[Labret]

Who let the Christian militia into an area controlled by Ariel Sharon?

He fucking admitted to it jackass.

foe

Sorry had no idea

foe

The Christians lived there though..

[Labret]

You missed the point entirely.

foe

I know I needed to write some sort of comeback though

[Labret]

Ok listen.

If I am the guard of your house, and I let the Japs down the street into your house and let them kill you while I turn a blind eye... who is responsible?

Regardless... I cant believe I am even arguing this point.

Sharon already admitted it was his fault regardless of who he had do his dirty work.

BabeHunter

__________________
Yep

DjSap

This is a little bit closer to the truth.

If US invited Al quaida to come and guard a jewish area of New York and then Al quaida started killing all jews, wouldn't US be blamed for not realizing that this would happen?

drumsicle

Sure he did chief. It was during the time they were trying to brainwash you into loving Jews.

foe

Not closer....


Lebanon was more of a civil war than anything personally I think Israel should have just taken enough territory for security reasons and stayd there.... Honestly Labret has a point they shoudl have not messed there... But your little bit is not closer to the truth.... These two people lived together there for centuries they where two religions, but the same nationality living in one country do you think Israel seriously wanted to massacker innocent people.

[Labret]

If he wasnt responsible for it then why did the Kahan Commission (formed by the Israeli government) find him and Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff at the time, responsible? Both of them were subsequently released from duty by the Israeli government.

You really are clueless arent you?

quiet

wasn't that the name of the moron posting earlier today?

__________________
we'll miss you our friend. RIP

foe

Whats wrong with the name

[Labret]

Kahane I believe. I think he may be referring to Rabbi Kahane.

quiet

ahhh, kahane/grimace.

__________________
we'll miss you our friend. RIP

drumsicle

No not clueless. The Kahan commission was a political entity. The handiwork of the Israeli left.

Sharon sued Time magazine for libel over Sabra and Shantilla and WON.

[Labret]

Wow, vindication!

Do I have to do your homework for you.

Belgium tried to nail Ariel Sharon for war crimes, but failed only because he wasnt physically in Belgium.

http://www.crimesofwar.org/onnews/news-sharon.html

And you should find this more than a little intereting.

http://www.indictsharon.net/case-frame.html

They want him for attempted genocide. Imagine that. Not the peace loving Zionists. Never no way no how.

drumsicle

Yeah that great war crimes tribunal. Next you'll be telling me, that we should give up our guns cause the UN says so. You go lefty.

[Labret]

Since when does pointing out sources during an argument amount to tacit approval of the United Nations positions on personal arms ownership?

I can use Arab sources but I get the feeling you would twist that around as well into some sort of statement about how I accept and approve of sharia or some other equal worthless nonsense.

Anything but actually sticking to the point.

foe

Belgium is far from impartial

Second just because a couple of palestinians tried to sue an Israeli doesnt mean anything.

[Labret]

Sometimes I dont think you pay attention.



Did you read the site, or just glance at the first paragraph?

foe

I didnt read the page, I know a couple of things about Belgium, and have visited it. It is a small insignifant country in Europe which just wants to have more power.

quiet

...

ControlThy

Over 10 million people, good GDP per capita and a landsize 1 time larger than Israel. And the headquarters of the European Union is situated there.

You know nothing.

foe

So are the nato headquarters... Thats all Belgium does though have all these international comitees there..

ControlThy

Foe,

You just tried to change the subject as Labret confronted you with more facts.

What country are you from?

foe

How did I change the subject we are still talking about Belguim

foe

I am from the US

ControlThy

Then surely you think that Israel is an insignifant country?

Their GDP is only 100 billion USD which makes them a small economy.

foe

I think Israel an extremely small country... Amazing how it manages to survive in the middle of 200 million Arabs most wanting to see it destroyed.

Insignifant, dunno how to answer that economically and population wise yes absolutely, but symbolically I think Israel is very significant In 50 years they managed to surpass all of their neighboors economically politically (Arabs living in Israel have more rights that they do in any other middle eastern country) etc. With constant wars, and no natural resources.

ControlThy

Okay, I just think the term "insignificant" is not appropriate to describe a wealthy country with many international organisations based in it.

foe

In the world political arena it still has very little say.

And I am not calling belgium an insignifant country just that it should not be trying to police the world

Libertine

Ok, sorry to say it, but you are just an idiot. No doubt about it. Please stay out of political discussions, since you obviously lack the insight to make a post containing even the most remote resemblance of intelligence.


Now, on to the whole Israel/Palestina discussion. The problem here is obvious. There are two different sides, both of whom are at fault.

Israel:
Israel has a war criminal as a leader. No point denying it. Sharon can be held responsible for what happened in Sabra and Shatila. Israel continues to oppress Paletinians in many ways. Only one example is the continuous destruction of Palestinian economic infrastructure, clearly intended not for the protection of Israeli citizens, but for the suppression of the economic position of Palestinians. Even projects funded by the EU that in no way bring dangers of terrorism along are destroyed with military force.
And, even worse, Sharon himself has said that he does not want peace, since he believes prolongation of the current situation will eventually be in the best interest of Israel.

Palestina:
The Palestinians have a terrorist as a leader. No point denying it. The PLO has always been and will continue to be a terrorist organization. Besides that, they are corrupt as can be, and it really is no secret that Arafat and his friends live in extreme wealth while most Palestinians live in extreme poverty.
It also is almost impossible to miss that fundamentalist organizations like Hamaz do not want peace, and will only stop if they win. They, like the Israelians, consider large parts of Israel holy land and believe it should be theirs.


However, most Palestinians and most Israelians want peace, it's a few relatively small extremist groups that keep this conflict going, by means of violence and propaganda. The feelings of hatred and insecurity caused by this are what sustains the aggression.


Regardless of the past, it is a fact that neither the Israelians nor the Palestinians will leave the area. Therefore, the only real solution would consist of lasting peace.
Unfortunately, in order to reach that goal, the factors that keep the conflict going have to be eliminated. That is, the extremists have to be taken out.

Now, since the whole area heavily relies on the rest of the world for certain essential things, the solution seems obvious. A worldwide boycot would do wonders, because it wouldn't take long before people from both sides would be starving, and they would most likely be a lot more eager to dispose of their leaders if that was the only way to stay alive.
Sure, this would cost the lives of innocent people, however, the current situation is also costing the lives of innocent people from both sides, and there is no indication that the situation will get better in the near future.



Oh, and mic, are you seriously suggesting that gulags are the only solution for muslims? If that is the case, you are a seriously fucked up person. It's like saying concentration camps are the only solution for jews. (and, just for the record: the three biggest murderers in history were Hitler, Stalin and Mao. The gulags Stalin used are in fact very much the same as the concentration camps Hitler used, or the "re-education camps" Mao used)

And on a final note: The Jews and the Palestinians are both semitic peoples. Anti-semitism necessarily includes hatred towards both (and a few others), so anyone siding with the Palestinians for whatever reason is not anti-semitic.

foe

Congradulations you have just summed up what was stated before, however the topic moved on.

mic

No ,I suggest killing terrorist and expel their family and religious clerics who brainwash innocent minds of Palestinians

falafel

I love human rights.
Actually, I'm a human rights fan.
I strongly believe that Israelis has the human right not to be massacred by a suicide bomber in the middle of the street.
I know it's comfortable to sit in your air conditioned room, eating pudding, drinking a Heineken and complain about this awful human rights abuse by Israel.
Well guess what ?
Terrorism can not be beaten by appeasing the terrorists.
It requires fierce action, aggressive measures, hard work & intelligence.
Terrorism can only be stopped by defeating the terrorists and their senders with force.
The US knows it by now.
The UK is starting to understand it.
The rest of Europe will learn it unfortunately the hard way, after the 9/11 scenes will reach its soil - and it will.

Who is more innocent ?
an ordinary Israeli man, woman, kid, baby who just wanted to buy some Ice cream or the family of a suicide bomber ?
Well, this is the choice we're required to take here these days.
Is it moral to leave your citizens to the hands of suicide bombers ?
If the destruction of 5 terrorist's homes and the deportation of their families will deter 50 others from murdering innocent Israelis isn't it my obligation to try and save these hundreds of Israelis that otherwise will be killed if those 50 terrorists will continue terrorizing Israel ?
Is there a different, realistic, functional method of fighting terrorism (and I don't mean running away) ?
If you had a phenomena of suicide bombers in your countries wouldn't your governments have taken any possible measure in order to prevent further terror attacks ?

I'm sure that at the long run the solution to the middle east conflict can only be reached by political means.
As for the short run, meaning right now, the only thing we can do is fighting terrorism with all our power.
90% of the terror attacks are being prevented thanks to the excellent work of our security services who work day and night.
The unfortunate 10% do succeed, but since the the beginning of the new military measures we can identify a sharp decrease in the number of attacks.
I know the attacks will not stop 100%, but I'm sure we can decrease the damage dramatically.

Whenever a serious, realistic, terror free Palestinian leadership will emerge, I will be the first guy in Israel to go out to the streets to demands political dialog, and I'll vote for different leaders if necessary.

Libertine

Actually, I called you an idiot, and went back to the topic at hand (your post about Belgium was too ridiculous to seriously reply to, and the discussion about Israel and Palestina still hasn't finished, if you haven't noticed. some people may be easily be side-tracked to stupid arguments about whether Belgium is insignificant or not, but that's not really the question here).

mic

You are wrong .How do you know? I bet you never beeng there and all your opinion from reading some stupid press...

Libertine

So you seriously believe people should be punished for what others do, not even considering whether or not they actually agreed with the action or not?

And, why are the actions of Palestinian suicide bombers terrorism, and the random acts of destruction and murder by the Israeli military "fighting terrorism"?
Has it occurred to you that there are two sides to the story?
Just because one of both sides has a large military which it uses, and the other has badly organized fanatics which it uses, does not mean the first is automatically right.

jammyjenkins

You cheeky fucker!

We've dealt with Northern Irish violence for decades

the situation is now much better because we are dealing and negotiating with them as a political process

Not flattening their houses

For fuck sake, that was a really stupid comment on your part.

mic

What news channel does you watching? - their family happy when their son blowing up himself and some innocent people - they know what he is doing and support him.This is not innocent bystanders and they deserve to expel.
This is only way to fight terror.

Libertine

This is exactly the kind of thinking that keeps the violence going.
First of all, you talk about "fighting terrorism with force". Now, that force - which is largely directed towards innocent people - is considered the same as terrorism by the victims of it, who, in turn, do the same thing, and keep it going.
Secondly, has that force you are talking about been working for the past years? No, apparently, since the conflict is still there. So how about trying a different tactic?
Third, you talk about the dangers for Israeli's. Now, you should know that during the course of the conflict over 10 times as many Palestinians have died. So, according to your reasoning, they would have even more reason to continue killing innocent people than Israel.
And, finally, don't you see that the exact reason that a serious. realistic, terror free Palestinian leadership doesn't emerge, is that no real attempts for real dialog are being made by Israel? (not to mention the fact that just about all leaders of Palestinian organisations - even peaceful ones - get assassinated by the Israeli military)

Really, both the Israelians and the Palestinians are using the exact same reasoning to not make progress but remain in the current situation.

Libertine

Apart from your obviously wrong assumption (how many Palestinians do you know exactly? I know quite a few and most of them just want the violence to end), you are also forgetting one thing:
Do the Israeli's not react in exactly the same way when their military destroys offices and homes, or kills Palestinians?

Now, why exactly do you think the Palestinians are wrong for doing what they consider as "defending their lands", while Israel is right when doing exactly the same?

mic

Man, I am not tacking about Israeli and Palestinians living outside the region, as I sad before - make a trip - tack to? real" people who live there and then open you mouths - you do not know nothing what happen there...

CDSmith

You are comparing one errant attack to a 50 year continuous war zone? Whatever your reasoning, it doesn't make sense to me. Why would New Yorkers leave? Maybe some did, but that type of attack isn't a usual occurance. There are probably a lot of people that have left NYC to get their wives and kids away from the crime though.

Point taken that you are single. In light of that I don't blame you for making the decision for yourself to stay and fight. I don't mean to be a smartass here, but wouldn't that be one way to put an end to hostilities in the region? Sorry, I had to say that.

But I will also add that for me there would probably come a time when I would be hard-pressed not to go make a better life for myself somewhere else. I wonder if you can imagine the standard of living we enjoy over here? Millions of people all ready to spend over $100 on a pair of running shoes, over $1000 on TV's, etc etc. We're ripe for the picking for smart marketers and business men.



As for dealing with the suicide bombers, how do you punish someone who has blown himself to pieces? (and taken 20 or 30 others with him) ??
Answer: you can't. But I'm sure such a person was no-doubt councelled by others, probably said goodbye to his family and went off (literally) with their blessing. So yes, finding the person's family and mowing down their homes and ruining their lives is certainly one way of dealing with the problem.

But in the end there can probably only be either of two choices.... either Isreal vacates the premises, or an all-out war serves to anihilate everyone in the region.
Which is the better of the two?

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falafel

I resent your language but I do apologize for being insensitive an inaccurate.
The UK had more of its share of terrorism.

Pathfinder

I have basically said the same thing repeatedly. The tactics being used by both sides, are doomed to fail, and only exacerbate the hatred.

In addition some of the tactics used by Israel's military are considered to be War Crimes in contravention of International Law. Terrorism is a crime also but does not fall under the category of War Crimes.

Thus the tactics of Israel will not only excerbate the hatred, but they are becoming known as War Criminals.

foe

Great post

mic

Include in these list religious clerics who support this and all propaganda machine (Palestinian radio and TV) and you will find a way to deal with this (like it was in 1980 - 1990)

foe

Actually I knwo he is wrong In a recent poll 60 % of palestinians support terrorst bombings... I wouldnt call that relitively few