A rural Quebec'rs point of view on Seperation

[painintheass]

I posted this in another thread on seperation. I thought it sufficently states where many other Quebec'rs have of their points of view of.

Originally Posted by RawAlex

painintheass, your experience is like many people living in rural Quebec. Thankfully, the arrival of the internet, satelite TV, and other things has helped to broaden the horizons, ever so slightly, of the people least in touch with the world.

The question of seperation beings on the question of seperating the parts... does quebec city want to leave but montreal stay part of Canada? Where do you draw the line? Would perhaps the cote nord like to go, leaving the rest of us as canadians? It's a hard question.

I give up.

Alex

Thank you for saying that this does happen. Being from Rural Quebec often
feels like we are not part of Quebec at all. It's like we are another country caught in a "Tail of 2 Cities", Montreal and Quebec.

Think aout it, someone from Gaspe decides to visit Montreal. It's at least 15 hours by car or over $125 cdn by bus. And the bus isn't even an option for someone outside of Gaspe. They would have to commute to, ie: drive for over an hour, to the bus stop.

From my perspective, most politicians don't give a shit about us... but when an election comes around they go out into areas like mine, because it is the rural communities that put them in power and not the big cities.

In the rural areas they find the all the elderly and iliterate and basically tell them these things:

1. "The Liberals/english are going to make it worse for you."
   (***Note to a rural Quebec'r the Liberals and English are the same thing***)
   
   "The english are not your friends."
   
   "They don't care what happens to the french. Thats why your schools, hospitals, etc are bad."
   
   "Do you want your grand-children or children not being able to speak french. Because thats what they will do. Take your children away from you."
   
   etc etc etc.

They never say this stuff on a stage. But they sure as hell have no problemes talking like this when they sit down with you during a Lions club dinner.

You must understand the average person in Rural areas of Quebec has never been further than Quebec city. You should hear how they talk about thier visit for the next 10 years. They have no concept of understanding of the nation outside of their little communities.

Most Rural Quebec'rs are not scared to get into a fight. Hell, most of us have no problemes with a "Nock down and drag away" fight. But the above scares the shit out of us.

And yes this is scary shit to these kind of people. My parents were once one of them and so was I.

Ok, let me deal with the first part of your comment. The arrival of communications.

Satelite TV has changed things slightly. It has made many Quebec'rs in rural areas a little more peaceful. It means that instead of causing problemes on a saturday night they can sit at home and drink Wildcat beers because there is something good on Television.

As for Internet connection....
My friends are still screwed in my home ville. They can only get connection from one provider, the phone company.

The most they can get is dial up connection and although they say it is 56k. The best speeds they can connect at is apx 33k. The signal is cut off many times so it is not reliable. And for this service they pay...$29.95 with a one year contract.

To get highspeed they must petition the Hotel de ville to ask the company to put in a highspeed connection. Then they must get 100 people to sign up for 1 year contracts. And even if they do all that the best speed we get is 2meg adsl for a price of $56cdn a month including modem rental. (And you MUST use their modem. But you can choose to purchase it for close to $300cdn)

Again, it is not opening our horizons for us. Montreal and Quebec city are as out of touch with us as english Canada is out of touch with Montreal and Quebec.

You know... not to sound like I'm tooting my own horn. But I'm going to start another thread with this post. Seperation and the Rural Quebec'r

[painintheass]

Tabarnack!

I'm just going to wait and on Sainte-Jean Baptiste I'm going to burn both the Quebec and Canada flag.

Then I'm going to form my own seperatist parti and advocate seperation of Rural Quebec from Montreal and Quebec ville.

And we will do it Rural Quebec'r style... with guns, the help of the natives and as many bikers as we can subvert to our cause.

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by painintheass

Tabarnack!

I'm just going to wait and on Sainte-Jean Baptiste I'm going to burn both the Quebec and Canada flag.

Then I'm going to form my own seperatist parti and advocate seperation of Rural Quebec from Montreal and Quebec ville.

And we will do it Rural Quebec'r style... with guns, the help of the natives and as many bikers as we can subvert to our cause.

Why not forget about separating all together? Put it the fuck out of your mind, and oh, how about coming out west and talking to some people in Winnipeg, particularly St. Boniface? Then head out Alberta way and talk to some people out there. You'll find that we are Canadians first and formost and support ALL of Canada, as long as each area of Canada holds up their end.

I hate to keep making comparisons to the US, but look how people from one region tease people from another region, yet when push comes to shove on an international level they are ALL Americans and stand united as such. To me, that's how Canada should be. All of Canada. I see no threat to French culture at all, except for what is in the minds of some extremists who have infected the minds of a few million others.

To me, a united Canada is the best future we can have.

[RawAlex]

The threat to quebec culture is quebec culture. I was often amazed at my past work to hear people talk about "getting out of Canada" in on breathe, and then discussing what they saw on ER the night before - watching in english, of course. The french language and culture is always under attack, from the inside!

Seperation is a pipe dream, filtered with the rosiest glasses around. No sane seperatist ever talks about the reality of seperation, just the flag waving moments of "vive le quebec libre!". They never point out that Quebec has slipped in the last 20 year from a have to a have not province, that our population exceeds our output in GDP, etc.

Most importantly, they never discuss and choose to selectively ignore what happened the first time around, the mass exodus of companies, head offices, and people down the 401 to toronto and down the 417 to Ottawa. Montreal was once Canada's largest city and most prosperous, now, well... it is slowly slipping away. Rural citizens never get to find out that the slipping of the montreal and quebec city economies is the reason why the roads suck, services suck, and why there are no jobs (Rural Quebec's unemployment rates run anywhere from 10 - 30%, depending on the area). Many smaller towns are supported by single industries, which are often propped up by endless government dollars. Paper plants, mineral processing, etc... all built, maintained, or somehow supported by the quebec government tossing millions at the companies to stay. As soon as the money stops, the plants close and the people are unemployed again.

They get told it's the english people's fault, the foriegner's fault, everyone else's fault. Never does the government mention how unnatural their employment was to start with.

Quebec as a province suffers financially every day from pending possible or implied threats of seperation. If all the money, time, efforts, and such had been spent on improving the province and lowering taxes, quebec would be flying. Instead, we have language police out checking the size of english on signs on businesses to make sure that french predominates. Quebec shuns company executives and professionals from outside quebec because if they move here, their children will be forced to go to french schools, even if they are coming here for only one or two years. They have worked hard to make this the least inviting place in north america to do business.

Oh well. I can assure you of one thing, my house will be for sale before the next provincial election - the economic hit of a PQ government would take 10 years to recoup in that market.

Alex

[NoCarrier]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

Oh well. I can assure you of one thing, my house will be for sale before the next provincial election - the economic hit of a PQ government would take 10 years to recoup in that market.

Sure.. Exactly when PQ won the 1976 election..

"OHHH NO!!! WE ARE DOOMED.. THE ECONOMY WILL DIE!!!"..

I'll buy your house if you sell it. Then give you the plane tickets for free.

[painintheass]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Why not forget about separating all together? Put it the fuck out of your mind, and oh, how about coming out west and talking to some people in Winnipeg, particularly St. Boniface? Then head out Alberta way and talk to some people out there. You'll find that we are Canadians first and formost and support ALL of Canada, as long as each area of Canada holds up their end.

I hate to keep making comparisons to the US, but look how people from one region tease people from another region, yet when push comes to shove on an international level they are ALL Americans and stand united as such. To me, that's how Canada should be. All of Canada. I see no threat to French culture at all, except for what is in the minds of some extremists who have infected the minds of a few million others.

To me, a united Canada is the best future we can have.

But Canada is united right now and this situation continues. And that is just the point. If there was a third option... one that promised to put in better roads, stop the un-employment, get teachers that can actually read and write french, etc.

I would vote for them.

What I believe and I hope many others are too.

Is this:

1. Montreal and Quebec do not care about the rest of the province. They are not serious about seperation because they would actually have to govern and anything that goes wrong would be their fault. Not the federal goverment.

2. Federal Goverment likes the seperatists. Because as long as they play on the fears of rural Quebec'rs the seperatists remain in power and the federal goverment is not obligated to get involved directly with out problems. They can pretend to blind to the issues and blame the seperatists for our problems the same way the seperatists blame the federals for them.

For me I would vote for anyone that gets people off of the welfare

[SilverTab]

enough with the threads on separation, 95% of people here don't give a shit anyway....

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by painintheass

But Canada is united right now and this situation continues.

No, it isn't. If it were united there would be no talk of separation, by anyone anywhere in Canada.

Sorry, you're wrong.

Give my above post some more thought.

[tedwinters]

Originally Posted by painintheass

But Canada is united right now and this situation continues. And that is just the point. If there was a third option... one that promised to put in better roads, stop the un-employment, get teachers that can actually read and write french, etc.

I would vote for them.

Unfortunately, that would require a raise in taxes... Or at least, a RADICAL reforming of government (Look at Klein in Alberta as an example.. He blew up hospitals, refused raises for teachers and nurses, and pushed privatization on everybody...)
Whether it was a good idea or not, we don't know.. But it did reduce the debt.. (as did him being aided by high oil prices..)

To answer other questions, from what I understand, Montreal is currently sitting at a 30% separation rate, gaining strength among the 'young', because it's currently in style to be separatist.. (and remember, the young love to protest...)
Quebec city is sitting at about 80%...

[painintheass]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

No, it isn't. If it were united there would be no talk of separation, by anyone anywhere in Canada.

Sorry, you're wrong.

Give my above post some more thought.

I have...
And the one thing I can't get out of my head is this.

When I was 14 my mother married a new man and we moved to NB for 4 years. My fourth day of (francophone) school was the most embarrising day of my life.

I could not read.
I could not write.

And when questioned by school staff. I could not say all the letters of the alphabet.

In those days I could not speak english. French is my maternal language, and I could not read the books of maternelle.

To me this is what the rest of the province and country must think about.

[Jaymus.]

Who honestly cares anymore if they seperate? They've been wanting to seperate for over a decade now, wasting canadian taxpayers money on these issues. If Quebec succeeds with their crazy plans it will take them years to actually seperate, and even then they will be so closely tied to canada it will be like they never left.

The first issue will be splitting up our national debt, you think we'll let Quebec off easy after all this bullshit?

[NoCarrier]

Originally Posted by Jaymus.

For over a decade now

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by painintheass

I have...
And the one thing I can't get out of my head is this.

When I was 14 my mother married a new man and we moved to NB for 4 years. My fourth day of (francophone) school was the most embarrising day of my life.

I could not read.
I could not write.

And when questioned by school staff. I could not say all the letters of the alphabet.

In those days I could not speak english. French is my maternal language, and I could not read the books of maternelle.

To me this is what the rest of the province and country must think about.

And you think separating is the answer? Christ sakes I hoped you were smarter than this.

Maybe it's the PQ and all the high-level separatists who want to keep people illiterate in Quebec. After all, an uneducated population is a controllable population. They do it in the name of preserving your culture of course, which as I said before is retarded. There IS no threat to French culture, except for what is in the minds of separatists. Other people of differing nationalities preserve their cultures and ethnicities just fine without bitching about wanting to separate.

You want better education for Quebec? Stop voting for the bloc party and start voting as Canadians. Then, instead of demanding to separate, try demanding for more funding to Quebec schools. Separating is not "the only answer", in fact it's no answer at all.

[Evil Chris]

Go to www.nfb.ca and search for the film "Action" The October Crisis of 1970.

It gives very good background on the French seperatist movement in Quebec.
Keep in mind that it was made in 1973, yet the seperatist ideals and rhetoric haven't changed much since then.

[NoCarrier]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

There IS no threat to French culture

Thanks to our 101 law created by the PQ in 76, forcing immigrants to Quebec to attend a French speaking school.

If that law didn't exist, our fight would be over by now.

And if you think that 7 million french speaking people in a sea of 300 million english speaking people isn't a threat to our culture, you are an idiot. Sorry, there is no other alternative.

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by NoCarrier

Thanks to our 101 law created by the PQ in 76, forcing immigrants to Quebec to attend a French speaking school.

If that law didn't exist, our fight would be over by now.

And if you think that 7 million french speaking people in a sea of 300 million english speaking people isn't a threat to our culture, you are an idiot. Sorry, there is no other alternative.

Preserve your fucking culture already, no one is stopping you. From what I've seen of QUebec the culture seems preserved quite nicely actually. I myself LIVE in a French community, and people here are also protective of their French heritage, so what?

Enough with the idiot bullshit. Relax and drop that stick out of your ass already.

And, some of your "laws" that you think are there to protect you are actually fucking retarded btw.

[painintheass]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

And you think separating is the answer? Christ sakes I hoped you were smarter than this.

Maybe it's the PQ and all the high-level separatists who want to keep people illiterate in Quebec. After all, an uneducated population is a controllable population. They do it in the name of preserving your culture of course, which as I said before is retarded. There IS no threat to French culture, except for what is in the minds of separatists. Other people of differing nationalities preserve their cultures and ethnicities just fine without bitching about wanting to separate.

You want better education for Quebec? Stop voting for the bloc party and start voting as Canadians. Then, instead of demanding to separate, try demanding for more funding to Quebec schools. Separating is not "the only answer", in fact it's no answer at all.

I own a beautiful home near Sheldrake. I hope to return and retire in the next 2 years, go home, plant a garden, enjoy nice quite conversations at the table and wait for telephone calls from my sons.

I have not the option to make life in this house until my boys go to university, because I knew that if I did my sons would most likely be trapped in the life I was lucky to escape.

But in the past I have voted PQ and I have voted Liberal.

My commentary is this:
If Federalists would fix the problemes of my region. I would vote for them.
If Seperatists would fix the problemes of my region. I would vote for them.

But all have had their chance. No one fixes anything.

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by painintheass

If Federalists would fix the problemes of my region. I would vote for them.
If Seperatists would fix the problemes of my region. I would vote for them.

But all have had their chance. No one fixes anything.

Then your community needs to find, elect and support an MP that can get the job done. For one thing, voting for the Bloc in a federal election is nuts, they are never going to form government, period. Your people need to vote for a party that has a chance of winning, and then make your MP's do their fucking job. If they don't, you elect someone else until your roads are safer and your schools are improved.

Tell me, why do you think Quebec schools are so far below what the rest of Canada's are?

And, if Quebec were to separate, from where do you think the new country would draw magical funds to affect the changes you desire? Fact is you would have no more federal or inter-provincial transfer money of any kind to fuel your economy. As in none. Zip.

If some of you think Canadians would put up with seeing money go to "the new country of Quebec" you're sadly mistaken I assure you.

[iwantchixx]

Man, the Gaspe Coast is one of the most BEAUTIFUL places in the world. I went on a cmaping trip along the whole peninsula and down the center on the main drag. What a beautiful and friendly place. I also have family in Escuminac. I think it's more english there than french now though.

I have one MAJOR complaint about Gaspe tho... where the fuck are the gas tax dollars going? Obviously NOT on road work. Shiat. It took them over a fucking year to repave the stretch from Point De Cross to Escuminac that they tore up to widen the road and rework the piping and etc... They just left it all torn up and muddy for a fucking year. The main drag at that.... it looked like the dirt roads heding back to North Branch....

[iwantchixx]

and as for the fears of losing your french culture.... stop ruinig your own culture then.

Stop watching American and Canadian english programming. Stop buying american games, stop buying cars made everywhere except quebec, stop relying on the Canadian government to fund your province.

Become self sufficiant.

I hear all this crying that people want to seperate but NOBODY steps up to the plate to create a self sufficiant economy, it's all smoke and mirrors created by crooked polititions who just want your vote.

You seperatists just want your cake and to eat it too like your politicians want you to do using "culture" as the excuse.

There is no threat to your culture except by your own means.

The Gaspe is a good example.. as beautiful and friendly as it is, there's nothing there except tourism, beer and ferench speeking Quebecers intermating with Aboriginals.

Then they cry that they have nothing then move to Campbelton and Moncton.... where it's even more english. Then continue to cry that their culture is being lost.

Stop relying on others then if you want to seperate so badly.

[painintheass]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Then your community needs to find, elect and support an MP that can get the job done. For one thing, voting for the Bloc in a federal election is nuts, they are never going to form government, period. Your people need to vote for a party that has a chance of winning, and then make your MP's do their fucking job. If they don't, you elect someone else until your roads are safer and your schools are improved.

You are missing the point.

THERE ARE NO GOOD FUCKING MPs!!! They ALL make the same fucking promises and once they are elected there is nothing we can do to get rid of them.

And it does NOT make matter if they are

english or french politicians.
Liberal or PQ.
Men from Venus or Women from Mars.
Bears or Moose.

And in all of this conversation this is what all fail to make realization. It makes no difference who we vote for. The result will be the same for us.

I would vote for George Bush if he put better doctors in our our hospital.

To me, seperatist or federalists are as it is said.... SAME SHIT DIFFERENT PILE!

We can not find a better person to become an MP because in our area most simple people.

Can you imagine a hairdresser or an labourer that is out of work because he does not have a construction card proving he knows how to do his job going to Ottawa?

It does not happen because they are not articulate enough and they do not have the money. You can't drive for 6 hours to Matane for a meeting if can't afford the $0.99 litre essence in their 15 year old car. And if you join a political party you have to become very active before you can be a canidate.

Politics is the playground of the wealthy. If you do not have that money to start with or a $20/hr job. You can not play. It is that simple.

You must understand that in Rural Quebec you can purchase full size homes for less than $15K cdn. To most of these people this is a life savings.

When most of the people in the rest of the country makes initial downpayments on purchasing of a home at twice that amount and hopes they can qualify for a 100k mortgage. Most still are renting in my region and living on welfare.

When you say things to me like "Why do you think that is?" You sound just like the same thing we are always getting.

When the seperatists come into my ville they say it is the federalist fault.
When the federalists come into my ville they say it is the seperatists fault.

The words "Why do you think that is?" is the famous first words for seperatist and federalist politicians.

I will answer to you why it is...

Because both sides build their careers and drive expensive cars on the backs of the lower class. They have no interest in doing anything to help anyone but themselfs.

[Freakster]

Originally Posted by Jaymus.

They've been wanting to seperate for over a decade now, wasting canadian taxpayers money on these issues.

Are we really to blame for what the Liberal party did? I sure hope not, because the rest of the Canada elected them, not Quebec. I'm not taking any side on this, but your aguments are weak, not to say untrue.

[RawAlex]

nocarrier, I will give you a discount, my neighbor sold for over 550k, I will let you have mine for 500k... got the bucks?

Alex

[skillfull]

Originally Posted by painintheass

You are missing the point.

THERE ARE NO GOOD FUCKING MPs!!! They ALL make the same fucking promises and once they are elected there is nothing we can do to get rid of them.

And it does NOT make matter if they are

english or french politicians.
Liberal or PQ.
Men from Venus or Women from Mars.
Bears or Moose.

And in all of this conversation this is what all fail to make realization. It makes no difference who we vote for. The result will be the same for us.

I would vote for George Bush if he put better doctors in our our hospital.

To me, seperatist or federalists are as it is said.... SAME SHIT DIFFERENT PILE!

We can not find a better person to become an MP because in our area most simple people.

Can you imagine a hairdresser or an labourer that is out of work because he does not have a construction card proving he knows how to do his job going to Ottawa?

It does not happen because they are not articulate enough and they do not have the money. You can't drive for 6 hours to Matane for a meeting if can't afford the $0.99 litre essence in their 15 year old car. And if you join a political party you have to become very active before you can be a canidate.

Politics is the playground of the wealthy. If you do not have that money to start with or a $20/hr job. You can not play. It is that simple.

You must understand that in Rural Quebec you can purchase full size homes for less than $15K cdn. To most of these people this is a life savings.

When most of the people in the rest of the country makes initial downpayments on purchasing of a home at twice that amount and hopes they can qualify for a 100k mortgage. Most still are renting in my region and living on welfare.

When you say things to me like "Why do you think that is?" You sound just like the same thing we are always getting.

When the seperatists come into my ville they say it is the federalist fault.
When the federalists come into my ville they say it is the seperatists fault.

The words "Why do you think that is?" is the famous first words for seperatist and federalist politicians.

I will answer to you why it is...

Because both sides build their careers and drive expensive cars on the backs of the lower class. They have no interest in doing anything to help anyone but themselfs.

i must admit there is a lot of stupid things going around in quebec
but we have to face big problem

for the road its simple, our territory is 3 times bigger than France with what, 10 or 15 times less people to pay for it ? lets say that the size of our territory doesnt help.
Something cool about separation is that we will be able to give more power to the regions, so the rural area of Quebec will be able to directly solve local problem, beside havng to wait after Quebec/Ottawa.

I'm just back from Quebec city yesterday, what a fucking cool place it would be for the country capital :0)

[skillfull]

and i think i can understand you perfectly painintheass
i'm from a semi-rural place, so a lot of people i know are rural im from Trois-Rivieres, between Montreal and Quebec city)
where you can pass from that


to that



in a 25 minutes drive :P

[TTiger]

wow!exporter le debat de la separation du quebec sur GFY faut le faire

[RawAlex]

skillfull, the problem is with that much territory, the regions suffer because they end up spending too much money for roads, infrastructure and other things on a per resident basis. Too much money has been spent over the year in the regions to keep people employed by having the government of the day provide grants, tax exempt status, and make huge investments in projects that fail regularly.

The Gaspe is truly one of the most beautiful places in the world, but it is also NOT self supporting in any way shape or form, and like the north shore, represents a huge drain on Quebec's resources. These are the people who most want to seperate, and yet they will have little left when they do seperate. Nobody has bothered to explain to them that with upwards to 50% combined retirement, unemployment, and welfare cases, many of these areas are NOT going to be able to cut it. Too few people paying into the system, too many people taking out of the system. In many cases, the people paying into the system are working jobs that exist only because government money way put on the table to get a plant built or to modernize a factory of some sort. I know the drill, I worked for and with many people from gaspe (including nice places like Chandler, Rimouski, Mont Joli, and others... ) They would tell me stories of how people would work government supported jobs just long enough to get enough weeks to get unemployment, then go on unemployment so other people could have a job long enough to get unemployment checks. It's the same sort of thing that for years has made Newfoundland the sinkhole for federal and provincial monies.

If Quebec's GDP as a percentage of the canadian total was higher than the percentage of population, there might be a hope, but a it is, seperation today would lead to a worse tomorrow. The numbers are very clear, no matter how hard the seperatist types try to bury the truth under flags and such.

painintheass, if you are coming back to montreal, finding an apartment isn't too hard, providing you don't want anything too wild.

Alex

[painintheass]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

painintheass, if you are coming back to montreal, finding an apartment isn't too hard, providing you don't want anything too wild.
Alex

I just want a 2 bedroom, something relatively cheap and keeps the rain of my head.

The only criteria I have is that I am a pornographer and I've been out of the country for 2 years. I don't want to have to do a credit application. IE: "What do you do for a living madame? etc. I'm willing to pay cash and I don't need alot of questions asked.

[Dina_C9]

Originally Posted by TTiger

wow!exporter le debat de la separation du quebec sur GFY faut le faire

moi aussi j'ai pense la meme chose

[Shap]

It's bullshit like this that makes me happy i left quebec and confirms that I'll never return. I'm haven't even read the posts in this thread LOL just the topic makes me happy i left. Oh and the no taxes and year long sun help too

[CDSmith]

Originally Posted by painintheass

You are missing the point.

I find it amusing that every time someone says this to me it is in fact they who are missing the point.


Speaking of apartments and cost of living, did you know that here in St. Boniface Manitoba the average rent for a 1 br is around $475/mth? I am a rental property owner here, and the 1 br apartment that is upstairs from me I charge $525/mth for. It has a huge living room, a huge bathroom and includes all utilities, insuite washer & dryer, fridge, stove, storage room, and one parking space. The only bill other than rent that my tenant has is the phone bill. That's right, I include cable. :D

Of course it has been rented every month for the past 10 years, won't be available until probably next year. lol

For $500 a month Cdn you could have a decent apartment in a Francophone community. A little west of what you originally had in mind, yes... but your troubles over separatists and federalists would be basically over.

[TTiger]

this separatism vs federalism suck!
we just need harper as canada prime minister and mario dumont as quebec PM
, jeff fillion a quebec city mayor stephane gendron as montreal mayon and ill be happy

[canplayer]

Originally Posted by NoCarrier

Thanks to our 101 law created by the PQ in 76, forcing immigrants to Quebec to attend a French speaking school.

If that law didn't exist, our fight would be over by now.

And if you think that 7 million french speaking people in a sea of 300 million english speaking people isn't a threat to our culture, you are an idiot. Sorry, there is no other alternative.

While I believe that the law is unconstitutional and any lawyer or educated person would agree, it should still be left to the individual to decide where they send their kids. Only in a messed up province like Quebec (with the OLF) do we have such idiotic laws. At least we have a low crime rate, think that's one of the reasons people still even live in this province.

[skillfull]

Originally Posted by RawAlex

skillfull, the problem is with that much territory, the regions suffer because they end up spending too much money for roads, infrastructure and other things on a per resident basis. Too much money has been spent over the year in the regions to keep people employed by having the government of the day provide grants, tax exempt status, and make huge investments in projects that fail regularly.

The Gaspe is truly one of the most beautiful places in the world, but it is also NOT self supporting in any way shape or form, and like the north shore, represents a huge drain on Quebec's resources. These are the people who most want to seperate, and yet they will have little left when they do seperate. Nobody has bothered to explain to them that with upwards to 50% combined retirement, unemployment, and welfare cases, many of these areas are NOT going to be able to cut it. Too few people paying into the system, too many people taking out of the system. In many cases, the people paying into the system are working jobs that exist only because government money way put on the table to get a plant built or to modernize a factory of some sort. I know the drill, I worked for and with many people from gaspe (including nice places like Chandler, Rimouski, Mont Joli, and others... ) They would tell me stories of how people would work government supported jobs just long enough to get enough weeks to get unemployment, then go on unemployment so other people could have a job long enough to get unemployment checks. It's the same sort of thing that for years has made Newfoundland the sinkhole for federal and provincial monies.

If Quebec's GDP as a percentage of the canadian total was higher than the percentage of population, there might be a hope, but a it is, seperation today would lead to a worse tomorrow. The numbers are very clear, no matter how hard the seperatist types try to bury the truth under flags and such.

painintheass, if you are coming back to montreal, finding an apartment isn't too hard, providing you don't want anything too wild.

Alex

dont know who said that earlisest in that thread but

Temporary foreign workers can choose the language of instruction and educational institution for their children for the duration of their stay.

and some straight fact about separation

Quebec as a country will be richer, check you fucking GPD stats, its higher per capita in Quebec that in the ROC
and check Jane Jacobs report on a separated Quebec economy, it will grow faster than a the canadian one...

next, following the internation right , Quebec shouldnt have to pay for anything on his territory, so ALL federal stuff will become Quebec stuff without any dealing from our part, we have allready military base, custom, post office and everything we need (check the report of the C.D. Howe Institut for that part, and its in the Vienne convention)

we will have to pay between 16,6% and 32% of the Canada debt, so it not a big deal...

so, if we remove the propaganda, its not a bad idea at all after all

[skillfull]

Originally Posted by canplayer

While I believe that the law is unconstitutional and any lawyer or educated person would agree, it should still be left to the individual to decide where they send their kids. Only in a messed up province like Quebec (with the OLF) do we have such idiotic laws. At least we have a low crime rate, think that's one of the reasons people still even live in this province.

this law solved a LOt of problem here

[skillfull]

and by the way
its only a matter of time now

[CDSmith]

Skillful dude, the only thing you are convincing me of is that you are all brainwashed by the PQ propoganda that has avalanched your people over the past 10-20 years.

I suppose we'll just have to all wait and see how this plays out, won't we? Do you think you are going to solve anything here on GFY? Then why all the flag-waving?

[skillfull]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Skillful dude, the only thing you are convincing me of is that you are all brainwashed by the PQ propoganda that has avalanched your people over the past 10-20 years.

I suppose we'll just have to all wait and see how this plays out, won't we? Do you think you are going to solve anything here on GFY? Then why all the flag-waving?

i don't think i will solve anything here but i think i can make some of you understand our point of view

[slavdogg]

the solution is simple
deport RawAlex to France

[yys]

Originally Posted by skillfull

i don't think i will solve anything here but i think i can make some of you understand our point of view

Quit smoking the rock. When seperatists in Quebec talk about what will happen when they vote yes it's like their collective i.q. plummets.

I will say it too you quite clearly. YOU ARE A POOR PROVINCE .

Your GDP is smaller then your percentage of the population Canada(21%). You are the 2nd largest province yet Quebec's GDP per capita, a measure of standard of living, amounted to $30 290 in 2000, ranking fifth among provinces and 12 percent below the Canadian average.

Well I don't have the exact numbers, for every $1 Quebec pays into the federal system through everything from taxes to e.i. and such you receive more then $1 back, i.e.$1.20; basically your welfare payment.

You guys are hilarious. Your akin to the child that the parents always help out with cash so the child can get ahead and make a better life for themselves. When the child talks with his parents he never says thanks for the help but instead launchs into a spiel about how their parents are holding them back and are stealing his/her money. Your the national joke.

I just paid a nice chunk of change on my Federal taxes, can I have some back as you don't seem to think your province needs it and I'm sick of supporting your socialist asses in Quebec. Run provincial daycare and all your other state shit on your own dime or quit your whining.


Finally, quit talking about this association b.s. . It's a non starter outside Quebec. Your either with us or not. If not say goodbye to all the Quebec members of parliment and all the rat P.M.'s that Quebec has churned out over the last 50 years and get ready to have your asses handed too you by english canadian politicians. Say goodbye to all the support payments we send your way. Get ready to bend over for Uncle Sam when you have to sign new treaties with them as you won't be a party to the Canadian ones anymore; you'll fare pretty well in NAFTA negotiations when the congress and senate get a chance to rework the terms for you .

[iwantchixx]

It's no use arguing with a separatist. They're brainwashed and full of blame. How they think that Canada as a nation would agree to letting them go peacefully without paying their part of the national debt is beyond me. Guaranteed there would be a civil war over it. Those lazy bastards want to take money with them as well as run away from their responsibilities... their share of the debt as well as not pay back all the money they scammed out of social money pots funded by the Canadian government..

ATT:: SEPARATISTS:
news flash terrorist, (yes, I said terrorist. You'd be stealing money from hard working Canadians' pockets who actually try to better their lives as opposed to taking advantage of your own government) anyways, back to my point.. New flash guys.. you have nothing. If you somehow succeed to gain separation without being beheaded by pissed off Canadians you'll all be broke in a few years and be coming back crawling to Canada for financial, medical and educational aid... such as you do now. Not only that.. even if you manage to build an industry somehow after sucking back 2 12 packs of Molson and whining that your country deserted you you'll find that nobody will want to do trade with you. Do you really think that Canada would fatten your industrial wallets after you took off without paying your share of the debt which is actually extremely high and taking some of our economic growth with it??

yeah, fat chance.

If you don't like the way the government runs things then leave the country and move to some place like Iraq because you obviously aren't appreciative of the opportunities that are sitting right in fucking front of you. If you want to better your lives.. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT instead of whining and trying to scam our great country. Put someone in officee who actually cares about the people, work year round for once and get off the fucking peace pipe and stop sticking your dicks in them dirty fucking drug haze induced love affairs on the Indian reservations so you can pull more money from the government.

Fucking ungrateful bastards. The opportunities are right in front of you. Either make the best with what you got or move. If you don't want to move in fear of losing your culture then move to fucking France and shut the fuck up. You're ruining your own culture by sitting there whining, soaking up American media and sitting there drunk night after night crying and sobbing that you have no work.
What the fuck is your culture anyways? As far as I could tell when I lived up north there was one culture,, get drunk, fight and fuck and draw welfare. You have no culture anyways. Only difference between French and English is language.
You fucking cowards.
You're the same line of stinkers that hid in the damn woods to avoid the draft when Canada went to WW2 while my grandfather fought, killed innocent children and families trying to save cities from air raids just so you could have a sense of freedom and to save those poor souls overseas being massacred by mile long chains of bombers effectively ruining his own mental health.... and you expect sympathy from good Canadian people?
A heartfelt fuck you.

[directfiesta]

Originally Posted by iwantchixx

It's no use arguing with a separatist. They're brainwashed and full of blame. How they think that Canada as a nation would agree to letting them go peacefully without paying their part of the national debt is beyond me. Guaranteed there would be a civil war over it. Those lazy bastards want to take money with them as well as run away from their responsibilities... their share of the debt as well as not pay back all the money they scammed out of social money pots funded by the Canadian government..

ATT:: SEPARATISTS:
news flash terrorist, (yes, I said terrorist. You'd be stealing money from hard working Canadians' pockets who actually try to better their lives as opposed to taking advantage of your own government) anyways, back to my point.. New flash guys.. you have nothing. If you somehow succeed to gain separation without being beheaded by pissed off Canadians you'll all be broke in a few years and be coming back crawling to Canada for financial, medical and educational aid... such as you do now. Not only that.. even if you manage to build an industry somehow after sucking back 2 12 packs of Molson and whining that your country deserted you you'll find that nobody will want to do trade with you. Do you really think that Canada would fatten your industrial wallets after you took off without paying your share of the debt which is actually extremely high and taking some of our economic growth with it??

yeah, fat chance.

If you don't like the way the government runs things then leave the country and move to some place like Iraq because you obviously aren't appreciative of the opportunities that are sitting right in fucking front of you. If you want to better your lives.. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT instead of whining and trying to scam our great country. Put someone in officee who actually cares about the people, work year round for once and get off the fucking peace pipe and stop sticking your dicks in them dirty fucking drug haze induced love affairs on the Indian reservations so you can pull more money from the government.

Fucking ungrateful bastards. The opportunities are right in front of you. Either make the best with what you got or move. If you don't want to move in fear of losing your culture then move to fucking France and shut the fuck up. You're ruining your own culture by sitting there whining, soaking up American media and sitting there drunk night after night crying and sobbing that you have no work.
What the fuck is your culture anyways? As far as I could tell when I lived up north there was one culture,, get drunk, fight and fuck and draw welfare. You have no culture anyways. Only difference between French and English is language.
You fucking cowards.
You're the same line of stinkers that hid in the damn woods to avoid the draft when Canada went to WW2 while my grandfather fought, killed innocent children and families trying to save cities from air raids just so you could have a sense of freedom and to save those poor souls overseas being massacred by mile long chains of bombers effectively ruining his own mental health.... and you expect sympathy from good Canadian people?
A heartfelt fuck you.

123454678

[Phoenix]

i hope this issue dies off soon...it would suck to see a military action against our own people in my lifetime

[directfiesta]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

i hope this issue dies off soon...it would suck to see a military action against our own people in my lifetime

I saw it.

[RawAlex]

Been there done that. I remember the soldiers checking my house 35 years ago. Can you say "scary stuff" for a little kid?

Alex

[painintheass]

Originally Posted by iwantchixx

It's no use arguing with a separatist. They're brainwashed and full of blame. How they think that Canada as a nation would agree to letting them go peacefully without paying their part of the national debt is beyond me. Guaranteed there would be a civil war over it. Those lazy bastards want to take money with them as well as run away from their responsibilities... their share of the debt as well as not pay back all the money they scammed out of social money pots funded by the Canadian government..

ATT:: SEPARATISTS:
news flash terrorist, (yes, I said terrorist. You'd be stealing money from hard working Canadians' pockets who actually try to better their lives as opposed to taking advantage of your own government) anyways, back to my point.. New flash guys.. you have nothing. If you somehow succeed to gain separation without being beheaded by pissed off Canadians you'll all be broke in a few years and be coming back crawling to Canada for financial, medical and educational aid... such as you do now. Not only that.. even if you manage to build an industry somehow after sucking back 2 12 packs of Molson and whining that your country deserted you you'll find that nobody will want to do trade with you. Do you really think that Canada would fatten your industrial wallets after you took off without paying your share of the debt which is actually extremely high and taking some of our economic growth with it??

yeah, fat chance.

If you don't like the way the government runs things then leave the country and move to some place like Iraq because you obviously aren't appreciative of the opportunities that are sitting right in fucking front of you. If you want to better your lives.. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT instead of whining and trying to scam our great country. Put someone in officee who actually cares about the people, work year round for once and get off the fucking peace pipe and stop sticking your dicks in them dirty fucking drug haze induced love affairs on the Indian reservations so you can pull more money from the government.

Fucking ungrateful bastards. The opportunities are right in front of you. Either make the best with what you got or move. If you don't want to move in fear of losing your culture then move to fucking France and shut the fuck up. You're ruining your own culture by sitting there whining, soaking up American media and sitting there drunk night after night crying and sobbing that you have no work.
What the fuck is your culture anyways? As far as I could tell when I lived up north there was one culture,, get drunk, fight and fuck and draw welfare. You have no culture anyways. Only difference between French and English is language.
You fucking cowards.
You're the same line of stinkers that hid in the damn woods to avoid the draft when Canada went to WW2 while my grandfather fought, killed innocent children and families trying to save cities from air raids just so you could have a sense of freedom and to save those poor souls overseas being massacred by mile long chains of bombers effectively ruining his own mental health.... and you expect sympathy from good Canadian people?
A heartfelt fuck you.

You know what this was a great conversation until decided to become an idiot. But again someone always has to start and there is always a blueneck somewhere trying to claim an ignorant moral highground.

• 1. I wasn't in WW2 and niether were you.
  
  2. Although Canada was at war. We as a nation were never really in a great amount of danger. It was a mostly european and later american-japanese thing.
  
  3. There was alot of draft dodgers during WW2. Priminister William Lyon Mackenzie King during his campain for election and in office he promised that he would NEVER institute a draft in Canada. He later revoked that promise in the infamouse national security plebiscite.

Originally Posted by William Lyon Mackenzie King

The pledge from which the present government is asking to be freed is not related to any ordinary day-to-day matter of policy. It is a pledge which was made specifically in relation to the conduct of the present war. It is a pledge which was given, by government and opposition alike, before and since the outbreak of the war, and to which, at the time it was made, no political party took exception. The present House of Commons was returned in the light of that pledge.

The pledge to which I refer is, as you are all aware, that, as a method of raising men for military service overseas, resort would not be had to conscription. In other words, that voluntary enlistment would be the method by which men would be raised for service overseas.

That promise is a restriction upon the government today. It is, as I have said, not a legal restriction. It is a moral obligation and I need not add a moral obligation of the most solemn kind. It is equally the one and only restriction upon the exercise by the government of its full power

I have watched Skillful and CDsmith debate both sides of the argument. It has been heated from time to time and it is obvious they don't agree very much. But neither of them has resorted to being an billigerant asshole.

I for one was actually getting something out of the debate. So with that allow me to apologize as a Quebec'r to your Grandfather for a war he was in over 60 years ago. If it is any consolation, mine was there too and I'm told he voluntered at the start of the war.

[RawAlex]

painintheass: email me at hotmail and I will give you a phone number to call...

Alex

[painintheass]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

For $500 a month Cdn you could have a decent apartment in a Francophone community. A little west of what you originally had in mind, yes... but your troubles over separatists and federalists would be basically over.

If I wanted to I could just move to NB or Scotia and pay alot less than that and just associate with Acadiens. (My best friend out here is acadien)

But in this case you really are missing a point on several points.

1. I'm a pornographer and although Manitoba is a nice place I do not think I am going to have many girls linning up to get fucked in front of my camera.

2. If it was just a French experience I was seeking. Hell I have that here or I could just go to Sainte Pierre Miquelan if I wanted to be closer to home. The weather would be warmer than Manitoba.

(Sainte Pierre et Miquelan - those two petite islands between cape breton and terre-neuve is a French possession. In fact it is politically a district of Paris.)

3. I'm a Quebec'r and not a Manitoba-ite. I want Maple Syrop and Jeane Baptiste.

(Once a year I always am home for that day. Because I get drunk, smash beer bottles, get into a fight with some girl for her boyfriend, go topless dancing around a bonfire and wake up next to some really big guy. I don't think Manitoba thinks this is a sacred day.)

[rickholio]

Originally Posted by TTiger

this separatism vs federalism suck!
we just need harper as canada prime minister and mario dumont as quebec PM
, jeff fillion a quebec city mayor stephane gendron as montreal mayon and ill be happy

Oh yeah, Harper as PM. That'd be great. What was it that happened the last time the conservatives got in power?

Ah, right. I remember. NAFTA and the GST.

The libs may be a bunch of greedy ass bagmen, but even with all that there's been... what, 9 balanced budgets in a row, a consistant stream of above average economic performance with canada being #1 in growth in the G8 for many of those years, our bond rating being restored, our deficits being nibbled away at, etc. What've the conservatives done for canada aside from have their last PM indicted for fraud, taxing books and fucking us out of our oil to gain the favour of some washed up former actor with alzheimers?

[RawAlex]

The only good news? It looks like all this political indecision is putting pressure on the canadian dollar... look for it to tumble down to about 75 cents or so.

Alex