Germany filing criminal charges against Rumsfeld

[SuckOnThis]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...557842,00.html

Just days after his resignation, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is about to face more repercussions for his involvement in the troubled wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. New legal documents, to be filed next week with Germany's top prosecutor, will seek a criminal investigation and prosecution of Rumsfeld, along with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA director George Tenet and other senior U.S. civilian and military officers, for their alleged roles in abuses committed at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The plaintiffs in the case include 11 Iraqis who were prisoners at Abu Ghraib, as well as Mohammad al-Qahtani, a Saudi held at Guantanamo, whom the U.S. has identified as the so-called "20th hijacker" and a would-be participant in the 9/11 hijackings. As TIME first reported in June 2005, Qahtani underwent a "special interrogation plan," personally approved by Rumsfeld, which the U.S. says produced valuable intelligence. But to obtain it, according to the log of his interrogation and government reports, Qahtani was subjected to forced nudity, sexual humiliation, religious humiliation, prolonged stress positions, sleep deprivation and other controversial interrogation techniques.

Lawyers for the plaintiffs say that one of the witnesses who will testify on their behalf is former Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the one-time commander of all U.S. military prisons in Iraq. Karpinski ? who the lawyers say will be in Germany next week to publicly address her accusations in the case ? has issued a written statement to accompany the legal filing, which says, in part: "It was clear the knowledge and responsibility [for what happened at Abu Ghraib] goes all the way to the top of the chain of command to the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld ."

A spokesperson for the Pentagon told TIME there would be no comment since the case has not yet been filed.

Along with Rumsfeld, Gonzales and Tenet, the other defendants in the case are Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone; former assistant attorney general Jay Bybee; former deputy assisant attorney general John Yoo; General Counsel for the Department of Defense William James Haynes II; and David S. Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff. Senior military officers named in the filing are General Ricardo Sanchez, the former top Army official in Iraq; Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the former commander of Guantanamo; senior Iraq commander, Major General Walter Wojdakowski; and Col. Thomas Pappas, the one-time head of military intelligence at Abu Ghraib.

Germany was chosen for the court filing because German law provides "universal jurisdiction" allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and related offenses that take place anywhere in the world. Indeed, a similar, but narrower, legal action was brought in Germany in 2004, which also sought the prosecution of Rumsfeld. The case provoked an angry response from Pentagon, and Rumsfeld himself was reportedly upset. Rumsfeld's spokesman at the time, Lawrence DiRita, called the case a "a big, big problem." U.S. officials made clear the case could adversely impact U.S.-Germany relations, and Rumsfeld indicated he would not attend a major security conference in Munich, where he was scheduled to be the keynote speaker, unless Germany disposed of the case. The day before the conference, a German prosecutor announced he would not pursue the matter, saying there was no indication that U.S. authorities and courts would not deal with allegations in the complaint.

In bringing the new case, however, the plaintiffs argue that circumstances have changed in two important ways. Rumsfeld's resignation, they say, means that the former Defense Secretary will lose the legal immunity usually accorded high government officials. Moreover, the plaintiffs argue that the German prosecutor's reasoning for rejecting the previous case ? that U.S. authorities were dealing with the issue ? has been proven wrong.

"The utter and complete failure of U.S. authorities to take any action to investigate high-level involvement in the torture program could not be clearer," says Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, a U.S.-based non-profit helping to bring the legal action in Germany. He also notes that the Military Commissions Act, a law passed by Congress earlier this year, effectively blocks prosecution in the U.S. of those involved in detention and interrogation abuses of foreigners held abroad in American custody going to back to Sept. 11, 2001. As a result, Ratner contends, the legal arguments underlying the German prosecutor's previous inaction no longer hold up.

Whatever the legal merits of the case, it is the latest example of efforts in Western Europe by critics of U.S. tactics in the war on terror to call those involved to account in court. In Germany, investigations are under way in parliament concerning cooperation between the CIA and German intelligence on rendition ? the kidnapping of suspected terrorists and their removal to third countries for interrogation. Other legal inquiries involving rendition are under way in both Italy and Spain.

U.S. officials have long feared that legal proceedings against "war criminals" could be used to settle political scores. In 1998, for example, former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet ? whose military coup was supported by the Nixon administration ? was arrested in the U.K. and held for 16 months in an extradition battle led by a Spanish magistrate seeking to charge him with war crimes. He was ultimately released and returned to Chile. More recently, a Belgian court tried to bring charges against then Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for alleged crimes against Palestinians.

For its part, the Bush Administration has rejected adherence to the International Criminal Court (ICC) on grounds that it could be used to unjustly prosecute U.S. officials. The ICC is the first permanent tribunal established to prosecute war crimes, genocide and other crimes against humanity.

[Deputy Chief Command]

too long.

[LiveDose]

Germany.... LOL hahaha

[MediaGuy]

I forgot about that, the Bushiites afraid what the ICC could turn up against them lol ...

Who cares about Rumsfeld, he's out... AJ Gonzales isn't immune, though. He's lawyer, but he ain't Secretary of Defense heheh.

[Lazonby]

The Germans are just sour because most of their grand fathers were drunken Russian soldiers with venereal disease and a penchant for gang rape.

[DWB]

There needs to be some accountability for all of these actions. Someone needs to hang.

[ToplistBlog_Com]

Originally Posted by Lazonby

The Germans are just sour because most of their grand fathers were drunken Russian soldiers with venereal disease and a penchant for gang rape.

Couldn't agree more!

[SuckOnThis]

[Lazonby]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

There needs to be some accountability for all of these actions. Someone needs to hang.

What actions?

[Dirty Dane]

He will get death penalty

[SuckOnThis]

Originally Posted by Lazonby

What actions?

Impregnating your mother.

[Lancelot]

I haven't got enough patience to read it

Make a summary for me, plz....

[ElvisManson]

Originally Posted by Lancelot

I haven't got enough patience to read it

Make a summary for me, plz....

Stupid people die.

[Lancelot]

Originally Posted by ElvisManson

Stupid people die.

go fuck yourself, Manson, you just opened this thread, saw a huge article, read all posts and mine as well and thought 'oh, this will suit to reply on and fuck this article, there is no need to read it'....

don't answer...i know i'm right!!!!

[ElvisManson]

Originally Posted by Lancelot

go fuck yourself, Manson, you just opened this thread, saw a huge article, read all posts and mine as well and thought 'oh, this will suit to reply on and fuck this article, there is no need to read it'....

don't answer...i know i'm right!!!!

I reads the article and then summarized it for you....lol

50rry 80u7 y0u3r |u(k

[kenny]

lol

I can see Germany coming to the USA to arrest him

[Webby]

Hard to comment on this... it all depends what the facts of the case are and whether a judge will listen to it.

If it is held to be valid, it could be the thin edge of the wedge in working towards an international prosecution for whatever - tho sounds like a lot of proving of direct involvement to get near that level.

Rumsfeld would not be the first individual in a US admin who has a warrant out for his arrest. Warrants already exist for eg Kissinger - and kinda inhibit his travelling arrangements.

PS This case has nothing to do with Germany - it's an issue which prosecutors have chosen to travel to Germany to present their case since that country recognizes the concept of universal prosecution of serious crimes.

[_Richard_]

This is actually kind of interesting. I've been wondering what the west was going to do in regards to the countless and outrageous amount of warcrimes that we commit.

It is funny, and ironic, that warcrimes would be filed in germany of all places, but seriously. I also thought it was funny that donny's scapegoat is the one who is testifying against him. This is going to be interesting

R

[Lazonby]

Originally Posted by Mr.Sexbankroll

This is actually kind of interesting. I've been wondering what the west was going to do in regards to the countless and outrageous amount of warcrimes that we commit.

It is funny, and ironic, that warcrimes would be filed in germany of all places, but seriously. I also thought it was funny that donny's scapegoat is the one who is testifying against him. This is going to be interesting

R

What warcrimes?

[Babaganoosh]

Originally Posted by LiveDose

Germany.... LOL hahaha

Beat me to it.

LOL @ Germany

[Lancelot]

Originally Posted by ElvisManson

I reads the article and then summarized it for you....lol

50rry 80u7 y0u3r |u(k

Sorry bro!!!
LOL

[ElvisManson]

Originally Posted by Lancelot

Sorry bro!!!
LOL

.. - ... .- .-.. .-.. --. --- --- -.. -- .- -.

It's all good man.

[Webby]

Mmmm... on the face of it, this *may* appear to be a valid claim in that there are provisions already made for any country participating in the ICC to give them first option to resolve any accusations against their own citizens. According to the details already issued, this opportunity to redress complaints has not been addressed within the US. (Who knows, but that is prob part of the reason for a few US soliders to face a court in the US - and avoid possible prosecution on an international basis)

The current status of the US and the ICC is that the US has elected to agree with prosecutions under certain circumstances, but still has an opinion that the US is not going to be the "perp" in such cases. Basically, there is one law for us and another for everyone else.

Currently there is no protection of US troops under the terms of the ICC - this protection was being granted on an annual basis, but has not been renewed because of the Abu Ghraib issue, which appears to be ongoing.

Also interesting in this case is that there are apparently US military giving evidence on behalf of the plantiffs. Who knows where that may lead...

[DjSap]

poor rummy...he was one of the few people i liked in the administration...

[Jack_Daniels]

Originally Posted by LiveDose

Germany.... LOL hahaha

I get the joke but this really shouldn't surprise anybody. Germany was for all intents and purposes effectively emasculated 61 years ago. Nowadays they're more pacifist than Sweden and in the event of a war any country bigger than Luxembourg would kick their ass without even breaking a sweat.

The Germans you're used to seeing in the movies are all dead or in old age homes now.

It's actually kinda sad in a way though no doubt the French sleep a lot better nowadays

[mardigras]

Originally Posted by DjSap

poor rummy...he was one of the few people i liked in the administration...

Colin Powell was the only person I ever saw as likeable in this bunch...

Rummy was well past the expiration date.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by mardigras

Colin Powell was the only person I ever saw as likeable in this bunch...

Rummy was well past the expiration date.

Kinda agree mardigras - Powell was set up and he knows it.

You may remember he was briefed by Tennant and others for a few days before delivering that spewage of "evidence" to the UN and kept questioning the autheticity of the "evidence" - and ultimately assured by Tennant that it was reliable. (That was the point at which Powell insisted that Tennant side behind him at the UN and show his support for the claims)

Got no reason to believe Powell is anything other than an honorable man.

[marketsmart]

interesting, giving it a read now...

[Kimo]

Hey Daddyhalbucks, how much was that bet for?

[TheJimmy]

congrats to all the winners

[DaddyHalbucks]

Originally Posted by Kimo

Hey Daddyhalbucks, how much was that bet for?

Hahaha, this won't go anywhere. Anyone can name anyone in a lawsuit, or for that matter, a criminal complaint. Proving it.. is an entirely different problem.

[EBORG9]

DAMN!!! Now we gotta bomb Germany?

[hydro]

Originally Posted by EBORG9

DAMN!!! Now we gotta bomb Germany?

No dumbass we have to liberate them, maybe they'll give us shiny new bmws or audis as a thank you?

[Phoenix]

im thinking they need to charge bush as well

gonzales should be ousted from any law enforcement duties

he already let those fuckin crooks off i the 80's

why do you think he got his current role?

[Webby]

Originally Posted by EBORG9

DAMN!!! Now we gotta bomb Germany?

But... Before you do, check who the instigators of this action are.

The case is being raised by the US-based Centre for Constitutional Rights and representing a Saudi detained in Cuba and 11 Iraqis held in Baghdad.

The only reason it's being presented in a German court is that their laws allow the pursuit of cases originating anywhere in the world. This is not the first attempt by the Centre for Constitutional Rights - a previous try was made in 2004, but German prosecutors dropped that case.

The Centre for Constitutional Rights argues that Mr Rumsfeld was instrumental in abuses committed at Guantanamo Bay and at Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

The lawyer group alleges that Mr Rumsfeld personally approved torture to be used to extract information from the prisoners.

It is also seeking to prosecute US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and former CIA director George Tenet, among others.

[BluMedia]

Here is a really funny video on Rumsfeld https://youtube.com/watch?v=zmLToYe8nRo

[EBORG9]

What about Dick Cheney? He looses money if the war stops. He is the biggest crook of all. How the fuck you gonna be VP and be a major share holder in the company the supplies the military with equiptment, food and gas?

[studiocritic]

Originally Posted by Webby

Kinda agree mardigras - Powell was set up and he knows it.

You may remember he was briefed by Tennant and others for a few days before delivering that spewage of "evidence" to the UN and kept questioning the autheticity of the "evidence" - and ultimately assured by Tennant that it was reliable. (That was the point at which Powell insisted that Tennant side behind him at the UN and show his support for the claims)

Got no reason to believe Powell is anything other than an honorable man.

Tennant = Tenet, I assume

[Webby]

Originally Posted by studiocritic

Tennant = Tenet, I assume

You assume correct - It's time he changed his name to something sensible

[Webby]

Originally Posted by EBORG9

What about Dick Cheney? He looses money if the war stops. He is the biggest crook of all. How the fuck you gonna be VP and be a major share holder in the company the supplies the military with equiptment, food and gas?

Cheney has immunity at the moment - not sure if that continues after he leaves office?

[L-Pink]

Colin Powell needs to run for president on an independent ticket.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Jack_Daniels

I get the joke but this really shouldn't surprise anybody. Germany was for all intents and purposes effectively emasculated 61 years ago. Nowadays they're more pacifist than Sweden and in the event of a war any country bigger than Luxembourg would kick their ass without even breaking a sweat.

The Germans you're used to seeing in the movies are all dead or in old age homes now.

It's actually kinda sad in a way though no doubt the French sleep a lot better nowadays

You're quite right, the actual German's have no fighting spirit anymore. As you said, 61 years of demonization of themselves does that I guess. That said, despite the lack of will power, they do have a mighty military nonetheless.

[EBORG9]

I agree, Colin is the fuckin man. When Bush went against his recomendation I knew we were fucked, and it was the first time I was ever glad my enlistment was up.
That was an especially hard thing to deal with. On one hand wanting to be with my bros. and fight the fight with them, on the other, having absolutely no faith in this country's leadership, and not wanting to be a part of the fucking quagmire Bush was about to unleash on our military.

Every 1st year private knew at that time , that walking into Iraq with ground troops, was the dumbest decision since Mc Donalds launched Mc Pizza.

Bush needs to be on trail for starting a completely illegal war, and detaining "POW's", completely disreguarding not only the 1952 Geneva Convention that we always throw in everyones face, but the U.S. Consititution.

He is a fucking prick and he never had the intelligence, or the resume' to be President, and he has been making up the rules as he goes along.
I wouldn't walk across the street to spit on him, yet, I would step in front of a bullet to protect him, because....He's the President, and I am an American.

God bless America!

[Webby]

Originally Posted by Chief

You're quite right, the actual German's have no fighting spirit anymore. As you said, 61 years of demonization of themselves does that I guess. That said, despite the lack of will power, they do have a mighty military nonetheless.

The joke is that this case has little to do with Germany - the issue is being presented to German prosecutors in the hope they will accept it since German law permits prosecution of serious offenses irrespective of the jurisdiction of the alleged crime.

The case is being presented by a team of US lawyers seeking remedy on behalf of 12 individuals who claim abuse and torture.

Obviously it is miles away from an actual prosecution, but could be an introduction to the ICC, depending if the case is strong enough - that remains to be seen.