[Labret]

ControlThy

I don't understand why they have not tried to launch larger attacks against Israel in the past. Or maybe they did and they failed, you never know since alot of information is kept from the public.

hahmike

hmmm

ok, i don't exactly follow the whole middle east shit, so excuse my ignorance

why do you root for palestine and never isreal?

i guess the media has led me to believe that palestine is a bunch of terrorists, and isreal are innocent victims.

thats ok, i can live with the media bullshit. not like i believe everything i read. or at least i try not to.

i'm sure you'll correct me on this. but like i said i hardly follow the whole issue so here are my 'ignorant' viewpoints: it seems that the palestinians, i believe most are muslim, are wanting their land back which they believe allah gave to them. so maybe, lets say they get it back. these are the same people that cheered on sep 11. once isreal topples... there is nothing to stop these people from bringing their religious ethics (allah said this, allah said that, i own this because allah said so) to other parts of the world?

seems like the situation where two kids are fighting - the one that ends up in tears is always the one that gets sympathy.

that is my viewpoint. i'm not educated on the topic so those that are, consider the fact that i'm calling it from an outsiders point of view. maybe it is a crock of shit... if so, tell me. but no need for name calling, boys.

i guess it comes from the fact that i hate "not understanding" things.... so maybe someone can help me understand why palestine is supported and isreal aren't... as i WOULD like to have an understanding of the conflict

hahmike

in other words, educate me.

Dildozer

Carpet bomb Palestine

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ControlThy

Correct, the Palestinians are fighting to get their land back which they say belongs to them.

Problem is that history is rather "vague" about this 20,000 SQ KM piece of land as it has been conquered by Arabs and Christians many times.

There is strong support for Israel in the US, however in Europe there seems to be a bit more support for the Palestinians - this can all be explained by looking at history.

A nice definition of Israel:

"An ancient kingdom of Palestine founded by Saul c. 1025 B.C. After 933 it split into the Northern Kingdom, or kingdom of Israel, and the kingdom of Judah to the south. Israel was overthrown by the Assyrians in 721."

I am sure mr. Labret can educate you more on this subject as he seems informed about the history.

[Labret]

My Feeling About Israel In A Nutshell by Labret.

I am afraid you have it backwards. Zionists are the ones who believe the land belongs to them. As a matter of fact they have a book to prove God gave it to them... they call it the Torah, we call it the Old Testament.

Way back when, AD70 to be exact, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, a vast majority of their Temple, and subsequently scattered the Israelites into the diaspora. The Holy Land changed hands many many times in the 1900+ years since that time.

Fast forward to WWII, newly freed from the labor camps, many Jews found themselves homeless and living in what were called Displaced Persons camps all over Europe. They had no place to go. A movement began in those camps and in the United States, to return their people to the land that God had given them.

Problem is, this British controled that area now, and were not going to let anybody in.

So through Jewish terrorist organizations, the Haganah, they began illegally flooding Palestine with Jewish immigrants and committing acts of terrorism against the British. The massive flood of illegal immigrants meant to get more Jewish influence in the area. Before this time they were a minority with little or no voice.

It worked. The British were pressured enough and we see the beginning stages of the creation of Israel and the subsequent displacement of its inhabitants. Who you now see strapping explosives to their asses.

We have a people crying about terrorism, when they have used terrorism to their advantage all throughout their history. There would be no Israel without Zionist terrorism. The Torah outlines many instances of genocide committed by the Jewish. Terrorism and violence run deep through Judaism.

They do not belong there. Period. Their only claim to the land is a book written 3 years ago.

ControlThy

More history.....

After the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1, the British took control of Palestina. They issued a declaration that would give the Jewish people a homeland. The Arabs obviously were not happy with the non-Arab neighbours so they started attacking the Jews.

In 1936 a British commission recommended to divide the country into an Arab and Jewish region. The Arab's did not agree with this recommendation however the Jews did.

In 1947 the British could no longer manage to run Israel and they turned Israel over to the UN. The UN divided the country into 2 and once again the Arabs disagreed.

You could conclude that the Jews are in the right as they agreed to the partitioning of Israel 2 times, however to form a complete opinion about this subject you have to go back to where it all started.

Who were the first that lived there?

ControlThy

Labret,

Can you tell me, using your source(s), who the first people were that lived in the land Palestina?

[Labret]

The Canaanites, whom the Torah clearly illustrates were completely wiped off the face of the earth by the Jewish people to make way for their "homeland".

We call that genocide.

[Labret]

And if you want to take it to the level of absurdity, they have found Neanderthal remains as well as very very old homo erectus remains. And I doubt they were Jewish.

What exactly do you think the Exodus was about?

Am I the only one who payed attention in sunday school?

RATBOY

Now I hate to be political EVER. Having said that, I tend to go along with Hilary Clinton's view of forming a separate State. Boy was Bill pissed when she said that!

ControlThy

Well lets stick with The Canaanites for a moment since as you just said, it would be absurd to start talking about Neanderthal and the era before the Homo Sapiens.

The Canaanite culture was from 3000 to 1200 BC so that would be early bronze age as starting date.

The Canaan was their homeland and they were conquered by the Israelites around 1000 BC.

ControlThy

So we could present as fact that the land called Israel or Palestina currently under dispute, officially belongs to the Canaanites.

Jon

Goddamn i love how assholes try to blame the jews...

answer me this then.. if the arabs all declare eachother brothers and all that other crap, why arent the neighboring arab lands taking in the "refugees" that live in the palestinian camps?

the reason they are in these camps is because they tried going into israel with the rest of the arab nations and tried to kill all the jews and take the land for themselves. the problem with arabs is they are never happy. there have been so many tries to make peace, but when an amazing offer comes their way, they are never happy and want more.

lets not forget that on sept. 11th these "poor" palestinians were out in the street and on their fucking rooftops CHEERING on Al-Qaeda for what they did to "the american dogs" as we are referred to.

i really cant understand why the media doesnt see this as a threat to the USA one day. We've been attacked once, it was horrible, and i dont doubt that there are terror networks in america either. if people keep on siding with a nation run by a terrorist, who has a terrorist wing, and who preaches terrorism on his jihad tv bullshit, then what makes you think this shit will ever stop?

which brings me to conclude this post with something ive been saying over and over.

the solution:
since you cannot argue with a suicide bomber, or a network that's motto is either die or win (reminds you of another enemy we fought in WWII, and look how that had to end) how do you conquor them or get them to halt their actions. so here are just two easy ways.

1. announce to the arabs that if you martyr against civilians using terrorist methods, such as suicide bombs, shooting civilians in the street, beating to death two young boys in a cave, or just plain bombing the world, we will bury your remains in pig's skin so you cannot go to heaven. sorry ;]

2. one word... NAPALM -- Bring it back!!

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[Labret]

I can see where you are trying to go with this, and you are taking what I said the wrong way.

My point with the Canaanites was only to show 1 instance out of many where Judaism advocates genocide.

A people so hellbent on playing the eternal victim to the world at large, are themselves guilty of every single crime they accuse everyone else of perpetrating against them. The Jews are not sheepish little victims. Not by any means.

ControlThy

I can assure you that I can be completely objective in this matter as I am not Jewish nor Arabic.

I am just interested in going through the history of this fascinating piece of land and trying to find the early cultures that once inhabited it. This is one of the most fought for pieces of land in the world.

[Labret]

Funny how you address NONE of the statements I made regarding the existence of Israel. The ENTIRE reason the shit is hitting the fan in Israel right now. And I havent even touched the theological issues behind this conflict.

All we got from you was a semi-literate anti-Arab rant.

Yes, we know Americans dont like Muslims and Arabs. I dont particularly like them either.

HOWEVER, unlike most people... I can understand why they are pissed and willing to die to blow up an Sbarro packed with Israelis. You cannot. All you see is angry Muslim. Nothing more nothing less. And that is ignorant.

Have you ever stopped to think about why they are angry? Evidently not.

ControlThy

Oh and Labret, you are one of a small group of people who actually try to find the motive behind things.

The masses only listen to what their governments and TV stations tell them and form their opinion on only the information of 1 side.

jammyjenkins

Labret -- you are frighteningly rational

That said, you do rant on (many) occasion, and sometimes I think you just talk utter shite ...

But I do actually agree with about 90% of what you say.

Scary shit.

Hooterdog

War has always determined borders. When you lose land to your enemy in a war, you stop calling it your own.

Frank W

Another example of the principle you described with this post:

Many black activists are either ignorant of or in denial about the extent of black participation in the American slave experience. Blacks owned slaves to a degree way out of proportion their population in the South. Indeed, many of the more brutal and larger slave owners were freed/free blacks.

http://americancivilwar.com/authors/...laveowners.htm

Which illustrates again... If "victims" were given a chance, they easily become "victimizers."

Early Zionist movements predating Theodore Herzl suggested a Jewish homeland...not in Palestine but in the Caucasus. While I can sympathize with Jewish history [the typical European pattern is a. they get invited in to bolster trade and provide financial services since the Papacy forbad Christians from lending with interest b. when the local merchant class gets up to speed...kick out the Jews c. shakedown the local Jewish community for cash...specially during Easter] I cannot sympathize with using "victimhood" as a cover for agression.

However, as unpalatable the whole victimhood approach is I still believe that Israel has the right to exist solely due to one basis--they conquered the region. They got in through the Balfour Declaration and they expanded and maintained their presence through the use of arms. There seems to be a double standard when it comes to Jews' experience with expansion of territory through conquest.......hell, Germany was shrunk down after it lost WW2, why can't Israel increase its size after beating its Arab enemies? Throughout history, countries increase in size through conquest. Hell, there's even precedent for Israel to kick out all Palestinians [see mass German migration from newly annexed territories after WW2].

The reason for the double standard, rightly or wrongly, is a global anti-colonial sensibility. Started in the 20's under Wilson's principles ["right to self determination"] and infused with 60's ethnic awareness. If this was the 1800's, the Palestinian problem would have been "solved" a while back. The fact that it still exists is a testament to either Western nations' evolving sensitity to ethnic politics or a lack of political will.

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[Labret]

Interesting post as usual Frank.

And believe it or not, I agree with you to a certain extent.

If Zionists had in fact used traditional conventional means to fight and win the area, then yeah, maybe I would have a little more sympathy for Israel. But the fact remains they did not. It was basically handed to them and then they basically defended it... with great success.

Thats all fine and dandy.

Israel exists, whether I like it or not. And with the backing of the United States, I am sure it will remain for some time.

All I am saying is I understand why the entire Arab world is pissed off. You would have to be blind not to see it. Both sides have a beef, I just feel that the Arabs have a more legitimate beef. A substantially more legitimate beef.

But ignorance of history, combined with a media and cultural bias towards Israel, creates the sort of atmosphere we see here. Any talk against Israel or Jews and you are a Arab loving anti-semite. When the simple fact of the matter is both sides are fucking idiots. I would just as soon put a bullet between the eyes of a militant Muslim as I would a Zionist.

But the sort of puppet ignorance I see displayed by people like NightChatdotTv I find nauseating to the point of violence.
And that is 99% of the reason I argue the points I do. Neither side in this conflict is innocent.

I am only hoping one side wipes out the other.

If Israel ever lost our support, its not 40s or the 60s anymore... they will lose. And lose bad.

And believe it or not, often times I feel its fucked up that Israel just cant waltz into occupied territory and level it to the ground and kill all its inhabitant. It war, and I dont believe in war crimes. If you are going to conquer a people, remove them entirely. Dont pussyfoot around. But I also want them to do it because I know it will inflame the Arab world to the point of a massive war against Israel. One that the United States would inevitably be drawn into. And when Americans start dying to defend other countries... Americans actually start to listen.

I am of the opinion that Israel is always going to be the loser in this conflict.

So long as there are militant Muslims on this planet, there will be attacks against Israel. And the more time goes by, the more likelihood of a massive devastating attack like the one mentioned in the article I posted. Only a fool could not see it coming.

Like I always say... they better pray to Elohim that the crazy fuckers never get chemical or biological weapons, because you know where they will eventually end up.

And I will applaud the day it happens.

Fletch XXX

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Theo

aliens,there's a whole conspiracy theory behind it.

foe

Palestinians are a bunch of terrorists 60% support suicide bombings 80% support Saddam Hussein

ControlThy

I don't think this will help Hahmike alot with his question and his request for more information about the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

Direct me to one article or report that shows these figures as being accurate and researched please.

jammyjenkins

And 95% of people called foe are idiots.

I applaud you on your use of random statistics.

eblastics

Fuck Israel.

How would you feel if an American Indian knocked on your door, told you their ancestors lived their 2k years ago, then threw you out because they had more money & power than you?

The US politicians tonue Israel's ass because if they don't, their contributions might diminish come reelection time. The media is all owned by Jews, so they're biased by default. Most Americans simply don't know the facts so they root for whoever their favorite news anchor seems to lean towards.

When an Israeli fighter jet kills 11 children on a residential street in Gaza, it's an "unfortunate incident", but when an Israeli is killed by a Palestinian, those "baby killing Arabs are murdering terrorists and the scum of the earth".

zip

I'm not really into what happened in history, but I am highly concerned about this whole situation. I'm affraid it one day goes seriously out of hand.

I mean, you hear it a couple times a week now; suicide attack from the palestines, Israel strikes back.... I really don't think this issue can't be solved unless it goes seriously out of hand. It can only get worse now.... much worse.....

Gutterboy

The media is not all owned by Jews.

RIght wing politicians kiss Israeli ass because many of them are fundamentalist christians or rely on grassroots fundamentalist organizations for support. Religious fanatics are a very reliable and active voting base. These people not only believe that the Jews are "gods chosen people", they think that that peace in the middle east will usher in the anti-christ, which explains why they are so pro-Israeli self defense but have never supported any peace agreement that had any chance of suceeding.

The degree to which US Middle eastern policy is shaped by people who take the psychotic fantasies found in the book of Revelations as 'gods word' is disturbing.

Gary

Ok, here's a question Labret. Why do you care? I mean, i dont really care who kills who out there cause i got no vested interest in it. You, however, seem pretty excited at the prospect of jews being killed. Why is that Labret? Or should i call you Mohammad labret?

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mika

We will see the true character of Labret when thousands of people will die some day (like he suggests). Maybe he then cheers like some arabs did Sep 11th.

At least he suggests here that he is going to do that when someone gets "wiped out"

jammyjenkins

oh for fuck sake...

have you ever considered that it might have been staged for the 'impartial' US media?

or perhaps have even been library pictures?

try watching arab TV and you'll get the exact opposite propoganda -- 24 hour Israeli soldiers beating arab women and kids

It's all bullshit propoganda (on both sides). Try doing a bit of research yourself instead of just believing everything the New York Times tells you...

mika

damn it you missed the point totally.
1st I dont read any US newspapers..

second, I was only pointing out that Labret said he is going to applaud if chemical weapons will get used.

read the meaning of the post next time more carefully.

I didnt say all arabs celebrated Sep 11th. Maybe no one else except Osama.. ok?

ControlThy

Jammyjenkins,

CNN always tells the truth! ;-)

85% of the population will believe anything that gets thrown at them by the media. People are too lazy to go out and research the background of a conflict like this one.

jammyjenkins

And THAT is what's so fucking scary!

Here we have <a href="http://www.thesun.co.uk" target="_new">The Sun</a> which is good for gossip, but apart from that is a complete pile of shite.

Plus -- it's owned by Murdoch, rabidly pro-US. So is often out of sync with most of public opinion (especially about attacking Iraq), but has such a high readership that it really has sway with the 'general public'.

Perhaps the equivalent would be <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk" target="_new">The Guardian</a> owning USA Today.

[Labret]

Hmmm could be for any number of reasons.

Before I majored in Anthropology, I majored in comparative religious studies. And I eventually ended up minoring in religious studies. I will also be obtaining my MS in Sociology as well. While majoring in religious studies, my emphasis was on the Big 3 monotheistic faiths.

So when it comes to the conflict in Israel, I feel more comfortable discussing it because I can look at it from the macro and micro cultural and historical perspective as well as the theological perspective, which nobody even remotely attempts to discuss on here. Godless bastards. I cant even begin to understand how you ignorant twats can even begin to argue the political aspect of this conflict before you even begin to understand the underlying religious aspect of this problem.

I care because you care. I care because people on here are quick to call me a nazi arab loving bigot. For what? For simply pointing out the obvious. For shouting down the ignorant. And thats fine. Nothing makes me happier than schooling some ignorant fuck.

And quite possibly, I want someone to school me. Educate me if you think I am wrong. But up to this point, nobody has provided anything more than the typical kneejerk rhetoric that has been spewed on CNN and in the classrooms of America for the last 40 years.

So until then... fuck you, and fuck Israel. I am right and you are wrong, and fortunately I can argue my way out of a paper bag. I am here to infuriate the cattle, because I know they are forced to walk away and think about what I have said. They know I am right. You know I am right.

Beastiepoo

Good golly, this AGAIN???

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[Labret]

Exactly.

[Labret]

Fucking Finns.

Everytime a bus goes up in flames, I smirk.
Everytime an Israeli market gets strewn with bodyparts, I cheer.
Everytime a nightclub goes up in flames...

I enjoy watching Israel reap what it has sown.

And when 1000+ Israelis go up in flames, or wiped out by some myserious chemical or biological attack. Guess what I will do?

And what are they being beaten by?

Faith.

Where is your God now?

In the old Testament when bad things happened to the Israelites, it was seen as Gods punishment for the wicked ways of the Israelites.

Why is this any different?

mika

Hey Labret, would you tell me whats the difference between an american redneck who cheers for a mass destruction in Israel and/or Palestine and a towelhead who cheers for a mass desctruction in NYC? Both are primitive persons easily manipulated by their authorities, and media.

SOME ( and I mean SOME) Americans act like nothing really concerns them unless it happens in his own town or country.

cherrylula

Its amazing that there is such primitive, bullshit religious wars going on right now on the other side of the world while we discuss it here online.

I really hope something happens to end some of that bullshit so the rest of the world can progress towards the future with technology and the internet.

Fuck war ($$$), they should be handing out computers and building up our customer base.

[Labret]

Do you think some ignorant redneck understands the political and theological issues behind 9-11? Or does he just simply see odd angry little brown people who worship a strange god?

And I dont even know of any true rednecks who could point Israel out on a map.

As for the "towelhead", odds are he has some inkling of an idea why these things are happening.

And of course they are both manipulated by the media, thats what the media is for. You think it is to report unbiased news of events around the world? Yeah... right.

I am not even sure what you are getting at really.

jammyjenkins

I can't ever see peace in this world ... there's too many idiots (and I include myself there ... on occasion).

At least we can be thankful we don't live in a warzone.

Perhaps we in the UK and US are spoilt because our neighbours are our friends (usually) ... and everywhere else is lots of water!

mika

You hoping for a mass destruction in Palestine and or Israel and even admitting that you would applaud if it happened.
Towelhead hoping for a mass destruction in NYC.
What's the difference?

What if it really happened, you know it's possible!
Will you now publicly confirm that you will then cheer when thousands of Israelis die?

[Labret]

Oh I see... you were equating me with an ignorant redneck? I will only overlook it as its a piss poor insult.

The difference between me and Mahmood Raheem?

His hatred of Israel is grounded in theology. Mine is grounded in common sense.

He is driven by faith, I am driven by greed, marijuana, and cherry coke.

He would like to shoot me in the face, I would like to shoot him in the face.

He probably has a beard. I do not.

I like my women shaved and intelligent. He likes his hairy and ignorant.

You cant compare us because we are from two entirely different worlds.

Yes I will cheer.

Because I will be right. And I like being right.

Again. Israel does not belong there, the longer they stay, the longer they push their luck.

Have you been following the argument or just picking out the good parts?

mika

I just wanted to confirm that you're being consistent. And I see you are. Have fun when those people die.

Strange fetish you have, man

jammyjenkins

He's not the only one

I fuck dwarves

mika

Hehe. That is tolerated