Mutt

what's wrong with forcing people to pay for their own healthcare? So the rest of society isn't forced to pay for the 70% of your workers who turned up their nose at your affordable health insurance should they crash their motorcycle or get cancer. Somebody has to pay and no it won't be the community holding raffles and 5K runs to raise money. That does go on and it's nice but it's no solution, so many people these days are isolated, people move around the country and don't have roots in a community, the way people live has changed.

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theking

If you are concerned about government spending then keep the Republicans out of office because they spend as much and even more than the Democrats...they just spend on different things than the Democrats.

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crockett

This is really the only reason I support democrats. I'm a realist, and understand that no matter who is in office they will gladly spend my tax dollars. For this reason I usually vote democrat, because at least with them I get something for my tax dollars. Republicans simply give me no benefit as they don't give me a return on my tax dollar investment due to me not being in the 1% or the military. The only way I could vote Republican was if they were true fiscal conservatives, that actually cut all spending and did things like balance the budget and minded our own business here in the US. However those republicans don't exist and for the libs that's their fairy tale dream while they continue to back spend crazy republicans.

Minte

No question.. it's government spending. The rest of the fellows in this thread are making this out like it's the republicans fault. When in fact, the president and the senate have been democrat controlled for over 5 years. I know we've all seen this before, but it's still worth a look THE US DEBT BY YEAR: From USTREASURY.GOV

09/30/2012 16,066,241,407,385.89

09/30/2011 14,790,340,328,557.15
09/30/2010 13,561,623,030,891.79
09/30/2009 11,909,829,003,511.75
09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49
09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86

09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25
09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 2,602,337,712,041.16
09/30/1987 2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 2,125,302,616,658.42

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Evil1

I'm in mass too, here's the part you missed, romney care would financially destroy the state without the federal government paying for most of it. That system is not sustainable. They rest of the country is paying for mass's health insurance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...or-romneycare/

"The most recent renewal was last December 2011, when the state secured $26.75 billion in federal funds over the course of three years. It will, among other programs, continue to finance the universal coverage program."

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Minte

All true, but I've read it twice now and I still am not seeing the solution.

Fining people to buy a product they can't afford. That's what they came up with.
And keep in mind. I could easily drop the companies contribution to 50%,which is what most do and it would be even less participation in our group.

Now your argument,,to pay people more. That's not possible. Our payroll is already at the top of the scale on the P&L. If anything we should be looking for ways to reduce payroll costs. Do you think that plastic dropped in price this year? It didn't.
Do you think our customers are just going to pay us more for things they can buy in China for less? They won't

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tony286

nothing happened it was just obama writing checks to all the poor people. lol

tony286

You shouldnt have to be in the healthcare business. It should be baseline medicare for all and if people want greater coverage they buy ridders.

Minte

What in that list could you possibly see as funny.


Do you run your house like this? Borrow from everyone you know then make bullshit excuses about how you'll pay them Friday... DO you have children Tony, Doesn't it bother you at all what this government is saddling them with.

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Minte

But it isn't Tony. It's what we all know it is.

Obamacare is another tax for people to pay.

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crockett

I don't think anyone is saying the employer should front the whole bill. The problem is we are already fronting the bill for people with no insurance.

We either pay it on the front side or the back, but trust me, tax dollars are already spent for this..

You want a better solution? There is only one and that's if we socialize it and all medical cost are covered by the state. Yea know just like those freedom hating europeans do it. Worse yet how that evil dictator Castro does it in Cuba.

Of course that can never happen n MERICA.

Robbie

All I'm seeing in this thread are people calling each other names and going on about Republicans being "Evil" and Democrats "Bad, but much better"

Bullshit.

None of you that think ObamaCare is great are addressing ANY of the things that I brought up. The closest I've seen is "It's not perfect".

Not perfect? LOL!

Can one of you guys simply address these questions without attacking me personally or starting a diatribe about fucking Fox News or what Bush did?

1. Why did Obama personally give big business a one year delay on ObamaCare...and won't give the same delay to small business and individuals? Especially since it's supposed to be so good for us?

2. Why are the UNIONS fighting with him to try and get exempted since it's so good for us.

3. Why has Congress given itself a financial subsidy for every member, their entire family, and their staffs and families to supplement their ObamaCare...especially since it's so good for us?

Please Obama-Apologists...don't tell me what my politics are, don't babble on with your fixation with Fox News, and don't give me anymore of what your political views are (because I don't care about that).

Just answer the fucking questions for a guy (me) who voted for Obama in 2008.

And then add in this bonus question:
Why did Obama make a deal with Big Pharma and Big Medical Corp. and Big Insurance when he first took office to assure them that they could continue to price gouge the American people?
If he had simply put an end to THAT...we wouldn't need fucking insurance. We could pay our doctor visits out of pocket and only have insurance for catastrophic reasons (Like it was for most of my life)

__________________
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ClaudiaMarie.Com

crockett

There is a very simple answer to all your questions Robbie. It's called Lobbyist and the fact , with out giving into to lobbyist and their campain contrabuitions no one in the congress or senate would vote for anything.

You shouldn't be surprised that a bill coming out of congress isn't as good as it could of been, you should be mad at the reason it happens.

Vendzilla

No, it was Ben Bernake printing out 85 billion dollars a month to keep wall street happy.

Poor people don't get any of that, it goes to the top 1%

This is still going on!

Barry wants to tax the rich so he can pay the rich

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Vendzilla

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101043947
85 billion a month

And a president that hasn't had a budget in 4 years? He summits them, but no one wants to pass them.

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

Robbie

Thank you crockett.

And that is exactly what I've been trying to say the whole time.

This isn't about Republicans or Democrats. President Obama doesn't care about me or you. Neither does the Tea Party, Mitch McConnell, or ANY politician.

They care about the money and the power.

And as I said earlier...sometimes, that coincides with doing something that actually helps you and me. But it's just a happy side-effect.

And that's what I mean when I say Dems and Repubs are all alike.
Yes, they SAY different things. And yes...Michelle Bachman is batshit crazy.

But in the end they ALL are in it for power and money and ego.

The truly rich get richer and WE the people pay the price every time.

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

Robbie

That's exactly what should happen.

But for some reason ObamaCare isn't doing that.
This whole argument is about Congress DEFUNDING it.

Now how the hell do you "defund" something of a TRILLION dollars when everybody is supposedly paying for their own "healthcare" (Not really healthcare...just paying insurance companies).

See what I'm saying? If ObamaCare was truly about us all paying for our own medical treatment (which I have done my entire life...even when I was making $200 a week playing in bands), then why are the taxpayers being asked to fork out a trillion dollars???

A giant bureaucracy, more people telling us what we can and can't do, AND costing us a trillion bucks.

If ObamaCare really worked...it shouldn't cost us (as Obama always says) "a single dime"

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

Mutt

There are millions who can't afford to pay, they don't even pay any income tax. Then there are other millions who have pre-existing conditions who the insurance companies wouldn't insure, now they will be covered and they are going to cost the system a lot of money.

What would have happened if while you were playing in bands making $200 a week if travelling to a gig you were in a horrific traffic accident. They rush you to a hospital, you're a mess, bones broken everywhere, lung punctured, liver lacerated and your brain is hemmorhaging. You have no insurance. The doctors meet to discuss your case, they see you're young and strong, you'll need many long surgeries, neurosurgery team, orthopedic team, and if you do survive you'll be in critical care unit for weeks and in hospital for months - hundreds of thousands of dollars in care. Who pays for all this? You may not even survive. So how would you feel if they came to the decision to not go to much trouble on your behalf, basically letting you die or worse, you do survive with major brain damage, your legs are fucked up, you're a crippled retard basically. It may have not have happened to you but every day cases like this arrive through the doors of ER's in every decent sized hospital in the country. Somebody has to pay for those people, I keep asking who. Forget about all the shady and corrupt politicians and insurers. 6 months of highly specialized medical care costs a fortune - who pays the bills for a 25 year old musician who makes 200 dollars a week?

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crockett

Well the problem is while yes they are all the same, when it comes to money and lobbyist, they are still very different in what they do while in office. The money in politics is not something that is going to change anytime soon, so you still have to pick between the lesser of two evils. IMO that means democrats for the reasons I've pointed out already in this topic.

As I said before I don't think dems are anywhere near perfect, but rather as the lesser of two evils.

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crockett

This is what I meant earlier in the topic, when I said tax payers are already paying for people that have no insurance. We either pay for it on the front end with health care for everyone, or we pay for it when they can't cover the bills and the states have to help cover the bill, like they are doing right now. At least with Obama care it will shift to the federal govt rather than states.

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Robbie

And there is the problem that I'm talking about...

Nothing changes. The whole system is still the same.

Tons of people freeloading off people like you and me. Only now, the insurance companies are gonna make hundreds of billions more dollars AND the govt. will spend even more money.

Doesn't sound like this is "better" to me.

What would have been the best thing would have been true HEALTHCARE reform. Not forced insurance to pay for the govt. approved price gouging that they do to us.

The govt. is now heavily involved in our health care and have been since the mid 1980's that I can remember...and ever since the govt. got involved (talking about since the advent of HMO's that were supposed to "solve" everything), the prices have went through the roof.

So...IF we are going to be sheep and let the govt. run our lives, why not have the govt. impose price controls? Or at the very least make hospitals and doctors show their pricing and let us shop (just as was said earlier about cosmetic surgery)?

Add in tort reform and stopping Big Pharma from price gouging in the U.S. and you would then have the real "ObamaCare" that would make a difference.

Then we would all be able to afford health insurance for CATASTROPHE only.

As to your wondering what I would do if I had had a bad car wreck with no health insurance...
That already happened to me.

I documented it before.

It's how I found out how the system really works.

They put me on a payment plan. My bill was astronomical...like a hundred and fifty grand.

The corporation that owned the hospital I was in got in touch with me and revealed the TRUE cost of my hosptitalization and I ended up paying 1/10th of the original price-gouged amount.

So that is your answer. I paid it when I got badly hurt. (broken neck, two broken arms, in ICU for a week in a coma, hospital for almost a full month).

Nobody paid my bill but me. That's how I was raised. And I'll bet (even though I don't know you) that you would do the same thing.

Sadly, there are millions of people who are fucking scum who wouldn't even try to pay their own bills. That's just a sad fact.
I'm not lumping extreme cases where people's entire lives are destroyed and have no way at all to handle it...but that isn't common, statistically speaking, when compared to the entire population as a whole.

ObamaCare is doing nothing more than continuing the milking of the American people out of their hard earned money.

There is even a fine in the bill for people who have too MUCH insurance. Did you know that?
If you are well off enough to over-insure you and your family...you will now be penalized and pay a "Luxury insurance tax"
Fucking unreal...

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

Vendzilla

I hear commercials in the morning about how illegal aliens should be getting Obama Care.

65 million a year LA county already pays for children of illegal aliens. That's just one county people, if they get on Obamacare, how long do you think that can last on the backs of people that actually pay taxes?

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

tony286

https://youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M

why healthcare costs so much

Robbie

So we are paying tons of money in taxes (right...we all know that our tax money is spent sooooo wisely) according to this.

And THAT is why everything is jacked up in price 5 times more than any other country on Earth? THAT is why a dixie cup of water is $50 in the hospital to take a $20 Tylenol?

Bullshit.

Healthcare is "expensive" because hospitals, insurance companies, and drug manufacturers have lobbyists that work with our federal govt. to keep the actual prices high.

Us paying taxes has no correlation to the price a fucking doctor charges you or the price that a pill manufacturer charges.

IF we were paying all these taxes for healthcare...then it should be so damn cheap that it's almost free.

It's amazing to me to see otherwise smart people spend so much time trying to make up reasons and complicated scenarios to hide what is obvious: We are getting ripped off.

And it seems that Democrats hate every "Big Business" out there for making so much money...EXCEPT Big Pharma and Big Medical Corp

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

adendreams

For an otherwise pretty intelligent dude - this statement ranks among the least informed and absurdly rediculous statements I've ever heard on GFY.

You do realize your opinion has been bought and paid for by the most expensive lobbying campaign in history right? You took the gold plated bait Robbie - hook, line, and platinum sinker.

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Minte

Bold comment. If you want to be taken serious, don't use the laughing icons. Makes you look silly.

That being said. how about you enlighten us with what obamacare really is about.

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theking

What it is really about...is to see that everyone in the nation is insured. Goverment subsidized insurance for the poor and fines via the IRS for those that can afford insurance but do not purchase insurance. Seems pretty simple to me.

Will the implementation of it have problems...of course...will it be modified from time to time...of course.

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galleryseek

Why is Obamacare wrong?

Simply stated, it's immoral. It's wrong to initiate force, or the threat thereof, against a person or their property. Non-Aggression Principle, it's what we teach our children and it's what we were taught as children, "Don't hit, don't steal from others, don't threaten others."

How do we fix healthcare though? Easy, get government out of the equation and free the market. Healthcare used to be affordable to even the most poor individuals through lodges that held contracts with doctors. Greedy politicians and other doctors though introduced legislation which banned such practices and bam, the cost began to sky rocket.

You can't fix a government problem with government.

theking

I was surprised by the Supreme Court decision as I thought that it would be a no brainer that it would be found unconstitutional and it was...until Roberts decided that it could be constitutional as a tax...which I really don't understand his thinking on that decision.

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galleryseek

(a) The judicial system labels an act of theft (taxation) as being lawful. So it makes sense that an act of theft through coercion (pay us for healthcare or pay fines!) would be labeled as a tax.

(b) The public at large views taxation as a necessary evil. Label it as a tax, and the masses will go along with it.

Minte

This would all be fine if along with mandating that everyone has to buy a product, they would actually look for ways to make it affordable. Premiums have risen, hospital stays cost more, prescription drugs cost more. I am confident that the people in government who are paid to know these things, did.

Plain and simple.. it's a tax.

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theking

While I do not agree that tax is theft...I just cannot see Roberts thinking as to how forcing everyone to purchase private insurance can be legally considered as a tax...what legal precedent did he use...if any?

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adendreams

I'm sorry I appear silly to you but I'm really laughing at these long well thought out opinions, especially by Robbie and others who "think" they oppose socialized medicine (Medicare) because the health insurance industry has spent billions and billions of dollars on the largest misinformation campaign in US history.

You guys who want to see The Affordable Care Act destroyed are bought and paid for suckers...pawns in a grand battle that will determine to a very large extent the future of this nation...your views about Obamacare have been carefully crafted in the boardrooms and back rooms of some of the worlds most vile corporations. You have been duped into taking the most expensive, per person, bait in history.

So to see otherwise smart dudes in here acting as de facto lobbyists for these major corps that will stop at nothing to protect their outrageous profits is indeed laughable.

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theking

It is my understanding that their thinking was/is that if everyone has to purchase insurance that the cost of insurance would go down because of all of the healthy people having insurance and not using it and because the competition would reduce cost...but it is also my understanding that they did not include purchasing insurance across state lines...which will greatly reduce amy competition benefits.

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crockett

Umm yea politically motivated commercials on TV.. Those are just always filled with facts.....or just BS.

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Minte

What's laughable is that so many here applaud and support an administration that facilitated this on the country.

The affordable care act is already destroyed.

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Minte

There are people on this board that read minds, and are clearly in the loop of what goes on in the inner sanctums of Washington. Unfortunately, I am not one of them.

I only can relate to what I see.
And what I see is a total failure. A single payer system would've been far better than this. And the democrats had the chance to do it.

Remember the deals they made with dem senators from Nebraska, Michigan. Those were the ones we heard about.

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galleryseek

Precedents don't really mean shit. The US passed 40,000 new laws in 2012 alone.

We give them a monopoly on law and of course there are going to be massive contradictions and discrepancies in the penal code; we should expect this.

They make it illegal to ingest a piece of vegetation known to be less harmful than alcohol, but they make alcohol legal.

They make it illegal to not wear a seat belt but allow motorcyclists ride without helmets.

These are the natural consequences of delegating a group of individuals a monopoly on law under the guise of a representative democracy. The more power one has, the more susceptible they are to corruption. You'll never get rid of corruption, but we can get rid of the notion that we need a few rulers.

adendreams

Not sure what you mean by it being destroyed but it certainly isnt going to be repealed- the possibility of that is a pure fiction being perpetrated by the Tea Party and other all white (nearly) hate based political factions aligned with Big Health.

You do understand that the end result of the progressive attempt to make health insurance universal - the final draft of Obamacare was a COMPROMISE - it was so watered down by the fight to get it passed that it looks very little like the original bill.

Minte sounds like he has legitimate gripes with the way it works and how it affects his business - IF some business' are affected adversely (and thats a big if) then have you looked at ways it can be amended and improved over the coming years to make it a stronger and more cost effective policy? Or you just going to join the chorus of bought and paid for haters and talk shit about the law with no suggestions for any other course of action - just all out repeal and throw 10's of millions of people off the roles of health care.

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crockett

Speaking of money in politics.. One of the most out spoken opponents of Obama care has been the Gov of GA, Nathan Deal. Last week news broke that he has been taking money through a special PAC group that is paying money to a firm set up by his daughter in law. One of the main donors to this fund is United Health Group, which is a lobbyist group that is against Obama care.

Want to know why the govt doesn't work for you? Because even when they get caught red handed taking bribes, nothing happens.


http://onlineathens.com/local-news/2...al-raises-786k

This story disappeared almost as fast as it appeared..

tony286

yep the insurance chief bragged about sabotaging it. Im telling you,they are afraid it will work not fail that's why they are fighting it so hard.
http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/jay-bookm...age-obamacare/

theking

You cannot read minds but apparently you can see in the future as you have declared something that has yet to be implemented a"total failure". It will be years before the full affect of the law is known and I predict there will be many modifications over the next several years.

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Minte

Nothing apparent about it. I can see the present and hedge against the future.

Prices haven't gone down. What makes you believe that people that can't afford insurance today will be able to afford it tomorrow?

If you or anyone can answer that question I will concede that my logic is flawed and that Obamacare will be a great thing for the US.

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theking

It will be based upon income...so those that can't afford to pay the total cost of insurance will be subsidized by the government...so it will be the government that determines what you can afford to pay...just as basically every government social program is based upon income.

That should answer your question.

BTW...there are millions of people that can actually afford insurance that choose not to.

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Vendzilla

As usually, you're full of shit! BTW, I had a typo, it's 650 million

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/...fare-benefits/

http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/17/re...grant-parents/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...alien-parents/

http://antonovich.com/welfare-costs-...june-and-july/

http://www.examiner.com/article/anch...lion-last-year

__________________
Carbon is not the problem, it makes up 0.041% of our atmosphere , 95% of that is from Volcanos and decomposing plants and stuff. So people in the US are responsible for 13% of the carbon in the atmosphere which 95% is not from Humans, like cars and trucks and stuff and they want to spend trillions to fix it while Solar Panel plants are powered by coal plants
think about that

adendreams

Hey aren't you the big time millionaire guy with the Lambos and Ferrari's (apologies if I'm mistaken) - the value of one of your cars could supply many families with health insurance for their entire lifetimes - so sorry if your opinion that Obamacare should be trashed (millions of poor people and young people thrown off health care) is a little hard to take seriously.

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Robbie

Guys as I have said over and over and over...
ObamaCare is NOT about "Healthcare". It's all about forcing people to buy health insurance.

Actually doing something about the COST of healthcare was never considered.

It is a documented fact that the first thing done was a meeting with Big Pharma and the big corporations that own hospitals to assure them that NOTHING would be done about them price gouging us.

It does not cost $50 for a paper Dixie cup. It does NOT cost $150 for a bag of saline to drip into your IV.
The whole system is a scam from top to bottom.

That is what should have been addressed.

But it was not, for the same reason that "single payer" was not done when Obama COULD have done it with a Dem controlled House and Senate the first two years:
It would have made health insurance OBSOLETE.

No fucking way that was gonna happen. And that's why the insurance companies flooded Washington D.C. with money.
Same as Big Pharma making sure that they can keep charging 4 and 5 times more for medications in the U.S.

That is my problem with ObamaCare (and of course the govt. FORCING people to buy something just because they are alive and breathing)...I could care less that Obama is black (I voted for him ONCE), I could care less what his party affiliation is...none of that matters.

What matters is that Big Insurance, Big Pharma, and the Big Medical Corp. are getting richer and richer and the govt. is gonna get bigger and bigger...and Obama and Congress gave themselves subsidies to pay for THEIR healthcare on top of ObamaCare.

Can ANYBODY on here tell me why they would do that?

If ObamaCare is so great...then why do they get taxpayer funded subsidies for it and WE don't?

If you guys can't see that the ruling class is once again pulling off another great scam on the backs of the taxpayer...then don't ask why you are where you are in life.

You're just too blind to see.

__________________
-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

Minte

The fact that I am in business is exactly the reason my opinion is worth something.
Obamacare doesn't affect me at all. It affects the people who work in the factories.

I will still have my Lambo's and lifestyle. I will still pay 70% of the premium cost for health insurance for those that sign up to our group program. And I already know that less people will sign up this year because of the 14% increase in the premium.

And I've already said, I could drop the percentage the company pays to 50% and more will drop it.

No matter how it plays out, I win. Do you understand that?
The working men and women lose. Either they dig deeper to pay the copay's and the 30% or they get a fine at the end of the year.

Theking says the government decides at who pays how much.. and that the government will subsidize the program. That's not going to happen anytime soon. The government owes $17trillion dollars. How many countries are still out there that will lend the US another trillion a year, when we struggle to even pay the interest on the debt?

__________________
You might not be as anonymous as you think you are.

theking

It is going to happen in my state October 1st. Using the calculator provided for my state:

A family of 4 with a household income of $32,000 the government will subsidize approximately 86% of cost of insurance and the policy holder will pay approximately $85.00 per month.

A single person with a household income of $32,000 the government will subsidize approximately 17% of cost of insurance and the policy holder will pay approximately $237 per month.

__________________
When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!

FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.html

theking

Yes...I can tell you..."because they can". I think you enjoy beating a dead horse. I can see and I think that any one with an average IQ can see.

__________________
When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!

FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.html