Libertine

They're scared, and a gun in your hand gives a feeling of power and thus a (false) sense of security.
I think that rationally, many of them understand that guns cause deaths (duh), but they don't want to give up their power because they're scared of the government, their neighbours, black people, muslims, etc.

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Dirty F

Plus it gives them the feeling of freedom, im allowed to have a gun so i have one.

psili

Guns Don't Kill, People do:

"?What makes gun control so compelling for many is the belief that violent crime is driven by the availability of guns, and more importantly, that criminal violence in general may be reduced by limiting access to firearms,? says Gary Mauser, author of the paper and professor of business at Simon Fraser University. "
-- (source)


Perhaps, by ratio per capita, America has more fucked up people than other countries. I'm willing to believe that as I see them every day driving to and from work.


Stats, stats and more stats: Those who claim the US is much, much worse than "some other" countries have your stats skewed. Basically, if you compare only firearm homicide and suicide data alone (and against a biased selection of other countries), the US will rank high. However, take into account TOTAL homicide and suicide rates, even against those selective countries and the US rates much better.

(source)

People are knocking themselves and others off regardless of gun availability. Don't kid yourself with this false argument in this thread.

I think the whole gun-control this, gun-control that argument is pointless. "...the risk of death in the US due to homicide, suicide and gun accidents is not significantly higher than in the rest of the world".

Ever see the movie Soylent Green? "It's people!". "It's people!". You're goddamn right it's people that's the issue.

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Dirty F

Are you fucked in your head for believing this? Wtf?

And the sky is green right?

Dirty F

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)

Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)

Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -

Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -

England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)

Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995) <0.01 (1997)

psili

Do you read the whole articles and my points or just continue to use the stats you wish to use to reaffirm the points YOU ARE trying to make?

You only took GUN RELATED stats. And yes, by those stats alone the US ranks high.

Take ALL homicide and suicide numbers and the US ranks much differently, and even lower than than those you listed. That's all I'm trying to say man.... it's not the guns, it's the FUCKING PEOPLE.

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Dirty F

Every hour in America, four people are killed by firearms. (Centers for Disease Control)

A gun in your home makes it three times more likely that you or someone you care about will be murdered by a family member or intimate partner (Kellerman,New England Journal of Medicine v329, n.15 1993)

Gun violence is the second-leading cause of injury-related fatalities in the US after car accidents. In Alaska, Maryland and Nevada as well as D.C., firearm death rates in 1998 exceeded those for car accidents. (CDC & Natnl. Vital Statistics Report, 1999)

One million Americans have died in firearm homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings since 1962. (Fatal Firearm Injuries in the United States 1962-1994. Violence Surveillance Summary Series, No. 3, 1997; Deaths: Final Data for 1995- 1997, National Vital Statistics Report)

Dirty F

Is this topic about suicide or guns? I thought guns, sorry if im wrong.

Quote:

That's all I'm trying to say man.... it's not the guns, it's the FUCKING PEOPLE.

Wrong guns kill. Without guns, no gun deaths. Hard to understand eh?

Dirty F

In 1998-99, states and territories expelled 3,523 students from bringing a firearm to school.

Dirty F

The Self-Defense Myth:

In 1997, for every time that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 43 people lost their lives in handgun homicides. (FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1997)

BV

I think that you understand that we don't care.

The US already saved your Ass once with our guns anyways!

psili

Let's go back to page 1 -- what were you trying to say here? From how I read it, you are saying it's not guns (or cocaine) but how the person uses it? I could be wrong in how I read your post, but doesn't that point the responsibility to the PERSON and not the implement that was used?

Now by your most recent arguments, you are saying that because there are a lot of gun-related deaths in the USA, guns are to blame and not the people?

All I'm trying to say, by looking at all the numbers that take into account total homicide and suicide deaths (not just those by guns), the numbers between some countries aren't that much different.

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psili

How about this: There's a lot of terrorist activity in the world and since terrorists are doing their actions in the name of Allah, it's the religion that's to blame.

Same argument. And similarly stupid.

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Dirty F

Ahahaha nigga please....if we go that way. We europeans build your country...sad reply to a sad statement.

Come up with something better man, dont go the idiot baddog way.

Dirty F

Ok, simple question:

Yes or no:

No guns, no gun deaths.

psili

Dude - I'm 100% on that.


Here's my question:

Yes or no:

No guns, no murder.

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Dirty F

No ofcourse not. Did i ever claim something else.

Next:

No guns, less murder

Yes or no.

psili

If you mean that guns were never invented? I'd still say "No". The numbers would still indicate homicide rates by sword, knife, poison, etc. and be pretty much equal between countries.

If you mean suddenly all guns dissappeard: Then, "Yes". It would be harder to kill, so less would do it.

If you mean a country implementing new gun control laws / taking guns back from the public: "No". By stats, such actions by countries do not limit the number of gun deaths and homicide rates stay the same or continue to rise.

By my opinion (and yes, much of it is opinion regardless of stats), that's 2 "no's" and 1 "yes".

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psili

If we're in fantasy land and strictly arguing that guns can kill -- Yes they can. And without guns, murder by that object would be impossible.

But come'on. This isn't candy land and I don't get to slide down the licorice ladder.

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Wolfy

psili, that was a good article you posted. i got your back on this one .



BV

Kevsh

For anyone that stll believes in his/her delusional, fantasy world that you still need a gun to protect yourself ... Simple, multiple-point question for you, sheriff:

How about a home security system instead?

Your response:
A) "Yea well, I can't afford one"
-> Then don't worry about being robbed, you don't own anything worth stealing anyway.

B) "They don't work"
-> Have you tried one? If for nothing else, the sticker on all your windows will at the very least make the robber(s) think there's gotta be an easier place to rob than yours.

C) "I can afford it, but they are too expensive"
-> How much do all your guns costs? Your 75" plasma TV? Your ATV? Your trip to Mardi Gras ... If defending your home is less important than these luxuries, then it's your priorities that first need to get straightened out.

D) "F - that, someone comes into my house I'm gonna smoke their ass."
-> Fair enough, at least your honest. But as someone pointed out here stats show clearly that the gun you worship is far more likely to end up shooting someone else than any robber. Your kid, your neighbour, your wife, your dog ... maybe even you.


So, anyone please explain, what is the argument for why you absolutely *need* to have a gun in your home?

Dirty F

Because every american is raised with the idea he lives in the most free country of the world so you have to totally exploit that freedom. Theyre free to own a gun so they use that freedom.

At least, thats the only good reason i can come up with.

Libertine

Your article is lumping in suicide with homicide, and basing its conclusions on the combined numbers. However, it is self-evident that there is no good reason to do so.

When looking only at homicide rates, the US scores significantly worse than any other western country (including Japan), even according to your little article.
Now, what the pro-gun people are saying is that without guns, people would just kill in other ways. Is this the case?
In western countries where guns are banned, non-firearm homicides are on a similar level as in the US. In the US, however, firearm homicides are WAY higher than in those countries. This sure does seem to suggest that more guns = more homicides.


Now, one could also look at your argument that "by ratio per capita, America has more fucked up people than other countries". If this is the case, should those fucked up people have guns? What purpose does that serve except for fighting overpopulation?

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Shoehorn!

I am not disputing the fact that the more guns are in a society the more gun related incidents are going to be occur. But, as mentioned before, legal gun owners are not the ones committing the crimes, it the thieves and other delinquents who would have committed the crime anyways. I think if you want to really have a valid argument, you need to find some numbers on the amount of registered guns that were used to commit a crime versus the amount of stolen or illegaly obtained guns used to commit a crime. I think then your argument might not have as much clout.

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Shoehorn!

Again, as stated numerous times before in this thread, there are plenty of people who own guns and use them for other things than self defense, such as hunting or sport shooting. They have shotguns on cruise ships, do you think thats incase someone gets rowdy and needs to be shot with a shotgun? Of course not, its because once you get out to sea you can go skeet shooting off the side of the ship. The people who own rifles and handguns and keep them locked in a safe in the basement of their house, do they do that incase someone breaks in, they can run down 2 or 3 stories to the basement, unlock the gun case, run back upstairs, adn defend their home? No, they have them so that on the weekends or during hunting season they can go out and target shoot, or go hunting. And by the way, its been proven that hunting is good for the animal population, which is why they allow it in the first place.

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