Germany filing criminal charges against Rumsfeld

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  • SuckOnThis
    So Fucking Banned
    • Oct 2003
    • 6844

    #1

    Germany filing criminal charges against Rumsfeld

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...557842,00.html

    Just days after his resignation, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is about to face more repercussions for his involvement in the troubled wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. New legal documents, to be filed next week with Germany's top prosecutor, will seek a criminal investigation and prosecution of Rumsfeld, along with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA director George Tenet and other senior U.S. civilian and military officers, for their alleged roles in abuses committed at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

    The plaintiffs in the case include 11 Iraqis who were prisoners at Abu Ghraib, as well as Mohammad al-Qahtani, a Saudi held at Guantanamo, whom the U.S. has identified as the so-called "20th hijacker" and a would-be participant in the 9/11 hijackings. As TIME first reported in June 2005, Qahtani underwent a "special interrogation plan," personally approved by Rumsfeld, which the U.S. says produced valuable intelligence. But to obtain it, according to the log of his interrogation and government reports, Qahtani was subjected to forced nudity, sexual humiliation, religious humiliation, prolonged stress positions, sleep deprivation and other controversial interrogation techniques.

    Lawyers for the plaintiffs say that one of the witnesses who will testify on their behalf is former Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the one-time commander of all U.S. military prisons in Iraq. Karpinski ? who the lawyers say will be in Germany next week to publicly address her accusations in the case ? has issued a written statement to accompany the legal filing, which says, in part: "It was clear the knowledge and responsibility [for what happened at Abu Ghraib] goes all the way to the top of the chain of command to the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld ."

    A spokesperson for the Pentagon told TIME there would be no comment since the case has not yet been filed.

    Along with Rumsfeld, Gonzales and Tenet, the other defendants in the case are Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone; former assistant attorney general Jay Bybee; former deputy assisant attorney general John Yoo; General Counsel for the Department of Defense William James Haynes II; and David S. Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff. Senior military officers named in the filing are General Ricardo Sanchez, the former top Army official in Iraq; Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the former commander of Guantanamo; senior Iraq commander, Major General Walter Wojdakowski; and Col. Thomas Pappas, the one-time head of military intelligence at Abu Ghraib.

    Germany was chosen for the court filing because German law provides "universal jurisdiction" allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and related offenses that take place anywhere in the world. Indeed, a similar, but narrower, legal action was brought in Germany in 2004, which also sought the prosecution of Rumsfeld. The case provoked an angry response from Pentagon, and Rumsfeld himself was reportedly upset. Rumsfeld's spokesman at the time, Lawrence DiRita, called the case a "a big, big problem." U.S. officials made clear the case could adversely impact U.S.-Germany relations, and Rumsfeld indicated he would not attend a major security conference in Munich, where he was scheduled to be the keynote speaker, unless Germany disposed of the case. The day before the conference, a German prosecutor announced he would not pursue the matter, saying there was no indication that U.S. authorities and courts would not deal with allegations in the complaint.

    In bringing the new case, however, the plaintiffs argue that circumstances have changed in two important ways. Rumsfeld's resignation, they say, means that the former Defense Secretary will lose the legal immunity usually accorded high government officials. Moreover, the plaintiffs argue that the German prosecutor's reasoning for rejecting the previous case ? that U.S. authorities were dealing with the issue ? has been proven wrong.

    "The utter and complete failure of U.S. authorities to take any action to investigate high-level involvement in the torture program could not be clearer," says Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, a U.S.-based non-profit helping to bring the legal action in Germany. He also notes that the Military Commissions Act, a law passed by Congress earlier this year, effectively blocks prosecution in the U.S. of those involved in detention and interrogation abuses of foreigners held abroad in American custody going to back to Sept. 11, 2001. As a result, Ratner contends, the legal arguments underlying the German prosecutor's previous inaction no longer hold up.

    Whatever the legal merits of the case, it is the latest example of efforts in Western Europe by critics of U.S. tactics in the war on terror to call those involved to account in court. In Germany, investigations are under way in parliament concerning cooperation between the CIA and German intelligence on rendition ? the kidnapping of suspected terrorists and their removal to third countries for interrogation. Other legal inquiries involving rendition are under way in both Italy and Spain.

    U.S. officials have long feared that legal proceedings against "war criminals" could be used to settle political scores. In 1998, for example, former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet ? whose military coup was supported by the Nixon administration ? was arrested in the U.K. and held for 16 months in an extradition battle led by a Spanish magistrate seeking to charge him with war crimes. He was ultimately released and returned to Chile. More recently, a Belgian court tried to bring charges against then Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for alleged crimes against Palestinians.

    For its part, the Bush Administration has rejected adherence to the International Criminal Court (ICC) on grounds that it could be used to unjustly prosecute U.S. officials. The ICC is the first permanent tribunal established to prosecute war crimes, genocide and other crimes against humanity.
  • Deputy Chief Command
    Deputy Chief Command
    • Nov 2005
    • 4482

    #2
    too long.

    Comment

    • LiveDose
      Show Yer Tits!
      • Feb 2002
      • 25792

      #3
      Germany.... LOL hahaha

      Scammer Alert: acer19 acer [email protected] [email protected] Money stolen using PayPal

      Comment

      • MediaGuy
        Confirmed User
        • Sep 2004
        • 5500

        #4
        I forgot about that, the Bushiites afraid what the ICC could turn up against them lol ...

        Who cares about Rumsfeld, he's out... AJ Gonzales isn't immune, though. He's lawyer, but he ain't Secretary of Defense heheh.

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        • Lazonby
          Confirmed User
          • Feb 2006
          • 2262

          #5
          The Germans are just sour because most of their grand fathers were drunken Russian soldiers with venereal disease and a penchant for gang rape.

          Comment

          • DWB
            Registered User
            • Jul 2003
            • 31779

            #6
            There needs to be some accountability for all of these actions. Someone needs to hang.

            Comment

            • ToplistBlog_Com
              So Fucking Banned
              • Jul 2006
              • 2065

              #7
              Originally posted by Lazonby
              The Germans are just sour because most of their grand fathers were drunken Russian soldiers with venereal disease and a penchant for gang rape.
              Couldn't agree more!

              Comment

              • SuckOnThis
                So Fucking Banned
                • Oct 2003
                • 6844

                #8

                Comment

                • Lazonby
                  Confirmed User
                  • Feb 2006
                  • 2262

                  #9
                  Originally posted by DirtyWhiteBoy
                  There needs to be some accountability for all of these actions. Someone needs to hang.
                  What actions?

                  Comment

                  • Dirty Dane
                    Sick Fuck
                    • Feb 2004
                    • 9491

                    #10
                    He will get death penalty

                    Comment

                    • SuckOnThis
                      So Fucking Banned
                      • Oct 2003
                      • 6844

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Lazonby
                      What actions?


                      Impregnating your mother.

                      Comment

                      • Lancelot
                        Registered User
                        • Mar 2003
                        • 89

                        #12
                        I haven't got enough patience to read it

                        Make a summary for me, plz....

                        Comment

                        • ElvisManson
                          Looking California
                          • Feb 2001
                          • 5476

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Lancelot
                          I haven't got enough patience to read it

                          Make a summary for me, plz....
                          Stupid people die.

                          Comment

                          • Lancelot
                            Registered User
                            • Mar 2003
                            • 89

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ElvisManson
                            Stupid people die.
                            go fuck yourself, Manson, you just opened this thread, saw a huge article, read all posts and mine as well and thought 'oh, this will suit to reply on and fuck this article, there is no need to read it'....

                            don't answer...i know i'm right!!!!

                            Comment

                            • ElvisManson
                              Looking California
                              • Feb 2001
                              • 5476

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Lancelot
                              go fuck yourself, Manson, you just opened this thread, saw a huge article, read all posts and mine as well and thought 'oh, this will suit to reply on and fuck this article, there is no need to read it'....

                              don't answer...i know i'm right!!!!
                              I reads the article and then summarized it for you....lol

                              50rry 80u7 y0u3r |u(k

                              Comment

                              • kenny
                                Confirmed User
                                • Mar 2002
                                • 7245

                                #16
                                lol

                                I can see Germany coming to the USA to arrest him
                                7

                                Comment

                                • Webby
                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                  • Oct 2002
                                  • 14956

                                  #17
                                  Hard to comment on this... it all depends what the facts of the case are and whether a judge will listen to it.

                                  If it is held to be valid, it could be the thin edge of the wedge in working towards an international prosecution for whatever - tho sounds like a lot of proving of direct involvement to get near that level.

                                  Rumsfeld would not be the first individual in a US admin who has a warrant out for his arrest. Warrants already exist for eg Kissinger - and kinda inhibit his travelling arrangements.

                                  PS This case has nothing to do with Germany - it's an issue which prosecutors have chosen to travel to Germany to present their case since that country recognizes the concept of universal prosecution of serious crimes.
                                  XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

                                  Comment

                                  • _Richard_
                                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                                    • Oct 2006
                                    • 30991

                                    #18
                                    This is actually kind of interesting. I've been wondering what the west was going to do in regards to the countless and outrageous amount of warcrimes that we commit.

                                    It is funny, and ironic, that warcrimes would be filed in germany of all places, but seriously. I also thought it was funny that donny's scapegoat is the one who is testifying against him. This is going to be interesting

                                    R

                                    Comment

                                    • Lazonby
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Feb 2006
                                      • 2262

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Mr.Sexbankroll
                                      This is actually kind of interesting. I've been wondering what the west was going to do in regards to the countless and outrageous amount of warcrimes that we commit.

                                      It is funny, and ironic, that warcrimes would be filed in germany of all places, but seriously. I also thought it was funny that donny's scapegoat is the one who is testifying against him. This is going to be interesting

                                      R
                                      What warcrimes?

                                      Comment

                                      • Babaganoosh
                                        ♥♥♥ Likes Hugs ♥♥♥
                                        • Nov 2001
                                        • 15841

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by LiveDose
                                        Germany.... LOL hahaha
                                        Beat me to it.

                                        LOL @ Germany
                                        I like pie.

                                        Comment

                                        • Lancelot
                                          Registered User
                                          • Mar 2003
                                          • 89

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by ElvisManson
                                          I reads the article and then summarized it for you....lol

                                          50rry 80u7 y0u3r |u(k


                                          Sorry bro!!!
                                          LOL

                                          Comment

                                          • ElvisManson
                                            Looking California
                                            • Feb 2001
                                            • 5476

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Lancelot
                                            Sorry bro!!!
                                            LOL
                                            .. - ... .- .-.. .-.. --. --- --- -.. -- .- -.

                                            It's all good man.

                                            Comment

                                            • Webby
                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                              • Oct 2002
                                              • 14956

                                              #23
                                              Mmmm... on the face of it, this *may* appear to be a valid claim in that there are provisions already made for any country participating in the ICC to give them first option to resolve any accusations against their own citizens. According to the details already issued, this opportunity to redress complaints has not been addressed within the US. (Who knows, but that is prob part of the reason for a few US soliders to face a court in the US - and avoid possible prosecution on an international basis)

                                              The current status of the US and the ICC is that the US has elected to agree with prosecutions under certain circumstances, but still has an opinion that the US is not going to be the "perp" in such cases. Basically, there is one law for us and another for everyone else.

                                              Currently there is no protection of US troops under the terms of the ICC - this protection was being granted on an annual basis, but has not been renewed because of the Abu Ghraib issue, which appears to be ongoing.

                                              Also interesting in this case is that there are apparently US military giving evidence on behalf of the plantiffs. Who knows where that may lead...
                                              XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

                                              Comment

                                              • DjSap
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Jul 2002
                                                • 3869

                                                #24
                                                poor rummy...he was one of the few people i liked in the administration...
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                                                • Jack_Daniels
                                                  Confirmed User
                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                  • 161

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by LiveDose
                                                  Germany.... LOL hahaha
                                                  I get the joke but this really shouldn't surprise anybody. Germany was for all intents and purposes effectively emasculated 61 years ago. Nowadays they're more pacifist than Sweden and in the event of a war any country bigger than Luxembourg would kick their ass without even breaking a sweat.

                                                  The Germans you're used to seeing in the movies are all dead or in old age homes now.

                                                  It's actually kinda sad in a way though no doubt the French sleep a lot better nowadays
                                                  My signature is almost invisible.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • mardigras
                                                    Bon temps!
                                                    • Feb 2003
                                                    • 14194

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by DjSap
                                                    poor rummy...he was one of the few people i liked in the administration...
                                                    Colin Powell was the only person I ever saw as likeable in this bunch...

                                                    Rummy was well past the expiration date.
                                                    .

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Webby
                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                      • Oct 2002
                                                      • 14956

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by mardigras
                                                      Colin Powell was the only person I ever saw as likeable in this bunch...

                                                      Rummy was well past the expiration date.
                                                      Kinda agree mardigras - Powell was set up and he knows it.

                                                      You may remember he was briefed by Tennant and others for a few days before delivering that spewage of "evidence" to the UN and kept questioning the autheticity of the "evidence" - and ultimately assured by Tennant that it was reliable. (That was the point at which Powell insisted that Tennant side behind him at the UN and show his support for the claims)

                                                      Got no reason to believe Powell is anything other than an honorable man.
                                                      XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • marketsmart
                                                        HOMICIDAL TROLL KILLER
                                                        • Dec 2004
                                                        • 20419

                                                        #28
                                                        interesting, giving it a read now...

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Kimo
                                                          ...
                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                          • 11542

                                                          #29
                                                          Hey Daddyhalbucks, how much was that bet for?
                                                          ...

                                                          Comment

                                                          • TheJimmy
                                                            ICQ- five seven 0 2 5 5 0
                                                            • Jan 2001
                                                            • 10747

                                                            #30
                                                            congrats to all the winners
                                                            Investor with 5m - 15m USD to invest. Do you have a site or network of sites earning 50k - 200k a month income? Email your contact and preliminary data to: domain.cashventures (at) gmail.com....Please...no tire kickers...serious offers and inquiries only.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • DaddyHalbucks
                                                              A freakin' legend!
                                                              • Feb 2004
                                                              • 18975

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Kimo
                                                              Hey Daddyhalbucks, how much was that bet for?

                                                              Hahaha, this won't go anywhere. Anyone can name anyone in a lawsuit, or for that matter, a criminal complaint. Proving it.. is an entirely different problem.
                                                              Boner Money

                                                              Comment

                                                              • EBORG9
                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                • Oct 2006
                                                                • 1823

                                                                #32
                                                                DAMN!!! Now we gotta bomb Germany?

                                                                Comment

                                                                • hydro
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • Dec 2003
                                                                  • 4216

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by EBORG9
                                                                  DAMN!!! Now we gotta bomb Germany?
                                                                  No dumbass we have to liberate them, maybe they'll give us shiny new bmws or audis as a thank you?

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Phoenix
                                                                    BACON BACON BACON
                                                                    • Nov 2002
                                                                    • 35475

                                                                    #34
                                                                    im thinking they need to charge bush as well

                                                                    gonzales should be ousted from any law enforcement duties

                                                                    he already let those fuckin crooks off i the 80's

                                                                    why do you think he got his current role?
                                                                    Telegram PhoenixBrad
                                                                    https://quantads.io

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Webby
                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                      • Oct 2002
                                                                      • 14956

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by EBORG9
                                                                      DAMN!!! Now we gotta bomb Germany?
                                                                      But... Before you do, check who the instigators of this action are.

                                                                      The case is being raised by the US-based Centre for Constitutional Rights and representing a Saudi detained in Cuba and 11 Iraqis held in Baghdad.

                                                                      The only reason it's being presented in a German court is that their laws allow the pursuit of cases originating anywhere in the world. This is not the first attempt by the Centre for Constitutional Rights - a previous try was made in 2004, but German prosecutors dropped that case.

                                                                      The Centre for Constitutional Rights argues that Mr Rumsfeld was instrumental in abuses committed at Guantanamo Bay and at Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

                                                                      The lawyer group alleges that Mr Rumsfeld personally approved torture to be used to extract information from the prisoners.

                                                                      It is also seeking to prosecute US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and former CIA director George Tenet, among others.
                                                                      XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • BluMedia
                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                        • Dec 2002
                                                                        • 3973

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Here is a really funny video on Rumsfeld http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmLToYe8nRo
                                                                        IntenseCash - If you can't convert us then you might want to look for a new job
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                                                                        • EBORG9
                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                          • Oct 2006
                                                                          • 1823

                                                                          #37
                                                                          What about Dick Cheney? He looses money if the war stops. He is the biggest crook of all. How the fuck you gonna be VP and be a major share holder in the company the supplies the military with equiptment, food and gas?

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • studiocritic
                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                            • Jun 2005
                                                                            • 2442

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Webby
                                                                            Kinda agree mardigras - Powell was set up and he knows it.

                                                                            You may remember he was briefed by Tennant and others for a few days before delivering that spewage of "evidence" to the UN and kept questioning the autheticity of the "evidence" - and ultimately assured by Tennant that it was reliable. (That was the point at which Powell insisted that Tennant side behind him at the UN and show his support for the claims)

                                                                            Got no reason to believe Powell is anything other than an honorable man.
                                                                            Tennant = Tenet, I assume
                                                                            254342256

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Webby
                                                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                              • Oct 2002
                                                                              • 14956

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by studiocritic
                                                                              Tennant = Tenet, I assume
                                                                              You assume correct - It's time he changed his name to something sensible
                                                                              XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Webby
                                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                • Oct 2002
                                                                                • 14956

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by EBORG9
                                                                                What about Dick Cheney? He looses money if the war stops. He is the biggest crook of all. How the fuck you gonna be VP and be a major share holder in the company the supplies the military with equiptment, food and gas?
                                                                                Cheney has immunity at the moment - not sure if that continues after he leaves office?
                                                                                XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • L-Pink
                                                                                  working on my tan
                                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                                  • 39151

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Colin Powell needs to run for president on an independent ticket.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Odin
                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                    • Jan 2004
                                                                                    • 2545

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Jack_Daniels
                                                                                    I get the joke but this really shouldn't surprise anybody. Germany was for all intents and purposes effectively emasculated 61 years ago. Nowadays they're more pacifist than Sweden and in the event of a war any country bigger than Luxembourg would kick their ass without even breaking a sweat.

                                                                                    The Germans you're used to seeing in the movies are all dead or in old age homes now.

                                                                                    It's actually kinda sad in a way though no doubt the French sleep a lot better nowadays
                                                                                    You're quite right, the actual German's have no fighting spirit anymore. As you said, 61 years of demonization of themselves does that I guess. That said, despite the lack of will power, they do have a mighty military nonetheless.
                                                                                    ICQ: 637//961--015

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • EBORG9
                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                      • Oct 2006
                                                                                      • 1823

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      I agree, Colin is the fuckin man. When Bush went against his recomendation I knew we were fucked, and it was the first time I was ever glad my enlistment was up.
                                                                                      That was an especially hard thing to deal with. On one hand wanting to be with my bros. and fight the fight with them, on the other, having absolutely no faith in this country's leadership, and not wanting to be a part of the fucking quagmire Bush was about to unleash on our military.

                                                                                      Every 1st year private knew at that time , that walking into Iraq with ground troops, was the dumbest decision since Mc Donalds launched Mc Pizza.

                                                                                      Bush needs to be on trail for starting a completely illegal war, and detaining "POW's", completely disreguarding not only the 1952 Geneva Convention that we always throw in everyones face, but the U.S. Consititution.

                                                                                      He is a fucking prick and he never had the intelligence, or the resume' to be President, and he has been making up the rules as he goes along.
                                                                                      I wouldn't walk across the street to spit on him, yet, I would step in front of a bullet to protect him, because....He's the President, and I am an American.

                                                                                      God bless America!

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Webby
                                                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                        • Oct 2002
                                                                                        • 14956

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Chief
                                                                                        You're quite right, the actual German's have no fighting spirit anymore. As you said, 61 years of demonization of themselves does that I guess. That said, despite the lack of will power, they do have a mighty military nonetheless.
                                                                                        The joke is that this case has little to do with Germany - the issue is being presented to German prosecutors in the hope they will accept it since German law permits prosecution of serious offenses irrespective of the jurisdiction of the alleged crime.

                                                                                        The case is being presented by a team of US lawyers seeking remedy on behalf of 12 individuals who claim abuse and torture.

                                                                                        Obviously it is miles away from an actual prosecution, but could be an introduction to the ICC, depending if the case is strong enough - that remains to be seen.
                                                                                        XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

                                                                                        Comment

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