The Free Speech Coalition Why You Should NEVER send them money - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

DaddyHalbucks · 12-06-2008, 12:31 PM

Trust, transparency, and accomplishments are important when you take people's money.

pornlaw · 12-06-2008, 12:53 PM

Okay Mike.... complaining is every American's god given birth rite...

If you do not want to give me whom you think is the bastillion of fiscal responsibility of trade industry groups then ...

Perhaps a few suggestions as to what you think they should be doing would be great. We all now know what you think they are doing wrong.

Since you know... how much should lobbyist costs ? On a federal and a state basis ? Should they have lobbyist in every state or just California and DC ?

As far as fund raising goes, we know you wouldn't spend any money on it but then I am sure you would complain they were not doing it. You then come on the various boards and blog about how no one should give money to them and complain that no one does. Hmmm Cause=Effect ???

I can tell you that the FSC offices are in Canoga Park, a lower rent district, instead on Ventura Blvd in Encino. And their offices are basically the size of a closet. No bloat there. Also, instead of renting a board room at a local hotel to meet in, Diane has her staff meetings in my conference room which I donate to them. No bloat there.

Please enlighten me with the "How Mike South would Run the FSC ?" Be a part of the solution... if that means disbanding the current FSC so be it, but does that mean you would rather have no trade association or that it would be completely different ?

mikesouth · 12-06-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Okay Mike.... complaining is every American's god given birth rite...

If you do not want to give me whom you think is the bastillion of fiscal responsibility of trade industry groups then ...

Perhaps a few suggestions as to what you think they should be doing would be great. We all now know what you think they are doing wrong.

Since you know... how much should lobbyist costs ? On a federal and a state basis ? Should they have lobbyist in every state or just California and DC ?

As far as fund raising goes, we know you wouldn't spend any money on it but then I am sure you would complain they were not doing it. You then come on the various boards and blog about how no one should give money to them and complain that no one does. Hmmm Cause=Effect ???

I can tell you that the FSC offices are in Canoga Park, a lower rent district, instead on Ventura Blvd in Encino. And their offices are basically the size of a closet. No bloat there. Also, instead of renting a board room at a local hotel to meet in, Diane has her staff meetings in my conference room which I donate to them. No bloat there.

Please enlighten me with the "How Mike South would Run the FSC ?" Be a part of the solution... if that means disbanding the current FSC so be it, but does that mean you would rather have no trade association or that it would be completely different ?

The first thing I would do is dissolve it. Plain and simple.

Heres you a list of trade groups that are probably all better than the Free Speech Coalition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

But lets talk some specifics here.

Probably the single most important thing a trade association can do is to improve an industries image, admittedly that is difficult to do for the adult industry but hey its no more difficult a task than the American Bar Association has.

The FSC might start by educating the public about two issues that plague our industry; porn addiction and child pornography. For the former there is no such thing, as for the latter our industry has a way better track record than say teachers, daycare, police, politicians, clergy, coaches and family members.

But is that even what would serve the industry best? I doubt it.

Before we start trying to sell Sacramento or Washington DC on how responsible we are I would suggest we start acting responsibly. This industry would be far better served byan organization that actually invloves the people in it, the talent, the producers and directors, the crew.

When you ask me for money I expect something in return, something a lot more than saying we are using it help protect you, dont ask us how, just trust we now whats best for you.

Whatever org grows out of dissolving the FSC would START with clear objectives and timetables and a reasonable methodology for achieving those objectives, and accountability for those objectives would be the most important thing to be transmitted to the rank and file of the organization.

And as far as fund raising goes I think any idiot can see that spending 2.50 to bring in one dollar ( a 150% loss ) means YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG MORONS!

Now stop deflecting and start answering some of the questions that have been asked.

Bama · 12-06-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Please enlighten me with the "How Mike South would Run the FSC ?" Be a part of the solution... if that means disbanding the current FSC so be it, but does that mean you would rather have no trade association or that it would be completely different ?

OK, I'm not Mike South but I'll offer up a few ideas and anyone can feel free to play devil's advocate with anything I suggest. I won't claim to know all the details of the FSC, but maybe that's a good thing as that places me on the outside looking in...

Let's start at with the basics and ask some questions:

What Is The Role Of The FSC? You can't form an organization and use a broad stroke pen when writing out what role the organization will play. To simply say "We want free speech yadda yadda yadda... won't cut it. Be specific. You can't measure success without pinpointing issues that the FSC will address. The members of the FSC will measure success and failures based upon the defined issues and will expect the efforts (and dollars) to be used for those specific issues.

What Segment Of The Industry Will The FSC Represent? Deciding this can be a little tricky because when you say Free Speech with a broad stroke, that can be interpreted to be free speech for sites such as PirateBay - but - PirateBay (and other such sites) aren't operated in the U.S.A. and as such do not qualify to be represented as Free Speech is a right for U.S. citizens. We need to be able to separate us from them - or at least the negative inpact they carry.

Who Is Going To Run The FSC? The people don't decide, they only choose the people who do - so, who do we entrust our faith to take our issues to "the man" and accomplish our goals? What are the qualifications we need for that position? Who decides those qualifications?

How Do Board Members Get Appointed/Elected? Who are these people and how did they arrive on the board of directors? Did they get 10 of their best buddies to suggest them? Are they qualified? The "Bro Club" has its' place, but this isn't the place for it. This needs to be a serious organization with serious people who focus on industry issues.

What Input Do We Have? How much of a voice will we have? Does the board listen to our issues or will it turn into an organization that decides what our important issues are (or should be)?

Start with those questions, kick em' around, add to and move on from there

DatingGold · 12-06-2008, 03:08 PM

$1 million isnt much to lobby with.

pornlaw · 12-06-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Probably the single most important thing a trade association can do is to improve an industries image, admittedly that is difficult to do for the adult industry but hey its no more difficult a task than the American Bar Association has.

The FSC might start by educating the public about two issues that plague our industry; porn addiction and child pornography. For the former there is no such thing, as for the latter our industry has a way better track record than say teachers, daycare, police, politicians, clergy, coaches and family members.

We are in total agreement. Its tough to put a shine on this industry, but it is possible. But hiring a PR firm would cost substantial money - a solid PR firm is going to be a minimum of $10k a month upwards up $30k. Would you be okay with a $360,000 outlay for someone to send out a couple of PRs each month and make an occasional TV appearance ?

Quote:

This industry would be far better served byan organization that actually invloves the people in it, the talent, the producers and directors, the crew.

Again 100% agreement. And the FSC isnt closed to anyone. Actually I think they should open it to consumers as well. Arent their rights to watch porn also on trial when Max and John ect. get prosecuted ? If no one wants to buy porn, do you think they would spend an extra $50 a year on a membership ? Or maybe a $1 month extra on a website membership billed monthly ?

Quote:

And as far as fund raising goes I think any idiot can see that spending 2.50 to bring in one dollar ( a 150% loss ) means YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG MORONS!

Hard to raise money when a Mike South is on the forums blogging that no one should give the FSC a dime. But your point is well noted. There are a lot of ways to raise money they havent thought of.... spend a day on set to the highest bidder ? non sex walk on role in a Wicked movie... dinner with your favorite star ... ect - all of which costs nothing if its donated and could bring in money -- from the fans.

I think part of the problem was that the FSC was started as a war chest and people came to think of them as such. They have moved past that, but people in the industry still think that they should be.

Most trade associations exist to (1) lobby on behalf of the industry (2) educate and inform (3) allow for networking for its members (4) provide ancillary services ie., credit unions, health insurance, job banks ect for its members.

Paying member's legal costs isnt one of them.

And like the last poster stated, even if the FSC had $1,000,000 alone to lobby with, thats peanuts compared to what other industries throw around on politicians. The fact is few politicians want to be seen dining with the FSC or taking this money from us. You want to see a politician run, try to take a picture of him with Mary Carey during Lobbying Days in Sacramento. I know, I tried.

Mike you make it sound like $1,000,000 is huge money. Its not. My overhead is more than that every year and I run a small boutique law firm. Can I tell you where every dime goes - nope, cause I would spend all day searching for every one of them.

If you goal is to have 100% accountability on every dime, no one could do anything at the FSC that was remotely worthwhile. I can assure you that from everything that I have seen, Diane is not running bar bills and taking private jets and limos everywhere. Hell I end up paying the tab whenever we have lunch together.

pocketkangaroo · 12-06-2008, 04:19 PM

My question is simple, what have they done for the industry lately? Shouldn't be a tough question to answer. They don't have anything on their site of value since 2005 mentioning what they've done. I have seen them in the news losing cases though.

$5 submissions · 12-06-2008, 04:54 PM

Interesting how this all turned out...

tony286 · 12-06-2008, 05:08 PM

I agree with Mike about educating. When some pundit is going to have some anti porn person I dont want Ron Jeremy as my voice. I want an clean shaven person in a suit who is well versed in actual facts. I dont think lobbying does enough I think its more important that fsc should spend 80 percent of what they make in legal be it giving advice to people in the industry having legal battles or actually sending lawyers on their behalf. Hire a professional fund raiser when you consider all the money this industry makes they are collecting nothing. Also stick to a set of principles, leave piracy to someone else. Also the industry has to police itself but this wont happen because as a industry there are too many hidden agendas,its my business I will do whatever the fuck I want types and megalomaniacs.

TheAmericanCannibal · 12-06-2008, 05:14 PM

I'll gladly rep and lobby for the adult industry for half of what any other PR firm would charge.

People may laugh all they want-
But I never get bad press.

I am a spin doctor capable of putting the best MAC lipstick on a pig.

I guarantee 100% if people like me who deal with PRESS every sweeps week, and can get in front of celebrities and congressmen and talk to them like real people- things can change.

It's just that old guard stigma that is attached to the FSC that they can't shake.

I recall seeing receipts from dry cleaners for $100's of dollars and hotel bills Bill Lyon racked up years ago and knew then that this industry was doomed from a lobbying perspective.

The other problem is that some of the people who contribute the most to the FSC are felons.

That can never help our cause or put anyone in a positive light.
I am not saying that these people haven't served their time or have been reformed it is what it is... and something the entire Board of the FSC should already know.

The FSC was started to help book store owners an producers of porn.
It should have absolutely nothing to do with the internet at all.

How can the FSC watchover a global epidemic?

They can't.

It's like Interpol investigating a kidnaping in Florida.
It's not in their jurisdiction.

Maybe a bad analogy, but to me it is pretty simple.

tony286 · 12-06-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAmericanCannibal

I'll gladly rep and lobby for the adult industry for half of what any other PR firm would charge.

People may laugh all they want-
But I never get bad press.

I am a spin doctor capable of putting the best MAC lipstick on a pig.

I guarantee 100% if people like me who deal with PRESS every sweeps week, and can get in front of celebrities and congressmen and talk to them like real people- things can change.

It's just that old guard stigma that is attached to the FSC that they can't shake.

I recall seeing receipts from dry cleaners for $100's of dollars and hotel bills Bill Lyon racked up years ago and knew then that this industry was doomed from a lobbying perspective.

The other problem is that some of the people who contribute the most to the FSC are felons.

That can never help our cause or put anyone in a positive light.
I am not saying that these people haven't served their time or have been reformed it is what it is... and something the entire Board of the FSC should already know.

The FSC was started to help book store owners an producers of porn.
It should have absolutely nothing to do with the internet at all.

How can the FSC watchover a global epidemic?

They can't.

It's like Interpol investigating a kidnaping in Florida.
It's not in their jurisdiction.

Maybe a bad analogy, but to me it is pretty simple.

Good points if I ever got rich I would have KB handle my pr

But I think they can focus on the us, if the us got their shit together.

CarlosTheGaucho · 12-06-2008, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404

I dont want Ron Jeremy as my voice. I want an clean shaven person in a suit who is well versed in actual facts.

tony286 · 12-06-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlosTheGaucho

lol I want him or her to look as conservative as the conservative scumbags. Think about it they got some real professional looking antiporn scumbag and very casual looking Ron. Now Ron is a really good guy and very smart but for someone who knows nothing about the industry the professional looking person gets instant credit because of the way they look.We need to take that away from them.

TheAmericanCannibal · 12-06-2008, 05:58 PM

Tony I am more affordable than you think
:-))

Also I think I look pretty professional in my media appearances.
You guys decide

Press conference for Virgin Territory

Me on Dr. Phil wearing my ASACP PIN!!!

ownin Catherine Crier on Court TV
https://youtube.com/watch?v=MmZ3XDW0x3k

Me on 20/20

http://www.marketingfirm.com/kbmedia.wmv

Loki · 12-06-2008, 06:17 PM

I was gonna be done with this thread but THIS just got to me....

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Why do people in this industry believe that if they donate to the FSC that their donations should be their own private "legal fund ?"

Well for starters let me clarify by YOUR term of "This Industry" to be ONLINE PORN, and not necessarily the whole ball of wax, there is indeed two factions of porn, brick & mortar companies Like Elegant Angel, Vivid, Kick Ass, etc, they MAY or may not also have an online presence BUT the brick and mortar companies STARTED the biz NOT US, WE are the "new kids on the block" and WE as a collective have done more HARM then good since our birth.

To get back to the actual question... the BULK of your average adult webmasters are NOT biz savoy people, they are not college grads, biz majors, etc etc, SOME ARE, but MOST are NOT, now you have a major crisis (hell theres at LEAST one per month right?) and one org steps up and PRETENDS to be "Jesus Christ" (Meaning our only saviors from the powers that be) they CLAIMED "Give us money, and you WILL BE PROTECTED" they make all these wonderful claims about your safety, privacy, and well being, and they did nothing more then prey upon people's FEAR.

Now remember based on the assumption that the bulk of us are NOT biz majors, we join this org, and we assume we are protected and that would be enough right? WRONG, we STILL need our OWN legal representation.... or do we?

I remember one of the BIGGEST gripes I had with the FSC during the days of my radio shows was the blatant LIES and fear mongering people on their behalf were into, I recall a thread (here I think) where a person said something along the lines of "we have our own legal team WHY SHOULD WE JOIN THE FSC" and the "official response" was along the lines of: "If your NOT a member of the FSC you will NOT be covered in their 2257 injunction"

So this org, knows MORE then your own hired legal aid, and without them no matter who your legal team is your gonna be fucked??? guess I better join now huh? and with all this logic I don't need a lawyer on TOP of the FSC since as a member I'm covered so they say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

The FSC is not in existence to provide a defense to every adult company that gets into trouble nor should they. Each company has to take responsibility for themselves and actually provide for their own defense.

Again lets go back to the beginning of the FSC's internet fame, where they came to the sub porn niche (see beginning of this post) and filled our heads with promises of safety and a magic SEALED list that everyone upon that list would be SAFE and FREE of gov. inspections, WHY should I bother with my own lawyer when this wonderful org has me TOTALLY PROTECTED? (or so they claimed)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

The FSC will step up and file amicus curiae briefs when necessary on behalf of the industry as a whole. Its myopic to think that "hey I gave $50,000 to the FSC this year, they will keep that money for me in case I need to get a lawyer."

How about changing that to: "hey I gave $50,000 to the FSC this year, why didn't they do anything they 'promised' they would do pertaining the online porn industry?"

Here's a funny thing from me, I APPLAUD the FSC.... for their OFFLINE porn work, they have done ALLOT for the brick & mortar porn companies, BUT they have fleeced and raped the online portion of the industry and have done NOTHING that I can see.

Their simply "robbing peter to pay for paul" Peter being the internet porn people, Paul being the offline porn people

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

You cannot claim fiscal mismanagement without knowing what the budget is for an equally situated industry and their trade group. Please provide some facts in comparison before you make unsubstantiated claims. And please don't use a trade group like the NRA that is 10x the size of the FSC. Compare apples to apples.

This is some skeevy shit, an org CLAIMING to need money to fund litigation, to file injunctions, to hire legal teams, to OVERTURN bills BILKS almost TWO MILLION dollars in a fiscal year and according to their own report spends the bulk of that money on WHAT?

I could care less how much EFD (fake org) spends on what from their 2mill MEMBER DONATED FUNDS, UNLESS they made grandiose claims and fell far more then short on actually making good on said claims, The FSC did and has been doing just that.

Really this is a subject that got me into some trouble years back, and these days you guys would call it a "bro issue" I call it a bullshit issue, we reap what we sow nothing more and nothing less. I love this industry and by that I mean the ENTIRE industry, but the damage this faction has done is really not fixable even by the best PR people we have, as a collective whole we have created an online empire based on fucking...

fucking our consumers, and then whining when the law tries to stop us, OR when someone "steals" our content.

porn is a BIZ nothing more nothing less, and contrary to popular belief not EVERYONE can make it in biz

/end rant
// steps off soap box

/// puts on Flame Retardant pants

-Loki-

TheAmericanCannibal · 12-06-2008, 06:26 PM

Loki-

Thas was an excellent post.
Kudo's for you and your insight.

You and I agree on a lot of things
:-))

PS I am not looking to pound on the FSC.
I just have always called a spade a spade so to speak.

I believe that the FSC is like the UAW.
The both are pretty much vestigial right now.

Profits of Doom · 12-06-2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Why do people in this industry believe that if they donate to the FSC that their donations should be their own private "legal fund ?"

In any other industry, corporations financially support the trade industry group that represents their interests AND they hire their own lawyers to handle their own legal problems.

The FSC is not in existence to provide a defense to every adult company that gets into trouble nor should they. Each company has to take responsibility for themselves and actually provide for their own defense.

The FSC will step up and file amicus curiae briefs when necessary on behalf of the industry as a whole. Its myopic to think that "hey I gave $50,000 to the FSC this year, they will keep that money for me in case I need to get a lawyer."

Since Mike is so well versed on this.... please tell me what other industry's trade groups do for their members and how much they spend on various items ???

You cannot claim fiscal mismanagement without knowing what the budget is for an equally situated industry and their trade group. Please provide some facts in comparison before you make unsubstantiated claims. And please don't use a trade group like the NRA that is 10x the size of the FSC. Compare apples to apples.

We never expected the FSC to be our own private legal fund. We had an excellent attorney in Louis Sirkin (and Brad Shafer for our Michigan locations that were under fire) that we spent a ton of money on. We were simply looking for the FSC to get involved with some of the media surrounding our cases, and to let it be known they were on our side. These were pretty important cases in which multiple cities were trying to use public nuisance laws, which are used to shut down crackhouses, to close adult businesses. The FSC couldn't be bothered. It won't be forgotten...

mikesouth · 12-06-2008, 07:09 PM

yA KNOW THESE FSC GUYS ALWAYS VOMIT UP THE WHY DO YOU EXPECT US TO BE YOUR LEGAL DEFENSE FUND BLAH BLAH BLAH

I will fucking tell you why because when they come around begging for money they intentionally give people that impression they know its a con but the guy forking over his hard earned cash has no idea.

Loki · 12-06-2008, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAmericanCannibal

Loki-

Thas was an excellent post.
Kudo's for you and your insight.

You and I agree on a lot of things
:-))

PS I am not looking to pound on the FSC.
I just have always called a spade a spade so to speak.

I believe that the FSC is like the UAW.
The both are pretty much vestigial right now.

Greeeeeeeaaaaaat, now I gotta sit back and watch The FSC members fly out to Washington in private jets and beg for a bailout?????

All jokes aside, I'm pleased that you agree on some of what I touched on, I've always been a fan of both the Blatt brothers.

My biggest issue with the FSC is they out and out used bullshit scare tactics to TRICK people to join their org years back, made more promises and claims then ANY political party member, and delivered even less, again at least where it pertained to the ONLINE porn industry.

Allot of this COULD have been avoided, but sadly it seems to me that that entire "Chicken Little" recruiting was "Bro Approved" and if you spoke out LOUDLY against the "approved" speech, you got shitcanned or flamed like a match.

I do have to admit, this like other things makes me chuckle a bit, all be it a sad chuckle I said it before and I'll say it again.... we reap what we sow.

Last but not least... we need to chat one of these days, I have a few projects that could use you somewhere down the line

-Loki-

topnotch, standup guy · 12-06-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAmericanCannibal

I'll gladly rep and lobby for the adult industry for half of what any other PR firm would charge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAmericanCannibal

The FSC was started to help book store owners an producers of porn.
It should have absolutely nothing to do with the internet at all.

Back before the last ice age maybe.

Nowadays the FSC's job is to keep the 2257 boogymen away. Nothing more and nothing less.

pornlaw · 12-07-2008, 12:36 AM

Quote:

My biggest issue with the FSC is they out and out used bullshit scare tactics to TRICK people to join their org years back, made more promises and claims then ANY political party member, and delivered even less, again at least where it pertained to the ONLINE porn industry.

I cant argue with this point or most of the others you have made. I was bothered by the same tactics and some of the chicken little tactics of some of the other attorneys in the industry. Fear should never be used as a motivator to part someone from their cash.

I will be meeting with Diane and will be passing along your arguments.

However, I am still of the belief that you do not throw out the baby with the bath water like Mike South would like to do. There are changes that should be made. Change occurs slowly especially in a group run by consensus.

I do not always agree with everything that the FSC does, but I also do not feel that this industry -- online or brick and mortar -- can do without an industry trade group. If the online industry feels, as a collective, under-represented by FSC, why hasnt this aspect of the industry started their own trade association. Most industries have several trade associations.

I have gone to Sacramento for years now on the FSC Lobbying Day and I can personally tell you, each year it gets easier and easier. We get less and less flax and more acceptance. We were able to kill a tax on porn all-the-while the state of California was having its worse state budget crisis in the state's history. It was amazing to meet with the Speaker of the House and be told that he would not support a tax on porn, no matter what.

If dont you think thats a major accomplishment. Think again. If California would have passed it, every other state would line up to do the same.

Its going to take more time and yes more money to get accomplished what needs to be accomplished before there is a radical shift in people's perceptions about porn and online porn especially.

Loki · 12-07-2008, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

I cant argue with this point or most of the others you have made. I was bothered by the same tactics and some of the chicken little tactics of some of the other attorneys in the industry. Fear should never be used as a motivator to part someone from their cash.

And yet, it is used and far more often then not. And it's perfectly all well and good as LONG as you don't get caught, well enough times I guess, but seriously here, how can you sit/stand there and both AGREE that the FSC used pure scare tactics AND yet still endorse them... granted you also admit that you "don't always agree with everything they do"

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

I will be meeting with Diane and will be passing along your arguments.

That's great and all, but it would prolly do a bit better by doing a simple search here on the MANY other threads about the FSC and take it ALL to Diane, not that it will make much difference, what can they really do....

(1) Give back the money that was unfairly gained under misrepresentation of both membership "benefits" or the contents of their own "charter".... can't have that, we all should have read the fine print and had our own legal teams

(2) Actually put their .. well our money where their mouths are and DO what they claimed they would do for the ONLINE industryWell SURE we can do all that and more.... but were gonna need MORE of your money... but this time we've changed scouts honor!

(3) Release the "Pro FSC" people on the board and give us canned responses and DODGE any and ALL valid issues we may haveHmmm, sounds easy, and hell were good at it too

(4) The Almighty Epiphany...never gonna happen, there's no money in honesty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

However, I am still of the belief that you do not throw out the baby with the bath water like Mike South would like to do. There are changes that should be made. Change occurs slowly especially in a group run by consensus.

Your honer, what my colleague is trying to say is that Mike south hates babies AND bathwater.... all jokes aside (it's late and I'm a funny guy lol) Theres a valid reason to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater in this respect, imagine trying to get people to like Hitler after the holocaust (I'm NOT calling the FSC Hitler mind you lol) How much would it take to convince people to give him say one more chance?

Same thing here (on much smaller scale mind you) in respects to the online porn faction the FSC told us all there were "showers and food" and we just needed to sign up and pay 'um. then we'd all be safe and snug and sealed in a magical list that would never be seen

sorry, again it's just too easy.

All be it an extreme example can you see the truth in it? how does one "fix" mistrust, misrepresentation, and exploitation? How does an industry give them a second chance, knowing what a clusterfuck the first went, and that literally the FSC got away with it, they got our money, and we got squat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

I do not always agree with everything that the FSC does, but I also do not feel that this industry -- online or brick and mortar -- can do without an industry trade group. If the online industry feels, as a collective, under-represented by FSC, why hasnt this aspect of the industry started their own trade association. Most industries have several trade associations.

Its going to take more time and yes more money to get accomplished what needs to be accomplished before there is a radical shift in people's perceptions about porn and online porn especially.

First off a POSSIBLE answer to WHY "This aspect" of the industry has not gone out and created such an org. lies in the fact that too many of the people involved do NOT take this as a biz. it's not a "job" or a "career" it's a "quick buck

" it's a "Party

" It's a chance for "Free porn

" and because of that mentality WHY would anyone waste their time?

Another thing I keep in mind is that in a industry built on lies, scams, and tricks and the money FLOWED like wine, WHY would they really want to "clean it up" and put on a public face" that would SHOW the public who they were, what they did and (when applicable) how they fucked them over.

The brick porn has already been doing that same thing for AGES theres really nothing FOR THEM TO HIDE, (less some drugs and taxes for some) but all in all they stand out in the public day after day trying to change the way people view adult entertainment, and adult sexual aides.

The FSC should have NEVER gotten involved with online porn, at the very LEAST a leg should have been created UNDER the main corp. that would handle this side, so at the very least again, we would have had some sort of better representation then we've gotten thus far.

And to all of you who would say:

"Do you have a better idea" "do something about it yourself" "fuck you" or whatever else, ask yourself this question

How would you be different RIGHT NOW, if there was NO FSC for your online porn, meaning would you feel any different about your rights, money, freedom etc?

Seems to me, if we can mostly agree that they've done nothing for us, why the hell could we say something like "better to have them then no one"

-Loki-

mikesouth · 12-07-2008, 10:18 AM

yes i do advocate throwing the baby out with the bathwater in this case.

for so long the FSC and its leadership have gained such a poor reputation that it can not be salvaged, plain and simple. you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear, it's just trying to put lipstick on a pig yada yada

in this case its best to simply start over and leave the name and the fuck ups behind.

SmokeyTheBear · 12-07-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornlaw

Good one.... but they didnt spend $20 million on heated mittens.

Thats why its called an example. You said you couldn't claim any expense was fiscal mismanagement unless an equally sized group was spending more. I was merely pointing out that you were wrong.

Redrob · 12-07-2008, 11:47 AM

Over the years, I've heard the arguement before that the FSC doesn't represent "my" segment, i.e. talent, directors, stage hands, editors, webmasters, consumers, etc.

The truth is that FSC membership is open to all and provides a lot of information on the website that has been discussed here including mission, strategic plan, and the 2007 annual report.

Link to Free Speech Coalition Information Page

With Alec Hemly of Xbiz, Adam Lucas of Unzipped Media, Morgan Sommer of Cybersocket, and Tim Valenti (incumbent) of Naked Sword running for board seats, I don't see how the online segment feels under represented. Tim was already on the Board along with Tom Hymes of Xbiz and Darklady. When you, the online community, look into the "FSC" mirror, you will see youself looking back.

The some members of the online community may feel that the FSC doesn't act in their best interest: The What Have You Done For Me Lately!!!! Crowd.

However, realize that the leaders of the online-community feel that the FSC is a valuable organization, that it is worth joining and participating in, that the online community is well represented on the Board of the FSC, and has participated in the budgetary, planning, and priority setting process.

If you don't like the budget, agenda, goals, etc, I would suggest that you join, get active, vote or run for the Board, and help the FSC reach it's goals, and communicate your concerns to Board members that share your interests.

Quitters, whiners, and haters who do nothing but bitch about the FSC while offering no alternatives do more harm to our industry than good. It is hard to raise the needed revenues to meet our goals when some folks are spewing their vitriol on the Boards.

If you really hate the FSC, do something about it: join and change it, or, create an alternative. Don't be passive.

DonX · 12-07-2008, 11:54 AM

I agree, I never heard shit from them either

Anal Hobbit · 12-07-2008, 12:03 PM

The Free Speech Coalition is Anal Hobit Approved.

Nuff Said.

mikesouth · 12-07-2008, 12:09 PM

redrob once again you state the obvious

the FSC will take money from anyone

and you fail to answer any questions that have been posed

tell yall what send me whatever money you were going to give to the FSC I welcome all contributors I will take money from all of you.

And I will tell you EXACTLY where it will go.

I will use it to pay cute amateur girls to shoot bukkakes for me, I will use it to go offshore fishing and diving and to do things that make me happy.

Now you will get exactly the same value for your money that the FSC is going to give you...NONE.... but with me you have full accountability. You know whats its being used for

paypal it to mikesouth at mikesouth.com

FakeNick · 12-07-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

Now you will get exactly the same value for your money that the FSC is going to give you...NONE.... but with me you have full accountability. You know whats its being used for

paypal it to mikesouth at mikesouth.com

good call

FightThisPatent · 12-07-2008, 08:32 PM

I have no crystal ball, but some suggestions based on alot of observations:

- mikesouth, run for the board of directors and get elected. The board needs passionate people like you who really do care about the porn industry (like connor and tom) and can communicate and share that energy with others.

- the larger adult companies are taking care of themselves. they have the revenue, the offshore coverage and offshore banking. in following the 80/20 rule.. there is still 80% of adult businesses out there that make up a large number, but don't make the combined revenue of the bigger boys. i say have ccbill and epoch raise processing rates by 1% and have that 1% be contributed to FSC.

meaning..if you are being charged 12% from CCbill/epoch, you would be charged 13%. Before you start crying about losing money, if you are making $500,000/year, the 1% would cost you $5,000 in a year. If $300M dollars processed in a year were charged 1%, that would give the FSC $3M to really do the PR and legal defenses.

As loki brilliantly posted: the brick and mortar companies STARTED the biz NOT US, WE are the "new kids on the block" and WE as a collective have done more HARM then good since our birth.

Those that have paid FSC dues and made contributions, truly do understand that money is necessary to fund the fight . The problem is that the greater majority do nothing and wait to others fund the fight which there is little in the coffers.

.XXX (start evil background soundtrack here) would have placed a "tax" on all adult businesses that had the .XXX domain, and that money might have gone to (ironically) help the adult industry with much better funding.

Porn taxes like what California was trying to pass would have done nothing to help the adult biz out. It would siphon money out of adult and into government pet projects as "found money". Don't forget there have been several congressional bills suggested for a porn tax of like 25%.

By forcing those who do not have a merchant account, to have to pay their contributions to fund the industry trade association, is a very small price to pay. I feel that some webmasters may grumble about the 1% and try to threaten (bluff) that they would leave ccbill/epoch, but the reality is these two companies are at the top of their game for a reason, they have their credibility and time spent in the industry. If some upstart comes in to charge less (which many have already), business owners would need to evaluate who is going to keep paying them their money and not fold up like so many processors have.

The motto "united we stand, divided we fall" is very much with rosy-glasses.

The reality is adult business are following the motto: "divided we stand, divided we fall", in thinking they will take care of their own problems.

But federal laws, current and pending, have a broader chilling effect, that the future is more like "divided we stand, united we fall".

Fight the 1 if by land, 2 if by sea!

mikesouth · 12-07-2008, 09:34 PM

FTP

Thank you for your words of support, what a lot of people don't follow is I really am passionate about this industry but I am not blind to our problems, particularly the self inflicted ones.

I have had a lot of people suggest I run for the board some sarcastically but many more seriously. I appreciate that some of you do recognize that I have a common sense approach and that I would be an asset but the truth is that I dont believe I could fix it. Short of disbanding it and starting over with something new that has a more focused approach and a real plan complete with accountability at all levels including financial.

I absolutely disagree with any kind of forced donation because thats why the FSC is the blunder that it is. Any organization should have to earn its members, it keeps them honest and being the Libertarian I am I could never support a hike in already too high processing rates.

Lets give an example here I recently turned 50. as soon as I got the opportunity I joined the AARP. Even though I dont agree with all of their agenda I see the value of this organization. It represents me and my interests, there is full accountability, I get weekly updates on what things they are involved in. I even sent them a donation.

Same with the NRA and the ACLU I may be the only person on earth who contributes to both. But I know that the money I give is being used wisely.

Now the idea behind the FSC is a noble one and I was a member and I contributed as well as donated time in the past. Nobody turned me against the FSC, the FSC turned me against the FSC. I have seen it said here that our industry NEEDS a trade association but that statement is wrong. What our industry needs is an EFFECTIVE trade association that works for the good of the entire industry, from performers to company owners. The FSC is NOT and never has been that organization.

You mention .xxx we all know that money would have gone into a black hole called icmregistry who had no intention at all of doing anything other than getting very wealthy off of laws mandating that adult sites use that Tld.

Ask yourself this as an industry are we better off, without the FSC? then ask yourself are we better off with the FSC? Most you you probably get the picture here...its irrelevant. We would be better off with a new organization that is trustworthy, accountable and transparent.

FightThisPatent · 12-08-2008, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

Ask yourself this as an industry are we better off, without the FSC? then ask yourself are we better off with the FSC? Most you you probably get the picture here...its irrelevant. We would be better off with a new organization that is trustworthy, accountable and transparent.

I would say that the industry is better off WITH the FSC.... but, the industry could be BETTER with a better FSC.

Your criticisms are constructive for the most part, except for the disbanding part.

Creating a trade organization is not an easy task. FSC has a structure in place, where you and others are seeing the problem has more to do with the focus of the organization and to some degree, the people who are participating in it.

Diane Duke is awesome as the Executive Director, let me make that very clear to anyone who has not had the chance to talk to Diane and understand her commitment to FSC and to the adult industry.

As for the Rabin Group (FSC's lobbying group in DC).. Robert Rabin and his staff ( i had the chance to meet with Robert and he's very bright) are sharp and do understand FSC's needs. Not many lobbying groups would take on FSC as a client because of the adult stigma.

What FSC needs is more members and more dollars.

Money can't buy love, but it can buy a whole lot of action.

Expecting webmasters to voluntarily pay for membership dues falls on the same money drive each year as PBS (and yes, i am just as guilty in not contributing to PBS, but yet i enjoy the services, which i look to correct on the next pledge drive). many won't contribute.

What webmasters can do is to help make change and provide checks and balances through VOTING. Vote for board members who will serve your needs.

The adult industry has some many sections to it, that it makes sense to have a board director from those areas.

It is the board of directors that guides the ship. It is how the organization lives on through time, and how it determines its mission.

I feel the only way to properly fund the adult industry trade group, is to place an adult processing tax on all transactions where possible/applicable, so that business owners have to contribute to FSC.

"Herding cats" (insert other phrases to describe webmasters), won't bring in member support, nor the necessary money to handle the PR and lobbying campaigns.

Just like Obama suggesting there needs to be some fundamental changes, I too am suggesting that the adult industry needs some fundamental change to arm itself again piracy and obscenity issues.

Just because we have a democratic president, doesn't mean that federal laws won't be continued to be upheld.

mikesouth, if others have told you to run for FSC, and for people that you do respect, listen to all those voices... they, like me, are sitting back and observing what is going on. Given the list of current members and the nominated ones, you should be there.

Fight the i second the motion!

FightThisPatent · 12-08-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

Trust, transparency, and accomplishments are important when you take people's money.

wish this concept could be applied to congress

Fight the taxation without representation!

FakeNick · 12-08-2008, 09:55 AM

why is it always the same schills defending the fsc on the boards when this sort of shit hits the fan?

the industry needs to give them more money for them to do what they need to do.... NO the FSC need to spend more than 75 grand on legal fees, they already had almost 1 million dollars and they pissed it away.

rather than giving the fsc more money why dont they just make better use of the money they are already being given!

mikesouth · 12-08-2008, 10:02 AM

The problem is that the industry has poured money into this hole for many years and have not gotten any results, then they always come back asking for more money, making promises they cant keep, lying and misrepresenting themselves and what they do.

When you do that the well will run dry. People have caught on and no amount of PR, at this point will be taken as anything other than more lies. Given that this organzation has had twenty years or so to get its act together and that 20 years or so later it is seen by the people it needs most as fundamentally inept at best and overtly corrupt at worst, well it's time to get rid of it.

mikesouth · 12-08-2008, 10:06 AM

And BTW hell will be frozen over indeed before I will give any money to the FSC, either voluntarily or by force. period. and no it's no bluff on my part, for one I have my own merchant account. For another what you are proposing to have CCBill and others do is patently illegal in this country.

FightThisPatent · 12-08-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

For another what you are proposing to have CCBill and others do is patently illegal in this country.

uh, what law would that be?

a processor can charge what they want.. what they do with the money is their business.

so the 1% contribution to FSC could come out of their pockets.. or, its a pass-thru cost through raised rates..

(if you are thinking money-laundering.. it has the appearance of that, but its not the case.)

what is "illegal" by visa/mc rules, is where a business tacks on money to the bill to cover the CC charge (ie. passthru) ... so its a higher price if you pay with plastic than with cash.

i admit, its a radical idea , but out of the box thinking is going to be needed to properly fund the adult industry trade organization.

abolishing FSC is not the answer..

FSC does need to address some issues as you have pointed out, to gain the confidence back from those why are now on the fence in contributing.

Your bashing of FSC doesn't directly hurt FSC as michael posted earlier, it does contribute to the pause that one has in reaching for the wallet, but your assertions would need to be countered by FSC statements to prove the contrary.

If that is not done, then your arguments are left hanging, and taken for fact.. much like if i let you make your statement that its "illegal" what i am proposing without calling you on it, it hangs out there as some assumed fact.

Fight the i think, therefore it is!

FightThisPatent · 12-08-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

When you do that the well will run dry. People have caught on and no amount of PR, at this point will be taken as anything other than more lies. Given that this organzation has had twenty years or so to get its act together and that 20 years or so later it is seen by the people it needs most as fundamentally inept at best and overtly corrupt at worst, well it's time to get rid of it.

and what is your solution to replace it with?

I'll offer some suggestions:

You could talk to Larry Walters who had the idea of creating an FSC like organization.
You can talk to Cambria who probably has his own ideas of what an organization should be.

Combine the two, and you have a new legal foundation much like with Reed and Jeffery at the FSC.

But then, you face the same problem that FSC and every organization has, getting funded.

You think with "truth", and "transparency" , good ideas and visions, and alot of pom-pom waving will get webmasters who are traditionally apathetic about these kinds of issues, to part with money, especially in this recession?

You think $2-3M can be voluntarily contributed towards an organization to properly fight the fires, where the members want?

For every 2 reasons you are putting out that FSC is so bad, can you contribute 1 idea to either make it better, or how to make a new org be the servant to the adult industry constituents that you envision?

Fight the challenge!

tranza · 12-08-2008, 11:11 AM

Cliff notes??

notoldschool · 12-08-2008, 11:26 AM

If this thing you call the FSC is fighting piracy can someone tell me one site they have had shut down or maybe one they are working on? I would NEVER join a paysite when the big tubes give far more away than ANY Program out there and im even talking about more content than Bangbros and the other big boys. Its a joke and I feel there is NOONE working on it, whatever title they have.

MaDalton · 12-08-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

- the larger adult companies are taking care of themselves. they have the revenue, the offshore coverage and offshore banking. in following the 80/20 rule.. there is still 80% of adult businesses out there that make up a large number, but don't make the combined revenue of the bigger boys. i say have ccbill and epoch raise processing rates by 1% and have that 1% be contributed to FSC.

meaning..if you are being charged 12% from CCbill/epoch, you would be charged 13%. Before you start crying about losing money, if you are making $500,000/year, the 1% would cost you $5,000 in a year. If $300M dollars processed in a year were charged 1%, that would give the FSC $3M to really do the PR and legal defenses.

how about taking the 1% from the current rates? gas for the private jets has just become cheaper again so it would be compensated

Connor · 12-08-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socks

I guess you missed the post? You sound like a politician.. You probably are one.

You didn't even refute any of his points, or make an argument really.

Your sig says FSC in it.. Twice..

Gee, I can take your opinion straight to the bank huh?

Heh... he probably didn't bother to refute the points because this thread is just another GFY mob. The "facts" in this thread are SOOOO far from reality that it's laughable. Most of you have your pitch forks and torches out, and you're not going to listen to reason.

Mike South... by now most of you who know this guy HAVE to know this is what he does for a living. He stirs shit up. And he's made a little niche for himself by spreading hate towards the FSC. And it's not hard to find haters. What he's doing is a disservice to the entire industry, but not only does he NOT seem to care, so many of you are going along with it. And you should all really stop, take a breath, and re-evaluate.

I could sit here all day and explain why Mike is wrong, but not only would it just be one guy on a message board against another, it would be a waste of another day, so it's pointless and I have other things to do. So I'm out of this thread. But I will extend this offer. If Mike South wants to give me a call, I'll be more than happy to talk to him by phone and tell him what I'm saying here... that he's causing harm to the industry, and I'll tell him why.

mikesouth · 12-08-2008, 12:15 PM

FTP - Ok I see how you intend to do it, it isnt an official donation it comes out of CCBills take but it still doesn't mitigate the point that what it really does is rewards the FSC for nothing and it gives them no reason to be accountable or otherwise improve. It's throwing money at them hoping they improve which history shows us they wont.

Conner - I can respect the idea that you think I am wrong for the simple reason that I think you are wrong. Just because I am not a myrmidon who will blindly follow whatever the FSC says is its mantra o the day, doesn't mean I am harming the industry. What I am trying to do is make it better. Constructive criticism. Everytime I have been confronted with deflection (the well what would YOU do thing) I answer honestly, without deflecting.

In my heart I know that we as an industry can do a lot better than this organization. We are driven, independent and very innovative. If we spent half the effort to come up with a better trade organization that we do into trying to screw the customer and each other we would have the most effective trade organization in history.

Do my commentaries hurt the FSC? Yes, in a word I know that they do, but that alone wouldn't be enough if the FSC wasn't proving my points over and over.

If I were ED of the FSC the first thing I would do is call me and see if there was something, anything that could be done to reverse this perception that they are worthless. The second thing I would do is shut the fuck up defending myself and listen for the facts that may come out of that and acknowledge that just maybe Mike South is simply trying to tell us what everyone already knows but nobody will acknowledge.

Im not saying that I speak for anyone but myself but the evidence bears out that a whole lot of people seem to agree with me, nopt because I am saying it but from their own experiences with the FSC. Telling them that they are all wrong as well, isn't going to solve your problems.

TheDoc · 12-08-2008, 12:51 PM

Wow that was a lot to read...

I really feel at Heart the FTC is doing what they can, but I'm not stupid enough to think that people haven't taken advantage of the situation either.

Just a note though, the FTC getting someone outside our industry to lobby for us at that price is just stupid. We are "only" a 12 billion total industry that only scraped together $1 million. Hello people.. wake up, we aren't that big when our biggest companies are only in the 500m range.

I really don't think someone ran it wrong, or people stole anything, or whatever.... but I do think it's ran by a majority group of people that really have no expereince.

And online porn didn't kill mainstream porn.. It was dieing before Online came around, pfft. and it's bigger than mainstream ever has been or will be. Same bullshit has been said for 35 years, as one medium replaces another..

tony286 · 12-08-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connor

Heh... he probably didn't bother to refute the points because this thread is just another GFY mob. The "facts" in this thread are SOOOO far from reality that it's laughable. Most of you have your pitch forks and torches out, and you're not going to listen to reason.

Mike South... by now most of you who know this guy HAVE to know this is what he does for a living. He stirs shit up. And he's made a little niche for himself by spreading hate towards the FSC. And it's not hard to find haters. What he's doing is a disservice to the entire industry, but not only does he NOT seem to care, so many of you are going along with it. And you should all really stop, take a breath, and re-evaluate.

I could sit here all day and explain why Mike is wrong, but not only would it just be one guy on a message board against another, it would be a waste of another day, so it's pointless and I have other things to do. So I'm out of this thread. But I will extend this offer. If Mike South wants to give me a call, I'll be more than happy to talk to him by phone and tell him what I'm saying here... that he's causing harm to the industry, and I'll tell him why.

Connor I have alot of respect for you. But Mike makes his living doing this? You dont know Mike. I also joined fsc they were going to protect us and my level of protection was no different than people that werent a member. The only case that had any success with 2257 fsc had nothing to do with. After a while besides playing with piracy they have given me nothing to say it pays to be a member.
I watch pundits deep fry us and have never seen a face from fsc on tv defending our industry.
Also as far as giving 1 percent to them I dont think so. They get money for free then there is no effort to work harder. I also dont think we are a 12 billion dollar industry.

mikesouth · 12-08-2008, 02:14 PM

ya what tony404 said Im not makin any money bashing the fsc...not one of you fuckers has sent me a paypal, but on the other hand you prolly didnt send any to the FSC either.

topnotch, standup guy · 12-08-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anal Hobbit

The Free Speech Coalition is Anal Hobit Approved.

Nuff Said.

Well, that settles it then.

Case closed.

Big Red Machine · 12-08-2008, 03:08 PM

I was shocked how quiet the FSC was during Max's trial. I thought it was their time to shine..to fight. Did they do anything?(serious question)

mikesouth · 12-08-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Red Machine

I was shocked how quiet the FSC was during Max's trial. I thought it was their time to shine..to fight. Did they do anything?(serious question)

They laid low

TheAmericanCannibal · 12-08-2008, 05:00 PM

I agree with the post earlier that said that porn was dying prior to online.
I can tell you that when AVN comes out and cites grandiose numbers that we as an industry are doing $12B in sales it wasn't anywhere near the actual number in revenue.
I'd like for AVN to tell the industry how they came to that conclusion.

Second, AVN's Paul Fishbein would respond to every media request asking about the porn biz- and he'd say " the biz is thriving more than ever, and that there were over 15,000 movies made last year!"

I believe that was quoted in Newsweek.
Let's think about this for a minute.

15,000 movies made in one year- just the video companies here in Chatsworth alone!

Did you guys really think that 15,000 movies a year wasn't enough?

How do people think that they can corral 15,000 movies with over millions of hours of footage and it wouldn't end up in the hands of bad people?

If there were 15,000 guns sold here in Chatsworth last year- I'd think we'd be expecting a HUGE problem with gun related crime wouldn't you?

Yet while the industry standard would crow about these sensational numbers they reported, who was minding the store here in the Valley?

No one.
Now the internet companies are raping and pillaging the studios for the last bit of content they can gobble up and the studios one by one will all be closing up shop here or moving offshore.

AVN should be more responsible along with the FSC IMHO

12-06-2008, 12:31 PM	#51
DaddyHalbucks A freakin' legend! Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada USA Posts: 18,976	Trust, transparency, and accomplishments are important when you take people's money. __________________ Boner Money Last edited by DaddyHalbucks; 12-06-2008 at 12:32 PM..

12-06-2008, 12:53 PM	#52
pornlaw Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,747	Okay Mike.... complaining is every American's god given birth rite... If you do not want to give me whom you think is the bastillion of fiscal responsibility of trade industry groups then ... Perhaps a few suggestions as to what you think they should be doing would be great. We all now know what you think they are doing wrong. Since you know... how much should lobbyist costs ? On a federal and a state basis ? Should they have lobbyist in every state or just California and DC ? As far as fund raising goes, we know you wouldn't spend any money on it but then I am sure you would complain they were not doing it. You then come on the various boards and blog about how no one should give money to them and complain that no one does. Hmmm Cause=Effect ??? I can tell you that the FSC offices are in Canoga Park, a lower rent district, instead on Ventura Blvd in Encino. And their offices are basically the size of a closet. No bloat there. Also, instead of renting a board room at a local hotel to meet in, Diane has her staff meetings in my conference room which I donate to them. No bloat there. Please enlighten me with the "How Mike South would Run the FSC ?" Be a part of the solution... if that means disbanding the current FSC so be it, but does that mean you would rather have no trade association or that it would be completely different ? __________________ Michael www.AdultBizLaw.com

12-06-2008, 03:08 PM	#55
DatingGold $6 PER EMAIL JOiN Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 13,185	$1 million isnt much to lobby with. __________________ 9 Years of SOLID payouts and conversions! ADULT DATING - $100 PPS LIVE CAMS - $214 PPS WWW.DATINGGOLD.COM ICQ: 27442303

12-06-2008, 04:54 PM	#58
$5 submissions I help you SUCCEED Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Pearl of the Orient Seas Posts: 32,147	Interesting how this all turned out... __________________ Need To Backup Your ADULT Income? Let me build your YOUTUBE CHANNEL for dirt cheap! For Hire: $3/hour or $400 per month Marketing Specialist Virtual Assistants

12-06-2008, 06:26 PM	#66
TheAmericanCannibal Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,075	Loki- Thas was an excellent post. Kudo's for you and your insight. You and I agree on a lot of things :-)) PS I am not looking to pound on the FSC. I just have always called a spade a spade so to speak. I believe that the FSC is like the UAW. The both are pretty much vestigial right now. Last edited by TheAmericanCannibal; 12-06-2008 at 06:29 PM..

12-06-2008, 04:19 PM	#57
pocketkangaroo Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 8,452	My question is simple, what have they done for the industry lately? Shouldn't be a tough question to answer. They don't have anything on their site of value since 2005 mentioning what they've done. I have seen them in the news losing cases though.

12-06-2008, 05:08 PM	#59
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	I agree with Mike about educating. When some pundit is going to have some anti porn person I dont want Ron Jeremy as my voice. I want an clean shaven person in a suit who is well versed in actual facts. I dont think lobbying does enough I think its more important that fsc should spend 80 percent of what they make in legal be it giving advice to people in the industry having legal battles or actually sending lawyers on their behalf. Hire a professional fund raiser when you consider all the money this industry makes they are collecting nothing. Also stick to a set of principles, leave piracy to someone else. Also the industry has to police itself but this wont happen because as a industry there are too many hidden agendas,its my business I will do whatever the fuck I want types and megalomaniacs.

12-06-2008, 05:14 PM	#60
TheAmericanCannibal Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,075	I'll gladly rep and lobby for the adult industry for half of what any other PR firm would charge. People may laugh all they want- But I never get bad press. I am a spin doctor capable of putting the best MAC lipstick on a pig. I guarantee 100% if people like me who deal with PRESS every sweeps week, and can get in front of celebrities and congressmen and talk to them like real people- things can change. It's just that old guard stigma that is attached to the FSC that they can't shake. I recall seeing receipts from dry cleaners for $100's of dollars and hotel bills Bill Lyon racked up years ago and knew then that this industry was doomed from a lobbying perspective. The other problem is that some of the people who contribute the most to the FSC are felons. That can never help our cause or put anyone in a positive light. I am not saying that these people haven't served their time or have been reformed it is what it is... and something the entire Board of the FSC should already know. The FSC was started to help book store owners an producers of porn. It should have absolutely nothing to do with the internet at all. How can the FSC watchover a global epidemic? They can't. It's like Interpol investigating a kidnaping in Florida. It's not in their jurisdiction. Maybe a bad analogy, but to me it is pretty simple.

12-06-2008, 05:58 PM	#64
TheAmericanCannibal Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,075	Tony I am more affordable than you think :-)) Also I think I look pretty professional in my media appearances. You guys decide Press conference for Virgin Territory Me on Dr. Phil wearing my ASACP PIN!!! ownin Catherine Crier on Court TV https://youtube.com/watch?v=MmZ3XDW0x3k Me on 20/20 http://www.marketingfirm.com/kbmedia.wmv

12-06-2008, 07:09 PM	#68
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	yA KNOW THESE FSC GUYS ALWAYS VOMIT UP THE WHY DO YOU EXPECT US TO BE YOUR LEGAL DEFENSE FUND BLAH BLAH BLAH I will fucking tell you why because when they come around begging for money they intentionally give people that impression they know its a con but the guy forking over his hard earned cash has no idea. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

12-07-2008, 10:18 AM	#73
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	yes i do advocate throwing the baby out with the bathwater in this case. for so long the FSC and its leadership have gained such a poor reputation that it can not be salvaged, plain and simple. you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear, it's just trying to put lipstick on a pig yada yada in this case its best to simply start over and leave the name and the fuck ups behind. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

12-07-2008, 11:47 AM	#75
Redrob Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: In a refrigerator box by the tracks. Posts: 4,790	Over the years, I've heard the arguement before that the FSC doesn't represent "my" segment, i.e. talent, directors, stage hands, editors, webmasters, consumers, etc. The truth is that FSC membership is open to all and provides a lot of information on the website that has been discussed here including mission, strategic plan, and the 2007 annual report. Link to Free Speech Coalition Information Page With Alec Hemly of Xbiz, Adam Lucas of Unzipped Media, Morgan Sommer of Cybersocket, and Tim Valenti (incumbent) of Naked Sword running for board seats, I don't see how the online segment feels under represented. Tim was already on the Board along with Tom Hymes of Xbiz and Darklady. When you, the online community, look into the "FSC" mirror, you will see youself looking back. The some members of the online community may feel that the FSC doesn't act in their best interest: The What Have You Done For Me Lately!!!! Crowd. However, realize that the leaders of the online-community feel that the FSC is a valuable organization, that it is worth joining and participating in, that the online community is well represented on the Board of the FSC, and has participated in the budgetary, planning, and priority setting process. If you don't like the budget, agenda, goals, etc, I would suggest that you join, get active, vote or run for the Board, and help the FSC reach it's goals, and communicate your concerns to Board members that share your interests. Quitters, whiners, and haters who do nothing but bitch about the FSC while offering no alternatives do more harm to our industry than good. It is hard to raise the needed revenues to meet our goals when some folks are spewing their vitriol on the Boards. If you really hate the FSC, do something about it: join and change it, or, create an alternative. Don't be passive.

12-07-2008, 11:54 AM	#76
DonX Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 1,917	I agree, I never heard shit from them either __________________ Monkey Spanking Cash 50/50 Rev Share Program DonX: 300599159 Galleries Click Here

12-07-2008, 12:03 PM	#77
Anal Hobbit So Fucking Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Old Skool GFY Negro Posts: 2,308	The Free Speech Coalition is Anal Hobit Approved. Nuff Said.

12-07-2008, 12:09 PM	#78
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	redrob once again you state the obvious the FSC will take money from anyone and you fail to answer any questions that have been posed tell yall what send me whatever money you were going to give to the FSC I welcome all contributors I will take money from all of you. And I will tell you EXACTLY where it will go. I will use it to pay cute amateur girls to shoot bukkakes for me, I will use it to go offshore fishing and diving and to do things that make me happy. Now you will get exactly the same value for your money that the FSC is going to give you...NONE.... but with me you have full accountability. You know whats its being used for paypal it to mikesouth at mikesouth.com __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

12-07-2008, 08:32 PM	#80
FightThisPatent Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 4,090	I have no crystal ball, but some suggestions based on alot of observations: - mikesouth, run for the board of directors and get elected. The board needs passionate people like you who really do care about the porn industry (like connor and tom) and can communicate and share that energy with others. - the larger adult companies are taking care of themselves. they have the revenue, the offshore coverage and offshore banking. in following the 80/20 rule.. there is still 80% of adult businesses out there that make up a large number, but don't make the combined revenue of the bigger boys. i say have ccbill and epoch raise processing rates by 1% and have that 1% be contributed to FSC. meaning..if you are being charged 12% from CCbill/epoch, you would be charged 13%. Before you start crying about losing money, if you are making $500,000/year, the 1% would cost you $5,000 in a year. If $300M dollars processed in a year were charged 1%, that would give the FSC $3M to really do the PR and legal defenses. As loki brilliantly posted: the brick and mortar companies STARTED the biz NOT US, WE are the "new kids on the block" and WE as a collective have done more HARM then good since our birth. Those that have paid FSC dues and made contributions, truly do understand that money is necessary to fund the fight . The problem is that the greater majority do nothing and wait to others fund the fight which there is little in the coffers. .XXX (start evil background soundtrack here) would have placed a "tax" on all adult businesses that had the .XXX domain, and that money might have gone to (ironically) help the adult industry with much better funding. Porn taxes like what California was trying to pass would have done nothing to help the adult biz out. It would siphon money out of adult and into government pet projects as "found money". Don't forget there have been several congressional bills suggested for a porn tax of like 25%. By forcing those who do not have a merchant account, to have to pay their contributions to fund the industry trade association, is a very small price to pay. I feel that some webmasters may grumble about the 1% and try to threaten (bluff) that they would leave ccbill/epoch, but the reality is these two companies are at the top of their game for a reason, they have their credibility and time spent in the industry. If some upstart comes in to charge less (which many have already), business owners would need to evaluate who is going to keep paying them their money and not fold up like so many processors have. The motto "united we stand, divided we fall" is very much with rosy-glasses. The reality is adult business are following the motto: "divided we stand, divided we fall", in thinking they will take care of their own problems. But federal laws, current and pending, have a broader chilling effect, that the future is more like "divided we stand, united we fall". Fight the 1 if by land, 2 if by sea! __________________ http://www.t3report.com (where's the traffic?) v5.0 is out! \| http://www.FightThePatent.com \| ICQ 52741957

12-07-2008, 09:34 PM	#81
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	FTP Thank you for your words of support, what a lot of people don't follow is I really am passionate about this industry but I am not blind to our problems, particularly the self inflicted ones. I have had a lot of people suggest I run for the board some sarcastically but many more seriously. I appreciate that some of you do recognize that I have a common sense approach and that I would be an asset but the truth is that I dont believe I could fix it. Short of disbanding it and starting over with something new that has a more focused approach and a real plan complete with accountability at all levels including financial. I absolutely disagree with any kind of forced donation because thats why the FSC is the blunder that it is. Any organization should have to earn its members, it keeps them honest and being the Libertarian I am I could never support a hike in already too high processing rates. Lets give an example here I recently turned 50. as soon as I got the opportunity I joined the AARP. Even though I dont agree with all of their agenda I see the value of this organization. It represents me and my interests, there is full accountability, I get weekly updates on what things they are involved in. I even sent them a donation. Same with the NRA and the ACLU I may be the only person on earth who contributes to both. But I know that the money I give is being used wisely. Now the idea behind the FSC is a noble one and I was a member and I contributed as well as donated time in the past. Nobody turned me against the FSC, the FSC turned me against the FSC. I have seen it said here that our industry NEEDS a trade association but that statement is wrong. What our industry needs is an EFFECTIVE trade association that works for the good of the entire industry, from performers to company owners. The FSC is NOT and never has been that organization. You mention .xxx we all know that money would have gone into a black hole called icmregistry who had no intention at all of doing anything other than getting very wealthy off of laws mandating that adult sites use that Tld. Ask yourself this as an industry are we better off, without the FSC? then ask yourself are we better off with the FSC? Most you you probably get the picture here...its irrelevant. We would be better off with a new organization that is trustworthy, accountable and transparent. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

12-08-2008, 09:55 AM	#84
FakeNick Confirmed User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 739	why is it always the same schills defending the fsc on the boards when this sort of shit hits the fan? the industry needs to give them more money for them to do what they need to do.... NO the FSC need to spend more than 75 grand on legal fees, they already had almost 1 million dollars and they pissed it away. rather than giving the fsc more money why dont they just make better use of the money they are already being given! __________________ this is my sig, it is the only one i have which is why it is mine

12-08-2008, 10:02 AM	#85
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	The problem is that the industry has poured money into this hole for many years and have not gotten any results, then they always come back asking for more money, making promises they cant keep, lying and misrepresenting themselves and what they do. When you do that the well will run dry. People have caught on and no amount of PR, at this point will be taken as anything other than more lies. Given that this organzation has had twenty years or so to get its act together and that 20 years or so later it is seen by the people it needs most as fundamentally inept at best and overtly corrupt at worst, well it's time to get rid of it. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

12-08-2008, 10:06 AM	#86
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	And BTW hell will be frozen over indeed before I will give any money to the FSC, either voluntarily or by force. period. and no it's no bluff on my part, for one I have my own merchant account. For another what you are proposing to have CCBill and others do is patently illegal in this country. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

12-08-2008, 11:11 AM	#89
tranza ICQ: 197-556-237 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: BRASIL !!! Posts: 57,559	Cliff notes?? __________________ I'm just a newbie.

12-08-2008, 11:26 AM	#90
notoldschool Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 5,687	If this thing you call the FSC is fighting piracy can someone tell me one site they have had shut down or maybe one they are working on? I would NEVER join a paysite when the big tubes give far more away than ANY Program out there and im even talking about more content than Bangbros and the other big boys. Its a joke and I feel there is NOONE working on it, whatever title they have. __________________ No doubt one may quote history to support any cause, as the devil quotes scripture. -- Learned Hand http://www.bjpenn.com

12-08-2008, 12:15 PM	#93
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	FTP - Ok I see how you intend to do it, it isnt an official donation it comes out of CCBills take but it still doesn't mitigate the point that what it really does is rewards the FSC for nothing and it gives them no reason to be accountable or otherwise improve. It's throwing money at them hoping they improve which history shows us they wont. Conner - I can respect the idea that you think I am wrong for the simple reason that I think you are wrong. Just because I am not a myrmidon who will blindly follow whatever the FSC says is its mantra o the day, doesn't mean I am harming the industry. What I am trying to do is make it better. Constructive criticism. Everytime I have been confronted with deflection (the well what would YOU do thing) I answer honestly, without deflecting. In my heart I know that we as an industry can do a lot better than this organization. We are driven, independent and very innovative. If we spent half the effort to come up with a better trade organization that we do into trying to screw the customer and each other we would have the most effective trade organization in history. Do my commentaries hurt the FSC? Yes, in a word I know that they do, but that alone wouldn't be enough if the FSC wasn't proving my points over and over. If I were ED of the FSC the first thing I would do is call me and see if there was something, anything that could be done to reverse this perception that they are worthless. The second thing I would do is shut the fuck up defending myself and listen for the facts that may come out of that and acknowledge that just maybe Mike South is simply trying to tell us what everyone already knows but nobody will acknowledge. Im not saying that I speak for anyone but myself but the evidence bears out that a whole lot of people seem to agree with me, nopt because I am saying it but from their own experiences with the FSC. Telling them that they are all wrong as well, isn't going to solve your problems. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

12-08-2008, 12:51 PM	#94
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	Wow that was a lot to read... I really feel at Heart the FTC is doing what they can, but I'm not stupid enough to think that people haven't taken advantage of the situation either. Just a note though, the FTC getting someone outside our industry to lobby for us at that price is just stupid. We are "only" a 12 billion total industry that only scraped together $1 million. Hello people.. wake up, we aren't that big when our biggest companies are only in the 500m range. I really don't think someone ran it wrong, or people stole anything, or whatever.... but I do think it's ran by a majority group of people that really have no expereince. And online porn didn't kill mainstream porn.. It was dieing before Online came around, pfft. and it's bigger than mainstream ever has been or will be. Same bullshit has been said for 35 years, as one medium replaces another.. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

12-08-2008, 02:14 PM	#96
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,346	ya what tony404 said Im not makin any money bashing the fsc...not one of you fuckers has sent me a paypal, but on the other hand you prolly didnt send any to the FSC either. __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

12-08-2008, 03:08 PM	#98
Big Red Machine Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: XXXBigRed@Twitter Posts: 9,586	I was shocked how quiet the FSC was during Max's trial. I thought it was their time to shine..to fight. Did they do anything?(serious question) __________________ ICQ:475437214

12-08-2008, 05:00 PM	#100
TheAmericanCannibal Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,075	I agree with the post earlier that said that porn was dying prior to online. I can tell you that when AVN comes out and cites grandiose numbers that we as an industry are doing $12B in sales it wasn't anywhere near the actual number in revenue. I'd like for AVN to tell the industry how they came to that conclusion. Second, AVN's Paul Fishbein would respond to every media request asking about the porn biz- and he'd say " the biz is thriving more than ever, and that there were over 15,000 movies made last year!" I believe that was quoted in Newsweek. Let's think about this for a minute. 15,000 movies made in one year- just the video companies here in Chatsworth alone! Did you guys really think that 15,000 movies a year wasn't enough? How do people think that they can corral 15,000 movies with over millions of hours of footage and it wouldn't end up in the hands of bad people? If there were 15,000 guns sold here in Chatsworth last year- I'd think we'd be expecting a HUGE problem with gun related crime wouldn't you? Yet while the industry standard would crow about these sensational numbers they reported, who was minding the store here in the Valley? No one. Now the internet companies are raping and pillaging the studios for the last bit of content they can gobble up and the studios one by one will all be closing up shop here or moving offshore. AVN should be more responsible along with the FSC IMHO