-=HUNGRYMAN=-

And everybody want to know why I DON'T use dialers ... ?

FUCK THAT NOISE !!! Too much love for one another in that business ...

I will blow my own fucking head off, if the day ever comes that the only way for me to try and drum up some business, is by talking fucking shit about my competition, and trying to make everybody like me and not them !!!

I pass a motion before us, that we donate a message board somewhere WAY THE FUCK ON THE OTHER SIDE OF CYBERSPACE for all the dialer people to go and throw sand at each other !!!

This was highly amusing in the beginning ... but has become nothing short of ANNOYING AS FUCK now !!!

---------------
<a href="http://www.hotwebmistresses.com">
<IMG SRC="http://www.hotwebmistresses.com/trans_recip.gif" border=0></a>
The Black Sheep of the Boneprone Family
I like to rub HERTURN on my nipples.

SNOW

True but you still gotta love me..

pr0

No no no no no....the more bong rips you take the funnier it gets

Life is all about having fun....dont even sweat the small stuff, just letem be.

Whats the old saying "To each his own"

hehehe

:::buying everyone a beer::::

Brad Mitchell

I'd love to start my first pissing match here on GFY. I fucking hate dialers. They may have their place for some foreign traffic but most of the 'bling-bling' made from dialers is simply from false advertising and deceiving US surfers.

I'd venture to say that we're going to see a lot more FTC investigations and prosecutions.

Go Fuck Yourselves

Brad

AaronM

First off.. pr0... LOL Bong rips. I am not sure why I find that so amusing but I do.

Secondly.... SinEmpire... You want a pissing match? You got it! I have been running and selling dialers longer than anybody here. They have been the bread and butter for me, my wives (I live in Utah), and all 7 kids. If it was not for dialers, the phone companies would have gone broke shortly after the cell phone market exploded.

Brad Mitchell

I didn't say they don't make money, I said they were a nuisance for US traffic. I know lots of people have made and still are making serious bank. I know it can't be easy feeding several wives and 7 kids eek!

Seriously though, what percentage of your dialer revenue is from the US? I'm curious if it's as high as I think it is.

Brad

AaronM

Man, most of the people I rip off... I mean ... most of my dialer minutes are in the US. about 73% I believe. I try to stay away from the 3rd world countries because they do not pay shit. I prefer to go to retirement homes and use the old people?s computers to log on to my dialers then I minimize it so they can go back to their solitaire games while I rake in the cash. I then give a SMALL cut to the retirement home for assisting me. It is a good business.

FATPad

Yes.
www.gofuckyourdialer.com would be a good idea. It's turning into a glue factory around here with all the dead horses being beaten.

X37375787

Which dialer is the best?

DialerNET

Boneprone has told you people over and over again.

Jesus Dialer.

sheeesh.. if you can't remember simple things like that, then you shouldn't even be in this biz!

Jason.

------------------
DialerNET - Up to 90 cents per minute.
Find better rates, and we'll try to beat them.
We can host your dialers free, but you can name them whatever you want.
We pay by check or wire. Wires at NO charge!

X37375787

Dude, don't give me this shit !

I've used fucking Jesus dialer ever since it got released in 1985 and I am still loyal.

You think I'm stupid or what?

AaronM

Mine are all top secret. I have enough dialer customers at this point so why increase my payrole?

Brad Mitchell

LOL - So besides your terms and conditions that probably state the price should be listed somewhere, what's the chance a surfer is ever going to know the price range per minute before getting bent over? I've never seen a site promoting dialers that says you're going to pay $3-$10/min -LMAO

Brad


------------------
SinTalk Phone Sex Pays!

[This message has been edited by SinEmpire (edited 01-17-2002).]

grumpy

if dialers are so shitty why do we have the lowest chargeback. Less then 0.005%. Try to beat that with your cc payments

------------------
Life is a fairytale

DialerNET

errr.. So it's fair to say you're well up to date with what's going on in the dialer industry then?
I mean, it's obvious by the display of knowledge you're demonstrating.

No offence of course.
Dipshit.

Jason.

------------------
DialerNET - Up to 90 cents per minute.
Find better rates, and we'll try to beat them.
We can host your dialers free, but you can name them whatever you want.
We pay by check or wire. Wires at NO charge!

ArronM

Sorry .... I know this statement will piss off alot of people, but the last time I checked, my constitutional rights included FREEDOM OF SPEACH ...

Dialers suck ass!

There are far more honest ways to make a buck ...

That is just my 1½ cents .... and Tam and Snow I still luv ya(s) !!!



[This message has been edited by ArronM (edited 01-17-2002).]

E-van

LMAO, AaronM, you're bent to have a pissing match... the utah thing was good enough

Dialers are now in my agenda as one of the big topics NOT to discuss (unless you want to win a DVD, and no, I'm not implying you want one Hungryman).
People gets too sensitive around them, politics, race and religion...

Now, don't use a dialer if you don't want to, if you're a dialer reseller or owner, don't try to say your product is the best, every product has their advantages and disadvantages, just go ahead and market your stuff while other people market theirs, the FUD marketing techniques and the my thing is better/bigger than yours are pretty lame...

(oh, and viceversa for everyone involved in this situation)

Peace


------------------
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Tam

Hungry, I could NOT agree with you more, honestly. There is so not a shortage of webmasters and I get so tired of the cut throat attitude involved at times. If I had to pic one thing I despised the most, it would be that. And I am not by any means innocent in any of it......... but the cut throat is so insane in the dialer world. Everyone making personal attacks on everyone and all this makes me crazy.

There is some very good money to be had with dialers and I don't think the damn surfers are near as bad as the people who promote them 80% of the damn time. And as I said, I am not innocent by any means, but good grief, this is all getting a bit ridiculous. We ARE all adults afterall, or supposed to be. I have said all along that there is way too many personal attacks going on in the dialer industry, makes alot of people not even want to hassle with it because of the way alot of US act.

This person trying to destroy that person and so on and so on...... it's way out of hand. And let me reiterate here, I am no innocent either, but there has to be a happy medium somewhere.

------------------
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Jakke PNG

I want to DVD, but I can't have it.
Multiple reasons. Mainly because I lack the balls to start a thread. I'm afraid people will call me nasty names if I start one.

------------------
TeenMafia.com
Offshore Clicks - 3c per blind click.
.:::Spamming is fun:::.

-=HUNGRYMAN=-

Very big of you Tam .... YOU ARE ONE CLASS ACT

E-van : Hell ... I got no shame ... I can always use a DVD player ... then I wouldn't have to give up the PC when my wife wants to watch a Hindi movie ... and EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM are at least 3 hours long !!


---------------
<a href="http://www.hotwebmistresses.com">
<IMG SRC="http://www.hotwebmistresses.com/trans_recip.gif" border=0></a>
The Black Sheep of the Boneprone Family
I like to rub HERTURN on my nipples.

quiet

so, why are things like that with the dialers?

E-van

Tam is a class act, all around, even though she never ICQ's anymore (Hi Tam)

Hungryman, hmmm, I think I can pick you up one pretty cheap, I don't have the slightest idea why, but they go really cheap here, brand multiregions go for $120 hehehe...

Anyway, peace to the dialers of good will

------------------
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Tam

quiet, because it is all about the minutes, who has the most traffic that can get the most minutes. When you get paid by the minute, then you have to worry about how many of them you get........ a normal sponsor, you get paid a flat rate regardless of how much time that surfer stays on the site or how long it takes him to get off. With Dialers, you are after the ones that will stay on the longest and get the most traffic. More traffic means more exposure and such, and so on and so on. AND well... I could go on for hours and hours.

Not to mention it is relatively easy for just about anyone to become a reseller in this game. MOST all Networks that I know of make them sign a contract to become a reseller, however, with the medium we work in, it is very tough to decide who is going to run off with the money and who isn't and you know how nasty that can get. We screen them the best we can, but how well can ya screen them when you can't possibly meet with them face to face? We are all pretty much blind and have to deal with people the best we can on here.

Then you have the new guys that are very much eager, and most very capable, of running their own program, but they are new so they do things that the ones of us have been in it for awhile, have grown out of so to speak. They spam, piss people off, and then have to basically start all over to gain respect again. Not to mention they see this as a fast way to make alot of money, so they sometimes don't realize how very hard it is to start this late in the game and have a large webmaster based list of people that will use them. Therefore, the proving themselves again comes into play. This person wants all the people they can, so they jack their rates and say "I can treat you and pay you better" and this and that.

I could go on all damn day, but I think this kind of gives you an idea of where I am coming from. There are MANY many things that factor in here........ and THEN we could go into all the things where alot of people think dialers are unethical so therefore the people that run them have just got to be unethical as well. It is just a whole snowball and recycling of hell that goes on that unless you are involved in a Dialer program as a Network owner/operator or a reseller, you just simply can't understand the hell that is involved in it. I am not saying any of us are better than the next, but when I say Dialer People are a whole different breed of people, this is exactly what I mean.

Bottom line? It all comes down to the minutes and who can get the most in whatever way they can get them.

GOD I hate babbling. lol

Tam

------------------
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DialerNET

So do we

Seriously though.. You summed it up pretty damn well.
Because it's relatively easy to become a reseller, there are people doing it that have had absolutely no experience at running their own "business".
Some come in with the attitude that they have to beat everyone else in order to be successful - and that's not what it's about at all. They treat it like a game.. trash talking each other with "yo momma" insults.
Unfortuntely they don't understand that public perception has a much bigger bearing on their success than they realise, and if they can't conduct themselves in a civilised manner in public, then it doesn't bode well for how they conduct themselves in business situations (12clicks is of course exempted as he is a God).

It's become very much like politics. It's more about finding the faults in the competition, instead of offering something different and valuable yourself.
And let's face it, not many people like politicians, so they are the last people you should try emulating.

Jason.

candidpublishinginc

You're in the audiotext business, and you hate dialers?

Fact is that dialers use 900 numbers just like your phone sex lines. How is it any difference? Most dialers charge $2.99 to $3.99 per minute these days via a 900 number.

------------------
Candid Clicks
Earn up to 4 cents a click for blind link traffic!
NO CONVERSIONS, NO BS!

Brad Mitchell

Okay, here goes...

Grumpy - Your suggestion that chargebacks for dialers are a mere .005% is surprising. I'd like to hear some feedback on that from others. If that's true, I suppose it speaks to the viability of the product. However, I doubt that's the real figure based on my experience with other pay-per-call services.

DialerNET - Okay, so you think I'm a dipshit. You've got to be pissed about something since I think dialers present no value proposition to the US consumer and that's how you make a living, right? I wasn't suggesting that I knew the in's and out's of the dialer business. What I was saying is that I've never seen any honest reasonably prominent disclosure of what the charges per minute will be to a US customer. What I have seen is incessant automatic download sessions starting with no real honest information about what's going on. I don't like dialers for that reason... and also because I don't believe there is a decent value proposition. How much per minute do your dialers charge US customers on average? It's entirely my right to think it's a scam to charge someone $3-whatever/min to connect to adult content over a regular land line.

It's funny how I hear people saying all the time how it's great for international traffic... Yet, above it was stated by someone that 73% of their traffic is US. So, keep doing what you're doing as it's completely within your rights. It's a free market and consumers are on the hook for using your products, ultimately. I'd be suprised if you get much US repeat business month after month - that would be a true indication of how the customers perceive the value.

Hats off to you if you're honest with your marketing, that was after all my main point. Likely the largest percentage of users of dialers DON'T know what they're getting into. So, if you're coming by your revenue in a completely honest manner then I think that's great. Do I still hate dialers? Yes, because you'll never convince me that charging X dollars per minute for a modem connection at 56k (at best) is a good value.

CandidPublishing - You basically reiterated that I'm in the 900 business and what's the difference between that and dialers. Well, besides the fact that mine is live entertainment connecting two people... There is another HUGE difference. 900 calls completely inform the consumer. Customer's aren't charged immediately as some might think. My lines are setup with approximately 45 seconds of free time. The structure is as follows: 1) sales pitch for the live phone sex, 2) disclaimers about it being an adult service, 3) pricing information stating the price per minute and connection fee and 4) finally a moment where in the recording it says "Billing begins when you hear the loud tone, please hang up now if you don't wish to be charged."

EVERYONE: Sorry for starting an arguement here, I'm discovering that I really don't have the time to probably see this all the way through with as many more responses as this post is bound to generate.

What I don't like about dialers is the lack of truth in advertising. Apparently, I'm not too far off based on the FTC actions against some of the companies out there. If you own your own program and you're running it honestly, I think that's teriffic. Everything has it's place in the market. It's really just an ethical issue to me - there's not much I can say to those of you who market dishonestly and don't give a fuck... obviously we fundamentally disagree on how to run a business. I couldn't sleep at night if my revenue was from false advertising, it's just that simple.

SO, best of luck to all of you in the dialer business. May you ride the gravy train as possible. I'm going to end with props to a company that I have respect for: Platinum Bucks. PlatinumDave is in business with his dialers and I think that's great. Fuck yeah I want to see him make bank, he's a great guy. My bitch isn't you dialer company owners - it's the lack of policing on all of your terms... I shot over to his site to grab one:

"4. Any Rules I need to follow?
There are only a few rules that we at Platinum Dialers have, they are You can NOT under any circumstances use the word FREE. This dialer is not free. This includes saying free download, free software, free giveaways, etc. Use common sense."

It's all the fuckers out there that market not by the rules that I don't like. So there, it's done. What else is there to discuss? If anyone wants to argue the merits of dishonest advertising they can go fuck themselves I won't even bother to respond.

Anyone that's coming by their revenue honestly is okay in my book, that's the bottom line.

TGIF...!

Brad

------------------
Phone Sex Pays! Earn cash promoting your own unique 800/900 vanity lines from SinTalk!

candidpublishinginc

Brad,

We own our own dialer network which we're going to officially launch in a few weeks. We've been testing our U.S. routes for nearly a year now, and let me tell you that Grumpy is 100% wrong. Most dialer resellers aren't aware of this, but dialer chargebacks can be quite high. (Although I'm told audiotext is just as bad these days!).

When we were using AT&T Multiquest, our chargebacks were at 44%. After AT&T decided to stop billing for adult, we moved to Integretel for billing. With Integretel we expect our chargebacks to be MUCH lower since they handle complaints much better than AT&T did.

Oh, other than the Unites States we don't have to worry about chargebacks anywhere else. Also about 45% of our surfers happen to be U.S. surfers.

Yes you're in the 900 business....the audiotext end of it. Even though I'm in dialers, I'm still in the 900 business since I own several data access 900 numbers in additional to various other domestic and international numbers.

The 45 seconds of "free time" you mentioned is the preamble. We have one too for our dialers, except that it's 18 seconds long. This allows the surfer to disconnect while the modem is still handshaking without being charged.

As for the sales pitch, disclaimer it's an adult service, price disclosure, etc. That's what our text disclaimer is for. It states CLEARLY the it's an adult service, and also clearly states that this service costs $3.99 per minute. In addition, it also shows the 900 number (or international if it's not a U.S. surfer) that's about to be dialed. How is that different from audiotext?

Also you mentioned that your phonesex service offers live one-one action while dialers just overcharge the surfer. This is not true. We offer our surfers imediate access to live feeds where they can chat with the model one-on-one, instant streaming movies, and pics! We optimized our content so it flies on even a 28.8 modem.

Hope this clears some stuff up about dialers.

------------------
Candid Clicks
Earn up to 4 cents a click for blind link traffic!
NO CONVERSIONS, NO BS!

[This message has been edited by candidpublishinginc (edited 01-18-2002).]

DialerNET

Not at all. I was just having a bit of fun with you with the last comment/insult. We try not to be too serious on this forum

I appreciate what you're saying, I just can't agree on it. Whether or not you think it's a scam to charge $3.99 a minute for porn is irrelevent. That's a decision that every surfer that uses the dialers has to make for themself. They clearly see the price per minute charge, plus the phone number that will be dialed when they launch the program. If they then still want to go ahead and connect, then they have obviously decided that they are willing to pay that price.
It doesn't matter if YOU agree that they should, it only matters if THEY agree, accept it, and then press that connect button willingly knowing what will happen.

As for policing webmasters that advertise dialers as free.. We, and all the other larger dialer companies are constantly looking out for shady webmasters. I don't know where you get the idea that we aren't on the lookout for this.
EVERY sponsor program has cheaters that are getting away with it. But that doesn't mean we aren't doing our best to stop them.
Even if a dialer is advertised as free without our knowledge, the surfer is still going to see that they are going to be charged when they fire up the software.
Even autoinstalling ActiveX dialers still show the price and phone number BEFORE the surfer clicks the connect button.

In the past, there was a reason to hate dialers. There were way too many out there that were simply ripping people off. But times have changed, and it's now just another honest way to make a living that has had a hard time getting accepted due to it's clouded past and petty reseller wars.

Jason.

------------------
DialerNET - Up to 90 cents per minute.
Find better rates, and we'll try to beat them.
We can host your dialers free, but you can name them whatever you want.
We pay by check or wire. Wires at NO charge!

[This message has been edited by DialerNET (edited 01-18-2002).]

Brad Mitchell

Candid,
Dialer..


Two very good responses, thank you :-) Yes, I know that it's hard to police webmasters and I'm sure that most of the sponsors are doing it. My only experiences with dialers have been from surfing sites and perhaps I've just had bad luck in not ever seeing proper disclosures or advertising. I am somehow confident that not all the dialer sponsors out there take the right measures to inform surfers and there has to be quite a few sponsors that rarely police all of their affiliates - especially in light of companies who have affiliates... who have affiliates... who have affiliates. Ya know?

Anyways, I think it would be good for our industry if we continued to see the rift-raft clean up and taken offline.

Best of luck

Brad

Theo

no need to worry, start typing one. Dont be afraid. I promise everything will be cool...... until you press the submit button

B.Diker

lol. everything for a DvD player ? just go & buy. not too expensive . . . .

------------------
Bora Diker
Contact Icq : 2044000
No bullshit, no shaving, no funny payout structure, no funny small print, make huge amount of money with Dialoff.Com : Since Aug. 2000

Brad Mitchell

I thought everyone already had a DVD player? Boy, to EVERYONE OUT THERE - if you don't have a DVD player take a break from your GFY posting and get some work done so you can spend 120 bucks on one!!

Brad

SNOW

That was some great feedback and discussion..I do believe the dialer industry will clean up and there will be a standard rate for everything eventually. If the US does ever go away ,there will always be a foreign market..

Chargebacks in the Usa are huge and is mainly the reason why lines get shut down.. I have been in the dialer game for over 2 years now. The competiton is BRUTAL and all the big players who used to send me minutes are now resellers.. I would have to say there are easily 400 resellers out there..

It's like tam said though minutes ,minutes ,minutes.. You have them and your god.. When I was doing huge minutes before my partner jumped sail,everyone wanted my ass,why do you think I got so much publicity when the shit hit the fan.. There are dialer people running off with peoples money every day and you never hear about it..

I do believe there are some legit and ethical companies out there that will play safe.. I still think many many people have a distorted view of how it all works,but in time I do believe dialers will come to a safe medium and that will probably be when US routes are offered at a lower rate..

It's the US routes that make dialers so wishy washy and bring on the heat. .It's a seat of the pants income.. You can be making bank one day the next day its gone..

The moment that route goes down the company has to be be prepared to move over all the dialer accounts to new routes.. That's why they have developed the plug in dialers. They can change routes on the fly without a hiccup.In the old days which was 8 mos ago,If a route went down It was a catastrophy.

I still see a big future in dialers especially when DSL and cable technology hit the net.Broadband is gonna be a huge money maker and dialers will be made to suit those demands..

Terms and conditions is the bottom line on the surfers end,but as far as rules and regulatons as to how you use your routes and how your software is developed is another..The UK requires a timer on a dialer and many dialer companies dont even obide by these rules.. So not only the guy whos promoting is fucking up,but the actual platform doing illegal shit to gain more minutes.. It is just controlled by too many hands..

You have to be so careful who you deal with,and I will never do a deal again unless it's signed on contract..There is alot of new user friendly technologhy thats right around the corner that should be intresting..

Many views and opinions here and its all great to see all your inputs..HOpe mine added a little more..

SNOW semi-retired dialer guy

------------------
Mafia of all Mafias.Now get whacked.

MAFIABUCKS.COM

MAFIABUCKS--ComingSoon..
Vice President of Boneprone Familia.
---------------------

Theo

Snow hired a secretary! I cant believe he typed so many things!

Tam

We have a person that that is ALL they do is police sites. We run a VERY tight ship and minutes are wonderful, BUT if they come at the risk of our company we damn well do not want them. I have to say here that most all the resellers that resell for us are very good about reporting to me even if they have the cheater on their account.

This is not to say we don't have them, I am sure we do, BUT when we find them, their goose is cooked and I don't even wanna hear "Well I get over 1k minutes a day" as I have heard many many times. If they get 1 minute a day or 10,000 minutes a day, if they cheat, they get shut down. I am not about to risk our ENTIRE company over even one cheater and this is exactly what is happening when you let a cheater go. To ME, and this may not be for everyone, if they are cheating, then they are showing no respect for the service we have provided them as a means to make their money so why in the hell should I show them the respect of paying them?

I am not saying we are perfect, we are not, no one is. But we do run a pretty honest establishment and we DO police our sites. On our forms, we do not ask how many hits a day they have to their sites, we want the SITES, we HAVE to have an url for them to signup with and we do not send them unless we have it.

We don't JUST police them at payday to keep from paying people either. Varadox is more than happy and love paying the ones that run an honest promotion, but we want the cheaters the hell away from our software and do NOT tolerate a cheater for even 5 minutes once they are caught.

We also expect our resellers to conduct themselves in a professional manner. I can't tell you how many times I have seen one of my resellers going for the throat of a competitive Network and I have gotten to them immediately and told them to back off, this is NOT the way Varadox operates. We do not want to be a company that is always trying to destroy the competition..... and if they are resellers of ours, then they ARE representing our company and I damn well CAN control them to a degree. I see alot saying that they can't control them, well they damn well can......... if someone represents you or your company then you damn well can make sure they represent you, and you have that right to do so. I don't tell them every move to make, but when I signup a new one and find them spamming boards or just starting shit, I WILL go after them and just ask that they stop doing these things, even will HELP them get honest promotions going. But we expect them to handle themselves in a way that reflects positively on our company. And trust me, a few do NOT like this at all. LMAO

EVERYONE that uses a dialer knows the basic rules so if they are breaking the rules, they DAMN well know they are doing it, therefore, ZERO tolerance is put into place. We don't play with them at all.

So SinEmpire, some of us DO indeed police our sites andn ot all of us run an unethical business. As Snow says, the dialer industry IS cleaning up, but it just needed some help doing it. I am not sure about anyone else, but I have some of the best people reselling for me and they do their part in helping clean it up. I honestly don't think some of them realized the capacity of the work they were in for when starting to resell, but they are doing their part and when I do find a cheater and alert them of it, 99% of them will take care of their people immediately. :P

It takes time to clean up the messes that were made there for awhile but I think pretty much all of them are now cleaning their people up. As I have said before, I don't care WHO you are, you cheat, you go!!.

Tam

------------------
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Theo

Snow 476 words
Tam 729 words

we have a winner!

-=HUNGRYMAN=-

(with Soul winning the "Loser who actually took the time to COUNT the words AWARD")

Tam

Hungry...... rotfl
I was thinking the same thing but you have more balls than I have. I was trying to figure out why someone would want to sit and count them all..........

SOUL..... get back to damn work will ya? LMAO

------------------
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Theo

have you ever seen Microsoft Word?

-=HUNGRYMAN=-

Oh yeah ... I think I may have even tried to use that program once ...

ROFL ... Oops!

---------------
<a href="http://www.hotwebmistresses.com">
<IMG SRC="http://www.hotwebmistresses.com/trans_recip.gif" border=0></a>
The Black Sheep of the Boneprone Family
I like to rub HERTURN on my nipples.

Theo

it has a nice counting function

SNOW

Soul The Greek, go make yourself a gyro and take a time out..

How many letterS and numbers quick

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbcccccccccc ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccdddddddddddddd dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd dddddddeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeefgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiijjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj jjjjjjjjjjjjjjj1jjjjjjjjjjjkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk kkkkkkklllllllllllllllllllllll lllllmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnooo ooooooooooooooop-qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrssssss ssssssssssttttttttttttttttuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuvvvv vvvvvvvvvvvvv vwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxyyyyyyyyyyyyyy zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz