12-27-2002, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514
reddawg: did you even bother to read the other thread you started concerning this?
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...threadid=96158

read it.

VISA LOSES MONEY ON CHARGEBACKS TOO.

you wanna know where the biggest part of the problem lies? your processor (i know i'm going to get bitched at for this).

at least 75% of chargebacks are from people who don't recognize the transaction on their bill. they sign up at bigfatbitches.com and then see ibillcs.com or paycom on their statement and get all confused. and now, with the new descriptors, it's getting worse.

another 10% comes from people who aren't clear on how to cancel, or their subscription isn't properly cancelled despite confirmation emails/numbers being issued.

Yes, but he is very clear on who we are and says he didn't do it and ain't getting the service and so on and I have written him and tried to help resolve this, but he does not answer my email.

psyko514 · 12-27-2002, 04:09 PM

he's pulling cardholder fraud, and it's nearly impossible to prove.
it's called innocent until proven guilty, it has nothing to do with Visa "killing digital business".
prove that he did in fact sign up and visit the site, and you'll win the chargeback. good luck.

Kimmykim · 12-27-2002, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514
they sign up at bigfatbitches.com and then see ibillcs.com or paycom on their statement and get all confused. and now, with the new descriptors, it's getting worse.

Hahaha, I think you're forgetting something here buddy...

The guys wife who opens up a cc statement and sees a charge to bigfatbitches.com is an instant credit or chargeback. Third party is not the problem here.

Dravyk · 12-27-2002, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnseenWorld

GloBill allows you to accept a number of European cards that I don't thing iBill, CCBill, and the others offer.

Tom, who else does Glo-Bill process for?

On their website they only list "the usual": Visa, Mastercard, checkcards, Discover, Eurocard, JCB, Diners cards and Electronic Checks

Thanks!

psyko514 · 12-28-2002, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

Hahaha, I think you're forgetting something here buddy...

The guys wife who opens up a cc statement and sees a charge to bigfatbitches.com is an instant credit or chargeback. Third party is not the problem here.

That wasn't quite my point. Processors need to make it more evident who the person will be billed by, and they need to provide a clear, easily accesible link to cancel. None of this "Click here to read the Terms and Conditions" and then a checkbox confirming they did.
My members are clear from the get-go who's charging them, what it'll look like on their statement, and they're offered a clear, unhidden link to cancel. That drastically cut my chargeback rate.

As for the descriptors, that confuses people even more. I had a cardholder who was a regular porn site subscriber, so he knew who ccBill was. But he had no idea who "ccBill - Dugmor" was when he signed up for one of the JoinRightNow sites.

NETbilling · 12-28-2002, 03:08 AM

Hi All,

Verfied by Visa and Mastercard's solution is viable and Netbilling has been testing as well. However, unless it is required by the issuing banks that their cardholders use it, they won't. Why? Because if a cardholder know they have no liability if they do not use that pin code, they won't. For this to be successful, it must be mandnatory. Also, it won't do squat for rebill or misrepresented content as Chris stated above. This solution is by no means as great as some think it will be.... although I hope it turns out that way.

Be sure to come by booth #401 at Internext

Thank you, Mitch Farber

Chris Mallick · 12-28-2002, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514

That wasn't quite my point. Processors need to make it more evident who the person will be billed by, and they need to provide a clear, easily accesible link to cancel. None of this "Click here to read the Terms and Conditions" and then a checkbox confirming they did.
My members are clear from the get-go who's charging them, what it'll look like on their statement, and they're offered a clear, unhidden link to cancel. That drastically cut my chargeback rate.

As for the descriptors, that confuses people even more. I had a cardholder who was a regular porn site subscriber, so he knew who ccBill was. But he had no idea who "ccBill - Dugmor" was when he signed up for one of the JoinRightNow sites.

Again, as KK points out, third party is not the problem. EPOCH sends email confirmations to all subscribers. The Join Form and Approval pages show ?you will be billed by Paycom.net*XXXXXX? The disclosure is there; it?s the wife opening the bill that is the problem. It is the buyer?s remorse. It is the same old shit and it won?t change until Verified by Visa (Mitch I am going to post a reply to yours in a minute) starts. It is the only way to stop the ?It wasn?t me?? reason code or ?friendly fraud?. Or, if a card is used that the buyer?s identity is masked so he / she doesn?t have to worry about being busted by someone else opening the mail. More on that later.

EPOCH is putting together a Greatest Hits CD of calls we have received over the years at our Call Center in LA. We have over 100 Customer Service Reps, 24 / 7 answering calls in 20 languages. We hear things you would not believe as excuses. In my opinion, the best way to fight this kind of thing is to take away the reasons for charging back or asking for credits. That comes back to quality and disclosure.

Chris
CEO EPOCH

Chris Mallick · 12-28-2002, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by netbilling
Hi All,

Verfied by Visa and Mastercard's solution is viable and Netbilling has been testing as well. However, unless it is required by the issuing banks that their cardholders use it, they won't. Why? Because if a cardholder know they have no liability if they do not use that pin code, they won't. For this to be successful, it must be mandnatory. Also, it won't do squat for rebill or misrepresented content as Chris stated above. This solution is by no means as great as some think it will be.... although I hope it turns out that way.

Be sure to come by booth #401 at Internext

Thank you, Mitch Farber

Mitch:

Verified by Visa (?V by V?) gives us economic protection against chargebacks starting April 2003 if we are compliant and have installed the Merchant Plug In. We have. At that point, we have to attempt to verify. If we are the only one ?playing? so to speak, of the 3 parties involved (Merchant / Cardholder / Issuing Banks, through their Access Control Server) we still get the protection. Again, if the Merchant is compliant and attempts, the protection is there.

I think that Issuing Banks will require their cardholders to register sooner rather than later for this for 2 important reasons:

1. The Issuer can?t make the Merchant eat the charge if they are not V by V compliant.
2. Issuers can charge cardholders $2 or more per year for the ?service?. Actually they can force feed the charge.

AOL is promoting V by V. Wells Fargo, Chase, BofA, MBNA; all of the big Issuers are starting a push. The last time I checked, 10 million US cardholders were registered, a drop in the bucket, but better than nothing. In the EU this has been working for about 9 months and the Online Merchants are having great success.

So to my understanding the economics will drive Issuers to register, thus dragging cardholders. Then it is up to Merchants to spend the money, certify and use V by V. EPOCH is all over this. We think it will save our Webmasters millions a year.

Again, we also think that the ?It wasn?t me?? friendly fraud will go away for a time and then it will migrate, as the cardholders will likely figure other ways around the requirement to pay. EPOCH is working on a solution for that as well.

Chris
CEO EPOCH

Unleash_Hell · 12-28-2002, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick
EPOCH is putting together a Greatest Hits CD of calls we have received over the years

that'll be depressing..

Chris Mallick · 12-28-2002, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Unleash_Hell

that'll be depressing..

NO! It will be funny as hell. Interesting and educational. The "Feel Good Hit of the Year".

p1mpdogg · 12-28-2002, 08:08 AM

EPOCH 4 LIFE

corvette · 12-28-2002, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick
EPOCH is putting together a Greatest Hits CD of calls we have received over the years at our Call Center in LA.

psyko514 · 12-28-2002, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick
Again, as KK points out, third party is not the problem. EPOCH sends email confirmations to all subscribers. The Join Form and Approval pages show ?you will be billed by Paycom.net*XXXXXX? The disclosure is there; it?s the wife opening the bill that is the problem. It is the buyer?s remorse. It is the same old shit and it won?t change until Verified by Visa (Mitch I am going to post a reply to yours in a minute) starts. It is the only way to stop the ?It wasn?t me?? reason code or ?friendly fraud?. Or, if a card is used that the buyer?s identity is masked so he / she doesn?t have to worry about being busted by someone else opening the mail. More on that later.

Look, I work as a customer service agent for Visa, so I'm just pulling this shit out of my ass. I agree that there is friendly fraud going on, but it doesn't constitute for the majority of chargebacks.

Do you think people are reading the full page when they sign up for a porn site? Their keen on getting their rocks off, so they rush through the form. Maybe they see a little line that says "'PAYCOM.NET *Whatever' will appear on your cardholder statement", but where is that little line placed? A few lines below the "JOIN" button, and off screen so that they half to scroll past the "JOIN" button. On top of that, the join page URL doesn't even contain Paycom.

So there's a slight chance that the surfer knows he'll be billed by Paycom. If, buy any chance, he has seen that little line, he'll almost certainly forget 1, 2 or 3 months later when he looks at his statement.

When I get someone who calls me and says they don't recognize iBill, ccBill, Paycom, etc., I tell them to visit the website, use the check a charge form, and see what it is for.
The majority (75%) don't call back. I've had several people do it while they talk to me and all I hear is "Oh yeah, I remember that", or "Oh, that must be my husband/daughter/roommate". When they say the latter, I note their account accodringly, and advise them they can't chargeback.
The rest that do call back must send a letter to dispute further. Only about half do.

And for the person who suggested reporting their card as lost, our policy is to do it if their are 3 or more charges they don't recognize. As for the new card taking weeks to get, that's bullshit.
I can get a new card to someone as quick as the same day if they need it, or within two business days.

multisexsite · 12-28-2002, 11:55 AM

I think I'm gonna get a VISA with a 10k limit, have my friend go buy me about 5 laptops, and say the card use wasnt authorized.

Anyone need a laptop?

psyko514 · 12-28-2002, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by multisexsite
I think I'm gonna get a VISA with a 10k limit, have my friend go buy me about 5 laptops, and say the card use wasnt authorized.

Anyone need a laptop?

You joke about it, but that's a very easy way to pull fraud. Get a friend to do it with his signature or a made up one and if the merchant doesn't check to see if it matches the card, they'll lose the cash when the report it as fraud.

Two things though. If the merchant has hidden cameras, a warrant will be put out for your friend's arrest.
Also, for a transaction that large, they might ask for some valid ID, and they might also call Visa to make sure the information you're friend gives them corresponds with what Visa has (name, address, etc)

Chris Mallick · 12-28-2002, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by psyko514

Look, I work as a customer service agent for Visa, so I'm just pulling this shit out of my ass. I agree that there is friendly fraud going on, but it doesn't constitute for the majority of chargebacks.

Do you think people are reading the full page when they sign up for a porn site? Their keen on getting their rocks off, so they rush through the form. Maybe they see a little line that says "'PAYCOM.NET *Whatever' will appear on your cardholder statement", but where is that little line placed? A few lines below the "JOIN" button, and off screen so that they half to scroll past the "JOIN" button. On top of that, the join page URL doesn't even contain Paycom.

So there's a slight chance that the surfer knows he'll be billed by Paycom. If, buy any chance, he has seen that little line, he'll almost certainly forget 1, 2 or 3 months later when he looks at his statement.

When I get someone who calls me and says they don't recognize iBill, ccBill, Paycom, etc., I tell them to visit the website, use the check a charge form, and see what it is for.
The majority (75%) don't call back. I've had several people do it while they talk to me and all I hear is "Oh yeah, I remember that", or "Oh, that must be my husband/daughter/roommate". When they say the latter, I note their account accodringly, and advise them they can't chargeback.
The rest that do call back must send a letter to dispute further. Only about half do.

And for the person who suggested reporting their card as lost, our policy is to do it if their are 3 or more charges they don't recognize. As for the new card taking weeks to get, that's bullshit.
I can get a new card to someone as quick as the same day if they need it, or within two business days.

I know what you are saying. As for Paycom, our name is prominently displayed, several places. But, as you said, these people are going blind from looking at the screen while? well you know?

So the answer is what? We do the best we can with what we have. We remind people too that call our Center. The toll free is right on that statement that they are looking at, so we are making ourselves available.

I am always up for constructive suggestions. Unfortunately we are kind of screwed by the rules that you employer puts out there. I mean it is really nice as a cardholder to know I am protected from unauthorized transactions. But it is another thing for Visa to advertise on the Olympics that you can buy online and just decide not to pay. ?Zero Liability? they call it, I think. I mean what?s a Webmaster to do to fight that? That?s why I say V by V is at least something.

C

Raven · 12-28-2002, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xxxdesign-net
Visa cares about their users... not the marchants... and the more they get users, the more marchants will have to accept Visa...

By the way... it as nothing to do with the porn business.... with their new "Zero Liability" policy ....
http://www.usa.visa.com/personal/sec...h2_/index.html
Visa is giving a refund to anyone who is asking for it, on or offline...
Unless maybe you had something tangible shipped to you, and you signed something to receive the package...

VISA wants it both ways....they give the user zero liability, while, at the same time, lobby for legislation that makes bankrupting your credit cards more difficult....

andi_germany · 12-28-2002, 04:06 PM

The real problem is that someone claims fraudulent usage gets a chargeback and still uses the card. Most of the time they don't block that credit card for further usage and issue a new one. Why is that? sure they know the reason for the chargeback but they still do it anyway.

Kimmykim · 12-28-2002, 04:19 PM

Friendly fraud is rampant, I'd guess it is probably the single most important factor in chargebacks.

Most porn surfers in this day and age are not stupid, they understand it is either cancel or be rebilled -- that is the reason SO many surfers cancel immediately -- they never even look at the members area until after they have cancelled.

Hell, even my 11 year old can explain what a free porn tour is versus signing up for something, much to my surprise and dismay over this holiday.

eRock · 12-28-2002, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Visa doesn't care about porn. The % of their overall business that it makes up is NOT enough for them to give a rats ass if it stays or goes.

The millions of $$$ made every year from Internet porn & they don't care about all the money they make from them!? I find that VERY hard to believe. If all the sudden all the porn sites stopped using CC as the way to access the member's area, I think that'd put a pretty hefty dent in to the CC's bank accounts. I'd bet they'd be kissin' our ass then!

Kimmykim · 12-28-2002, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eRock

The millions of $$$ made every year from Internet porn & they don't care about all the money they make from them!? I find that VERY hard to believe. If all the sudden all the porn sites stopped using CC as the way to access the member's area, I think that'd put a pretty hefty dent in to the CC's bank accounts. I'd bet they'd be kissin' our ass then!

They'd never even notice it. It's like having a hundred dollar bill and losing a penny, to make it into an analogy that doesn't have so many zeros on one figure that you don't get it.

eRock · 12-28-2002, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

They'd never even notice it. It's like having a hundred dollar bill and losing a penny, to make it into an analogy that doesn't have so many zeros on one figure that you don't get it.

I don't believe it. It's gotta be noticeable.

Kimmykim · 12-28-2002, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eRock

I don't believe it. It's gotta be noticeable.

You don't have to believe it.

If it's so unbelievable, then why would Visa continue to restrict and restrict and restrict? They've surely chopped the transactions by a third, and that doesn't seem to be bothering them... if it's such a big deal wouldn't they already be feeling it?

I mean shoot, if you only got a hundred bucks and you lose a twenty or two, you know it right?

Chris Mallick · 12-28-2002, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

You don't have to believe it.

If it's so unbelievable, then why would Visa continue to restrict and restrict and restrict? They've surely chopped the transactions by a third, and that doesn't seem to be bothering them... if it's such a big deal wouldn't they already be feeling it?

I mean shoot, if you only got a hundred bucks and you lose a twenty or two, you know it right?

Visa did $2.4 billion (with a ?B?) in 2002 sales, so far. Internet Porn, not to be confused with the Porn paid for with Visa cards in hotels (pay per view movies) and other forms (sex shops, etc) is less than 2% of their transaction volume. It is a lot of money, but KK is exactly right, who cares? Take 2% of anyone?s business and they would not care. They may not like it, but it won?t put them out of business. If it did, they were dead man walking already.

This is the kicker?Visa is a ?not for profit association?. They are owned by their Members, which are banks. In 2002 Visa, the ?not for profit association? realized $500 million in ?operating revenue. We, in the real world, call that profit. They don?t, they call it advertising money to ?build the brand?. They have to spend the cash. They have done one helluva job ?building the brand? with all of that money. And that effort and money spent has put money in all of our pockets. So give the Devil his due. If not for Visa and MasterCard, this industry would not have grown to this level this fast. True, another method would have come about, but Visa was there, then and we all profited by them being there, then.

Face it; Visa is 60+% of our business. We are 2% of theirs. We HAVE to make a profit and we NEED them. They don?t have to make anything and could care less about the revenue we generate. So we play by their rules or they take their ball and go home. The trick is to CHANGE the game! More on that later? January 6th.

What Visa does care about is ?Acceptance?. They want their cardholders to be able to use their Visa everywhere. Their slogan is ?Visa, it?s everywhere you want to be.? That includes the Internet and the Porn sites on it - us, in other words. So they allow us to operate, but they control what WAS rampant fraud. When this industry started we had the same thresholds (which were - none) that everyone else had. The industry screwed it up. Those wanting to make as much as they could as fast as they could just screwed it up. I assume back then everyone just thought this Internet thing was a flash in the pan and did whatever to make money. Low and behold 6 or 7 years later most are still round, all are more sophisticated and now we bitch about ?rules?. Audiotext went through the same evolution. There are now only 2 points of entry into the Visa system for all of US Audiotext. There used to be 100?s. Visa chose to fight the fraud in that space by limiting those allowed to process. They are doing the same in our space with the IPSP rules. They are not enforcing them 100% yet, but they will be soon. Ron Cadwell at CCBill can back me up here: When Visa does enforce the rules worldwide; the points of entry will decrease again.

Everyone on this board knows that fraud in the credit card industry is tried out online first nowadays. It is fast, anonymous and proves if a card is good right away. Some people reading this board perpetrate (or have in the past known someone that has perpetrated) this type of fraud and other types, more subtle, like just banging the shit out of a card number to earn a sign up fee or whatever. So the rules, the tightening of Visa policy, all that is a direct result of fraud on the part of mostly former Webmasters in this business. As always, the bad guys screw it up for the good guys. Being honest, disclosing your pricing, allowing cardholders to cancel without a trick or scam is what makes for a long-term player. All of you that are doing the right thing hang in there. It will pay off. The playing field is leveling, then true competition will win over just being able to scam faster than the next guy.

But that?s just my opinion, I could be wrong.

End of Rant.

C

NETbilling · 12-28-2002, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Mallick

Mitch:

Verified by Visa (?V by V?) gives us economic protection against chargebacks starting April 2003 if we are compliant and have installed the Merchant Plug In. We have. At that point, we have to attempt to verify. If we are the only one ?playing? so to speak, of the 3 parties involved (Merchant / Cardholder / Issuing Banks, through their Access Control Server) we still get the protection. Again, if the Merchant is compliant and attempts, the protection is there.

I think that Issuing Banks will require their cardholders to register sooner rather than later for this for 2 important reasons:

1. The Issuer can?t make the Merchant eat the charge if they are not V by V compliant.
2. Issuers can charge cardholders $2 or more per year for the ?service?. Actually they can force feed the charge.

AOL is promoting V by V. Wells Fargo, Chase, BofA, MBNA; all of the big Issuers are starting a push. The last time I checked, 10 million US cardholders were registered, a drop in the bucket, but better than nothing. In the EU this has been working for about 9 months and the Online Merchants are having great success.

So to my understanding the economics will drive Issuers to register, thus dragging cardholders. Then it is up to Merchants to spend the money, certify and use V by V. EPOCH is all over this. We think it will save our Webmasters millions a year.

Again, we also think that the ?It wasn?t me?? friendly fraud will go away for a time and then it will migrate, as the cardholders will likely figure other ways around the requirement to pay. EPOCH is working on a solution for that as well.

Chris
CEO EPOCH

Chris,

Netbilling also will be live with this in April and we are sure it will be a success to a certain degree. However, we find many more chargebacks come from rebilling than initial signups, and this will not protect the merchant from rebilling chargebacks when all he must say is "I cancelled" or "The site was not as promised". This solution will be much more viable for shipped products than recurring membership based web site, don't you agree?

"Your "ranting" is right on target. I agree 100%. We need Visa and Mastercard and anyone in this biz who does not think so, is dead wrong in my opinion. Amex is still alive and kicking after throwing porn out on it's ass!
Mastercard will be right behind Visa with the registration fee as they have been for over a year for merchants with their own merchant accounts.

Mitch

12-26-2002, 09:59 AM	#2
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12-27-2002, 09:00 AM	#20
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	The CC companies have to get together to do something about fraud. Both when the card is used in a shop and over the phone or net. The technology is there, but is there the will to use it? They could have produced cards with your photo on years ago and did not. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

12-28-2002, 03:08 AM	#31
NETbilling Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 8,584	Hi All, Verfied by Visa and Mastercard's solution is viable and Netbilling has been testing as well. However, unless it is required by the issuing banks that their cardholders use it, they won't. Why? Because if a cardholder know they have no liability if they do not use that pin code, they won't. For this to be successful, it must be mandnatory. Also, it won't do squat for rebill or misrepresented content as Chris stated above. This solution is by no means as great as some think it will be.... although I hope it turns out that way. Be sure to come by booth #401 at Internext Thank you, Mitch Farber __________________ Mitch Farber CEO - NETbilling, Inc. Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456 Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

12-28-2002, 08:08 AM	#36
p1mpdogg Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 16,714	EPOCH 4 LIFE __________________ A fast fortune is easy to earn! Just go with a winner!

12-26-2002, 09:57 AM	#1
reddawg Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paradise Posts: 1,837	My email response from Visa. I asked them, Why are you killing digital businesses? Thank you for your message. For specific information or assistance of this nature, please contact the financial institution with which you have your merchant account using the address or telephone number on your Visa statement. Your financial institution can address your inquiry. You can also order the Chargeback Management Guide for Visa Merchants, by visiting the merchant section of our website at: http://usa.visa.com/business/merchan...ack_guide.html Thank you for writing. VISA Webmaster -----Original Message----- From: Ken Somerby [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 00:35 To: [email protected] Subject: Why are you killing Digital Companies? To whom it may concern; Why are you card companies killing the digital world, yes as in Porn. If a customer complains or says I did not authorize it, you can't wait to make us pay him/her back and for those of us who run afilliate programs, this is very costly and many sites can't make it. It is ugly and unfair that a bugger can buy a pass and months later make a complaint to you and you refund their money and it is not as if they can return our products. I wish you would institute a hell no policy! Such as the digital product agreement act. The porn card or visa digi cards could have a no refund disclaimer, unless absolute proof of fraud or stolen cards were 100% provable. I am an honest business man in the world of porn and it costs me alot to refund as I pay my afilliates as well plus my merchant fees and this act of freely refunded their money is killing many of us in this industry and I am even considering giving up, nothing worse than finding out you got a chargeback after nearly six months of service has been rendered. It is so wrong when someone buys a pass and looks at what they wanted to see and get their lust fullfilled and then turn around and chargeback, it just is a rotten shame and if you pioneered new policies to prevent this we in the Industry would be so happy and you would be the ultimate. Thank you for your time. Ken B. Somerby Download this as a file __________________ ICQ 146104506 <p> <a href="http://sexsentry.com"</a><img src="http://sexsentry.com/pics/sentry2.gif" alt="All new Sentry. More options and more exposure and more ways to make even more money by using Sentry Elite and try our new create your own custom entrance script and so many more features, many are still in development, but awesome changes are going on at Sex Sentry!"> </p>

12-26-2002, 10:21 AM	#4
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	i think when you deal with mainstream companies you should use the term adult entertainment hehe Last edited by Theo; 12-26-2002 at 10:28 AM..

12-26-2002, 10:25 AM	#5
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	Visa doesn't care about porn. The % of their overall business that it makes up is NOT enough for them to give a rats ass if it stays or goes.

12-26-2002, 11:05 AM	#7
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	OH I know they don't care about porn. And they probably don't care much about soft goods online either, since I can't see it being a significant amount of their business, coupled with the fact that it's impossible to 'prove' delivery under their current set of standards.

12-26-2002, 11:23 AM	#8
xxxdesign-net My hips don't lie Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 10,129	Visa cares about their users... not the marchants... and the more they get users, the more marchants will have to accept Visa... By the way... it as nothing to do with the porn business.... with their new "Zero Liability" policy .... http://www.usa.visa.com/personal/sec...h2_/index.html Visa is giving a refund to anyone who is asking for it, on or offline... Unless maybe you had something tangible shipped to you, and you signed something to receive the package...

12-26-2002, 11:28 AM	#9
xxxdesign-net My hips don't lie Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 10,129	What they should do is give a refund the first time.... But also, change the credit card... since their credit card number was stolen right...? THat should takes couple of weeks... to receive the new card... Should discourage some of them....!

12-26-2002, 12:21 PM	#11
PrettyCarla Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 144	Experience from few days ago: We paid with Visa Card non-adult order from dvdempire.com (uses pswbilling.com as processor) in the middle of November. This $40 fee was deducted from appropiate account. But dvdempire is telling they got a message from PSWBilling there was some error with card and they did not receive any payment, at 22nd December, 40 days after transaction money still nowhere and dvdempire refuses to fullfill order. What is telling Visa to this situation? Money are at PSWBilling merchant account but we will gladly chargeback them if you give us order. What to do know? Charge back and possibly loose ability to pay with credit cards forever? Or keep $40 for defraudant no matter if it is Visa, PSWBilling or DVD Empire? What would you do on our place?

12-26-2002, 01:09 PM	#14
Melody Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Democratic Blue States of America Posts: 130	Kimmy's right, as usual. All we can do to fight back is protect our password systems, produce content the customer wants (and can't get anywhere else), and raise the price as the degree of fraud goes up. Pretty soon, the surfer will figure out if he charges back, he'll end up paying more for what he really does want. Of course, finding some road around the numbnuts at Visa would also be good for business. Digital wampum, anyone?

12-26-2002, 02:01 PM	#15
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	Chris, You know I love ya, but verified, unverified, first born children's umbilical cord sent via the internet, you know that Visa doesn't really give a fuck. They don't have to... I had an interesting conversation with someone at Fays show in November -- and I'm inclined to agree with them -- let Visa pull the plug sooner rather than later -- the business won't go away, people will still be paying for porn. Before there was Visa on the internet people did it, and after it's gone people will do it. Something will take its' place. And no, I don't count on Paypal as a payment method because Visa and MC still control them just as much as they do you guys. What would I personally like to see from processors? More non Visa, non Mastercard, regional type options -- JCB, Eurodebit, Canada's Interact, etc -- I realize that it's costly to put alot of the smaller systems in place, especially when you look at the immediate ROI -- however, for foreign clients it seems to be a great alternative to Visa/Mastercard -- less of an issue with cdc, less of an issue with fraud or scrubbing, and more flexibility for the clients.

12-27-2002, 03:57 PM	#25
psyko514 See sig. Join Epic Cash. Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec. ICQ: 214702014 Posts: 22,366	reddawg: did you even bother to read the other thread you started concerning this? http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...threadid=96158 read it. VISA LOSES MONEY ON CHARGEBACKS TOO. you wanna know where the biggest part of the problem lies? your processor (i know i'm going to get bitched at for this). at least 75% of chargebacks are from people who don't recognize the transaction on their bill. they sign up at bigfatbitches.com and then see ibillcs.com or paycom on their statement and get all confused. and now, with the new descriptors, it's getting worse. another 10% comes from people who aren't clear on how to cancel, or their subscription isn't properly cancelled despite confirmation emails/numbers being issued.

12-27-2002, 04:09 PM	#27
psyko514 See sig. Join Epic Cash. Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec. ICQ: 214702014 Posts: 22,366	he's pulling cardholder fraud, and it's nearly impossible to prove. it's called innocent until proven guilty, it has nothing to do with Visa "killing digital business". prove that he did in fact sign up and visit the site, and you'll win the chargeback. good luck.

12-28-2002, 11:55 AM	#39
multisexsite Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 929	I think I'm gonna get a VISA with a 10k limit, have my friend go buy me about 5 laptops, and say the card use wasnt authorized. Anyone need a laptop?

12-28-2002, 04:06 PM	#43
andi_germany Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 768	The real problem is that someone claims fraudulent usage gets a chargeback and still uses the card. Most of the time they don't block that credit card for further usage and issue a new one. Why is that? sure they know the reason for the chargeback but they still do it anyway.

12-28-2002, 04:19 PM	#44
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	Friendly fraud is rampant, I'd guess it is probably the single most important factor in chargebacks. Most porn surfers in this day and age are not stupid, they understand it is either cancel or be rebilled -- that is the reason SO many surfers cancel immediately -- they never even look at the members area until after they have cancelled. Hell, even my 11 year old can explain what a free porn tour is versus signing up for something, much to my surprise and dismay over this holiday.