EscortBiz

They dont say if this was a annual 2007 number or total up to 2007

http://global.bsa.org/idcglobalstudy2007/

Question:

Say you created some software how in the world would you protect it or make it very easy to copy?

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AnalProbe

And that does not even include shareware...

Jens Van Assterdam

I love those numbers.

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crockett

It doesn't matter what you do.. With software, they will figure out someway to crack it and use it. Take games for instance, the only games I've ever seen that don't fall victim to theft on a large scale are the ones that require you to log into a main server to play online.

I think maybe in the future cloud storage systems might help because then the software is no longer living on your computer but rather on a the host server that you access. I think that's the real reason behind Microsoft pushing that technology.

I've been getting into game development and see no way to get around the piracy other than make the users log on to play on your servers. Then you will still get password thieves and so on, but they won't last long.

Other wise just either accept the piracy or give it away for free and make money by ads or something.

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EscortBiz

I think that would include shareware hacks?

Why is there nothing that makes it harder to steal this stuff?

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EscortBiz

MS has spent a shitload of money on this problem (they lost a ton of money to it too) funny thing is even if a app is $2 people will search high and low on how to hack it.

I mean think about photoshop alone how much cash they lost.

What about if your game reg required users to be connected and you check reg numbers say every 7 days any with large amount of same registration number you disable? Or something in those lines?

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Iron Fist

You mean I was supposed to PAY for Windows XP? Hmm....

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- Jesus Christ -

The way they calculate the losses is bullshit.

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Amen

TheDoc

You mean, how much money Adobe made from Photoshop being pirated.

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EscortBiz

yes exactly everyone is making a fortune when you rob them, right on!

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woj

It's actually a tricky issue, it costs them no $$ to distribute pirated software, no $$ to support it, yet it gives them benefits... the logic is more clear with software like windows, if it was impossible to copy windows, many people would jump ship and would use linux instead... which obviously isn't good for microsoft... same with most other software, if faced with a choice between giving it away for free or letting customer use competitors product, it's probably better to give it away for free...

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sltr

i always ask designers that i am interested in hiring about their version of photoshop. the large majority of them are proud to tell me they use a hacked version and are happy to send me a key gen or wtf ever it is they use to hack it.

i don't hire them

Barefootsies

You lock them out, just like Strongbox does on pay sites.

Pretty simple concept.

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EscortBiz

Piracy is bad and costly, it costs people their jobs and destroys companies at the min. hurts them from expanding as they deserve, between stolen music movies software and fake handbags (yeah I know) its a planet of billions being stolen every year like its legal.

There is no positives to the companies that are getting robbed.

Online registration became a must with XP I think

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EscortBiz

Only problem I think with software is that the rules are always in some local file, so once someone figures out a good file or someway to go around it your screwed once again.

Im hoping someone that knows something about this can chime in.

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Fucksakes

or you just know ppl that work for microsoft and they give you codes for free ;)

same goes for knowing ppl that work for cell phone companies.. they make you free accounts and sell them, and it last for 3plus months.

there is always a way around this stuff

maybe make games and sell them overpriced.. and than open a company that hacks them and sell them for cheaper.. (real price) making ppl believe they are getting a deal.

crockett

Well the game engine I'm using is able to stream info from the web and even SQL data bases. So it can be set up with the same kind of protection as say a paysite members area.

This means I can just do simple user ID vs IP logs checks ect.ect. Just like you do with a traditional paysite system. The game will be set up as multi player only, so the users won't be able to play unless they log into the system.

I'm also going to be releasing a limited free version, but it will be an entirely different set up, so it couldn't be hacked to gain access for the full game.


As for Photoshop losing money..Well I agree to a limited extent. With PS people hack it just because they can and it's easy to do and easy to get. However I really don't think that relates to direct sales lost. I mean sure there are people whom would buy it if they couldn't steal it. However many users would just use Gimp or the likes.

I think much of the piracy with PS is done buy people that just do it because it's there but I don't think it would lead to direct sales in the bulk of it.

With Windows on the other hand, unless you have a Apple, you almost need it because while the open source OS's are ok for the geeks, not many other want to use them. So with the Windows OS's I think it's theft is heavily related to sales, simple because the people need it.

Then again if MS wasn't charging $200 to $300 for the fucking hacked up OS more people might be inclined to buy it.

I mean I bought XP but to be honest, I'd never buy Vista, not with all it's bugs.

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Sands

I may have a flawed logic, but I would ask "Would these individuals who pirate software actually purchase the software if they couldn't pirate it?" I'm leaning toward "no", and if this is the case, then how can you quantify the cost of piracy?

It doesn't cost the software distributor any money to distribute pirated copies, so there's no money lost there.

The software company doesn't spend any time or resources providing support to owners of pirated copies (I'm not 100% on this, though).

The software company may even derive benefits from these "pirates" in terms of brand loyalty.

With a digital product and digital distribution, it may not be so easy to conclude "we are losing such and such per year" to piracy.

A quick caveat -- I don't feel that this excuses software piracy, but I feel that considerations like these should provide the proper impetus for software distributors to research new ways in deriving benefits, financial or otherwise, from software pirates.

donkevlar

That's such a bullshit number... the vast majority of people who pirate software would have never ever bought or actually needed it.

A 15 year old girl using a pirated photoshop = $700 profit loss?

I don't think so, Tim.

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TheDoc

I never said everyone. I said Adobe Photoshop, and without Piracy, Photoshop would not be as large as it is. Without Piracy some other major photo editor and probably for sure a graphics editor could have taken hold, knocking them from the current kings that they are. Without Piracy, millions, yes millions, could have never tried the software for years, and finally been forced to upgraded when they decided to correct the problem with CS.

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tony286

I think the its than just people who wouldnt pay for it theory is flawed. I went to a photoshop class and the instructor asked a room of about 100 people what they current version of ps was. After he was done he said now who actually paid for it maybe a third of the hands only went up. What I dont understand these big companies are large campaign contributors why they havent pushed for much tougher laws.

d-null

and 1/3rd of those were telling the truth, and they also bought it at a discount student price as well probably

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donkevlar

"Photoshop" has brand name association as good as "kleenex" due to piracy.

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Iron Fist

I use the GIMP

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Sands

I'm not sure how your example elucidates the flaw in my reasoning. In fact, it might even support the idea of derived benefits through brand loyalty of software pirates.

When enough consumers have access to a software product like Photoshop, this creates a demand for for things like Photoshop classes, and with Photoshop classes comes an enhanced accessibility to a product like Photoshop. With this accessibility comes more interest in the product, and theoretically, more paying customers.

Edit: I believe TheDoc is referring to the same concept.

TheDoc

Exactly...

Exactly...


And not to give it all to Piracy, the software is bad ass and has always been worth buying, and lots of people did exactly that.

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gideongallery

the biggest problem with reports like this is that they take the highest cost for all these sales
they ignore the fact that not all the people who downloaded the software would have actually bought the product
and they ignore the fact that some of those downloads are people who are recovering a copy of software that they bought and lost.

The arguement is seriously flawed to say that someone who downloads xp would have paid the full suggested retail for the product. (instead of getting a molp or oem copy).

it sort of like when the MPAA argues that when you download season 1 of lost it is losing the full retail price of the dvd.

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Snake Doctor

I don't condone piracy in any way....but these numbers assume that everyone with a pirated copy of photoshop would have paid full price to get it, if it weren't available for free.

The vast majority of these "warez" users would not use photoshop at all, or use a cheaper alternative (like paintshop)

This is just one example. There are lots of other alternatives out there for just about every piece of major software.

So while piracy is a problem, eliminating all piracy worldwide wouldn't put $48 billion into the bank accounts of software makers.

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tony286

I think more would pay than you believe. Im going to go to a store and steal something and say when they catch me well I wouldnt buy it. Im sure they will let me go. lol

psili

1. Who ever coined "security's a myth" was smart.
2. Cloud computing is fine and dandy for collaboration.
3. I'll be damned if I need an internet connection to open a piece of productivity software to verify my installation each time I want to use it.
4. As other's have said, people who use hacked versions of high-priced, closed-source software; i.e. adobe & ms products, continue to help lock in the majority of the rest of people to continue using such software.

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wootpr0n

Piracy doesn't cost any companies anything.

The people who pirate software wouldn't buy it if they couldn't pirate it. Businesses who are afraid of lawsuits always buy their software. End users can't always afford.

So if anything, piracy promotes the use of your software.

And a company like Microsoft has nothing to worry about; 95% of the world's computers are running Windows, and when you buy a computer it already has Windows on it and Microsoft took their money.

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donkevlar

Stealing physical things costs the company money... you can't compare the two.

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EscortBiz

A bunch of tainted brains, stealing is stealing dont you get it? Who cares if they would or wouldnt buy it!

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Socks

.... or even unzip the software.. So much of it just gets traded for the sake of trading.

Sands

Let's use a hypothetical example:

You, EscortBiz, create and distribute a software called EscoDraw for $10.00 per copy. It's a promising graphics arts application that's quickly becoming popular because of some nifty features and ease of use. You distribute this product digitally, which means you don't have any overhead in terms of printing, packaging, and shipping physical discs. You set up a support center that verifies the legitimacy of a user's EscoDraw installation, and so you aren't spending any time or resources to provide support to freeloaders.

Now, let's say that 500,000 copies of EscoDraw have been installed on user's computers, but only 10% of these users actually paid for it. That would mean you generated $500,000 dollars. At first glance you would say, "but I lost 4.5 million dollars to piracy!" For the sake of this example, we'll assume (and it certainly is a flimsy assumption) that this pirated 4.5 million dollars is a measurable loss.

Let's fast forward two years. You've released another version of EscoDraw, and it's become the gold-standard in graphic arts applications. There are now "The Complete Idiots Guide to EscoDraw" and "Learn EscoDraw in 24 Hours" books. There are high school and college courses that teach EscoDraw, and now large media firms have adopted EscoDraw. Pirates and legitimate users alike have created unofficial support forums and tutorials for EscoDraw. Your software has become so popular that even if, still, only 10% of users actually paid for their EscoDraw copies, you now have 2,000,000 users. So for this new version of EscoDraw, you would rake in $2,000,000!

Let's rewind this example for a second and say that instead of allowing those original 450,000 users to pirate your software during its' initial release, your software came with killer DRM that was uncrackable, and so the only users with the first version of EscoDraw are those 50,000 users who paid. With a smaller user base you would not generate as much exposure, there probably won't be any "Complete Idiots Guide to EscoDraw" books, no unofficial support forums and tutorials (since all paid users have access to your support resources), and no high school/college courses that teach students how to use EscoDraw. In other words, your software would not be as accessible, would not be as popular, and therefore would not be as profitable. You may have saved yourself from that "loss" of profits from the freeloading 90%, but in the long-run you might not grow as prosperous due to a stale user base.

You ask, "who cares if they would or wouldn't buy it?", and I say, "anyone who understands that they can turn this negative aspect of digital distribution into a long-term positive."

Again, this is not an endorsement for software piracy. It's an endorsement for a forward-thinking mindset and long-term business strategy.

Paul Markham

Great post.

There are ways to stop it but it needs figuring out and takes the will to stop it online. Maybe things like banning advertising on sites promoting illegal sharing or even just banning the sites all together. Maybe even amending the TOS on the domain registration would help. If you promote theft of goods or violation of copyright you might lose your Domain. Let's see Torrentspy get around that one.

And yes it would need something this draconian to be effective. Add $48 billion to the money lost in music, porn and films and you can see why it needs to be draconian. Will anyone have the balls to do it?

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Paul Markham

About the most stupidest logic I have heard. So I was not going to pay you for your traffic so I can steal it. This also goes for your car and anything else I want to steal from you. You said it was all right so it must be fine in your book.

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Paul Markham

Exactly...



Exactly...

Exactly. And if lots of people did not buy it you would not be able to steal it. It would not exist. Exactly...

People who steal things like software are always coming up with the same weak stupid arguments. Even to the effect of it should be free so they can make money out of advertising or running classes. Bottom line is they leech off those who do buy and pay for the product to be produced in the first place. Exactly...

They care. Because if we did not pay for it they would not have it to steal or it would not be as good. The thieves need us to buy so they have it to steal. Then they think up bull shit reasons it should be free.

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travs

piracy shmiracy

cess

Well that's completely untrue. Take some of the latest video games for example. Quite a few gaming companies are completely frustrated or just flat out stopped making games for PCs. Instead they only release them on console systems or release them on PCs much later. It's not easy pirating games on console systems. So games make these companies an unbelievable amount more when released on consoles vs PCs.

That excuse is used a lot by pirates, "oh I wasn't gonna buy it anyway and neither was anyone I shared with on p2p". That just helps them sleep better at night. Instead of sharing it on p2p, they should've just stole it from the store, that would've cost the company less. There's a good reason it would cost you almost nothing in court for stealing software vs what it would cost for pirating and sharing.

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TheDoc

All your research and knowledge really shows up in this post. So you are saying you have never downloaded pirated software and then purchased it?

Knowing that you have... and so have millions of others, and even Adobe as admitted that Piracy built them, it funds them. They ALLOWED the piracy to happen, they created holes in the software to make it easy, they provided it broken up to fit on discs.


You "ASSUME" all piracy is bad, when in fact is isn't. It's bad someone steals from you, it's not bad when you allow it to happen. Every basic marketing concept can be applied to Piracy, and yet our Industry tosses it all out the door.


What's SO funny is you people think Piracy is a one way door. People steal, money is lost, nobody ever buys if they can get it for free, ever. The logic on that is utterly stupid.

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tony286

You know I respect you but I think you think that way because your work has never been pirated. So its easy to feel that way if you dont actually produce the content or the software.

DamianJ

Couple of issues here Paulie.

a) How do you propose making the torrent sites stop selling advertising? Ask them nicely?

b) Google does what the Piratebay does. It points people to where illegal content is. Neither HOST the content. They just link to it. Google 'cs4 master edition torrent'.

OH NOES! Links to torrents for the new photoshop.

So we have to tell Google they can't sell advertising anymore?

Who is going to 'ban' these sites and what are they being 'banned' from exactly?

Paul, you don't really believe the figures from this do you? I mean, you really think every pirated copy of a porn title, album or copy of PS represents a lost sale?

You have heard the MPAA actually ADMITED to fudging these figures anyway?

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/01/22...-to-lying.html

And who do you think has the power to impose your awesome ideas for stopping selling ads, banning sites and altering ICANN ToS?

The Great God of the Interwebz? After all, it is just a series of tubes, right?

CAVEAT: I am not condoning piracy, I am just asking Markham exactly how he sees his brilliant plan being implemented.

beemk

then they modify the software to disable that feature.

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DamianJ

Oh Paul. I know it's hard to grasp all this.

Fortunately someone made a really easy picture to help explain it to you.

Hope this helps.

All the best.

Damian



CAVEAT: I am not condoning piracy, I am trying to help Paul understand that it is not the same as taking something physical from someone.

TheDoc

I have owned exclusive paysites for 10 years, a couple studios, plugins for paysites, and dvds. I also own several scripts and templates, which I sell and yes all have been pirated. And I have been partners in different Software. The only reason my scripts may not be pirated is simple, people buy them because they can't build them, so duplicating them isn't a cake walk because they are built around peoples needs.

I have also worked with pirated traffic pretty much since I got into the business. Starting with irc and newsgroups, p2p networks, social sites, all types of forums, and even a tad in torrents and even tubes. We pirated our own content, pirated our own software to get more exposure, even templates for different things pirated out by me once I finish, to produce traffic to my blog.

I really understand piracy, I know some piracy is straight up bad, I know sometimes it straight hurts and can kill something before it even has a chance. Often, that is needed. If open source free software companies worth millions or hundreds of millions can do it, with easy piracy.... The lesson is, piracy filters out the shit products/sites to leave only the good shit.

If you DRM your content, you should still pirate it. The difference is, you control what is being pirated, how it's being marketed, and how fast it gets out.

Piracy creates type in traffic, it gets people talking about your products all over the Internet who would have never seen or found it other wise. It's a kick ass marketing tool that owners have more control over than they think.


Piracy isn't a way one door of death.

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Paul Markham

You make it illegal for US companies to advertise on the sites. Not easy but not impossible.

Yes it would include Google, why not?


If I forget to pay for a domain it comes down. Very fast and very easy.


For someone who does not condone piracy you seem to think it's not as bad as it is.

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Paul Markham

Shows truly how wrong you are. Piracy is stealing jobs, careers, money and the possibility of making the Internet the awesome tool it could be for commerce and the world.

How physical do you want it to be?

TheDoc I have never knowing used pirated programs, music or films. One of my programmers was and he was instantly dismissed and his hard drive was gone through with a fine tooth comb. You would not think it so good if people could steal your programs. Maybe I should, get a programmer here to adapt them and start distributing them for free. Just charge to adapt.

You can speak to Damian because he says it's nothing physical. Damian that would be cool wouldn't it as it's not physical.

Stick to card tricks.

I never said it would be easy to stop the pirates, but if it's not done we who do pay can expect to carry the leeches for ever. Ever thought without you leeches we would be getting it cheaper or better?

No it could never happen because you don't hurt sales.

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sltr

if adobe was not concerned with photoshop piracy they would have never created photoshop elements, list price <$100.

also, intellectual property is an intangible asset protected by law from theft so the piracy isn't stealing argument doesn't hold water.

TheDoc

Do you think when you opened your paysite you had the skills to market it, brand, sales, ect? Do you think your name as a good content producer was good before you opened your first paysite? Good enough, that pirates help expose your work to millions that wouldn't have ever otherwise been able to ever, ever... find out about 'you'?

See, people don't just leech, they buy too. They get exposed to new things, from buying and leeching. I can give you an example.

Let me show you what a leech does. I found out about the cartoon named Alucard, I found some clips on Youtube. I found out that we have 2-3 different versions of the same cartoon. Researching, I found an illegal tube site. I watched the two versions on that site.

I went out and purchased the Japanese series of the DVD's. That same Website has exposed me to cartoons I have never heard of or saw before and had no possible chance of finding or knowing if I like them. And that same illegal site, got me to buy the DVD's, entire series of several cartoons.

Posting examples of my code gives me more exposure, that's why it has been posted before. If you can find a coder that can understand what I do, then he doesn't work for you.


If Piracy is the death of all for you. Why don't you spend the money to DRM your content? Every legal TV source online uses DRM, without issue, and you can offer downloads.

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