Proof of SHAVING??????? - Page 4 - GoFuckYourself.com

baddog · 08-30-2003, 05:41 PM

150 razors

Drake · 08-30-2003, 05:49 PM

Can somebody please start a new thread with the conclusions from this one?

I can't read through all of this.

xxxdesign-net · 08-30-2003, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Here's an idea, let's see if the sponsors can dump their reseller programs and make as much money as they do now.

My money says yes.

well, have you ever tried to promote a site without affiliates? Im doing it now... You start by being lised everywhere you can (TGPs)... (paid, free, etc..) You can do it another time at the same places.. and after the 3rd time.. you really see your sales dropping (saturation)

Then there's some banner placement on some big sites, exit traffic... You are then good for another month or 2... and thats it... Your site is then nearly dead... (saturation) Im guessing that saturation with Affiliates will come MUCH later... since they'll have tireless gallery submitters, aff. with free site with sometime SE traffic... and you even sometime even have people with mainstream sites promoting you..

I dont know how quiet is doing it, what is his other sources of traffic but if hes selling an ebook about it...im a buyer!

extreme · 08-30-2003, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NetRodent
100 whiney webmasters complaining about shaving.

Third party affiliate programs are NO PROTECTION against shaving. Consider the following two scenarios:

1). Your sponsor has two CCBill (or any third party system) accounts "A" and "B". The sponsor has an affiliate program on account "A". You send your clicks through CCBill's counter/cookie script using your affliate id from account "A". Your sponsor sends some of your traffic to account "A" and some to account "B". You get credit for only the signups on account "A". Anything that goes to account "B" you don't get credit for.

2). You send your clicks through CCBill's counter/cookie script, using your affiliate id. Then after your traffic hits your sponsor's site he redirects some of it back through the counter/cookie script under a different affiliate id before send it to his join page. You only get credited for all of your clicks but only some of your joins.

It took about two minutes to think up those two scenearios. There are probably several more, especially when you through multiple billing companies, payment methods, multiple sites, etc. into the mix. If a sponsor wants to shave you, you can't do anything to stop it. If you think third party is some magical solution you're an idiot.

The only way to limit your exposure to shaving is to shop your traffic around from one affiliate program to another until you find the one that pays you the most. Then continue shopping around
a portion of your traffic so you'll always know who will pay you the most at any given time.

mmm, shouldn't be to hard for a sponsor that uses CCBILL to cheat/shave, but on the other hand it would be easier to detect.

I guess an i-f-r-a-m-e on the tour with another ccbill affil code url would do the trick?

On the other hand its possible that CCBILL protects against this? (by not overwriting a cookie very recently set)

Anyone tested this?

And if its really detected, it would be black on white proof that this sponsor really shaves since the sponsor somehow needs to get another (read: his own) affilcode into that CCbill cookie before the surfer hits the CCBILL signup page.

muchmoreporn · 08-30-2003, 06:29 PM

the final concusion is this.. which ever sponsor makes you the most sales is best to stay with, dont listen to other ppl 1:15 ratios causes im sure sponsors can bullshit them stats on you as well, ive seen it done, if you feel your working too hard and not making enough than move on, if an sponsor is smart enough they wont shave much to keep you but than again if they got webmasters coming and going Im sure they cant give a fuck if you leave and shave the shit outta you.

only thing that ever bugged me is how this one person would mess my stats up large never a balance for me to work with so i never knew what to do to make my conversions better. but in the end i made mad sales with them and couldnt care less how much they shaved.

Kimmykim · 08-30-2003, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xxxdesign-net
well, have you ever tried to promote a site without affiliates? Im doing it now... You start by being lised everywhere you can (TGPs)... (paid, free, etc..) You can do it another time at the same places.. and after the 3rd time.. you really see your sales dropping (saturation)

I'm quite aware of how to do it right

muchmoreporn · 08-30-2003, 06:35 PM

lets just say i made an affiliate program that converted 1:5 and i paid out 30 bucks a sale, but i would shave you guys and you would only make 1:30, means i would shave you 5 sales and you make 1, would you care?

would you not be happy making 1:30?

point is im sure if a sponsor is converting very well they will take advantage to themselves, and payout what webmasters EXPECT to make.

Matt_WildCash · 08-30-2003, 06:38 PM

He sure isn't going to expose any of his sponsors cause they won't pay him so stop asking

cash69 · 08-30-2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by muchmoreporn
lets just say i made an affiliate program that converted 1:5 and i paid out 30 bucks a sale, but i would shave you guys and you would only make 1:30, means i would shave you 5 sales and you make 1, would you care?

would you not be happy making 1:30?

point is im sure if a sponsor is converting very well they will take advantage to themselves, and payout what webmasters EXPECT to make.

still not the point.. say you worked at a job for 30$ an hour.. you got there at 8 am and worked until 5 pm.. you went to get your paycheck and you only were paid from 8am till 2 pm.. would you still be happy with the 30$ an hour?

muchmoreporn · 08-30-2003, 06:41 PM

I go to a job and the boss makes 50-100 bucks an hour to have me doing some labour contrustion job and i make 12 bucks an hour, yeah ive been there done that.

12 bucks is all i expect to make.

Kimmykim · 08-30-2003, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cash69
still not the point.. say you worked at a job for 30$ an hour.. you got there at 8 am and worked until 5 pm.. you went to get your paycheck and you only were paid from 8am till 2 pm.. would you still be happy with the 30$ an hour?

Well now, if you were told you'd be paid 30/hr for a job that was really worth no more than 20/hr, you'd probably realize that something was not right wouldn't you?

Pornkings · 08-30-2003, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PornDollar

That is because you want to be known as Mr. Smooth.. ;)

LOL the way I see it.. no matter what we say they will think whatever they want.

Kimmykim · 08-30-2003, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

LOL the way I see it.. no matter what we say they will think whatever they want.

Damned if that doesn't sum it nicely.

muchmoreporn · 08-30-2003, 06:44 PM

how you compared this to a time base statement makes no sense.

xxxdesign-net · 08-30-2003, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

I'm quite aware of how to do it right

ah common, you need to share some tips.. dont be like that Quiet guy!!

whats the alternative sources of traffic? Not SE!? Even getting 5000 of daily SE hits might get you max. 5 sales... on a good day!

Jason · 08-30-2003, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

LOL the way I see it.. no matter what we say they will think whatever they want.

exactly.

Pornkings · 08-30-2003, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

Damned if that doesn't sum it nicely.

It's crazy how many times this topic comes up.

Thats why I always say get to know who you do biz with . Pic up the phone or meet everyone at the shows.

If someone has an affiliate program for webmasters they should also have the support.

We treat every webmaster the same in our program. big or small
they are all Pornkings...

Hell if you send me traffic and you think I'm shaving call me up anytime. And we can go over your traffic and stats and figure out whats wrong.

stevecore · 08-30-2003, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pornkings

It's crazy how many times this topic comes up.

Thats why I always say get to know who you do biz with . Pic up the phone or meet everyone at the shows.

If someone has an affiliate program for webmasters they should also have the support.

We treat every webmaster the same in our program. big or small
they are all Pornkings...

Hell if you send me traffic and you think I'm shaving call me up anytime. And we can go over your traffic and stats and figure out whats wrong.

Rog has always been helpful... I remember when I was looking over our exits and had built a custom on to promote PK... when it was not performing that great, Roger took the time to look over it and offer suggestions to help attract more customers. A simple line of text like "Join for $1" helped change things around on that particular exit.

Pornwolf · 08-30-2003, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Other Steve

That might be so now but there are some analysts who are suggesting that computer sales and the take-up of internet access in the US may have just about reached its peak.

While the same figures for places outside the US just continue to grow and grow.

Soo true. Everyone needs to ask themselves one thing...

Got rice bitch?

Pornkings · 08-30-2003, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevecore

Rog has always been helpful... I remember when I was looking over our exits and had built a custom on to promote PK... when it was not performing that great, Roger took the time to look over it and offer suggestions to help attract more customers. A simple line of text like "Join for $1" helped change things around on that particular exit.

Sometimes its as simple as that.

Put ($1 for a full month) and I bet it will do even better. LOL

Wording things a certain way helps alot depending on what type of traffic it is. etc

Why · 08-30-2003, 07:26 PM

i was having an interesting conversation with a fried of mine on the phone last night about this same topic, is it not illegal to tell someone you will pay them on EVERY join and not do it?

they cancel you for violating thier TOS so they dont have to pay you, but they dont even life up to it....

TIME FOR A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT! who should we go after first?

Why · 08-30-2003, 07:29 PM

i have been counting my hits out for a very long time, and its amazing how off some sponsors hit counting is

my solution....

divide how many hits you sent to them from your server, by the amount on the check.

whoever is giing you the most per click is worth sending more traffic to. whoever is sending you the least is either shaving harder or thier sites just dont convert.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 08-30-2003, 07:42 PM

And the thread goes on.
6 Miles and runnin.

Cindyff · 08-30-2003, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OneHungLo
He's right. I discovered this about 4 yrs ago with ARS...i used to have different accounts with them for different tgp's etc..and i began to notice a trend when ever i first signed up for a new account i was averaging 1:100 then after about 2 weeks it would be 1:600 so i would get a new account and it would be back to 1:100.

It was kinda funny to look back at all my accounts i had...the first one i signed up with was at 1:5000 the next 1:1200 the next 1:800 and all the way down the line to the newest one at 1:100

They all do it, they will all deny it, but they all do it. Anyone paying 40 dollars a signup is scamming someone , either it be the surfer or the webmaster... someone's getting fucked

This is exactly why we don't work with sponsors who pay per free trial or $35 per sign up, they have to shave to make money. We stick to sponsors with great rev share programs.

I would rather have 60% 0f a once only $160.00 sign up any day or even a $100.00, $ 60.00 or $25.00 as with Busty 2.com. Or one of the other revshare sponsors we promote.

So far we have never had any reason to suspect any sort of shaving with these guys.

Cindy xx

Resolute · 08-30-2003, 07:50 PM

Send you traffic to BOYBUCK$

the only thing we shave is . . . . .our boys !

You get paid directly by Ibill/CC Bill

Kimmykim · 08-30-2003, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cindyff
I would rather have 60% 0f a once only $160.00 sign up any day or even a $100.00, $ 60.00 or $25.00 as with Busty 2.com. Or one of the other revshare sponsors we promote.

Um, a 160, 100 or 60 dollar join is just asking for a credit or a cancel, hell I'm not sure the 160 thing even exists, it would never get past IPSP scrub in most cases.

Ic3m4nZ · 08-30-2003, 08:08 PM

Test them and see how much % the fuckers shaves.

It's like if you see a lame sponsor like bigplayers.com giving 50$ for a trial you know that a lot of ur signups are going to be shave so don't use them.

inthestars · 08-30-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Choker
I'm not gonna name any names so don't ask. But this is what I have discovered the last two weeks since I started selling paysite traffic.

1. Big sponsors shave some affiliates a LOT and others very little.
2. I can send 10k hits to a sponsor with my affialite codes and roughly 90% of the traffic is counted and my average conversion is like 1 in 1400
3. I can send the EXACT same 10k traffic to a different affilate account with the same sponsor, and less than 60% of the traffic is counted and the ratio is way down in the 1 in 3000 range.

This is just not 1 or 2 sponsors, this is 12 or more. And this is not just a 1000 hits. This is from 100k ad day being sold to paysites, and another 200kplus a day I send to my own affiliate accounts.

:

What is the difference in the traffic being sent to the sponsor by the two affiliates? Does the one being shaved hard have better quality traffic?

4Pics · 08-30-2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by inthestars

What is the difference in the traffic being sent to the sponsor by the two affiliates? Does the one being shaved hard have better quality traffic?

Someone else posted a reasonable explaination, in that they go on a surfer habbit deal.

Sponsor code A - Surfer retains for 4 months
Sponsor code B - Surfer retains for 2 months

1) So Sponsor Code A gets shaved to match sponsor code B.
Half as many joins count?

or

2) Sponsor feels Code A is worth more since members stay so he gets shaved less then code B who doesn't retain and maybe will take the hint that 1/5000 ratio he should move his traffic elsewhere.

Why · 08-30-2003, 08:35 PM

umm, if you were sending really really bad traffic, anyone with a brain woud just come and tell you to take your shit elsewhere.

the indigo · 08-30-2003, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PornDollar
Not all sponsors shave Choker..

I'll put up any amount of money to prove that PornDollar does not.

Is anyone willing to take that bet?

We count the RAW/UNIQUES at the front door..

PD's backend is best of the biz..

That doesn't mean you don't shave. You can count ALL clicks but shave 25% of the sales on ALL accounts so there's no difference from an account to another.

the indigo · 08-30-2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SpeakEasy
Choker, anyone with a 1/2 a brain knows that sponsors shave, and it get's worse everyday...this is not new news. IF you have any proof at all, then post proof and names, otherwise this "Info" you posted is useless!!

You even called your new Topic of this thread "Proof of Shaving" well...post some proof.

He DID post a proof. ie: STATS

Naming sponsors don't prove anything. So, stop asking, dumbasses

Snake Doctor · 08-30-2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ic3m4nZ

It's like if you see a lame sponsor like bigplayers.com giving 50$ for a trial you know that a lot of ur signups are going to be shave so don't use them.

If someone is paying $20 or $25 a signup, it means they probably don't have to shave........but it doesn't mean they won't shave.

I had this discussion with a friend yesterday who was talking about paying $20 per trial and giving access to the processor stats to "prove" there was no shaving.
The point I made was that there are still going to be people who think you shave and still people who will accuse you of shaving.
They could just say you have a script that doesn't pass the reseller id to the processor for a certain % of the joins, so even though the processor stats match yours, you're still shaving.

Its a similar situation to when I was selling cars, and the customer wanted me to knock another $1000 of the price, but I was only a few hundred over invoice and couldn't do it.
I'd bring out the invoice and show it to them and they wouldn't believe it was the "real" invoice.

No matter what the sponsor shows you, the processor stats, screenshots of their own admin, some of you will still think you're being cheated.

There are companies out there right now offering to "audit" sponsors for webmasters, and already everyone is assuming that these companies have been "paid off" by the sponsors being audited to give a good report.

The point I'm making is you'll never know for sure if you're being shaved, and IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE BEING SHAVED.
If a sponsor credits me one signup per month and pays 10K per signup, or the sponsor credits me 1000 signups for the month and pays me $10 per....at the end of the month I still make 10K.

Send your traffic to the place that sends you the biggest check, who gives a fuck how they calculate the numbers to get to the total.

the indigo · 08-30-2003, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OneHungLo
He's right. I discovered this about 4 yrs ago with ARS...i used to have different accounts with them for different tgp's etc..and i began to notice a trend when ever i first signed up for a new account i was averaging 1:100 then after about 2 weeks it would be 1:600 so i would get a new account and it would be back to 1:100.

It was kinda funny to look back at all my accounts i had...the first one i signed up with was at 1:5000 the next 1:1200 the next 1:800 and all the way down the line to the newest one at 1:100

They all do it, they will all deny it, but they all do it. Anyone paying 40 dollars a signup is scamming someone , either it be the surfer or the webmaster... someone's getting fucked

Haha, same thing here. I had a new account every 3-4 weeks. Have about 12 accounts overall at ARS, did not promote them in 2 years.

4Pics · 08-30-2003, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lenny2

Its a similar situation to when I was selling cars, and the customer wanted me to knock another $1000 of the price, but I was only a few hundred over invoice and couldn't do it.
I'd bring out the invoice and show it to them and they wouldn't believe it was the "real" invoice.

Yes, but you never SEE the real invoice, you see the invoice with all the costs added like electricity, receptionist and other non commission employees pays added. You'll never see a real car invoice.

Also, back not too far they used to have multi-invoices and show you different ones so they could get what profit they could squeeze out of you.

I'd not want to compare porn to selling cars since car dealers rip the shit outta people. (Anyone who's sold them knows what they do with used cars holy shit)

KRL · 08-30-2003, 10:10 PM

This thread has become pointless and mute. Shaving or not shaving. Does it really matter? There's nothing anyone is going to do about it anyway. The cheaters will always find a way to cheat people.

Choker obviously isn't going to share his test results despite all the requests to do so.

So just continue to trust no one and you'll be fine.

4Pics · 08-30-2003, 10:17 PM

I don't understand why Choker doesn't do what he did with the traffic brokers. List who he's sending hits to and what each is reporting for hits received / signups. How could any program sue over this as he is just posting the results of his traffic being sent. The programs that convert will stand out and the ones who don't will show nice 1/5000 ratio's.

Send me some hits Choker! www.voyeurcam.com

Choker · 08-30-2003, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4Pics
I don't understand why Choker doesn't do what he did with the traffic brokers. List who he's sending hits to and what each is reporting for hits received / signups. How could any program sue over this as he is just posting the results of his traffic being sent. The programs that convert will stand out and the ones who don't will show nice 1/5000 ratio's.

Send me some hits Choker! www.voyeurcam.com

Sigh sigh and sigh again. I am not the one being shaved. I'm the one getting 90% of my hits counted. It is buyers who buy hits to their affiliate accounts that are getting shaved. One more time.............

I send 10k hits to a sponsor under my affilate codes. 9k are recorded. I send the traffic thru my CTTS script.

A buyer buys from me and gets 10k hits sent to the EXACT same sponsor under his affilate codes. I send the traffic thru my CTTS script. 60% of his traffic gets counted.

This is not from just one sponsor, this is from at least 12 different ones, all very big. Hell one buyer even bought traffic to 2 different sponsors. Same results from both.

I am not going to drop names simply because if I drop any name here in any shape, even if I say "joeblow is my best sponsor and does not shave", then it will be percieved by many as who I am refering to. I did not start this thread to drop names. I started it because this is what my test has revealed. If you want to physically see the stats, it's not going to happen. You can either believe me or not. What reason do I have to lie about this??

Kimmykim · 08-31-2003, 12:34 AM

Give up Choker, you can't win.

KRL · 08-31-2003, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Choker

Sigh sigh and sigh again. I am not the one being shaved. I'm the one getting 90% of my hits counted. It is buyers who buy hits to their affiliate accounts that are getting shaved. One more time.............

I send 10k hits to a sponsor under my affilate codes. 9k are recorded. I send the traffic thru my CTTS script.

A buyer buys from me and gets 10k hits sent to the EXACT same sponsor under his affilate codes. I send the traffic thru my CTTS script. 60% of his traffic gets counted.

This is not from just one sponsor, this is from at least 12 different ones, all very big. Hell one buyer even bought traffic to 2 different sponsors. Same results from both.

I am not going to drop names simply because if I drop any name here in any shape, even if I say "joeblow is my best sponsor and does not shave", then it will be percieved by many as who I am refering to. I did not start this thread to drop names. I started it because this is what my test has revealed. If you want to physically see the stats, it's not going to happen. You can either believe me or not. What reason do I have to lie about this??

Yeh we all get what you're saying. The sponsors you tested are alledgely shaving your traffic clients but not you.

We believe you. No one is saying you're a liar.

So why can't you post the test results to reveal who is doing that so webmasters can be informed and either make a judgment or make their own tests on these sponsors.

What the fuck Choker. In essence, what you're doing to everyone is saying you guys are getting seriously screwed over, I have tests showing who the culprits are but I'm not gonna tell you who's reaming you.

I'm sorry Choker but protecting thieves is fucking bullshit to the max and a total disservice to webmasters working their butts off around here to grow their business.

Kimmykim · 08-31-2003, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Give up Choker, you can't win.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

jojojo · 08-31-2003, 12:54 AM

Quote:

So why can't you post the test results to reveal who is doing that so webmasters can be informed and either make a judgment or make their own tests on these sponsors.

What the fuck Choker. In essence, what you're doing to everyone is saying you guys are getting seriously screwed over, I have tests showing who the culprits are but I'm not gonna tell you who's reaming you.

I'm sorry Choker but protecting thieves is fucking bullshit to the max and a total disservice to webmasters working their butts off around here to grow their business.

Because he is either not 100% confident in his tests or worried that he will be set to the max shave settings...

in fact he probably contacted all those sponsors already to get them to 'shave someone else instead' or be exposed LOL

slackologist · 08-31-2003, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KRL

I'm sorry Choker but protecting thieves is fucking bullshit to the max and a total disservice to webmasters working their butts off around here to grow their business.

and i guess creating enemies overnight with several large companies in the biz is wise...

getting sued by multiple companies for dropping their names here is fuckign bullshit also eh?

I think it's enough to know that it's being done, he has proof ( just like many of you guys posting here do also, but dont drop names)

prostock · 08-31-2003, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by plexer
Hay Choker, send some of that traffic my way!

CCbill tracks and handles our payouts!

Traffic Hits + To CCBill + Signups + CCBill Payouts = No Worries!

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for on the pay sites and all this shaving messs i am kind of new but isnt this a way to keep them from shaving ? for when they handle it all you cant shave , or am i wrong there as well

4Pics · 08-31-2003, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prostock

for on the pay sites and all this shaving messs i am kind of new but isnt this a way to keep them from shaving ? for when they handle it all you cant shave , or am i wrong there as well

In what book did you read that or Where does it say so on Ccbill/Ibill/Epoch/AnyOther billing site that it is impossible to shave?

joefoxxx · 08-31-2003, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Choker

Correct. I am accountable to the buyer, not the buyers sponsor. I don't want or need a buffer. That is why at first I had the rule of not selling traffic to affilate accounts. But so many guys wanted me too, I caved in and did it. And since then all I am hearing is that "Choker my sponsor stats do not match up yours, what is going on here? Well if I tell them their sponosr is shaving them, I put myself in a bad situation. So it's a no-win situation for me. Best thing to do is avoid it entirely. If a paysite owner buys traffic from me and his stats do not match up to mine, then we have a problem I can actually solve without making someone look bad.

I'm not using Choker's traffic.. but what do we've got?

1. He says that when he sells traffic to someone using their affiliate code the traffic turns out to be shit
2. He start 'testing' it himself and says "they shave!"
3. He won't get their names, neither does he post a screen dump of this test without the sponsorname

Can't it just be that Choker SOLD traffic with peoples affiliate code and that turned out bad for those buyers and this way he's trying to make himself look good (they did it they did it.. it wasn't me)

Just my

KRL · 08-31-2003, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by slackologist

and i guess creating enemies overnight with several large companies in the biz is wise...

getting sued by multiple companies for dropping their names here is fuckign bullshit also eh?

I think it's enough to know that it's being done, he has proof ( just like many of you guys posting here do also, but dont drop names)

Getting sued? If someone is going to get sued it'll be the thieving sponsors. In fact if what select ones are doing can be fully investigated documented and verified in a professional way on a mass scale conspiracy as he's stating with auditing investigators and they are in fact using selective discrimination to deliberately defraud webmasters you're into some highly lucrative lawsuit territory. You could bury some of the worst thieves financially in a heartbeat.

There's fortunes to be made from lawsuits as we've all seen recently. Juries typically have no mercy on thieves.

One of my attorneys nailed Exxon in a class action lawuit for cheating its dealer network out of just a couple pennies per transaction. They settled for over $500 Million.

slackologist · 08-31-2003, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KRL

Getting sued? If someone is going to get sued it'll be the thieving sponsors. In fact if what select ones are doing can be fully investigated documented and verified in a professional way on a mass scale conspiracy as he's stating with auditing investigators and they are in fact using selective discrimination to deliberately defraud webmasters you're into some highly lucrative lawsuit territory. You could bury some of the worst thieves financially in a heartbeat.

There's fortunes to be made from lawsuits as we've all seen recently. Juries typically have no mercy on thieves.

One of my attorneys nailed Exxon in a class action lawuit for cheating its dealer network out of just a couple pennies per transaction. They settled for over $500 Million.

That'd be great, but it wont happen by spilling their names here right now before a case has been launched. Why spoil the surprise and give their legal worms a head start.

Muff · 08-31-2003, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathan
Choker,

first of all, to answer your question. No, it is not proof of shaving. Why? Because you have the simple problem that a test this short does not tell you anything worthwhile. Run it for 2 months, then it might be a good test.

You also did not give a lot of details on how you tested this. The way which would make the data somewhat reliable would be to send for example 20000 surfers randomly to the one and to the other affiliate code. Sending 10k to the first and then 10k to the next has WAY too many changes you do not account in, the 2 most important being:

a) Time of day of where the surfer is.
b) Network usage/congestion at the time

Your way of tracking if they count well is also very dangerous. Obviously, they will never count as many hits as you did. They will always have around 5% less simply because of network congestion and people closing browsers while all these damn Location headers make the browser hop all over the place.
Then, taking b) this can cause for quite significant changes in the tracking on the sponsors side because you might just happen to hit hickhups on the net.

a) is very important simply because people tend to signup more or less depending on the time of day. And a) of course also changes the basic mix of what countries the surfers are from.

Oh, and btw, [spam on] SexTracker do by far not have the best stats ;) They are buggy, slow, inaccurate and still have the same features as in 1998[spam off]

Give me some more details on how you did that test exactly to maybe workout a more exact setup to really get some good info from this kind of stuff.

Holy shit someone who has a clue!

pussyluver · 08-31-2003, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KRL
This thread has become pointless and mute. Shaving or not shaving. Does it really matter? There's nothing anyone is going to do about it anyway. The cheaters will always find a way to cheat people.

Choker obviously isn't going to share his test results despite all the requests to do so.

So just continue to trust no one and you'll be fine.

This thread has become long, but not pointless. Shaving I believe is a big issue. Maybe several long and informative threads on the topic will make a sponsor hesitate. Maybe a webmaster will become a little wiser and start using tools to test spnsors. Maybe we'll all learn ways to slow down the cheating as the methods are revealed.

I've test bought memberships more than once to check a sponsor. That test of one buy per-sponsor suspected didn't prove much at all whether I got credit or not. A counter on hits sent might prove more.

You can know in your gut that you're getting shaved, but little you can do. Maybe we need another thread or two and sub divided the topic a bit. But its high time light is brought to the issue.

I've asked more than one sponsor - what's up with my account? That had mixed results. In some cases - all of a sudden conversions went up significantly (for awhile) and in other cases not.

I think shaving hurts the sponsor more than they realize. If I can get better conversions with another sponsor for what ever reason, guess what? And I finally have enough traffic to make a small difference.

A trade organization to "police" affiliates and sponsors on cheating issues in addition to lobbing congress and doing other things trade organizations do is past over due. This subject has come up before, like at Internext. Problem is, nothing seems to happen. I doubt if a comment in this thread will make the difference... BUT bring it up enough times and somethig might happen.

For Chokers part, he does all a favor by attracting attention to the subject - agree with his method or not.

Thanks GFY - for the forum to have the debate...

08-30-2003, 06:29 PM	#155
muchmoreporn Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 784	the final concusion is this.. which ever sponsor makes you the most sales is best to stay with, dont listen to other ppl 1:15 ratios causes im sure sponsors can bullshit them stats on you as well, ive seen it done, if you feel your working too hard and not making enough than move on, if an sponsor is smart enough they wont shave much to keep you but than again if they got webmasters coming and going Im sure they cant give a fuck if you leave and shave the shit outta you. only thing that ever bugged me is how this one person would mess my stats up large never a balance for me to work with so i never knew what to do to make my conversions better. but in the end i made mad sales with them and couldnt care less how much they shaved. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

08-30-2003, 06:35 PM	#157
muchmoreporn Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 784	lets just say i made an affiliate program that converted 1:5 and i paid out 30 bucks a sale, but i would shave you guys and you would only make 1:30, means i would shave you 5 sales and you make 1, would you care? would you not be happy making 1:30? point is im sure if a sponsor is converting very well they will take advantage to themselves, and payout what webmasters EXPECT to make. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

08-30-2003, 06:41 PM	#160
muchmoreporn Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 784	I go to a job and the boss makes 50-100 bucks an hour to have me doing some labour contrustion job and i make 12 bucks an hour, yeah ive been there done that. 12 bucks is all i expect to make. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

08-30-2003, 06:44 PM	#164
muchmoreporn Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 784	how you compared this to a time base statement makes no sense. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

08-30-2003, 07:42 PM	#173
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	And the thread goes on. 6 Miles and runnin. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

08-30-2003, 05:41 PM	#151
baddog So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: the beach, SoCal Posts: 107,089	150 razors

08-30-2003, 05:49 PM	#152
Drake Hello world! Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 12,508	Can somebody please start a new thread with the conclusions from this one? I can't read through all of this.

08-30-2003, 06:38 PM	#158
Matt_WildCash Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,699	He sure isn't going to expose any of his sponsors cause they won't pay him so stop asking

08-30-2003, 07:26 PM	#171
Why MFBA Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: PNW Posts: 7,230	i was having an interesting conversation with a fried of mine on the phone last night about this same topic, is it not illegal to tell someone you will pay them on EVERY join and not do it? they cancel you for violating thier TOS so they dont have to pay you, but they dont even life up to it.... TIME FOR A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT! who should we go after first?

08-30-2003, 07:29 PM	#172
Why MFBA Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: PNW Posts: 7,230	i have been counting my hits out for a very long time, and its amazing how off some sponsors hit counting is my solution.... divide how many hits you sent to them from your server, by the amount on the check. whoever is giing you the most per click is worth sending more traffic to. whoever is sending you the least is either shaving harder or thier sites just dont convert.

08-30-2003, 07:50 PM	#175
Resolute Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,143	Send you traffic to BOYBUCK$ the only thing we shave is . . . . .our boys ! You get paid directly by Ibill/CC Bill __________________ [email protected] ICQ 325624405

08-30-2003, 08:08 PM	#177
Ic3m4nZ Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Montreal! Posts: 6,285	Test them and see how much % the fuckers shaves. It's like if you see a lame sponsor like bigplayers.com giving 50$ for a trial you know that a lot of ur signups are going to be shave so don't use them.

08-30-2003, 08:35 PM	#180
Why MFBA Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: PNW Posts: 7,230	umm, if you were sending really really bad traffic, anyone with a brain woud just come and tell you to take your shit elsewhere.

08-30-2003, 10:10 PM	#186
KRL Entrepreneur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA Posts: 31,429	This thread has become pointless and mute. Shaving or not shaving. Does it really matter? There's nothing anyone is going to do about it anyway. The cheaters will always find a way to cheat people. Choker obviously isn't going to share his test results despite all the requests to do so. So just continue to trust no one and you'll be fine. __________________ If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION! * * * * * * * * * * * * Domains Adult News KRL's Newsletter Biz Tips Just Listed Domains

08-30-2003, 10:17 PM	#187
4Pics Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 7,952	I don't understand why Choker doesn't do what he did with the traffic brokers. List who he's sending hits to and what each is reporting for hits received / signups. How could any program sue over this as he is just posting the results of his traffic being sent. The programs that convert will stand out and the ones who don't will show nice 1/5000 ratio's. Send me some hits Choker! www.voyeurcam.com

08-31-2003, 12:34 AM	#189
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	Give up Choker, you can't win.