Correct me if I'm wrong but has the british police KILLED an innocent man today? - GoFuckYourself.com

alexg · 07-22-2005, 08:49 AM

well I read about this briefly and it doesn't seem like he was a suicide bomber.

that's just fucked up... since when do you shoot a guy 5 times in the middle of the street?

Shaft_1971 · 07-22-2005, 08:50 AM

No - they shot a suspect

Shaft

Phoenix · 07-22-2005, 08:51 AM

they shot someone who pushed past bariers with what looks tobe a gag bomb...deserves to die

solonline · 07-22-2005, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

well I read about this briefly and it doesn't seem like he was a suicide bomber.

that's just fucked up... since when do you shoot a guy 5 times in the middle of the street?

Wasent in the street in was in the tube and he failed to stop when told do so by police! If he innocent (which I doubt) tough... he should have stopped. Like I said better 1 dead than 100s. And if it is one of the fuckers then all the better.

GammaCash_Dom · 07-22-2005, 08:57 AM

maybe he was innocent BUT he was guilty of not stopping when asked by the police in a situation of terrorisme alert....

It's a normal thing....if he was innocent of being a suicide bomber, he was guilty of stupidity for not stopping when police ask to stop a week after bombings in the subway....

alexg · 07-22-2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solonline

Wasent in the street in was in the tube and he failed to stop when told do so by police! If he innocent (which I doubt) tough... he should have stopped. Like I said better 1 dead than 100s. And if it is one of the fuckers then all the better.

that's a really fucked up situation.

maybe he doesn't understand english so he didn't stop?

i'm 90% sure he was innocent because if he wasn't they would surely say it in a clear way and it would be all over the news.

it seems they blew it and now they're just won't admit it...

alexg · 07-22-2005, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braincash_Dom

maybe he was innocent BUT he was guilty of not stopping when asked by the police in a situation of terrorisme alert....

It's a normal thing....if he was innocent of being a suicide bomber, he was guilty of stupidity for not stopping when police ask to stop a week after bombings in the subway....

oh that brings memories about some british woman who was also guilty of stupidity and died because of that but some of the people here were much more bothered about that issue than today's one

alexg · 07-22-2005, 09:01 AM

maybe he was deaf?

Vendot · 07-22-2005, 09:02 AM

According to the press briefing, the guy shot was connected to the events of yesterday.

High Quality · 07-22-2005, 09:03 AM

I am correcting you because you are wrong.

alexg · 07-22-2005, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Quality

I am correcting you because you are wrong.

from cnn.com:

"The information I have available is that this shooting is directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation," said Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair.

While the death is deeply regrettable, Blair said, the man challenged police and refused to obey instructions.

A senior police official told CNN the man was being followed in connection with the investigation. The man has not been formally identified, the official said, and it is not clear if he was one of the four suspected bombers police have identified from closed circuit television images.

doesn't sound very convincing to be honest

Doctor Dre · 07-22-2005, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

they shot someone who pushed past bariers with what looks tobe a gag bomb...deserves to die

Way to suicide yourself .

Maybe that was a political suicide bomber

JohnW · 07-22-2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

that's a really fucked up situation.

maybe he doesn't understand english so he didn't stop?

i'm 90% sure he was innocent because if he wasn't they would surely say it in a clear way and it would be all over the news.

it seems they blew it and now they're just won't admit it...

Can I borrow that magical crystal ball you are looking into?

;)

j.

eroswebmaster · 07-22-2005, 09:10 AM

You run from guys with guns telling you to stop and guess what you might get shot.

The only person I'm running from who has a gun drawn and telling me to stop is some guy trying to jack me.

Doctor Dre · 07-22-2005, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vendot

According to the press briefing, the guy shot was connected to the events of yesterday.

And Bush is also a god and speaking the truth ;)

If you ever dealt with the press you know how fucking easy it is to manipulate it

alexg · 07-22-2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW

Can I borrow that magical crystal ball you are looking into?

;)

j.

i'm just suggesting things

you have to agree the quotes from the police and tony blair were not very convincing...

edgeprod · 07-22-2005, 09:14 AM

fuck it, kill more of these morons

Linkster · 07-22-2005, 09:14 AM

I guess the part that kinda puts me off about this is that according to the eyewitnesses that have posted their stories - the guy tripped and fell - the police ran up to him and then shot him 5 times while he was lying on the ground? That doesnt sound like a "normal" reaction for a cop

alexg · 07-22-2005, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eroswebmaster

You run from guys with guns telling you to stop and guess what you might get shot.

The only person I'm running from who has a gun drawn and telling me to stop is some guy trying to jack me.

so it's ok to shoot stupid people?

i can say something similar:

"you throw rocks at soldiers and guess what you might get shot"

no idea how this example came to my mind...

Linkster · 07-22-2005, 09:17 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...159815,00.html
turns out the police were plaincloths cops and the suspect was on the ground when they shot him

Za Ha · 07-22-2005, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

that's a really fucked up situation.

maybe he doesn't understand english so he didn't stop?

i'm 90% sure he was innocent because if he wasn't they would surely say it in a clear way and it would be all over the news.

it seems they blew it and now they're just won't admit it...

Maybe they should have offered him some tea and some cheesecake while asking him nicely to stop...
Even if he didnt understand English, if you have nothing to hide you would put your hands up and drop to the ground if policemen were yelling you at gunpoint.

eroswebmaster · 07-22-2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

so it's ok to shoot stupid people?

i can say something similar:

"you throw rocks at soldiers and guess what you might get shot"

no idea how this example came to my mind...

Exactly...you throw rocks at armed men anything can happen.

Pleasurepays · 07-22-2005, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

well I read about this briefly and it doesn't seem like he was a suicide bomber.

that's just fucked up... since when do you shoot a guy 5 times in the middle of the street?

why do you think he is innocent? when police chase you through the subway telling your to stop or they will shoot... you are already in the wrong.

alexg · 07-22-2005, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Ha

Maybe they should have offered him some tea and some cheesecake while asking him nicely to stop...
Even if he didnt understand English, if you have nothing to hide you would put your hands up and drop to the ground if policemen were yelling you at gunpoint.

BTW, I'm rather trying to show the hypocrisy of some people than actually critisize the London police.

If such thing happened in Israel and it turned out the man was innocent (btw I don't recall such thing happening in Israel), Ken Livingfuck would be all over the media telling everybody how Israel are terrorists...

alexg · 07-22-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

why do you think he is innocent? when police chase you through the subway telling your to stop or they will shoot... you are already in the wrong.

read my previous post to understand the point of this thread

Za Ha · 07-22-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

BTW, I'm rather trying to show the hypocrisy of some people than actually critisize the London police.

If such thing happened in Israel and it turned out the man was innocent (btw I don't recall such thing happening in Israel), Ken Livingfuck would be all over the media telling everybody how Israel are terrorists...

True, but London has been attacked a few times in the recent days, so the police have to show that they will not fuck around.

Linkster · 07-22-2005, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Ha

Even if he didnt understand English, if you have nothing to hide you would put your hands up and drop to the ground if policemen were yelling you at gunpoint.

Ummm - I think he did drop to the ground - thats when the cops - not in uniform btw - ran up and emptied 5 rounds into him while he was laying on the ground

tranza · 07-22-2005, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braincash_Dom

maybe he was innocent BUT he was guilty of not stopping when asked by the police in a situation of terrorisme alert....

It's a normal thing....if he was innocent of being a suicide bomber, he was guilty of stupidity for not stopping when police ask to stop a week after bombings in the subway....

I couldn't agree more....

BTW: Your sig rocks!

Za Ha · 07-22-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkster

Ummm - I think he did drop to the ground - thats when the cops - not in uniform btw - ran up and emptied 5 rounds into him while he was laying on the ground

Wasnt aware of that, but still I dont change my POV, he ran and looked like a suspect, enough to get shot.

Paco, of Large Cash. · 07-22-2005, 09:34 AM

Uh, okay:

Correct me if I?m wrong, but did the British police KILL an innocent man, today?

or

Correct me if I am wrong but have the British police KILLED an innocent man today?

Manowar · 07-22-2005, 09:36 AM

britain is crazy at the moment

kektex · 07-22-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

BTW, I'm rather trying to show the hypocrisy of some people than actually critisize the London police.

If such thing happened in Israel and it turned out the man was innocent (btw I don't recall such thing happening in Israel), Ken Livingfuck would be all over the media telling everybody how Israel are terrorists...

Yeah that`s the way to respond to rocks.With bullets from machine guns.

As far as I can tell what happened today is fucked up.The guy tripped and the cops decided it would be a good idea, just to be on the safe side, to shoot him five times.
Fuck, the guy is already pinned to the ground.

Quote:

``They pushed him onto the floor and unloaded five shots into him. He's dead,'' witness Mark Whitby told the British Broadcasting Corp. ``He looked like a cornered fox. He looked petrified.''

davethetruth · 07-22-2005, 09:39 AM

BBC NEWS:
Stockwell passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers".

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him," he said.

alexg · 07-22-2005, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paco, of Large Cash.

Uh, okay:

Correct me if I?m wrong, but did the British police KILL an innocent man, today?

or

Correct me if I am wrong but have the British police KILLED an innocent man today?

alexg · 07-22-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kektex

Yeah that`s the way to respond to rocks.With bullets from machine guns.

The IDF never does that.

I can only imagine what Ken Livingfuck would say if they did this once by mistake...

BigasMoe · 07-22-2005, 09:45 AM

No.1 You dont' run from armed Police.
No.2 You don't walk around in a winter coat in the summer

Paco, of Large Cash. · 07-22-2005, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigasMoe

No.1 You dont' run from armed Police.
No.2 You don't walk around in a winter coat in the summer

No.1: sure you do, after you've done something illegal.
No.2: the 'trend' is known as "urban wear". Where you been hiding?
If a person is persecuted simply because they are weak and get cold easily, or find that to be a cool fashion, then our world is beyond fucked.

Antonio · 07-22-2005, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Ha

Maybe they should have offered him some tea and some cheesecake while asking him nicely to stop...
Even if he didnt understand English, if you have nothing to hide you would put your hands up and drop to the ground if policemen were yelling you at gunpoint.

which part of PLAIN CLOTHES POLICEMEN don't you understand???????
which part of HE WAS LYING ON THE GROUND WHILE BEING SHOT FIVE TIMES don't you understand?????

QuaWee · 07-22-2005, 10:14 AM

alexg the sheep dont care, why even waste your time?

BradM · 07-22-2005, 10:19 AM

This is a war people. When you don't STOP when being told to, you get shot.

Stop trying to be so damn liberal and WAKE UP.

roly · 07-22-2005, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkster

I guess the part that kinda puts me off about this is that according to the eyewitnesses that have posted their stories - the guy tripped and fell - the police ran up to him and then shot him 5 times while he was lying on the ground? That doesnt sound like a "normal" reaction for a cop

it is if they have a very real reason to believe he was another suicide bomber. whether they had we will have to see but from what i gather, the guy had been under survielance and they were following him to see who he met up with or where he went (so there's a good chance he's related to the recent attacks in some way - the security services don't put you under survielance just for being asian), unfortunatly he decided to enter the underground wearing a heavy coat on a summers day and when he was told to stop he ran. i would bet he's linked to all this and if so, good riddance. if he's not guilty of anything then it's a shame but there's not a person in europe let alone london who isn't aware of what's currently going on there at the moment. so to run from armed police in london at the moment let alone on the underground is crazy. but just because he wasn't one of the bombers doesn't mean he isn't linked in some way.

btw. i can't believe the irony of an israeli talking about 1 (only possibly) innocent person being shot when 5 year old children and aid workers are shot in israel almost daily.

Bama · 07-22-2005, 10:23 AM

I wouldn't care if I was in a country that spoke a language so remote that it would be impossible for anyone not born in that country to understand, learn or even comprehend...

Innocent of any crime or guilty as sin - when an armed cop is yelling instructions to you - you stop and raise your hands. You can always sort shit out later!

davethetruth · 07-22-2005, 10:25 AM

Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

Mr Dickovitch · 07-22-2005, 10:49 AM

I thought they just hit people there with those silly clubs.

swedguy · 07-22-2005, 11:08 AM

Not even 12 hours has passed so it's a tad early to judge if he's innocent or not

What I've read and heard from eyewitnesses on TV, I'm on the cops side.

The guy didn't stop when told so.

He was running around in a big, bulky overcoat that didn't fit the current weather situation. Remember that everybody is looking for foreigners with backpacks, much better to strap the bombs to your body and cover it up with an overcoat, right?

When he fell/was tripped by the cops (I've heard both stories), he was shot with 5 rounds. He most likely has the detonator in the hand, pocket or up the arm. If they stop and ask him what he's doing, he can easily reach the detonator. Shoot to kill.

The cops are instructed to shoot to kill. The guy had done enough to justify the cops action.

MetaMan · 07-22-2005, 11:10 AM

so when do you think only whites, blacks and asians will be able to take the tube?

only a matter of time? i dont think it is to far fetched, this is war.

Giorgio_Xo · 07-22-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

BTW, I'm rather trying to show the hypocrisy of some people than actually critisize the London police.

If such thing happened in Israel and it turned out the man was innocent (btw I don't recall such thing happening in Israel), Ken Livingfuck would be all over the media telling everybody how Israel are terrorists...

Israel is a terrorist state. They have a ghetto of 3.5 million people with no means of support, no country, no rights, no hope... Israel is no better than Nazi Germany.

Rich · 07-22-2005, 11:21 AM

I can't believe I agree with alexg. Everyone is so quick to judge and to just assume that the government is doing the right thing. Oh no, the government couldn't kill an innocent man, he must be a terrorist.

Like alex says, what if he was deaf? He deserves to die because he can't hear? What if he was mentally retarded or had a disease like alzheimer's and had no idea what was going on?

The fact is police shouldn't shoot people for not listening to them unless they KNOW they're very dangerous and/or armed. They like to use times like these, when half of the public is scared shitless, to get us used to abuses of power like this. It's pathetic to see how many people accept it.

alexg · 07-22-2005, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

I can't believe I agree with alexg. Everyone is so quick to judge and to just assume that the government is doing the right thing. Oh no, the government couldn't kill an innocent man, he must be a terrorist.

Like alex says, what if he was deaf? He deserves to die because he can't hear? What if he was mentally retarded or had a disease like alzheimer's and had no idea what was going on?

The fact is police shouldn't shoot people for not listening to them unless they KNOW they're very dangerous and/or armed. They like to use times like these, when half of the public is scared shitless, to get us used to abuses of power like this. It's pathetic to see how many people accept it.

how could ken livingstone allow such thing to happen?

i think he should retire from his post immediately...

Rich · 07-22-2005, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

how could ken livingstone allow such thing to happen?

i think he should retire from his post immediately...

What does the mayor have to do with this?

Oh right, he opposes Israel. blah blah blah

07-22-2005, 08:49 AM	#1
alexg IL4L.com Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Israel - ICQ: 162136565 Posts: 11,287	Correct me if I'm wrong but has the british police KILLED an innocent man today? well I read about this briefly and it doesn't seem like he was a suicide bomber. that's just fucked up... since when do you shoot a guy 5 times in the middle of the street? __________________ Find fuck buddies in your area!

07-22-2005, 08:50 AM	#2
Shaft_1971 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,711	No - they shot a suspect Shaft __________________ SHAFT Skype: Shaft_1971 Email: [email protected] Email: [email protected]

07-22-2005, 09:01 AM	#8
alexg IL4L.com Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Israel - ICQ: 162136565 Posts: 11,287	maybe he was deaf? __________________ Find fuck buddies in your area!

07-22-2005, 09:02 AM	#9
Vendot Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Malaysia Posts: 3,376	According to the press briefing, the guy shot was connected to the events of yesterday. __________________ "In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act." - George Orwell

07-22-2005, 09:03 AM	#10
High Quality Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 5,741	I am correcting you because you are wrong. __________________ RecurCash.com - Averaging $38/sale with 60% revshare in the first 4 months alone! Convert your TEEN traffic today @ better than 1:500 guaranteed. ICQ me: 18287590!

07-22-2005, 08:51 AM	#3
Phoenix BACON BACON BACON Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poems everybody, the laddie fancies himself a poet Posts: 35,462	they shot someone who pushed past bariers with what looks tobe a gag bomb...deserves to die

07-22-2005, 08:57 AM	#5
GammaCash_Dom Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 405	maybe he was innocent BUT he was guilty of not stopping when asked by the police in a situation of terrorisme alert.... It's a normal thing....if he was innocent of being a suicide bomber, he was guilty of stupidity for not stopping when police ask to stop a week after bombings in the subway....

07-22-2005, 09:10 AM	#14
eroswebmaster March 1st, 2003 Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seat 4 @ Venetian Poker Room Posts: 20,295	You run from guys with guns telling you to stop and guess what you might get shot. The only person I'm running from who has a gun drawn and telling me to stop is some guy trying to jack me. __________________ For rent - ICQ 127-027-910 Click here for more details

07-22-2005, 09:14 AM	#17
edgeprod Permanently Gone Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10,019	fuck it, kill more of these morons

07-22-2005, 09:14 AM	#18
Linkster Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: DeltaHell Posts: 3,216	I guess the part that kinda puts me off about this is that according to the eyewitnesses that have posted their stories - the guy tripped and fell - the police ran up to him and then shot him 5 times while he was lying on the ground? That doesnt sound like a "normal" reaction for a cop __________________ Porn Links Crak for your bank account - Get Addicted FREE LIVE CAM SHOWS

07-22-2005, 09:17 AM	#20
Linkster Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: DeltaHell Posts: 3,216	http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...159815,00.html turns out the police were plaincloths cops and the suspect was on the ground when they shot him __________________ Porn Links Crak for your bank account - Get Addicted FREE LIVE CAM SHOWS

07-22-2005, 09:34 AM	#30
Paco, of Large Cash. Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: --> . <-- Posts: 2,267	Uh, okay: Correct me if I?m wrong, but did* the British police KILL an innocent man, today?* or Correct me if I am wrong but have* the British police KILLED an innocent man today?*

07-22-2005, 09:36 AM	#31
Manowar jellyfish Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 71,528	britain is crazy at the moment

07-22-2005, 09:39 AM	#33
davethetruth Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,806	BBC NEWS: Stockwell passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers". "One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him," he said. __________________ Rainbow Revenue- The BEST Gay Conversions New Sex Toy Affiliate Program! Get $10.00 Just For Joining! Choose from two Sex Toy Stores to promote: BedroomSports- Since 1998 - Now New & Improved! VibratorWarehouse- New Site with Excellent Conversions!

07-22-2005, 09:45 AM	#36
BigasMoe Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: I Thought You Knew! Posts: 1,401	No.1 You dont' run from armed Police. No.2 You don't walk around in a winter coat in the summer __________________ Um Still BigasMoe icq#:249892809

07-22-2005, 10:14 AM	#39
QuaWee Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: boogers Posts: 5,791	alexg the sheep dont care, why even waste your time? __________________ i luv mainstream

07-22-2005, 10:19 AM	#40
BradM Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 1123,6536,5231 Posts: 3,397	This is a war people. When you don't STOP when being told to, you get shot. Stop trying to be so damn liberal and WAKE UP.

07-22-2005, 10:23 AM	#42
Bama Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 2,727	I wouldn't care if I was in a country that spoke a language so remote that it would be impossible for anyone not born in that country to understand, learn or even comprehend... Innocent of any crime or guilty as sin - when an armed cop is yelling instructions to you - you stop and raise your hands. You can always sort shit out later!

07-22-2005, 10:25 AM	#43
davethetruth Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,806	Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out". __________________ Rainbow Revenue- The BEST Gay Conversions New Sex Toy Affiliate Program! Get $10.00 Just For Joining! Choose from two Sex Toy Stores to promote: BedroomSports- Since 1998 - Now New & Improved! VibratorWarehouse- New Site with Excellent Conversions!

07-22-2005, 10:49 AM	#44
Mr Dickovitch Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,070	I thought they just hit people there with those silly clubs.

07-22-2005, 11:08 AM	#45
swedguy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,981	Not even 12 hours has passed so it's a tad early to judge if he's innocent or not What I've read and heard from eyewitnesses on TV, I'm on the cops side. The guy didn't stop when told so. He was running around in a big, bulky overcoat that didn't fit the current weather situation. Remember that everybody is looking for foreigners with backpacks, much better to strap the bombs to your body and cover it up with an overcoat, right? When he fell/was tripped by the cops (I've heard both stories), he was shot with 5 rounds. He most likely has the detonator in the hand, pocket or up the arm. If they stop and ask him what he's doing, he can easily reach the detonator. Shoot to kill. The cops are instructed to shoot to kill. The guy had done enough to justify the cops action.

07-22-2005, 11:10 AM	#46
MetaMan I AM WEB 2.0 Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,682	so when do you think only whites, blacks and asians will be able to take the tube? only a matter of time? i dont think it is to far fetched, this is war.

07-22-2005, 11:21 AM	#48
Rich So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 11,486	I can't believe I agree with alexg. Everyone is so quick to judge and to just assume that the government is doing the right thing. Oh no, the government couldn't kill an innocent man, he must be a terrorist. Like alex says, what if he was deaf? He deserves to die because he can't hear? What if he was mentally retarded or had a disease like alzheimer's and had no idea what was going on? The fact is police shouldn't shoot people for not listening to them unless they KNOW they're very dangerous and/or armed. They like to use times like these, when half of the public is scared shitless, to get us used to abuses of power like this. It's pathetic to see how many people accept it.