That still doesnt change the fact that affiliates who blindly put faith in a program not shaving because they are using NATs are making a bad business choice.

An affiliate program using NATs IS still able to shave.

A false sense of security is no better than having no security at all :2 cents:

Regards,

Lee

But remember although its easy enough to switch sign up pages and tours, any sponsor can do this. This isnt something only for Nats.

The advantage Nats has over others, I believe is that the system itself doesnt shave, where as other systems may also have the sponsor switching sign up pages and also shaving with their billing system. So nats has just cut one of those routes

With NATS you would need to:

1) Use a non-NATS join page.
2) Use a non-NATS biller.
3) Not cascade through NATS.

Its not "just change the signup page". Thats simply wrong.

Doing any of the 3 above is OBVIOUS to any surfer since the pages will suddenly change. Thus this is not a really good shave, we WILL detect you doing it and it WILL cause you more problems than it gains.

Good stuff :glugglug

There you have it folks.. how a sponsor program CAN shave your sales even if they do use NATs :glugglug

Regards,

Lee

We have NEVER EVER claimed that an affiliate program that uses NATS can not shave at all. All we said is that NATS does NOT SHAVE.

You have to stop constantly stating things that we have no problem with. The only thing we claim is that NATS itself does not shave, instead, it makes it VERY VERY VERY HARD for ANYONE to shave if they use NATS.

Thats right. Infact this question often comes up, and the answer should be the same.

Regardless of whether a sponsor who shaves or not, you should be sending traffic to the sponsor who makes you the most money.

If sponsor "A" you send 1000 clicks you get 10 sign ups = $299 but they shave 10% so you actually get paid $269 is still better than sponsor "B" you send 1000 clicks you get 5 sign ups = $ 149 they dont shave at all, but you still only get $149

are you happier with the shaving sponsor who gives you $269 or the non shaving sponsor who gives you $149?

No it doesnt.

All a sponsor has to do is change a join page.. i would hardly call that very hard to do.

Regards,

Lee

I don't think he was actually busting your balls so much as the adult community at large. Peopie seem to think that is a program uses NATS, it means the sun shines out of their arse. There seems to be this belief that if they're using your software, they're not fucking webmasters in any way, or that it's even possible. I don't know of any program using NATS that is doing anything like that, but if someone is determined to shave, they'll do it regardless of the software they're using.

But like you said, it's working around NATS, and not something being offered by you guys. Any affiliate software is vulnerable. I don't think Lee should have targetted you guys with this post though.

Yep, awesome. Now affilates can check in in under 10 seconds if anyone using NATS is fucking with it.

Definately good stuff.

Happy that we now agree that its not easy to shave sales if you use NATS, instead it involves 3 very extreme and easy to see measures.

no its not, anyone can change the tour to point at another domain in seconds, using nats or not

Crap, surfers dont give a shit about nats, they either want to join up and wank or not. The page wouldnt suddenly change, you could have the tour just pointing to another sign up page

The only way of anyone finding out is if, a webmaster followed the trial of his links and was lucky enough to do it on the time a sponsor switched pages

LOL. You call changing a join page by getting yet ANOTHER biller (which are already hard to even find right now) which you do NOT use in NATS (and you would make more money if you would use it in NATS) and using just them for the sale (which makes you lose even more money) easy?

It might be easy in terms of "you only have to change a link", but its hard in terms of actually deceiding where to link to without NATS either just still tracking the sale, or you not losing a boatload of money in the end.

If they had said that at the start of this thread instead of jumping to the defense of their product perhaps we wouldnt hav hit 4 pages :helpme

Regards,

Lee

Please explain to me to what join page you would link to instead?

The third biller you found somehow which out of some weird reason you do not put in NATS to make more money with your traffic?

Can't you guys be more exact than just "use another join page"? That could mean anything, and depending on what you mean we would still track the sale.

Very easy, open up another account with ccbill for example, they allow more than one site/account to point to the same members area, use the same password file etc.

You could switch between accounts in 2 seconds flat

You think we should not defend our product?

And its 5 pages ;)

read above

One that wasnt 'public' until a certain time of day.

Then, after the busiest traffic time has ended.. it goes back to the 'generic' join page.

It really isnt rocket science, owning a software product such as NATs you really should already know this information.

Regards,

Lee

I think you thought this was a personal attack from european lee on nats. I dont think it was. He was just pointing out something that was very simple.

Just for the record, I think nats is a great system, Im just playing devils advocate :)

Not when your product wasnt the issue.

You are correct, it is 5 pages, my bad.

Sponsors can still shave if they use NATs though and that is the issue at hand :glugglug

Even though it seems you are trying to backtrack your multiple statements admitting this using a range of technical issues.

Regards,

Lee

infact you could do it in many ways, even just doing it once in a while when you feel like it.

The only way anyone would notice is as i said above, a webmaster following the trail and being lucky enough to have done it at the right time

You could switch to a standard CCBill join page in 2 seconds flat, yes. Again, making it rather obvious that weird stuff is going on.

And have to pay another visa registration fee for the new ccbill account.

And lose a bunch of reporting details in NATS.

Lose NATS members management.

Lose NATS retention features.

Have inconsistancy between NATS and your password file which is easy to check.

And more..

There simply is no GAIN in any of the suggestions you guys have made. You risk losing a lot more than you gain from it.

Like I said before, and I will say again, NATS makes sure that it knows everything that is going on, in order to maximize your profits as both an affiliate and a program owner. NATS has checks and balances to figure out what is going on and why.

That is all I keep saying. Just because it LOOKS like its simple to "just change the join page", that does not mean NATS lets you make it that simple.

Agreed.

The best time to do it though would be when the sites you want to shave on are getting the most traffic, specifically in the early hours of the morning when the sponsor programs largest base of affiliates [Americans] are sleeping.

Regards,

Lee

Will you please just stop with this crap? You want to actually discuss shaving here or not?

I am not backtracking, I am pointing out why it is not as easy as you think.

You could switch to a standard CCBill join page in 2 seconds flat, yes. Again, making it rather obvious that weird stuff is going on= Making it obvious to who?

And have to pay another visa registration fee for the new ccbill account. = If you cant afford the $750 you shouldnt have a pay site

And lose a bunch of reporting details in NATS.= so what? it would only be for a small amount

Lose NATS members management. .= so what? it would only be for a small amount

Have inconsistancy between NATS and your password file which is easy to check. = Do nats go checking all there customers password files on a regular basis then?

There simply is no GAIN in any of the suggestions you guys have made. You risk losing a lot more than you gain from it. = I 100% agree seems more trouble than its worth. i havnt seen anyone disagree with that.

Never said is was a good idea, just said it was possible and easy

Although in reality careful monitoring would ensure that if there is a difference it isn't that great, the answer for me is definately the $149.

I'm in this for the long haul and that means doing business with a company I can trust and who is ethical in business themselves. If someone is going to steal from me straight off the bat then I'd be insane to continue to work with them no matter what the payout. The chances of them screwing me in other ways becomes huge so I'll take the honest (as far as I know) company any day - and as I say in practice the earnings would not differ that much if you're promoting the right people.

Amazes me the amount of people in this industry who see nothing wrong with working with known or suspected thieves and scammers then bitch loudly when they get burnt.

Of course the reality is that knowing for sure any sponsor shaves is very tough so you end up giving the benefit of the doubt to them. All you can really go by is personal intuition and results which means that 99 times out of 100 (if you've any sense) you're using the one that makes you more anyway. This could well be the sponsor that shaves but often there is no way of knowing that for sure.

However if you 'know' then as above. You'd deserve to lose all your money if you know for sure a sponsor shaves and still use them.

But I and a couple of other people are pointing out why it IS as easy we say it yes but you arent listening. Instead you are continuing to provide details about how hard it is to aquire a secondary processing account at the processors, how hard it is to switch a join page etc etc.

FACT - Getting a 2nd processing account at ALL of the processors is the easiest thing in the world to do.

FACT - Swapping out a join page takes all of 3 seconds.

FACT - If a sponsor program is shaving their affiliates, im pretty sure they couldnt care less about affiliate stats for the shaved sales being displayed.

FACT - It is possible for a sponsor program to shave even when they are using NATs. Even John and Nathan agree.

Regards,

Lee

Got a simple question:

Do you think an program owner wants to RISK someone seeing something this obvious? Even if its unlikely to happen?

Or do you think a program owner would rather just shave in a way noone can notice it?

There is a simple different in our understanding of what we claim.

The one thing we all agree on I think is that NATS can not shave.

The thing we seem to keep missing eachother on is, that yes anyone can shave by adding obvious and detectable things to their paysite tours, BUT NATS makes it extra complicated to even do that AND that if anyone is found to DO that we WILL remove their license, they lose the one thing they can make money with.

I know, escpecially Lee does not want to comment on the above points simply because his goal with this thread would have then failed, but its still an important part of this discussion.

i dont bet

But i and a few others have commented on it.

NATs doesnt make it any harder to shave than a candy bar would.

If you find a sponsor that shaves you will revoke their license.. good stuff.. im sure they will go to one of the other 10 affiliate program systems and use that instead.

If you find a sponsor shaving you will take them to court? Looking forward to the day that happens.. youll set a much needed precedent in the industry although, in all honesty, i wouldnt think this would ever happen. Hopefully you will be able to prove me wrong on this point in the future though :)

If you guys had just said at the beginning of this thread..

'Yes it is possible to shave even if you use the NATs affiliate system' a lot of the posts in this thread wouldnt have even needed to have been made.

Regards,

Lee

Got a simple question:

Do you think an program owner wants to RISK someone seeing something this obvious? Even if its unlikely to happen? = No I dont think they would want to risk that

Or do you think a program owner would rather just shave in a way noone can notice it? = I think they would rather

There is a simple different in our understanding of what we claim.

The one thing we all agree on I think is that NATS can not shave. = agreed

The thing we seem to keep missing eachother on is, that yes anyone can shave by adding obvious and detectable things to their paysite tours, BUT NATS makes it extra complicated to even do that AND that if anyone is found to DO that we WILL remove their license, they lose the one thing they can make money with. = never disagreed at any point with that

I dont disagree with what you say Just pointing out the obvious and playing devils advocate

Obvious to anyone surfing the site. IF they are lucky enough as you claimed.

Yes, I agree, but like my calculation showed, at only $1 gain per sale by shaving, thats 750 sales you would need to shave before its worth it. And its VERY VERY likely that we will catch you after already 10 or 20.


Depends on how much you base on the reports and it depends how closely the program uses our members management. Most use it fully, which means that none of your non-NATS sales would even get access to the members area, which I think is kinda bad considering your resulting credit/chargeback ratio ;)


NATS itself currently does not, but depending on what is changed in NATS in the future, and what problems occure on a clients machine, we are most likely going to notice the discrepencies and start asking questions why all those new members are somehow not in NATS but are in the password file.

Ahh, thank you very much for the intelligent post :)

At least you admit that contrary to Mr. Lee.

that was my point really, you put it a bit better than me

Neither would I because as you say, a thief is a thief, they will find more ways of fucking you over

Yes, and they would be marked theives for their lives in this industry.


I doubt this will ever happen, but not because we do not notice it that people using NATS shave, but instead because we have made it so amaizingly un-worthwhile to even TRY it that noone WILL shave when using NATS.

That is our goal here. To bring integrity and trust back into this industry and do our very best to not let anyone shave while using our software.

Then we all agree.. and I noticed that you are playing devils advocate, and do not mind it at all.

These kinds of threads are actually welcomed by myself as long as people stick to the facts because sometimes people come up with ideas of what to do which we did not think of yet, which lets us add more protection against it in NATS.

I see no reason to continue this thread now.

Youhave admitted that its possible for sponsor programs to shave their affiliates even if they do use NATs and you even told your existing clients a list of ways they can shave when using your affiliate system.

Nothing more can be said, we are all in agreement that shaving is wrong and that its still possible to shave even when using NATs.

Regards,

Lee

if you really do want to shave webmasters, you will get a custom script you have more control over

look at the thread title - "even though we are using NATS"

Learn to read.. and quote a threads ACTUAL title ;)

Regards,

Lee

This was nothing we had to admit. We never claimed it was not possible. We said NATS does not do it and NATS works against it and NATS trys makes sure it is not done.

The bottom line is very simple: Noone buying NATS will try to shave, because it is not worth the trouble with all the meassures in place AND it is not needed with the powerful tools NATS provides to you.

The only thing I want from you Lee is that you admit that the likelyness that someone using NATS does shave, is VERY VERY slim simply because they will not be able to do it for a long time because we will detect it and will revoke their license.

This has been proven in multiple ways here in this thread, and everyone except for you who can only constantly repeat himself stating that "anyone can shave even if its nats" has admitted that we are doing a very good job at protecting our affiliates and making it not worthwhile for anyone of our clients to shave.

We are helping affiliates and program owners to trust eachother again with all the things we offer.

Lee, I read over this briefly. You seem to keep harping on the same point, you act totally unprofessional, and I have absolutely zero respect for you at this point. This is the last time in my life I will converse with you.

You said on page 5 all you wanted to hear was that it is not _impossible_ to shave with NATS. I said that in my 2nd post on page one, but you continued to ask it a few dozen times again anyway. You are reptative, apparently not very smart, and now seemingly here just to annoy myself and Fabian.

We have better things to do than argue on GFY about the same thing over and over and over again when we have answered your question and stated our views and standing.

Again, for the record...

The affiliate program owner can always do things to screw with the program. NATS has ever said or guaranteed anything to the contrary. NATS has built our system to not include a shave feature and to make it as hard as we know how to detect a program owner trying to play with the numbers. Should we detect a program trying to play with the numbers we will find out why. If it's to steal from an affiliate, their liscense will be revoked and they will find themselves with a lawsuit. We have built checks and balances in to keep an eye on shaving activities. If we sit here and tell you what they all are, that would simply make it that much easier to make sure the flags do not go off.

You obviously have some sort of problem with myself or my company as you see the need to constantly go in circles even though I said what you claim you wanted to hear on page one in my first detailed reply. I'm really getting the feeling you're nothing but a GFY troll in need of attention and a nobody in this business. Those who posted in this thread on your character seeem to feel the same way.

Again, this will be my last reply to you and my last conversation with you. Goodbye.