Amputate Your Head

Not really.

UnseenWorld

But, uh, we didn't know until later. WHAT made you assume otherwise?

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

She's just 18. What she didn't know (yet, in her naivetee) is what I've now started to tell her: There are a lot of foul people in this business who wouldn't hesitate an instant to screw her over.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

Originally posted by CDSmith:
These women are the absolute backbone of the industry. Without them, with no gorgeous women that are willing to do the things that men everywhere want to see (and women), there would BE no adult industry, period. In light of that fact, these women need and deserve to be treated with some respect.
[/QUOTE]

I think this is it in a nutshell. What I find so distressing about this discussion is that, apparently, many of you guys are in this business to hang around ho's. You're in the business of putting up sites that display ho's. And ho's deserve no consideration. Well, let me tell you, most of the girls I work with aren't ho's, they are exhibitionists. And you're pretty unsophisticated and sexually naive if you don't understand the distinction.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

Well, isn't it nice to second-guess an 18 year old? When I work with a young girl who's just starting out, unlike these guys, I assume a caretaker and guidance role; I don't think it's an excuse to either screw her over or let her be screwed over.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

But, you are missing the point that SHE ALSO DID A JOB SHE WAS NOT PAID FOR, AND WITHOUT BEING TOLD! GET IT?


------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

Once again: 18 year old girl. Used to being deferential to adults most of her life.

Also once again, I didn't hear about the weird situation until she told me about it. And the actual truth came from a third party even later. What? Do you think I would have sent her into that situation. I'm insulted you can even consider the notion.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

And another reason why I never respond to your attempts to get me to join your incredibly stupid "family," which seems to require someone to have an IQ of 92 to join it.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

run

unseen these guys are fucked up i admit that but you are fucked up even more than that.

First you bring a young naive little girl into the porn bussiness and then you pretend to be some kind of damn caretaker.

porn bussiness is about porn and being fucked in the ass most of the times. Thats what she has aparently got this time: a good fuck in the ass.

naive kid? What do naive kids do in front of the camera with their pussy wide open? Let her go sell hamburgers or something.

By no ways i support these assholes who took advantage of this situation, but its 90% her own fault.

cyberpunk

This is not true... 90% of the poeple in this biz... don;t fuck you.. they work a business like everyone else. its jsut that the 10% of the assholes in the biz give the rest of us a bad fuckin name



------------------
got EVIL?.... get EVIL! Make $$ from traffic you didn't even know you had

shunga

The girl is responsible for her actions, even though she's young and inexperienced, but the older, more experienced guys aren't..?

run

she was NOT forced to do anything.

she could have walked away.

If she is experienced enough to fuck around in front of the camera she is definately experienced enough to get up and walk the fuck away if she did not like it.

These guys are responsible for what they did and maybe its illegal or something. They are scum and they make me sick, just dont be telling me there was nothing that "poor child" could do about it.

run

cyberpunk i dont defend these idiots.
However im getting sick of bullshit like "oh what a poor inexperienced child, how could they to it to her..."

Porn brings good cash. You want a cut from that cash be ready to defend your positions. Other wise what is she doing here?

she likes the money but she does not like the trouble it brings, oh what a shock!

Maybe some of you heroes would like to donate to that girl just to compensate the psychological trauma she was forced to experience?

AaronM

Some people just don't get it. Where has ANYBODY said ANYTHING about "poor little girl?" I'll tell you where... only in the replies like the last one. I do not feel sorry for her at all. She learned a lesson and life will go on.

This tread is about snakes in the business and the shoot in question was used as an example. I guess it hit a nerve with a few of the snakes on this board. Deal with it.

------------------
Aaron Matthews Productions

aaron-matthews.com

Amputate Your Head

Well, this sounds alot like "Help me, help me... fix my broken wing" to me.
If that ain't cryin' about the "poor little girl" then I guess I don't know what cryin' is. Yet, even more of it:

Amputate Your Head

Well, ya know what? When I was 18, the world was bitch slappin' me in the fucking face. Time to grow up people. You ain't suckin' on mama's tit no more. If you can't handle playing in the adult world (and I do not mean the adult industry, I mean the adult WORLD), then you should probably go back to mom & dad's house for a few more years and figure it out. Boo... fucking... hoo. Life is a fuckin' bitch. Adapt or be used your entire life.

shunga

As far as I'm concerned, this thread was started about the "snakes" who took advantage of a situation, but somehow it was turned around to target the girl. You can read whatever you like into that.

Amputate Your Head

Well that's the easy one. If the guy is a shit, post his name and business for all to see, thus providing fair warning, and don't do business with him.

But that's not the case... is it.

Kimmykim

Don't overestimate here.

AaronM

AMEN!

You and Kimmykim took the words right out of my mouth.

Well I am done posting for a few hours. I will check back and see what other shit has been stirred up after I get settled into my hotel room. See you in Vegas Kimmykim.

CDSmith

Since this conversation seems to be going onandonandonandonandonandon... yet going nowhere, I'll add in a bit of insight about newly recruited models.

Most of the girls that indicate to me they are interested have never had any previous experience. They truly are young and naive in this regard. As for the girls that have done modelling before, most of them have worked in the mainstream industry and they too have no experience with adult work. All of the girls have pre-conceived notions about the internet and about how their pictures might be used.

Therefore it is up to me, the photographer to hold their hand and keep their best interests at heart, and actually teach them about how things really do work on the net.

I believe that it's up to us to also keep an eye out for potential dishonest sharks as well. Case in point: One of my sites is a modelling database, so this site offers the girls an extra opportunity to be promoted online and make some extra money. BUT, when an offer comes to me for one of the girls (happens from time to time), I in effect become their agent, so it is up to me to determine whether the work is right for them, and whether or not the person asking is honest and on the up-and-up.

Saying these girls are "18 and defiant of adults" or whatever is imaterial in this situation. I could say my banker is a bad father so why should I pay my mortgage? Duh. The girls need to be looked after, at least in the beginning, until they get a sense of what this big ol' game is about.

I too would be outraged if one of my models had a bad experience from someone I had referred her to, and I'd certainly never do business with them again. If the infraction was bad enough I would consider further action against them as well. (read into that what you will)

The most important elements of this end of the business are honesty, integrity, professionalism, and some caring would be nice to see in there as well. Yes, the girls love to get paid the nice money, but they shouldn't be subject to being taken advantage of just because this is the adult industry. No wonder so many new people have such wild misconceptions about what it is we do, because sometimes they aren't misconceptions at all.
<font face="Verdana">___________
CD
* <a href="http://www.sunsetbeachbabes.com/" TARGET="_blank"><font color="#FFFFDD"> Sunset Beach Party</font></a> Centerfolds ~ Amateurs ~ Teens, <a href="http://www.sunsetbeachbabes.com/webmasters.html" TARGET="_blank">new trades</a> welcome.
* <a href="http://clickthrutraffic.com/scripts/signup.php?referer=cdsmith" TARGET="_blank"><font color="#FFDDFF"> Click-thrutraffic.com</font></a> 5 cents up to 20 cents per click!
* <a href="http://www.erasercash.com/wm.html?ID=1380291" TARGET="_blank"><font face="Verdana" color="#FFCCCC">ERASERCASH!</font></a> Earn $35 per sale + webmaster referrals 4 LEVELS DEEP</font>

On-top

Well said AMP :-)

I despise snakes as people, I hate to see users win, and I'm against many shady business practices...but that doesn't mean that they go away. Naivete is not a survival skill. I'm aware of only two cures for these instances, knowledge and experience.

Unseen, I'm happy that you take inexperienced people under your wing to teach and prepare. I try to do what parents neglect to do as well in other business situations. But that is not the norm, and I'm surprised by anyone who thinks it is. Would the world be a better place if it was the norm?...I hope so. But nontheless, there will always be the ladder of success, the food chain from one end to the other. And even if one species is irradicated, something else moves into take it's place.

'Tis the story of the world.

Snakes have existed for over 100 million years, and I'm not expecing their demise anytime soon.

pornJester

hmmm...

AaronM

OK, the plane has safely landed and I have caught up on the replies. Not so much negative shit anymore. The one thing I would like to point out is the referred the girl to Unseen but he DID NOT refer her to the "snakes" She found the ad on her own.

CDSmith, you are absolutely right with every word you type. Unseen and I both follow the same guidelines you mention but the girls sometimes have to find out the hard way. It sucks but it is reality.

pornJester

I somewhat agree but I bet a bunch of guys (especially pervs) can be intimidating to a young girl. At least she should learn from this experience and she'll know better next time.



------------------
<A HREF="http://www.webmastervault.com" TARGET=_blank>

More info, more resources, more cheese in the bank.
</A>
We are looking for writers...
ICQ me: 91573698

Freeway

Live and Learn.

------------------
http://www.annies-sexsites.com

TheFLY

Intelligent people don't have an IQ complex either.

In any case this thread is pathetic -- it's a whole lot of "he said she said bullshit".

One model told me she was asked to give this scumbag photographer a blowjob before he would shoot her pics -- yeah -- and I called that guy -- his name is Dank -- we are having lunch on Tuesday -- the girl was ok with the blowjob but wasn't expecting a load of cum in her mouth -- the way she described it gave me a boner -- she kindof complained to me saying that more experienced girls may like the taste of cum -- but she's pretty shy -- I was really suprised -- but now I'm thinking -- damn that guy got a blowjob -- and I didn't get one... damn if I wasn't so nurturing... fuck.

(sarcasm off)

Hehe... I can't believe you guys are so worked up about this... watch these girls play innocent for you nice guys... I've met some really fucking "innocent" young girls -- they play the part beautifully -- they know how to sucker nice nurturing guys -- trust me I'm one of them -- you would be suprised now innocent they REALLY are... give me a break -- don't be a sucker. This thread is testament to male lameness.

These girls didn't grow up on "Leave it to Beaver"... They grew up on fucking Jerry Springer and Al Bundy.

------------------
<A HREF="http://www.thefly.net/topfly.html" TARGET=_blank>
</A>Oh Baby! TheFLY.net

AaronM

There is an exception to every rule. Once again you are responding without knowing the whole story and you are straying from the topic of the "Snakes" But, since you brought it up.... What if I told you that she grew up in a strict mormon houshold with 11 siblings? No boyfriends, no TV, no nothing. Leave it to beaver is hard core compared to how some people are raised. The girl in question is not your average model. Now, lets get back to the snake stuff.

I am currious what kind of horror stories are out there and how many of them are a actually true.

[This message has been edited by AaronM (edited 11-12-2001).]

UnseenWorld

Actually, our model became aware of this thread and wrote a lengthy reply without knowing (since she's new at this sort of stuff) that she needed to get a handle first, and then she was out of time to reenter her thoughts. However, I hope she'll get a handle and give it another try.

dank

Unseen-

No offense but you took the story of this girl and threw it to the wolves and now she's personally getting involved in the discussion?...........In my opinion....bad idea.

------------------
Dank
Photographer/future free site owner
Boneprone Family 4-LIFE

TheFLY

mormonporn.com -- you would be suprised how many performers you would get. Maybe I should register repressedpriestpenis.com too... how about shamefulcatholicgirls.com ?!

Anyway I hope we get to hear from the model soon! Now she can claim her fame!

Also I would like to know if she has ever seen a man naked.

------------------
<A HREF="http://www.thefly.net/topfly.html" TARGET=_blank>
</A>Oh Baby! TheFLY.net

UnseenWorld

Getting into the business was her choice, as she will be happy to tell you.

As long as there are teen sites, and as long as it's legal to shoot 18 and 19 year old girls, someone will do it. She would also tell you she could do a lot worse than working with me, based on her experiences so far.

So, at any rate, before you get any false allegations going. I was her first photographer, but I didn't "get her into the business." She has found my counsel useful and after this experience, I'm sure she has not only listened to my own advice but revised her own standards as to who to work with.

Anyway, I do pretty girl photography. I have steered her clear of the extreme end of the business, which I would do with a female of any age wanting to get into the business. Once a guy (or a dog or horse) gets into the frame, she's in a whole different ballpark, not that she would consider any of those options anyway.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

Here's Ethics 101 from a guy who's actually qualified to teach it (M.A. in philsophy): tricking someone into doing something by withholding essential information actually IS a way of forcing them to do it.



------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

Good, you've put us all on notice what your business ethics are like: every man for himself. The Law of the Jungle.



------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

Your sentiments are pretty much mine exactly. Yesterday, I had to tell her that despite her apprehensiveness about the photographers in the business (by which I mean the real photographers, not some bozo with a $150 digital shooting with built-in flash in a basement somewhere), we photographers are absolute seraphim by comparison with many (not all, of course) webmasters, who are often 10 times more perverted and 10 times less honest than the typical professional photographers.

There's a saying, "Character is what you have when the lights go out." In other words, applied to this situation, it says a lot about your character when you see a young beginner in what can be the roughest and riskiest part of this industry (the model/performer) whether you see her as someone you want to protect and guide or someone who merely represents a chump to be exploited.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

I have seen the pictures she did with them (she did video with them as well, as she has with me). Knowing her as I do, I can see the discomfort in her face. She was not totally sure of herself and was just getting through it. Yes, she saw it as a job and did what she needed to do to earn her pay (which I understand was also a bit less than she had been led to believe). She has learned from the situation and is being more careful, but some of the ethical midgets on this board almost see it as necessary for there to be piranha in the busines.

I've heard from Aaron that these guys are pretty much "newbie" webmasters, but I don't think ethics has anything to do with being a newbie or experienced. It's supposed to be an innate sense, and apparently some people learn it at home and some don't.

I'm willing to bet these guys didn't learn much about ethics at home, because their last insult was to ask her to get undressed again and pose (unpaid, mind you) with the site operator's father. She was smart enough to take a pass on that one.

How cheezy can you get?

They were not very sensitive, either. They openly talked to the other girl at the shoot about having her back again right in front of this girl. Now, I've seen both girls and I can tell you that this was NOT because the other girl was prettier. She is certainly one of the most appealing and pretty girls I've ever worked with. I suspect the other girl seemed a bit more pliable about doing harder stuff next time. At any rate, this should have been done out of earshot of this girl. It's all a matter of being nice to people.

Now I'm waiting for the guy to pipe up, "This is the porn business. We are outlaws. We aren't nice to people," but there, I said it for you, so stuff it.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

You're talking about a gal whose only mistake was being inexperienced. Believe me, she can hold her own with any of the mudpuppies so bravely flaunting their lack of ethical compasses here.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

toasty666

being the model in question...a few words.
(a)-i'm not mormon, although my father is a preacher
(b)-i am the oldest of 6 (11?!)
(c)-i've never watched TV, i hate it
(d)-there actually is a boyfriend, one of two years (though i know this in part defeats the image of innocence, i apologize, for those attempting to save face for me.

With the above conjectures having been expressed, please understand the fact that the facts, as Unseen and Aaron (for the most part) presented them, are generally correct. I am not a disillusioned, cunning, evil little bitch (as would follow from the 'blow job' analogy), nor am i a 'poor little girl' who failed to stand up for herself, and as a result suffered 'immense psychological trauma.' I rather articulated my discomfort at this job in particular to my photographer, and he mentioned that they were being paid for the additional 'spectators' present. Sue? For christ's sake, no...I'm far too logical and mild-tempered, not to mention; I was there, I made the choice to go through with the shoot, and I got paid for it. I shall now simply be more cautious, in the future, when booking photographers/etc. to work with. As to the atmosphere in which the scenes were shot...the other girl was very comfortable with a large audience, whereas I had never worked in front of more than one person before (in addition, it was my first video-much less the first time I'd done anything with a girl in my entire life). NO, I'm not complaining-just stipulating that I know for a fact, having worked with an 'established' company the next weekend, that the people being referred to as 'snakes' could certainly have conducted the shoot in a far more professional manner. Perhaps I should have committed to making this statement sooner, as so many liberties have been excercised in the definition of my [to many of you, hypothetical] situation.
~'The Model'

UnseenWorld

And one more thing: That story about you requiring a blow job for the girl to get work...is that true?

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

UnseenWorld

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the innocence being referred to by most here was your personal sexual innocence, but rather your unfamiliarity with the type of "people" (and I use that word with severe reservations) one might encounter in this biz.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World

Amputate Your Head

Okay... so if "the Model" is cool with all of it and admittedly, knew what was going on, stayed anyway, AND got paid.... what exactly is the issue here?

tenletters

Amp... buddy... Why are you so bent out of shape about this?

Amputate Your Head

I'm really not... just confused. Unseen & Aaron have gone to great lengths to make some kind of a point here, but after all this, I fail to see it.

toasty666

perhaps the point was merely to deduce varying reactions in such a situation...
basically, a reactionary experiement based upon an actual occurrence. and i'd say your responses can't have disappointed one with a preconceived notion of the fashion in which women are treated in this business..
furthermore..based upon all of your knowledge about this incident, and now knowing how the model felt about it (or even purportedly felt, for i'm sure there are some girls out there that actually do feel as victimized as i was portrayed to be), perhaps you can empathize a bit more with it should you be placed in a situation to aid a girl, rather than telling her 'life's a bitch, deal with it, you're a ho for being in the biz anyway.' though from what's been further stipulated on the board, it doesn't seem as if most of you deal with the models in the first place...
i commend aaron and unseen for upholding a form of absolute, albeit the industry being discussed, ethics-that there is indeed some type of standard by which we all deserve to be treated, no matter which side of the camera we're on. maybe that's the point...
and the sad thing is, it looks like a precious few actually got it.

TheFLY

Amen!

Welcome to the board! Thanks for clearing up all the confusion... Now we can rest easy knowing that you weren't an exploited virgin.



------------------
<A HREF="http://www.thefly.net/topfly.html" TARGET=_blank>
</A>Oh Baby! TheFLY.net

Amputate Your Head

Nice.

Well...

So... this was supposed to be some kinda fucking class we're attending here? Or are we now lab rats? If I want to be lectured on Unseen's moral and ethical views, I'll buy a six-pack and go curl up with him in a blanket by the fire.

I was lead to believe that there was sort of actual issue going on with you and the photographer, which in fact, turned out to be not quite the case. Hence,... I have deduced that this entire thread has been a complete and utter waste of my extremely valuable time and energy.

Have a nice day.

TheFLY

GFY needs your brain...

In any case... GFY is full of sarcasm, tasteless humor, and subversive tactics... Drama is paramount... and reality is only acknowledged by the newbies that haven't figured out the system yet... so throw that into your equation.

Amen!




------------------
<A HREF="http://www.thefly.net/topfly.html" TARGET=_blank>
</A>Oh Baby! TheFLY.net

AaronM

Hey Toasty666... Thanks for posting. I am cracking up reading your posts. Not because I do not take it seriously but because I think it is wonderful that the girl that a lot a people think was stupid has posted messages that run mental circles around those who have suggested that you were not very intelligent. High 5 for you.

TheFLY

No... it's not true.

I was being sarcastic... and Dank is an easy target... I guess you missed the Dank BJ thread... There was a model that wanted to be "exploited" by Dank... She was a fan of one of Boneprone's sites...

UnseenWorld

I hesitate to speak for her because she has weighed in. You are misreading her if you think she was "cool" with it, because, as she puts it, she learned a lesson from the whole thing about professionalism.

------------------
Check out the new content at Wonders of the Unseen World