CCbill - Next Processor to go under. - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Jason · 02-18-2004, 05:22 PM

I see other processors going before CC.

They are too conservative.

Think about the majoirity of their business.

Mostly the mom and pop amateur sites @ $19.95 a month.

I can't do half the things I can do elsewhere.

I say all this and I don't even process any transactions with them!

TonyL · 02-18-2004, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
did they pay you to post that?

I've billed over 4 million dollars through CCBILL they have already paid me.

-Tony

Hooper · 02-18-2004, 05:22 PM

i'm very happy for you. i'm sure you're account will be active tomorrow.

triumph · 02-18-2004, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lightspeed
I hope you are wrong this time Hooper.

I've had a very close relationship to CCbill for nearly 5 years now, as we push nearly all our processing though them. I haven't seen or heard anything that would make me believe they are next on the chopping block.

Five years of CCbill's solid support and not one missed payment has earned my trust.

Steve Lightspeed

I agree with you Steve, they have paid on time for 4 years now, and they are solid in my opinion.

If ccbill goes down, then 3rd party billers will all be extinct.

Rictor · 02-18-2004, 05:28 PM

If I were to put money on it, I'd wager CCBill to outlast Ibill.

TheDoc · 02-18-2004, 05:29 PM

If CCbill goes down, then all 3rd party billers will be out of business.

CCbill has WAY less CB problem clients than Epoch does.

Only way CCbill is going down is if they close the doors or sell out.

TheDoc · 02-18-2004, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rictor
If I were to put money on it, I'd wager CCBill to outlast Ibill.

Ibill is still in because because they have money to pay the fines. They are riding a fine line and have been for over a year.

Ray@TastyDollars · 02-18-2004, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rictor
If I were to put money on it, I'd wager CCBill to outlast Ibill.

I wouldnt bet on that

TonyL · 02-18-2004, 05:31 PM

I think if ANY of the major 3 processors Ibill, Epoch or CCBILL go down they will all go down one right after another. It's my belief that visa/mastercard will eventually bring an end to consumer fraud and the easy chargeback before anything major goes down.

Bottom line. Eventually there will be a chargeback solution that works and we won't have to worry if our processing will be there tomorrow.

-Tony

TheDoc · 02-18-2004, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ray

I wouldnt bet on that

Lets count how many Ibill fines VS how many CCbill fines.

HUGE ass difference seeming Ibill passes fines down like kids buy candy in stores.

sextoyking · 02-18-2004, 05:34 PM

Doc,

True most likely on the fines for Ibill, but are we comparing companies with the same #'s? Doesn't ibill process alot more volume?

On this case I think Hoop is wrong, ccbill from what I hear is doing great and will be around for quite some time.

peace

Todd

TheDoc · 02-18-2004, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sextoyking
Doc,

True most likely on the fines for Ibill, but are we comparing companies with the same #'s? Doesn't ibill process alot more volume?

On this case I think Hoop is wrong, ccbill from what I hear is doing great and will be around for quite some time.

peace

Todd

2 years + ago, Ibill processed more sign-ups than epoch and ccbill together.

These days, Ibill is the smallest of 3 processors.

Kimmykim · 02-18-2004, 05:41 PM

I'd be surprised to see any of the IPSPs that are left go under, and if there were to be one, CCBill would not be my guess.

They do err on the side of caution, always have and their business model is different from Paycom, Ibill or Jettis.

I am amazed that anyone there would threaten to hold your money because of your posts, that's not the way I've ever seen them do things...

sextoyking · 02-18-2004, 05:42 PM

Doc,

I see.

Hopefully with vbv and other new programs coming out chargebacks will decline for paysite owners.

HarlotCash Dyker · 02-18-2004, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TonyL
I think if ANY of the major 3 processors Ibill, Epoch or CCBILL go down they will all go down one right after another. It's my belief that visa/mastercard will eventually bring an end to consumer fraud and the easy chargeback before anything major goes down.

Bottom line. Eventually there will be a chargeback solution that works and we won't have to worry if our processing will be there tomorrow.

-Tony

Agreed -

Steve Lightspeed would be the one person to know if ccbill were rocky as he is most probably their number 1 customer - He has complete faith in them.

I have been with ccbill longer than Steve - And never had a single problem (Related to payment etc.). I too have complete faith in them.

Bradshaw - Ccbill techs rock - Know the guys doing the tech work and email them directly - Cutting out the support@ccbill means a far quicker response -

I hope you are wrong on this, Hooper - In fact, I am sure you are.

Fletch XXX · 02-18-2004, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
[B]i'm just telling you that we're pulling our processing from them.

no, you claimed they are the next to go under...

if you were just letting people know you were switching, shouldnt your thread title been "We are moving from ccbill?"

instead you used: CCbill - Next Processor to go under.

intention is clear.

OY · 02-18-2004, 05:46 PM

Hooper, you have always had my respect, and still have... (and always will, as long as you keep on inviting me to dinners and allow me to smack Wiseman on the back of his head from time to time...)

BUT coming from me as my personal point of view, I hightly doubt this will happen to CCBill any time soon. Or so I hope. Seriously. It would be the death of many things to come if it happened.

However, IF it were to happen, then my business model will again be proven right. And that is to spread your risk and use more than one processor.

NEVER LEAVE ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET!!!

mrthumbs · 02-18-2004, 05:53 PM

i find it funny how people feel about ibill..

last man standing. wait and see ;)

pornstar2pac · 02-18-2004, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
lol.. nothing having to do with spamming, we dont accept email traffic anymore anyways.

jmho stands for just my humble opinion.

if you choose to put your ears to the tracks and listen.. well thats your own decision.

hooper is always money. When he mentions Lakers in a story, I bet on the lakers. if he says it's gonna storm tonight, I got the winter jacket out. That's proof right there. s

hooper wouldn't waste 2 min. here with this thread i if theree wasn't something he knows.

BVF · 02-18-2004, 05:58 PM

Where's Corvette?

pornstar2pac · 02-18-2004, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rictor
If I were to put money on it, I'd wager CCBill to outlast Ibill.

would that be in Texas Hold em, or Omaha hi/lo

seven · 02-18-2004, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
jmho, but i was right in advance about pswbilling and websitebilling.

we'll see in a year i guess.

in the mean time we'll be taking all of our processing away from ccbill as a precaution.

yah okie.. next please!

BRISK · 02-18-2004, 06:05 PM

Joesho · 02-18-2004, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SL|M!

its cosa nostra...

that is La cosa nostra man....

seven · 02-18-2004, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BVF
Where's Corvette?

Just got off the phone.. seems Corvette has no idea about this thread yet but I'm sure his idea will be just as good as mine ie. Janet's desparately trying to just add some impressions to her sig i mean right boob

BigPinPin · 02-18-2004, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oystein
Hooper, you have always had my respect, and still have... (and always will, as long as you keep on inviting me to dinners and allow me to smack Wiseman on the back of his head from time to time...)

BUT coming from me as my personal point of view, I hightly doubt this will happen to CCBill any time soon. Or so I hope. Seriously. It would be the death of many things to come if it happened.

However, IF it were to happen, then my business model will again be proven right. And that is to spread your risk and use more than one processor.

NEVER LEAVE ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET!!!

sorry but your basket = too expensive

12clicks · 02-18-2004, 08:08 PM

Hoop, I love you but you're wrong and to start a thread like this is irresponsible.

Oh, and if *I* ran ccbill your account would have already disappeared.

Anna_O · 02-18-2004, 08:18 PM

If CCBill goes down it will be a huge blow to this industry. It will put many thousands out of biz...

Hooper · 02-18-2004, 08:26 PM

how is it irresponsible or wrong? i appreciate your input 12clicks, but the last time you processed a transaction was waht.. 4 years ago? how did that end up for you?

when did ccbill become the model of good behavior and conservatism?

ccbill is the same company that changed our join pages one day to say things like "hoopers momma is..." and accordingly disabling transactions for a full 24 hours.

same company who everybody forgets was the king of processing for "non nude teen sites" and beastiality..

same company who pretty much threatened that if i dont shut up that my rebills may be gone...

processors are supposed to be the bankers of our industry... they arent supposed to be doing lines of coke at 6am off of tables.... we've got the photos to prove it.

Isnt that why ccbill wears ties at conventions and pretend that they arent pornographers?

We left ccbill as a primary years ago because of this kind of behavior.... now we're dumping them from our portfolio altogether and i cant help but question their viability as a company.

who's join pages are they going to change next? is it yours? do they *like* you? have you kissed their ass enough?

i'll never trust my money with them again. they run their biz with emotions.... and thats bad biz..

bad biz can only lead to one place imho.

BradShaw · 02-18-2004, 08:29 PM

Someone did coke and did not invite me? FUCK!

diet or regular?

integrated · 02-18-2004, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
processors are supposed to be the bankers of our industry... they arent supposed to be doing lines of coke at 6am off of tables.... we've got the photos to prove it.

that sir is LIBEL

12clicks · 02-18-2004, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
how is it irresponsible or wrong? i appreciate your input 12clicks, but the last time you processed a transaction was waht.. 4 years ago? how did that end up for you?

its irresponsible or wrong because you make the statement:
CCbill - Next Processor to go under.
its not a question, its a statement. One you can't back up. That makes it irresponsible.

Not sure what my own processing has to do with you making irresponsible statements but when you're ready to sell, give me a call and I'll show you how my 4 year old processing ended up for me.

There's bad blood between you and CCbill and now that you're completely done with them your taking a parting shot. I get it, I just think it diminishes you.

Validus · 02-18-2004, 08:39 PM

I know some people at CCbill, like many of you do. I would really be surprised if CCBill would be the next billing company to shut down. I am 99% sure that that won?t happen within the next 12 months.

Hooper · 02-18-2004, 08:40 PM

not when it's true. cant you read?

if i'm lying then let them sue me. they have the info they need to send a c&d.

quiet · 02-18-2004, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper
but i get the distinct feeling that in the morning i might not have a ccbill account left at all, i was pretty much told that if i keep posting that i might not have any rebills left.

hmm

funkmaster · 02-18-2004, 08:42 PM

... there is hope, solar billing just opened it's gates and yambo is doing stronger than ever (once they unban your IP, you know ... speak to max).

SleazyDream · 02-18-2004, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hooper

processors are supposed to be the bankers of our industry... they arent supposed to be doing lines of coke at 6am off of tables.... we've got the photos to prove it.

Isnt that why ccbill wears ties at conventions and pretend that they arent pornographers?

...... they run their biz with emotions.... and thats bad biz..

I don't know much about their inside operations but I call question to these three points you made hooper.

First anyone who knows me knows i won't even take a drag off a joint - but a believe a person's recrational drug use at a porn convention has little to do with their business ability, and I know many people in this biz that do recretional drugs on occosion that do very well and I don't fault them for it. (hopefully they don't fault me for eating all their snacks while they snort up)... I'm not saying they do or don't use, I'm saying it's irelevant. I can guarentee you there are people at the other processing companies that do recrational drugs. As long as it isn't a daily thing it probally not a problem.

I've met many ccbill people at porn conventions and they don't pretend for a second they are in any business other then porn. I'm not sure where that came from? Some of their people are more liberal than me....

Personally I don't see anything wrong with running a biz with emotion. Compassion is an emotion , ccbill has often gone above and beyond in that regard. There are often people who I will or won't do business with based on a gut feeling. It's just raw emotion and I often trust it on major business decisions.

mahoney · 02-18-2004, 08:57 PM

I hope your wrong

SleazyDream · 02-18-2004, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BradShaw

Paradise Valley Porn Mafia sticks together! CCBILL has some smart guys over there, I expect them to be one of the last standing. But they should fire their tech support dept.

there ARE worse tech support teams out there...BELIEVE ME.

Donny · 02-18-2004, 09:07 PM

I have been using ccbill since my sites started. And sending traffic to ccbill affiliate programs before that. I've never had any (major) problems. A few minor, sometimes irritating, problems. But never anything to do much complaining about.

I also spoke recently with an owner who's sites do more than $3,000,000 a month in sales. I asked him, "If you could only choose one processor, who would it be?"

His reply, "CCBill, of course. If they go under, we all go under."

True, dat!

integrated · 02-18-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DonovanPhillips
I have been using ccbill since my sites started. And sending traffic to ccbill affiliate programs before that. I've never had any (major) problems. A few minor, sometimes irritating, problems. But never anything to do much complaining about.

I also spoke recently with an owner who's sites do more than $3,000,000 a month in sales. I asked him, "If you could only choose one processor, who would it be?"

His reply, "CCBill, of course. If they go under, we all go under."

True, dat!

hmm i think the maximum amount visa processors allow is 250k per month so you might have some miss guided information

SoundMan · 02-18-2004, 09:10 PM

Hooper has some inside info:

Verotel is next.. ccbill if they Loose.

Ibill - Epoch last ones standing...............

wait and see...............

Theo · 02-18-2004, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by funkmaster
... there is hope, solar billing just opened it's gates and yambo is doing stronger than ever (once they unban your IP, you know ... speak to max).

integrated · 02-18-2004, 09:12 PM

the big question is when will visa/master card go out of business?

adult industry is the biggest revenue streams for them so if they cut us off they will go down too

funkmaster · 02-18-2004, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SoundMan
Hooper has some inside info:
Verotel is next.. ccbill if they Loose.
Ibill - Epoch last ones standing...............
wait and see...............

... damn, wasn't that me that predicted that almost a year ago ... march04 is coming !!

angelsofporn · 02-18-2004, 09:16 PM

i know ccbill has the most stringent policies as far as allowing certain cross sells etc...i think someone else would go before them

Donny · 02-18-2004, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by integrated
hmm i think the maximum amount visa processors allow is 250k per month so you might have some miss guided information

you're dead wrong.

integrated · 02-18-2004, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DonovanPhillips

you're dead wrong.

could be but i dont think so

PR_Phil · 02-18-2004, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by integrated

hmm i think the maximum amount visa processors allow is 250k per month so you might have some miss guided information

....

oh wait!

integrated · 02-18-2004, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NWPhil

....

oh wait!

so i guess your the expert here?

right ?

02-18-2004, 05:22 PM	#51
Jason Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,287	I see other processors going before CC. They are too conservative. Think about the majoirity of their business. Mostly the mom and pop amateur sites @ $19.95 a month. I can't do half the things I can do elsewhere. I say all this and I don't even process any transactions with them! __________________ I stay busy.

02-18-2004, 05:22 PM	#53
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	i'm very happy for you. i'm sure you're account will be active tomorrow. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

02-18-2004, 05:29 PM	#56
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	If CCbill goes down, then all 3rd party billers will be out of business. CCbill has WAY less CB problem clients than Epoch does. Only way CCbill is going down is if they close the doors or sell out. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

02-18-2004, 05:34 PM	#61
sextoyking Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portland, OR. Posts: 6,034	Doc, True most likely on the fines for Ibill, but are we comparing companies with the same #'s? Doesn't ibill process alot more volume? On this case I think Hoop is wrong, ccbill from what I hear is doing great and will be around for quite some time. peace Todd __________________ ICQ: 52344098 -------------------------------------- 50% Commissions on all Product Sales. http://www.wishing.com/money

02-18-2004, 05:42 PM	#64
sextoyking Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portland, OR. Posts: 6,034	Doc, I see. Hopefully with vbv and other new programs coming out chargebacks will decline for paysite owners. __________________ ICQ: 52344098 -------------------------------------- 50% Commissions on all Product Sales. http://www.wishing.com/money

02-18-2004, 05:28 PM	#55
Rictor Old Timer Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 12,208	If I were to put money on it, I'd wager CCBill to outlast Ibill.

02-18-2004, 05:31 PM	#59
TonyL Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: "A measure of a man is his post count". Write that down. Posts: 900	I think if ANY of the major 3 processors Ibill, Epoch or CCBILL go down they will all go down one right after another. It's my belief that visa/mastercard will eventually bring an end to consumer fraud and the easy chargeback before anything major goes down. Bottom line. Eventually there will be a chargeback solution that works and we won't have to worry if our processing will be there tomorrow. -Tony

02-18-2004, 05:41 PM	#63
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	I'd be surprised to see any of the IPSPs that are left go under, and if there were to be one, CCBill would not be my guess. They do err on the side of caution, always have and their business model is different from Paycom, Ibill or Jettis. I am amazed that anyone there would threaten to hold your money because of your posts, that's not the way I've ever seen them do things...

02-18-2004, 05:46 PM	#67
OY Industry Pioneer Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA/EU/ASIA Posts: 5,401	Hooper, you have always had my respect, and still have... (and always will, as long as you keep on inviting me to dinners and allow me to smack Wiseman on the back of his head from time to time...) BUT coming from me as my personal point of view, I hightly doubt this will happen to CCBill any time soon. Or so I hope. Seriously. It would be the death of many things to come if it happened. However, IF it were to happen, then my business model will again be proven right. And that is to spread your risk and use more than one processor. NEVER LEAVE ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET!!! __________________ Around since 1997, and the company that introduced "Cascading Billing" in MPA3® Affiliate Management and Tracking Software Outsourcing With A Norwegian Twist - NordBits - Inquire within!

02-18-2004, 05:53 PM	#68
mrthumbs salad tossing sig guy Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: mrthumbs*gmail.com Posts: 11,702	i find it funny how people feel about ibill.. last man standing. wait and see ;)

02-18-2004, 05:58 PM	#70
BVF Black Vagina Finder Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Midwest Posts: 13,975	Where's Corvette? __________________ Black Pussy Click On Mr Cosby..CCbill, 60/40, 136 FHG's....The Cos Loves Black Ghetto Pussy!!

02-18-2004, 06:05 PM	#73
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	__________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

02-18-2004, 08:08 PM	#77
12clicks Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: God's right hand Posts: 19,790	Hoop, I love you but you're wrong and to start a thread like this is irresponsible. Oh, and if I ran ccbill your account would have already disappeared. __________________ I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

02-18-2004, 08:18 PM	#78
Anna_O Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 5,773	If CCBill goes down it will be a huge blow to this industry. It will put many thousands out of biz... __________________ Fetish by Anna Paysite - Nylons Bondage Latex Lesbians Glamour Annas Dungeon - 70k / day Fetish TGP ICQ 246797915

02-18-2004, 08:26 PM	#79
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	how is it irresponsible or wrong? i appreciate your input 12clicks, but the last time you processed a transaction was waht.. 4 years ago? how did that end up for you? when did ccbill become the model of good behavior and conservatism? ccbill is the same company that changed our join pages one day to say things like "hoopers momma is..." and accordingly disabling transactions for a full 24 hours. same company who everybody forgets was the king of processing for "non nude teen sites" and beastiality.. same company who pretty much threatened that if i dont shut up that my rebills may be gone... processors are supposed to be the bankers of our industry... they arent supposed to be doing lines of coke at 6am off of tables.... we've got the photos to prove it. Isnt that why ccbill wears ties at conventions and pretend that they arent pornographers? We left ccbill as a primary years ago because of this kind of behavior.... now we're dumping them from our portfolio altogether and i cant help but question their viability as a company. who's join pages are they going to change next? is it yours? do they like you? have you kissed their ass enough? i'll never trust my money with them again. they run their biz with emotions.... and thats bad biz.. bad biz can only lead to one place imho. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

02-18-2004, 08:29 PM	#80
BradShaw Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: KB's trailer Posts: 7,840	Someone did coke and did not invite me? FUCK! diet or regular? __________________ Sig too big http://www.gofuckyourself.com/gfy_faqs.html Want to use a large banner in your sig??? Contact Eric about getting on as an advertiser - eric AT adult.com

02-18-2004, 08:39 PM	#83
Validus Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 4,012	I know some people at CCbill, like many of you do. I would really be surprised if CCBill would be the next billing company to shut down. I am 99% sure that that won?t happen within the next 12 months.

02-18-2004, 08:40 PM	#84
Hooper Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A Free America Posts: 2,210	not when it's true. cant you read? if i'm lying then let them sue me. they have the info they need to send a c&d. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultplatinum.com/"><img src="http://www.adult.com/wmbanners/10dcash-468x60.gif"></a>

02-18-2004, 08:42 PM	#86
funkmaster So Fucking Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: shell beach Posts: 7,938	... there is hope, solar billing just opened it's gates and yambo is doing stronger than ever (once they unban your IP, you know ... speak to max).

02-18-2004, 08:57 PM	#88
mahoney Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Las Vegas Nv Posts: 5,318	I hope your wrong __________________ Vegassexparty.com

02-18-2004, 09:07 PM	#90
Donny As you wish... Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 13,754	I have been using ccbill since my sites started. And sending traffic to ccbill affiliate programs before that. I've never had any (major) problems. A few minor, sometimes irritating, problems. But never anything to do much complaining about. I also spoke recently with an owner who's sites do more than $3,000,000 a month in sales. I asked him, "If you could only choose one processor, who would it be?" His reply, "CCBill, of course. If they go under, we all go under." True, dat!

02-18-2004, 09:10 PM	#92
SoundMan So Fucking Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MidWest Posts: 3,471	Hooper has some inside info: Verotel is next.. ccbill if they Loose. Ibill - Epoch last ones standing............... wait and see...............

02-18-2004, 09:12 PM	#94
integrated Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: west end Posts: 3,826	the big question is when will visa/master card go out of business? adult industry is the biggest revenue streams for them so if they cut us off they will go down too __________________ Pioneer of .TV domains Grandfather of .TV development Respected among industry LEADERS

02-18-2004, 09:16 PM	#96
angelsofporn Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 3,218	i know ccbill has the most stringent policies as far as allowing certain cross sells etc...i think someone else would go before them