Acacia in FantasyLand

[thecat]

I haven't seen any evidence yet that suggest anyone understands exactly what went down between Acacia and
Ron Levy so maybe if we take it out of the industry and into the real world it will be easier to understand.

Back 4-5 months a go when most of the lawsuits hit at once most of you felt and still do that online porn became the number one target because you were making so much money....that's exactly what Acacia was hoping you would think... why? because it keeps you from becoming united against them...not everyone is getting rich.

The reason they picked porn has to do with porn and how many people selling it really want the world to know or who really would rather not put their faith in the hands of a jury filled with parents.

They are basically betting none of you have any balls between your legs and they know if they can get enough of you to puss out the easier it will be getting the other holdouts to join in because no one wants to look like a dumb ass all alone.

They are smart and they did a lot of homework on who they would sue, you can't just sue a bunch of kids running tgp's it won't fly. So they had to carefully pick some big guys but only those they were betting on had no balls.

But they drew a joker in the process because the guy who owns Homegrown is the last person in the world they wanted in the mix. ...

Why? If you read the interviews he's given there's a personality that stands out ... and Acacia knows it ain't good.

It's the "I don't give a damn if I spend every cent I have nobody is going to blackmail my ass"

To most of you that simply doesn't register because your not thinking outside of the porn business.

If you did then you would know that every single brain functioning man and woman in this country hate one thing more than anything else-- Lawyers.
People ain't stupid and there no way they are going to side with Acacia.
Not even a judge is going to get in bed with a rapist.

So what do you do.... Just what they did make some sweet ass under the table deal with Ron Levy. Why? because these guys discovered that Ron was just like them except they've never been found guilty of butt fucking people's credit cards like Ron.

So their hope is that with Ron in their pocket enough people in this industry or at least those he sent dog meat to for the holiday will follow suit.

So what's next.... Acacia's new stooge will be working hard behind the scene trying to make more underhanded deals just like his but not as good.

How dumb can you people be... It's coming at you in all directions, Acacia, Visa ,MC and someday the Feds.

Organize... or just do something that looks like your trying. Talk to the guy at HomeGrown he's willing to fight for what's right. Strength in numbers.

Last but not least you really should think about cleaning up what Levy started. All your sites look like the 976 phone sex ads Levy use to run. You guys sit around kissing on Quiets ass because he's a millionaire .... maybe you should check out his site and find out why.

There's a lot good people working in online, bright people, honest people and business people. You should try to find them and do business with them there the one's that have programs you can understand.

The programs that offer your dog a bone and double your dime on last weeks donut stuck between your sisters leg that the cat pissed on are nothing more than carnival cons....
always were and always will be.

And KimmyKim ...save it for someone who gives a fuck, because I don't!
Butt kisser... you don't know shit about porn!

I won't be replying to this thread if you have something to say to me my email isn't that hard to find.

[pornJester]

oh the conspiracies...

[the_mail_man]

[funkmaster]

Originally posted by thecat
I won't be replying to this thread if you have something to say to me my email isn't that hard to find.

... I am currently downloading the new freeBSD 5.1 ... you think it´s any good ?

[Mr.Fiction]

Other than the personal attacks, it's not a bad commentary on what's going on.

[fantasyman]

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Other than the personal attacks, it's not a bad commentary on what's going on.

But it's nothing close to the truth.

[chodadog]

What a load of bollocks.

[EscortBiz]

Some things only time will tell

Lets see how things are in 6 months

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by EscortBiz
Some things only time will tell

Lets see how things are in 6 months

Hopefully there will be a IMPA donation link set up by then.


For what its worth though, I guess (and hope) the delay is probably because they want to take the money in as IMPA and not to homegrown - probably for legal reasons?

Still.. you guys miss an opportunity with each of these threads. They get people all riled up and ready to donate... but there's nowhere to send the money to.

[quiet]

agreed on the post above. my wallet is ready and willing.

[Mr.Fiction]

Originally posted by fantasyman


But it's nothing close to the truth.

I already said the personal attacks were not needed in the original post.

With all respect to your company and your accomplishments, sometimes people stand and fight on principle. Not just in business, but in life. If it wasn't for people standing and fighting against the odds, regardless of the consequences, then much of what we consider to be important, both in this industry, and in life itself, would not be what it is today.

It was your choice to make, and you have to do what you believe was right for you, but along with that will come some second guessing by those who would have liked to see you make a different choice.

[KRL]

Honestly, its hard to believe anything out of anyone in this business. Everyone is protecting their own interests and pointing fingers at the other guys.

What a frickin circus the porn biz has become.

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
With all respect to your company and your accomplishments, sometimes people stand and fight on principle. Not just in business, but in life. If it wasn't for people standing and fighting against the odds, regardless of the consequences, then much of what we consider to be important, both in this industry, and in life itself, would not be what it is today.

It was your choice to make, and you have to do what you believe was right for you, but along with that will come some second guessing by those who would have liked to see you make a different choice.

Blah blah blah.. it's like nobody can comprehend this simple idea:

It's easy to talk shit about this when you don't have much at stake yourself.

If Acacia wins the suit and gets you.. what are they going to get? $1000? $10,000? 50,000??

FM probably had *THE LARGEST* amount of potential retroactive liability in the industry. He mentioned in that other thread that it was possibly in the low 8 digits (I think thats what he said??) meaning 10 MILLION DOLLARS or more.

FM already said that his paysite companies were sold & that his consulting contract with the new owners is ending soon. I'm sure the last thing he or the new owners (or YOU, if you were in that situation) wants is the be hit with a 10+ MILLION dollar fine for the RETROACTIVE patent infringements (if Acacia wins their claims) a year from now.


Now taking that into consideration. If it were YOU, with that much money at stake...when you can buy this "insurance policy" as FM called it, that will COMPLETELY WIPE OUT the possibilty of Acacia getting anything for retroactive infrigements and STILL fully support the IMPA.. what would you do?

If you have $5,000 in maximum possibile retroactive liability and you want to hold out... no big deal.

Remember, FM was around on the net since like 1995 or something... he was there through the industries best years. Alot of you just hopped in during these last couple years as this shit got all competitive and the profits were divided among tons more webmasters.

There's just no comparison here.

[Mr.Fiction]

Originally posted by goBigtime



Blah blah blah.. it's like nobody can comprehend this simple idea:

It's easy to talk shit about this when you don't have much at stake yourself.

You can talk all day long about FM having so much to lose, but the fact is that richer, poorer, and just as rich people take a fuck of a lot bigger risks than that.

People risk death for things they believe in fighting for. Larry Flynt risked prison, and in fact spent time in prison several times because he believed in something. Your parents or grandparents fought and possibly died in wars, with little or no personal rewards if they didn't die. They did it because they believed it was the right thing to do, fuck the fact that they could die. I bet they wish they could just risk 10 million dollars, instead of their very lives.

Sure, some people have more to lose, which means they have more to start with, so maybe they should be willing to risk a little more.

Again, FM did what he felt was right for him, that's his right, but for you to say that he shouldn't risk anything because he has 10 million dollars and someone else only has 1 million is ridiculous.

I don't have anything against FM or his programs. You don't see me posting that everyone should boycott like some people did, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he does.

[KRL]

If you all haven't figured out its every man for himself right now, you'd better soon. Things are going to get a lot more precarious before they get better. Everyone is starting to hedge their bets in this business.

[Mr.Fiction]

Originally posted by KRL
If you all haven't figured out its every man for himself right now, you'd better soon. Things are going to get a lot more precarious before they get better. Everyone is starting to hedge their bets in this business.

Just don't start any more of those threads like you did the other night. Every man for himself is bad enough, you're trying to make it every man for himself and a bunch of men who don't need to know too.

[quiet]

Originally posted by KRL
If you all haven't figured out its every man for himself right now, you'd better soon. Things are going to get a lot more precarious before they get better. Everyone is starting to hedge their bets in this business.

it always was. however, with something like this - many people have much to lose. many people (including myself) really want to help out homegrown.

and i think the donations will be significant.

[KRL]

mums da word

[KRL]

Originally posted by quiet


it always was. however, with something like this - many people have much to lose. many people (including myself) really want to help out homegrown.

and i think the donations will be significant.

There was way more trust than there is now. Way more people helping others. Now people looking for help get the go back to flipping burgers at McD's newbie attitude.

[quiet]

Originally posted by KRL


There was way more trust than there is now. Way more people helping others. Now people looking for help get the go back to flipping burgers at McD's newbie attitude.

maybe in your experience. definitely not in mine. no one helped me (and my story is not unique) over the years.

now there is so much info out there, when before there was none. it's fucking hilarious

anyway, i will help out homegrown, as will many others.

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Again, FM did what he felt was right for him, that's his right, but for you to say that he shouldn't risk anything because he has 10 million dollars and someone else only has 1 million is ridiculous.

Here let's just finish this real quick...

What do you estimate that YOU have at risk here financially if Acacia wins?

It sounds like you're implying that you have a million at risk yourself -- which you do not.

Listen, even Qshhh, who is one of the confirmed multi-millionaires on the board... say Qshhh made 40 million gross since starting just as an example, I'm sure that number is probably twice or more what the real number is, but lets be generous and say Qshhh has made 40 million gross. At the ~6% maximum pentalty I've read... that would be

that would be ~2.4 million maximum liability (based on the ~6% of gross figure that was mentiond.

Now my guess is that Qshhh's magic number is really more like 10 million since TGP's haven't really been around that long. (Although prepaid ad spots on big sites had been I spose). So Qshhh is probably looking at $600k to $1million maximum liability.

But is not in the US (even though I think its a world wide patent)... Qshhh is probably the last person whos mailbox they drop a request in.

And California based adult entertainment companies were the first. If Ron was in Sweden this wouldn't be an issue right now.

AFAIK, Acacia went after US Based, and specifically CALIFORNIA BASED companies to start.


Anyway, bottom line? What do YOU personally have at stake here? How much do you really plan on contributing to the IMPA when it finally is formed?

Will you contribute even the 3% of whatever you make gross per year? I mean thats what Acacia will want if they win.

If you make $100k a year doing this, will you even contribute $3k to them? Or will you give them $100 and say "GOOD LUCK GUYS!"



ah.. and i think he said "low 8 figures"... which could mean 10 million, 30 million.. who knows. Surely he won't tell us as it will disclose too much info about VMI's figures.. probably bad enough that he had to disclose what he did.

[chodadog]

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Blah blah blah

How much have you contributed to the IMPA?

[Paul Markham]

I agree with him, you either stand up and fight or you stick your ass in the air and get it raped by lawyers.

I don't give a fuck about Acacia and their antics they can't go for me sitting here in Czech.But this is my industry and I'm ready to stand next to anyone who will try to knock these guys out. My wallet is also ready.

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by chodadog


How much have you contributed to the IMPA?

I'm waiting on the contribution link like most everyone else.

I'll be contributing ~3% of my gross income during my best year.

Which is.. chickenshit chickenshit chickenshit, but times are rough now

I haven't even had active paysites since probably 2000, but I still operate on different non-acacia patent infringing levels in this industry, and I recognize this as yet another potential nail in the industries coffin.

I mean the industry will never go away. The biggest of the big guys know that.

No matter how bad it gets... the big guys will still be able to pay whatever fees are required and conduct business.

But a lot of people make their livings here in one way or another.

For us, if the number of webmasters get clipped, we have less people to do business with. So it's good for us to support the IMPA even though we won't be effected directly by the decision.

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by charly
I agree with him, you either stand up and fight or you stick your ass in the air and get it raped by lawyers.

I don't give a fuck about Acacia and their antics they can't go for me sitting here in Czech.But this is my industry and I'm ready to stand next to anyone who will try to knock these guys out. My wallet is also ready.

Charly if it were you, and it was that amount of money, and you were here -- in the States, in California, and they were gunning for you -- you would CYA (cover your ass)

Having to covering your ass -- AT THAT LEVEL OF POTENTIAL LIABILITY by paying their extortion fees would make me want to further support the IMPA even more.

Nobody understands that I guess.

Look, If you all want to feel like the industries stand has been severely weakend by this event -- then I spose, if that makes you contribute less to the IMPA, then it has.

But FM himself has said that he thinks they are bottom feeders and he still intends on fully supporting the IMPA.

I mean what more can people ask for???


I'm sure it sounds like I'm kissing FM's ass here... but it's like this guy IS one of the 'founding fathers' of the industry weather people like it or not. He's helped a lot of people out over the years - big and small.

[quiet]

i'm not interested in arguing about this, but your thesis isn't terribly strong.

if you make 50K a year each year, and someone wants to take 6% of your gross going back many years.

OR

if you make millions a year each year, and someone wants to take 6% of gross going back the same amount of years.

who is more fucked lol?

the guy with a mortgage and cc bills and no real savings, or the guy with millions?

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by quiet

who is more fucked lol?

the guy with a mortgage and cc bills and no real savings, or the guy with millions?

Part of what I'm saying is a lot of these guys have got in during the past couple years. They don't have shit for profits or liability. Yet they expect the big guys to not cover their ass in order to protect theirs.

It's hard for even you to say what you would do Quiet. If your in the states, or specifically in California & you're making millions, you're at the top of the list.

[quiet]

Originally posted by goBigtime
It's hard for even you to say what you would do Quiet. If your in the states, or specifically in California & you're making millions, you're at the top of the list.

possibly. but that doesn't take away anything from what i said above.

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by quiet


possibly. but that doesn't take away anything from what i said above.

I had a reply all locked and loaded.. but I'm so tired now its all jibberish


It had something to do with the fact that the industry has changed A LOT during 1995 - 2003 and being liable NOW to pay fees for all those years when the cash flowed, could be a really bad thing.

Figure that for most that were doing business since 95 to 97 or so and still are, they are no longer in a growth stage. They are probably nowhere near their high numbers for that matter.

I could see how you could possibly have grown since then with your model however. Since your model takes advantage of more recent traffic trends.

[quiet]

Originally posted by goBigtime


I had a reply all locked and loaded.. but I'm so tired now its all jibberish


It had something to do with the fact that the industry has changed A LOT during 1995 - 2003 and being liable NOW to pay fees for all those years when the cash flowed, could be a really bad thing.

Figure that for most that were doing business since 95 to 97 or so and still are, they are no longer in a growth stage. They are probably nowhere near their high numbers for that matter.

I could see how you could possibly have grown since then with your model however. Since your model takes advantage of more recent traffic trends.

cool. still has nothing to do with my example though. if you are a small timer, and have to pay X% gross over several years VS you are a major player, and have to pay X% gross over several years.

it's obvious the small timer gets it in the ass much, much harder. what little saving they might have saved up will be wiped out. and they will make even less going forward (when they really weren't make all that much in the first place).

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by quiet


cool. still has nothing to do with my example though. if you are a small timer, and have to pay X% gross over several years VS you are a major player, and have to pay X% gross over several years.

it's obvious the small timer gets it in the ass much, much harder.

I totally understand you there too.

But should the big timers be forced to NOT cover their ass (for a small fee in comparison to the 10million+ potential liabilty) in order to protect the smaller timers mortage and credit card payments? When they STILL plan to fully fight the cause that benefits big and small?

It's like the small timers are screaming "Damn you FM for covering your big 10million+ dollar ass and not supporting us!!" --- he is still planning to support them. And knowing him, I'm sure it will be more than $100

I guess it bugs me because if I was in his position I would have done the following:

1. Call my attorney.

Who would have looked up the patents, or called his patent specialist friend and asked for advice... eventually they would come back and say "hmm we should probably cover our asses here"

2. Cover my ass as suggested by the legal team whos advice has been protecting my financial empire over the years.

3. Be pissed as fuck that I had to cover my ass and write a fat ass check to the IMPA when the time came to avoid having to write checks in the future.

Yeah. I think it would go down something like that.

And I tell ya.... when everyone started to bash me, personally and in business, and accuse me of all the BS they are accusing FM of -- I would half heartedly want to say "Well fuck you all. I've sold my interests in this stuff anyway. Good luck."


When you make a certain amount of money you start listening to your attorneys. That's just the way it is.

And I'm sure that some people would rather burn their entire fortunes off fighting Acacia rather than giving them a cent. And that's fine... but I damn sure wouldn't. Oh, I would fight them.. but not all the way to the poorhouse. It just doens't make sense.

ESPECIALLY if I could do it the way it sounds like FM did it. Buy the policy, curse the company, support the cause.

Wtf is so hard to understand here?

[goBigtime]

Can we go to sleep and argue about it more tomorrow if this thread is still alive? lol

I've screwed up my sleep schedule once again obsessing over this thread tonight

[quiet]

Originally posted by goBigtime
I totally understand you there too.

we're finally getting somewhere

But should the big timers be forced to NOT cover their ass (for a small fee in comparison to the 10million+ potential liabilty)

i haven't suggested anything of the sort. i've only argued two things:

(1) the homegrown case is very important, and i suspect many will want to help them out.
(2) small time paysite operators will be fucked over more harshly than the 'players' if acacia wins.

that's it.

[quiet]

Originally posted by goBigtime
Can we go to sleep and argue about it more tomorrow if this thread is still alive? lol

I've screwed up my sleep schedule once again obsessing over this thread tonight

my schedule is fucked too. good night

[KRL]

The fact of the matter is, and the hypocracy of this board thread is if indeed Acacia has a valid patent they have every right to make money too, if you are making money by using their technology.

Think about it? If you invented something that others made a fortune off of why shouldn't you deserve a percentage of it.

Remember, if it weren't for all these companies developing the cool technologies that drive the Net, where would many of you be in terms of your personal wealth?

Try to understand it from the creators side. I've had patent/trademark infringements on things I've created before so I know how pissed you get when you see other people profiting off your ideas and intellectual property.

[quiet]

Originally posted by KRL
hink about it? If you invented something that others made a fortune off of why shouldn't you deserve a percentage of it.

certainly. do you think acacia invented video transmission on the net? good night for real

[nuclei]

Originally posted by KRL
If you all haven't figured out its every man for himself right now, you'd better soon. Things are going to get a lot more precarious before they get better. Everyone is starting to hedge their bets in this business.

The reason it *IS* every man for himself is because nobody seems willing to organize. I have to agree with that point. If this industry was one big group as a whole, and actually pulled together as a single group, acacia wouldnt have even tried this shit here.

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by quiet


i haven't suggested anything of the sort. i've only argued two things:

(1) the homegrown case is very important, and i suspect many will want to help them out.

(2) small time paysite operators will be fucked over much more harshly than the 'players' if acacia wins.

that's it.

Well blah. That goes without saying

The big guys (and girls), if they have to, can pay of course.

But the retroactive fees due could work out to a considerable percentage of their CURRENT income due to the changes in the industry over the years. That's what I'm saying.

The 6% totals over the years might wind up being 25-50% or more of your current annual income. See?

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by quiet


my schedule is fucked too. good night

lol good luck.

[KRL]

Originally posted by quiet


certainly. do you think acacia invented video transmission on the net? good night for real

Whether they did or didn't isn't relevant Quiet, because even if they didn't the webmasters here would still be protesting. Someone obviously invented it, so someone obviously deserves some sort of licensing fee. Whether it is or isn't Acacia, they have the Patent, and were clever enough to get it, and that is what the courts go by 99% of the time.

[quiet]

Originally posted by goBigtime



Well blah. That goes without saying

The big guys (and girls), if they have to, can pay of course.

But the retroactive fees due could work out to a considerable percentage of their CURRENT income due to the changes in the industry over the years. That's what I'm saying.

The 6% totals over the years might wind up being 25-50% or more of your current annual income. See?

see what? this all goes without saying.

like i said above, those two points were the only points i was arguing. what bothered me is you saying that somehow someone who makes millions, is in a worse position than someone who makes far less (with respect to the acacia angle). that of course, is utter bullshit.

cheers

[quiet]

Originally posted by KRL
Whether they did or didn't isn't relevant

it's HUGELY relevant. i can't believe you said that. oh well

[Paul Markham]

Originally posted by nuclei


The reason it *IS* every man for himself is because nobody seems willing to organize. I have to agree with that point. If this industry was one big group as a whole, and actually pulled together as a single group, acacia wouldnt have even tried this shit here.

Very true and if they get away with it on any level it will just show to everyone else out there that we are easy targets.

The days when this industry was the "New Frontier" are over, this is now an established industry and we need to stand together.

Create some rules/guidelines, Tell hosts, sponsors, CC processors that if you do business with those outside the group no one inside the group will touch you. At the moment CP, bestiality, rape, incest pirate sites all get's CC processed, hosted etc, because no one in the in the industry will organise us into a group.

Anyone out their with legal and organisation skills could make a fortune by doing it. Then let Acacia come after us, they would not start.

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by nuclei


The reason it *IS* every man for himself is because nobody seems willing to organize. I have to agree with that point. If this industry was one big group as a whole, and actually pulled together as a single group, acacia wouldnt have even tried this shit here.

Heres the thing....

Lets say the industry pulled together as a group and did something simple -- like got rid of trials and cross sells. Full, reasonably priced memberships only.

Of course this would mean affiliate payments would need to go down across the board as well. But this would be accepted by the webmasters, because we are all pulling together in harmony.

And well.. now that there are no more trials and cross sells, I'm sure that somebody in some other country wouldn't decide "heeey I can be the only person with trials and make a killing!"... and then it would all start again.

The problem with this industry is that if there is money to be made... no matter how unethical or immoral, someone somewhere is going to do it.

Of course that's not to say that everyone is bad ... most people I know are pretty decent actually. But my 60 year old aunt really insn't interested in animal sex.. or unsolicited sexual offers at all for that matter.

If we were all working for like shiney pieces of tin foil and glass marbles, I'm sure everything would be different & the industry would be able to live in harmony.


Now come back to reality and pretend like you have $10M+ hanging out there at risk from the past 7-10 years of business... what would you do?

Like I said.. if it were me, I'm going to make a deal, curse the shit out of the company, and support the IMPA so that I hopefully will not have to continue to license technology that has been unclaimed for the past 10+ years.

[goBigtime]

Originally posted by KRL
Someone obviously invented it, so someone obviously deserves some sort of licensing fee....

The person who originally invented it could have saw it somewhere else first

That's probably part of what the court battle will decide no?

[Kimmykim]

Interesting how nevermind just goes around trying to stir up shit all the time.

[KRL]

Originally posted by quiet


it's HUGELY relevant. i can't believe you said that. oh well

What I meant was if its not them it would be someone else.

What my point here is this whole issue is like a movie theater. You pay for the building (hosting), you pay for the content (Hollywood Studios), but nobody seems to want to acknowledge you should pay for the movie projector that puts the movies on the screen.

[Tipsy]

Originally posted by KRL


What I meant was if its not them it would be someone else.

What my point here is this whole issue is like a movie theater. You pay for the building (hosting), you pay for the content (Hollywood Studios), but nobody seems to want to acknowledge you should pay for the movie projector that puts the movies on the screen.

Where you're still getting very confused is about the whole invention thing. Study the patent carefully and check timelines. NOTHING was invented or contributed to streaming movies in any way. Now we just need to wait and see if the courts realise that. Just because the patent office are too dumb to not grant a patent (or the rules too fucked) it does not mean the patent ever meant anything in the first place.

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by KRL


What I meant was if its not them it would be someone else.

What my point here is this whole issue is like a movie theater. You pay for the building (hosting), you pay for the content (Hollywood Studios), but nobody seems to want to acknowledge you should pay for the movie projector that puts the movies on the screen.

Acacia isn't selling a movie projector. Acacia is trying to sell the physics of light refracting through celluliod and reflecting off the screen. The movie projector is software such as Apache, MS Media Server, whatever is used to stream RealMedia, etc.

I'll admit that I'm not particularly familiar with patent law, but is it common practice to go after consumers or manufactuers of infringing products?

[TheFLY]

50 bling bling.