Refunds = Chargebacks, all processors..? - GoFuckYourself.com

chupacabra · 06-02-2003, 09:55 AM

i remember reading here recently something about refunds being treated the same as chargebacks these days, is this accurate? i wasn't sure if it was only certain processors, or certain creditcards perhaps..? any who can clarify, your input would be appreciated. thx all..!

max.yambo · 06-02-2003, 10:14 AM

you can process as many refund transactions as you want. 'refund' is a regular type of transactions, like sale, auth or whatever. it's totally different from chargebacks.

chupacabra · 06-02-2003, 10:42 AM

Quote:

'refund' is a regular type of transactions, like sale, auth or whatever. it's totally different from chargebacks.

hmm... this is what i had thought as well, but there were some recent threads that definitely said otherwise; i'm assuming this was an issue w/ some certail processor then..

nevermind · 06-02-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by max.yambo
you can process as many refund transactions as you want. 'refund' is a regular type of transactions, like sale, auth or whatever. it's totally different from chargebacks.

Actually, under Mastercard rules:

If your refunds are equal to or are greater than your chargebacks, then Mastercard starts to count refunds as chargebacks.

This is what has been discussed on other threads.

It's not a distinction made by processors. It's a specific rule affecting Mastercard transactions.

gothweb · 06-02-2003, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nevermind

Actually, under Mastercard rules:

If your refunds are equal to or are greater than your chargebacks, then Mastercard starts to count refunds as chargebacks.

This is what has been discussed on other threads.

It's not a distinction made by processors. It's a specific rule affecting Mastercard transactions.

So, in other worse-- Yes, all processors. It is worrying that Yambo didn't know about this.

chupacabra · 06-02-2003, 11:18 AM

Quote:

If your refunds are equal to or are greater than your chargebacks, then Mastercard starts to count refunds as chargebacks.

ahh... ok, that clears that up. so, this is across the board then, for any processor/ISPS? we very rarely have any chargebacks, so the occasional refund is definitely going to put our refund ratio higher than chargeback... that makes little to no sense actually..

gothweb · 06-02-2003, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chupacabra

ahh... ok, that clears that up. so, this is across the board then, for any processor/ISPS? we very rarely have any chargebacks, so the occasional refund is definitely going to put our refund ratio higher than chargeback... that makes little to no sense actually..

Look at it this way... An IPSP or webmaster could basically just click "refund" as soon as they have reason to suspect a chargeback. The transaction still doesn't go through (or make MC/Visa their cut). Refunds could be used as a way to keep chargebacks low, but still keep the percentage of non-completed transactions too high. Personally, I think refunding people is better than having them charge back, but apparently MC doesn't want us refunding...

Kimmykim · 06-02-2003, 11:22 AM

Mastercard reserves the right to assess fees and fines for credits in the same manner as chargebacks, if certain conditions are met.

First you have to have a minimum of 15 cbs, more than 15 credits and the two combined must be >1% of CDC by transaction count.

Most likely not going to be something they go after the average low volume account for, but it's not just IPSPs that have been punished this way, more than one with their own merchant account has be slapped as well.

nevermind · 06-02-2003, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chupacabra

ahh... ok, that clears that up. so, this is across the board then, for any processor/ISPS? we very rarely have any chargebacks, so the occasional refund is definitely going to put our refund ratio higher than chargeback... that makes little to no sense actually..

Apparently Mastercard doesn't want merchants to issue too many credits as a substitute for chargebacks. And apparently this is their criteria for determining that.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's the rule.

It's also a big part of Epoch's lawsuit against Mastercard. They're arguing that it's unfair. Obviously, the courts will have to decide.

nevermind · 06-02-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim

First you have to have a minimum of 15 cbs, more than 15 credits and the two combined must be >1% of CDC by transaction count.

I thought you are in potential fine trouble if the the credits and CB's are both 15, (and over 1 percent)

But it's a good point regardless.

Obviously they don't bother with the small stuff.

loverboy · 06-02-2003, 11:47 AM

Mortimer · 06-02-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmykim
Mastercard reserves the right to assess fees and fines for credits in the same manner as chargebacks, if certain conditions are met.

First you have to have a minimum of 15 cbs, more than 15 credits and the two combined must be >1% of CDC by transaction count.

Most likely not going to be something they go after the average low volume account for, but it's not just IPSPs that have been punished this way, more than one with their own merchant account has be slapped as well.

Is that for a one month period?

nevermind · 06-02-2003, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gothweb

It is worrying that Yambo didn't know about this.

I agree. It's probably one of the biggest problems that processors are dealing with right now.

I don't know how you can tell webmasters to issue as many credits as they like, unless you're not accepting Mastercard or ... whipping up some other miracle ... LOL

chupacabra · 06-02-2003, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Most likely not going to be something they go after the average low volume account for, but it's not just IPSPs that have been punished this way, more than one with their own merchant account has be slapped as well.

thx for the input Kimmy... so, for someone like us who might have 3-5 mastercard refunds a year, this shouldn't be anything to worry about overall..?

max.yambo · 06-02-2003, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Actually, under Mastercard rules:

can anybody show me such 'rules' huh? what are you calling rules? or you're saying that mastercard/visa announces rules right here on gfy?

gothweb,

im reading gfy (just like you) and i've seen threads about "refunds =chargebacks" which is very far from true.

max.yambo · 06-02-2003, 01:27 PM

and also please show me the EU processor that counts refunds as chargebacks...

nevermind · 06-02-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by max.yambo

can anybody show me such 'rules' huh? what are you calling rules? or you're saying that mastercard/visa announces rules right here on gfy?

gothweb,

im reading gfy (just like you) and i've seen threads about "refunds =chargebacks" which is very far from true.

Wow. For somebody who's in the processing biz, you must be completely out of it.

Epoch's lawsuit:

http://www.paycom.net/mastercard/lawsuit.pdf

The relevant info starts Page 27. I guess you missed the lawsuit thread.

AVN article published three years ago on the same Mastercard rules:

http://www.avnonline.com/issues/2000...c0500_01.shtml

The same info was cited on various GFY threads as well, like this one:

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...t=master card

nevermind · 06-02-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by max.yambo
and also please show me the EU processor that counts refunds as chargebacks...

Good God!

Why don't you do some homework and demonstrate some basic knowledge first.

Maybe try a basic GFY Mastercard search for starters ... LOL

Or, check out this statement from a EU processor:

http://www.websitebilling.co.uk/

I don't know what kind of operation you are running but, the fact that you don't know about any of this speaks volumes.

max.yambo · 06-03-2003, 01:56 AM

Both of your posts are related to specific processors. Show me the RULES buddy. THE RULES. Don't you get it?

nevermind · 06-03-2003, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by max.yambo
Both of your posts are related to specific processors. Show me the RULES buddy. THE RULES. Don't you get it?

What a complete IDIOT!

If you knew anything about processing, which you obviously don't, you would know where to get these rules yourself. I am not here to do your work for you.

MORON.

max.yambo · 06-03-2003, 05:00 AM

hm. ok

max.yambo · 06-03-2003, 05:12 AM

it seemed like in previous posts you were here to do my homework

now you're not?

06-02-2003, 09:55 AM	#1
chupacabra Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,626	Refunds = Chargebacks, all processors..? i remember reading here recently something about refunds being treated the same as chargebacks these days, is this accurate? i wasn't sure if it was only certain processors, or certain creditcards perhaps..? any who can clarify, your input would be appreciated. thx all..!

06-02-2003, 10:14 AM	#2
max.yambo Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 218	you can process as many refund transactions as you want. 'refund' is a regular type of transactions, like sale, auth or whatever. it's totally different from chargebacks. __________________ <a href="http://www.yambo.biz"><img border="0" src="http://www.yambo.biz/public/gfy.yambo.gif"/></a> Max Bugaenko Yambo Financials Ltd. <b>ICQ 111225</b>

06-02-2003, 11:47 AM	#11
loverboy When it rains, it pours Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 20,609	omg

06-02-2003, 01:27 PM	#16
max.yambo Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 218	and also please show me the EU processor that counts refunds as chargebacks... __________________ <a href="http://www.yambo.biz"><img border="0" src="http://www.yambo.biz/public/gfy.yambo.gif"/></a> Max Bugaenko Yambo Financials Ltd. <b>ICQ 111225</b>

06-03-2003, 01:56 AM	#19
max.yambo Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 218	Both of your posts are related to specific processors. Show me the RULES buddy. THE RULES. Don't you get it? __________________ <a href="http://www.yambo.biz"><img border="0" src="http://www.yambo.biz/public/gfy.yambo.gif"/></a> Max Bugaenko Yambo Financials Ltd. <b>ICQ 111225</b>

06-02-2003, 11:22 AM	#8
Kimmykim bitchslapping zebras!!!!! Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: In a shack by the beach Posts: 16,015	Mastercard reserves the right to assess fees and fines for credits in the same manner as chargebacks, if certain conditions are met. First you have to have a minimum of 15 cbs, more than 15 credits and the two combined must be >1% of CDC by transaction count. Most likely not going to be something they go after the average low volume account for, but it's not just IPSPs that have been punished this way, more than one with their own merchant account has be slapped as well.

06-03-2003, 05:00 AM	#21
max.yambo Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 218	hm. ok __________________ <a href="http://www.yambo.biz"><img border="0" src="http://www.yambo.biz/public/gfy.yambo.gif"/></a> Max Bugaenko Yambo Financials Ltd. <b>ICQ 111225</b>

06-03-2003, 05:12 AM	#22
max.yambo Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 218	it seemed like in previous posts you were here to do my homework now you're not? __________________ <a href="http://www.yambo.biz"><img border="0" src="http://www.yambo.biz/public/gfy.yambo.gif"/></a> Max Bugaenko Yambo Financials Ltd. <b>ICQ 111225</b>