Rochard

Zimmerman didn't have a lot of blood on him. He had a fat lip and a swollen nose. Two cuts on his head.

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_Richard_

in relation to what martin had..

Rochard

This is what not I saw on TV today. What I saw was the prosecution speaking, playing a fifteen or twenty second clip, and then ripping it apart.

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Rochard

Zimmerman had a fat lip. He got punched and then fell. They might have wrestled a bit. But at no time was Zimmerman in "grave danger" nor did he have "great bodily harm".

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Rochard

You mean a "respected community member" who was charged with assaulting a police officer, had a restraining order against him, who was forced to take anger management classes, who trained at a martial arts gym, and who was turned down when he applied to be a police officer...

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_Richard_

point is.. zimmerman was covered in blood

blood that couldn't be found, anywhere, on martin.

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Of course it is, in your world the sky is purple and skittles grow on branches so that anyone can merrily go about their life picking and eating the little fruit tasting explosions of deliciousness whilst it rains ice tea.

If you had actually paid attention to any of the FACTS in the case instead of trolling you'd realize that 99.99% of the responses by people other than you in this entire thread are giving opinions based on fact, not delusional episodes conjured up in the mind of some nutjob (I mean you, in case you couldn't tell).

Rochard

There is a lot of truth to this really. Even with the best intentions stories will change from time to time, and even more so under traumatic events. But this is why the police question people directly after the event, and not days or weeks.

This is why a murder suspect doesn't take the stand - he will be tripped up by his story, no matter how honest he is about it.

But now if we admit the basic truth that stories can change over even short periods of time, this can all into question all testimony ever given. Should we accept the first account as the only account that matters?

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Oh my god, you just broke the case...

He beat his own head on the pavement, quick, call the press, we need a retrial ASAP, the press, prosecutors, judge, and even Zimmerman himself got it all wrong... BRILLIANT detective work, you should get a medal for this!

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No.

We should only accept Richards version of events, case closed, period.

AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

Do you understand why I raised the specific questions that I did? Look at where Zimmerman says the fight took place and ended, and then look at where Trayvon Martin was killed at, and in particular the proximity to the cement he was supposedly bashing Zimmerman's head on. Pretty glaring errors in Zimmerman's taped testimony, right?

Zimmerman's video statement appears in contradiction to the facts, and it seems to go directly to Zimmerman's credibility, as the only surviving eyewitness (and one with a heavy vested interest to lie in order to keep himself from a life sentence if convicted). Zimmerman was either wrong or lying. It truly was a good thing for Zimmerman that he didn't try to testify (I doubt that he was ever going to).

BTW, I thought it was pretty odd that Zimmerman says Trayvon Martin called him "Homie" (I thought that term was generally reserved for friends), and then Zimmerman is the only person that heard Trayvon Martin supposedly scream "You're gonna die tonight!", right before Zimmerman shot Martin.

Did anyone hear that "scream" before the gunshot on the 911 audios (or at anytime)?

What a convenient thing for a person to say that has just lethally shot someone in the chest.

Or maybe Zimmerman is the one that said "You're gonna die tonight" to Martin, and therefore included it in his statement, in case anyone else overheard him, so he could claim it was Martin rather than himself that yelled. And when Martin punched Zimmerman in self-defense, Zimmerman fatally shot Martin.

More likely though, Zimmerman knew that such a statement (even if false) would bolster his claim of self-defense for killing the unarmed Trayvon Martin, whom Zimmerman had been aggressively pursuing for several minutes (and remember Zimmerman was not on Neighborhood Watch duty that night).

As for Zimmerman's injuries, I can see where he clearly took a fist in the nose, and I'm guessing that he smacked his head on the pavement when he hit the ground, causing the two small cuts to the back of GZ's head (which required no stitches).

I'm not seeing a repeated violent smashing of a skull on pavement, and where Trayvon Martin's body lay dead, there is no pavement for several feet.



From my minimal review of the case, I would say a 2nd Degree conviction is unlikely, however Manslaughter in this case seems a very real possibility, then again, it could go either way.

If Zimmerman walks, he walks, although I imagine that a Civil lawsuit is coming up no matter what the Jury decides in the current Criminal case. I doubt that Zimmerman will fair well in a civil trial.

It's also pretty likely that the losing side will appeal, whomever that is.

Either way, to me it was an avoidable situation turned fatal, and Trayvon Martin is still dead.



I don't believe that the Jurors will be swayed much by pubic opinion in making their decision. I presume you know that they have been sequestered since the trial began.



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Rochard

I found the video I watched today... Amazing how quick this shit goes up on Youtube.



start in at 17:20
"And when I walked back towards him I saw him coming at me. "

I thought Zimmerman had said that Martin was hiding in the bushes. So Zimmerman wasn't jumped at all, he saw Martin walking and Zimmerman walked towards him.

I have other questions too now...

Why was Zimmerman's jacket undamaged? If Zimmerman had his head "pounded on the pavement" wouldn't there be some scratches on the jacket?



If Martin was holding his hand over Zimmerman's mouth and his other hand over his nose, how did Martin grab his gun?

Why does Zimmerman have no defensive wounds at all?

If Zimmerman's mouth was "full of blood" and he was having his head "pounded on the pavement" how did he pull out his firearm that was behind him?

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Bryan G

So do you. Did he or did he not follow him that night? Had he backed away and not tried to be a hero we would not be having this conversation.

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Rochard

Wait, the best one... Is the street address?

Why did Zimmerman need to get out of his car to see the street address? How can there only be three streets, he's on the neighborhood watch, and he can't remember all three streets?

Why did he need the street address in the first place? Zimmerman was waiting for the police - Couldn't he have just pointed?

Why did Zimmerman have to walk through the apartment complex to get the street address, when Martin was behind him?

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AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

Exactly! That one made me go hmmm too.

Martin and Zimmerman were practically neighbors:



Seems like he probably thought that he had his prey trapped.



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tony286

Yep makes you think maybe George is telling a story.

Rochard

None of Zimmerman's story makes sense at all.

I think Zimmerman stalked the kid for seventeen minutes, Martin ran, Zimmerman confronted him, had his firearm out, Martin popped and Zimmerman fell, Martin jump on top of him, and Zimmerman shot him.

How could Zimmerman pull out his hand gun if it was behind him while he was getting beaten into the pavement with his mouth full of blood?

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TheSquealer

I dont know really how police investigators do this. What always surprises me is seeing a witnesses account torn apart, particularly in a high stress event.

Here is something I deal with 5 days a week usually. 4 guys in a racquetball court. One guy serves. There is an intense volley for 10-20 seconds. The ball dies. Everyone stops. Everyone then looks at each other.... wondering.... who served, what the score is, who got the point etc. Basically, everyone's short term memory was wiped out completely to the point that 4 grown, professional adults have a hard time reconstructing what happened only 40 seconds before. Basically, your brain is focused on a fight or flight response and "what happened" isn't an important detail. In a neurological sense, its very similar to date rape drugs, I believe.

This is also true of fighting. Anyone that's done any amount of fighting knows very well that you will have almost no meaningful recollection of what happened apart from whatever the initial event is. Then if you start asking people around, you get conflicting stories. In that time, your brain is slowly remembering bits and pieces and filling in the rest with imagined content as your brain does. What is left in the end is a reconstruction of a reconstruction of a reconstruction of a reconstruction of a poorly recalled event.

Ultimately a memory is usually little more than the lie you've been telling yourself and it continues to evolve and change with time.

Anyone in intelligence will tell you right away as well that human intelligence is the most unreliable form of intelligence.

I don't know to what extent investigators rely on the account of the person in the event itself. Zimmerman did 3 interviews and the purpose of that is to keep getting more details as they are recalled before the whole memory is corrupted. A comment was made during the trial that his statement went from 4 pages, to 20, to 50.

I don't really know what the answer is to this in the legal system. I am just often blown away when someone is using the statements of a women that just shot her husband in self defense after being beaten and raped as evidence against her or pointing out inconsistencies when its literally impossible for the brain to recall anything from such an event with any real and accurate detail, and even when trauma induced amnesia directly following the event is very common and normal. It's normal in a fist fight. Its perfectly normal in 30 seconds of racquetball for 4 people in the 800 sq ft room to have no clue what just happened.

My understanding is that investigators try use any and all accounts to build a composite of events when they are trying to solve a crime... as no single account is very reliable. I have no clue why a prosecutor can take a single account by someone who faced extreme stress or trauma, before, during and after the event and tear it apart as if there will be no inconsistencies and then use those inconsistencies as evidence of guilt.

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AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

I'm sorry, who in your racquetball 4-some was shot in the chest and killed?

I've heard of bloody and broken noses on the racquetball court (usually accidental), but not shootings. Thug life? Details of something like that, I feel like I would recall.

I used to spar a little when I was younger (my Dad was a serious boxer), and I could recall my rounds blow by blow, even when I got my ass kicked (although the few times I momentarily blacked out were pretty fuzzy from when the lights went out until I woke up on my back with lights in my face). What I didn't remember, my Dad did.

Meanwhile, back at the trial:





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Rochard

22 pages and we finally agree on something.

It's also true with car accidents. You can have six people see the same exact accident from six different angles, and come out with four or five different versions of what happened.

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SuckOnThis

I think that's just about what happened.

TheSquealer

Think about this Rochard. What has the prosecution proven? What is the prosecutions version of events? What has the prosecution said happened exactly and how have they proven it? The prosecution is attacking Zimmermans version of events. Thats fine. Perfect. Thats what they should be doing.

However...

What is the prosecutions version of events? When can all agree Zimmerman murdered a kid. Fine. Has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I am talking about the law and proving a Murder 2 charge. The prosecution has not even offered a version of what happened and as such, has not proven that version beyond a reasonable doubt. Zimmerman can lie about everything. He might have not told a single word of truth. The burden of proof is on the Prosecution to prove every element of the case.

Where has anyone seen a murder trial where the prosecution did not walk everyone through THEIR FULL AND COMPLETE version of what happened. They haven't done that. They've tried to call into question all of what Zimmerman said, did etc. However, they have not proven what happened. What happened meaning a very detailed account from start to finish, without holes in it from the first 911 call to the time police arrived. The prosecution has not proven that Martin didn't walk up to Zimmerman and punch him in the face.

Everyone can disagree all day long with Zimmermans story, his account and so on. But everyone seems to keep forgetting that the Prosecution has to prove not only that Zimmermans account is wrong, but they have to prove their own version of events beyond a reasonable doubt.

The prosecution even gave two possibilities of how Martin was shot. This is an example of why I am interested in the legal side. Just giving two different possibilities of how Zimmerman shot Martin means that there is reason to doubt either. Two versions means there's a reasonable doubt as to whether either happened. That's a problem for the prosecution who is supposed to have a theory and defend it, leaving no doubt whatsoever.

We all understand someone got shot and its horrible and personally, i'm 100% ok with Zimmerman getting set on fire in his cell tonight.

I'm not interested in Zimmerman.
I'm not interested in Martin.
I'm not interested in retarded race baiting.
I'm not interested in justifiable homicide and gun laws or anything else.

What interests me is the criminal justice system and the fact that a trial was forced by politicians after investigators found no reason to charge Zimmerman, that Obama had to take a swipe at it as President of the United States, affecting the jury pool, that the media (NBC/CNN?) was playing a doctored 911 call, that all media outlets were showing a pic of Zimmerman in a orange jumpsuit looking like a thug along side a pic of a 12 yr old Martin and so on and so on and then a prosecutor showed up with almost nothing. His strongest evidence is the non emergency call where he basically has to use that to show Zimmerman as a vicious murderer and the fact is that Zimmerman is guiding police to his location, his voice and demeanor the whole time is very calm and he almost sounds like someone too lazy to care about anything. He doesn't sound like a killer. HE was there to do a job. He was doing his job. Clearly everyone misunderstood each other. It ended horribly. But the prosecution has to use those tapes to make him sound like a killer because there is nothing else. Just the fact that the prosecution asked for 3rd degree murder and child abuse is bizarre.

The whole thing is insanely bizarre.... and no doubt tragic. Tragedy happens all day, every day, all over the world. A Chinese girl got thrown out of a Boeing 777 and then was ran over by a rescue vehicle. Thats what life is. There doesn't have to be a good guy and a bad guy. There doesn't have to be an attacker and a victim. There doesn't have to be two lives destroyed because one life was destroyed. It's certainly not reasonable in a country that loves its rhetoric about justice to hold a politically motivated murder trial, fire a police chief and end his career and destroy someones life based on very shaky evidence and no real theory as to what happened. When the closing arguments are about skittles and quoting Martin Luther King... not reminding everyone of the exact sequence of events, how that theory and every element of the charge were proven beyond a reasonable doubt... that should be a red flag to anyone who believes in freedom or justice.

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Rochard

xholly

baddog

I presented the original audio, not today's arguments because as I said earlier, opening statements and closing arguments ARE NOT EVIDENCE and shall not be interpreted as such. For this reason, I did not spend 3 hours spellbound as I had other things to do. I did however, listen to a vast majority of the testimony (aka: the evidence).

And this is when your late decision to start following the trial begins rearing its ugly head. You have partial stories.

See, the problem is you already said you were not following the trial; I do not really have the time or inclination to bring you up to speed. Besides, I know it would not do me, you or the jury any good if I did.

I have lived here since 1985 . . . I would have to guess on the street names in my own neighborhood. I have friends I have known for years; been to their homes 100 times and I could not tell you their address to save my life. The cops asked for an address and he did not know it . . . not that hard to believe.

Rochard

I could care less about Martin, Zimmerman, gun control, or race. When debating such topics you have to remove certain subjects - like race. Let's say both Zimmerman and Martin were white, what do you get? You get MY TEENAGER wearing a hoodie on her way to her friend's house taking a shortcut between houses and getting shot dead because someone thought my kid looked suspicious and became judge, jury, and executioner... It's just not acceptable to me.

Then you factor in his story just doesn't add up. From the very first pictures of Zimmerman and his bloody lip it didn't add up. None of it adds up - why did an armed man get out of a car and pursue a suspect? He was hit twenty-five time and only got a bloody zip and two cuts on the back of his head? Come on.... Didn't know one of three streets in his complex? Hell, it was the biggest street in the complex, and Zimmerman passed it every day when he left the complex - bullshit.

Then the gun... how did Zimmerman, with his mouth full of blood and being beat silly, reach BEHIND him to pull out his firearm?

Why did Zimmerman say he walked towards Martin, then 24 hours later say Martin jumped out of the bushes?

This wasn't self defense at all. He gunned down an innocent teen.

At the very least he's guilty of manslaughter with additional firearm charges.

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baddog

Rochard - just admit it is your opinion, not based in fact; we have come to terms with it.

TheSquealer

I wasn't commenting on the case at all. I would hope it would be pretty obvious however, that the effects of memory loss under severe stress would be increased in a fight. So i'm not sure how you think you're odd rhetoric which is largely unrelated to my point makes any sense.

Clearly you have no idea what I was talking about at all. Anyone that has been in a few fights knows perfectly well that you typically remember very little about what occurred and you have to ask others.

When you are in fight or flight mode, your brains normal trick of deleting useless information is heightened, Memories are useless. Remembering is useless as it pertains to survival in that moment. Storing information under those circumstances in not useful, your brain function speeds up dramatically and all it is concerned with is getting out of the situation which becomes its only focus.

Memory is a rather complex thing as is the sympathetic nervous system and i'm too lazy to fact check and write a full explanation on the brains impaired ability to store and then recall information under stress, stress related amnesia as well as the diminished cognitive function in the moment. Suggesting it doesn't happen is absurd.

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Rochard

ThunderBalls

Just curious, is it more you can relate to '"those assholes always getting away" or are you pissed about being called a cracker that pulls you towards being so infatuated with Zimmerman?

Rochard

You keep talking about "fact" and saying I don't look at the evidence and that I am not watching the trial. I'm posting photos and videos that are evidence, using police reports to compile facts and time lines, and I'm watching more of the trial than not.

I post a statement from today's trial where Zimmerman himself said he walked up to Martin, and your only defense is "it's not evidence because it's part of the closing". I am pretty confident that is part of the evidence, and no matter because the jury just heard Zimmerman's voice say he approached Martin.

NONE of the "facts" from ZIMMERMAN'S DEFENSE add up. None of them. Not one. You accept Zimmerman's story as "fact". But it's not fact at all; It's Zimmerman's defense.

Zimmerman spent seventeen minutes tracking and stalking a seventeen year old boy and then shot and killed him.

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Well then, you would be wrong.

ANYTHING the jury hears during closing arguments IS NOT considered evidence, period.

If the jury takes anything said during either sides closing argument into consideration as evidence then it will be a mis-trial and the juror or jurors will be held in contempt of court.

Again, in case you missed it the first time ANYTHING THEY HEAR during both sides closing arguments IS NOT evidence that they can use to base their verdict on.

Rochard

I could agree with that.

However, if you can't trust anything Zimmerman says because of "memory loss under severe stress" then anything he said can considered suspect.

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Mutt

My knowledge of this case mostly comes from this thread, haven't watched the trial.

This is a 'he said, he would have said if he were alive' case it seems, none of the evidence strongly proves or disproves Zimmerman's story and his story is all there really is.

BUT ..... that first 9-1-1 call with the cries for help in the background, if that was Martin's voice it is compelling and damning evidence against Zimmerman's story. Martin's mother identified the voice crying for help as her son's. Those cries came well before the fatal gun shot and they're pretty loud. You'd think with technology there'd be a way to determine whose voice that likely was. What was the testimony like regarding the identification of whose voice that was calling for help?

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baddog

No, I am a fan of law; I used to work in a law office and was a paralegal. Before Nancy Grace became a star I used to love watching Court TV.

And I was probably called a cracker before you were born. A cop used it to describe me; I heard him say it, I looked around and realized I was the closest thing to a cracker in the vicinity. This was 1979.

baddog

Like I said above, I did not sit and watch the entire closing argument; the original tape is online, post a link to the one that the Prosecution kept starting and stopping if it is not one I posted. Please.

Mutt

"In the last pre-trial hearing, Judge Debra Nelson ruled that technology used to identify voices heard on the 911 calls weren't valid and would not be allowed in court. Witnesses for both sides of the case have testified regarding whose voice they think is heard on that call."

that sucks, surely one of the media outlets has hired a professional expert with that technology to get their opinion - may not be admissable in court but in the court of public opinion it is.

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Mutt,

There actually wasn't any evidence allowed for that, the reason being, the guy who did the 'analysis' didn't actually have enough data from the recording to analyze it correctly so instead, what he did was 'loop' the segment he had several times to make the correct length of audio.

Both sides of this case agreed that wasn't 'legit' so his evidence was not admissible in court because he basically fucked the evidence up.

That is also the reason why all the court heard was testimony from both parents saying that it was 'his' voice that was screaming on the audio tape.

The interesting thing about that testimony though, is that initially his (Martins) father told the cops that he didn't know who's voice it was screaming out for help yet, miraculously, during his day of testimony he recanted that saying that he 'just heard my son die'.

When asked about this, he told the court that the recording of him saying it wasn't his son was wrong, despite it being his voice on the tape and being in full agreement it was his voice on the tape at the start of his testimony.

Both side I honestly feel in this case are making shit up as they go along to 'win' for their side, we will never know what really happened that night, it could be that Zimmerman did profile, stalk and kill the little black kid, it could be that everything Zimmerman is saying is truthful, how he was sucker punched first, had his head beaten on the ground, the thug who was attacking him went for his gun and Zimmerman defended his life after being told that was the night he was' going to die' by Treyvon.

We will never know, all we will know is that 2 families have been changed forever because of the events on that night, one of them is currently around $1m better off financially because of it and has a registered trademark granted on the name of Treyvon Martin. The other currently has a family member on trial for 2nd degree murder.

Mutt

well a bunch of voice identification experts i see have done analysis of that call for media outlets and some say it's not Zimmerman and conclude it's Martin's and another expert opined that BOTH Martin and Zimmerman cried for help.

If Trayvon Martin actually was crying for help, to me it changes things dramatically.

The witnesses regarding voice identification are all worthless, as a jury member i'd totally ignore them all.

That technology has been used in trials - don't know why this judge won't allow it in, the defense would have ample opportunity to bring in critics of the technology.

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Mutt

(CBS) SANFORD, Fla. - The voice heard calling for help on a 911 call just before Trayvon Martin was fatally shot was not that of George Zimmerman, two forensic voice identification experts told MSNBC on Sunday.

Photos: Trayvon Martin

"The tests concluded that it's not the voice of Mr. Zimmerman," Tom Owen, of Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence said.

If those cries for help were Trayvon Martin's I nor anybody else should accept Zimmerman acted in self defense.

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baddog

They are experts for cash; they will say what you want to hear.

Mutt

well here's the reason the judge didn't allow it to be used.

(CNN) -- Two days before George Zimmerman goes on trial, voice recognition experts testified it is not possible to positively identify whose screams are heard in the background of the 911 calls made the night Trayvon Martin was shot.

Florida Judge Debra Nelson will continue the hearing on the admissibility of the experts' testimony at a later date. Jury selection begins Monday.

A third audio expert was unable to testify Saturday because he was stuck on a plane.

The defense argues the state's audio experts are using unproven science to determine who is heard screaming and they shouldn't be allowed to testify. Nelson wanted to hear about the technology used for voice analysis.

Trayvon Martin shooting Fast Facts

Forensic audio expert Dr. Peter French, who testified via teleconference from the United Kingdom, described research involving the recording of stressed cries versus normal voice samples.

In the case of the 911 calls, French said that the poor quality of the recorded voices means that none of the processes available can provide any useful information about the identity of the screaming person.

"I've never come across a case in the 30 years of my career where anybody has attempted to compare screaming with normal voices," French said.

French also said in this case the recording "isn't even remotely suitable for speaker comparison."

George Doddington, an electrical engineer who works as an adviser with the National Security Agency, testified Saturday that his conclusion about the 911 call was similar to Dr. French's: that due to the quality of the data, it is not going to provide any viable source for making an identity decision.

Doddington said evaluating one second of speech to reach a conclusion is "ridiculous."

"The less you have, the worse the performance," he said.

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tony286

Also the moment the gun goes off the cries stop like a switch turned them off.

Rochard

I did: https://gfy.com/showpost.php?p=19713422&postcount=1112

Start at 17:20.

Zimmerman says "I walked towards him". So much for Martin "jumping out of the bushes" and then "surprising him".

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Rochard

This is something I don't understand about our legal system.

I remember watching the forensic ME, who discussed his qualifications for two hours. He was clearly over qualified and the longer he sat there on the stand the more money he was paid. He said he was charging some $200 an hour or something like that. And while I listened to him ramble on... I started to wonder how many other medical examiners they talked to before settling on him. The defense interviewed ten or twenty medical examiners with similar qualifications, and they picked the one that saw the things the way the defense wanted AND looked presentable in court. But wouldn't this be a biased opinion? He is an expert, but an expert on the payroll of the defense, and they most likely had to speak to a dozen candidates and it's possible that not all candidates agreed with the defense's version of what happened.

Doesn't this make everything this "expert" says suspect?

Why doesn't the court hire an expert, split the costs between both sides, and no one gets to speak to him (her) before they testify. This way we know this is an expert that has been hand selected and isn't working for either one side.

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baddog

Please read MY REQUEST again: the original tape is online, post a link to the one that the Prosecution kept starting and stopping if it is not one I posted. Please.

In other words, I do not want the stop and go version with the Prosecutor inserting his commentary. Post the original.

baddog

Yes 5678

PornoMonster

I have Always wondered this myself.
An attorney friend told me the reason the court doesn't hire a third party is BOTH sides choose what expert they use, so it equals out... lol That each expert knows which side they are being paid by.

A third person would confuse the jury even more.

He had several other reasons, but I don't remember them this was back in 1994 ----

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TheSquealer

The court is impartial. The court does not appoint witnesses. That would not be impartiality.

Each side calls their own witnesses and each side has the opportunity to tear those witnesses apart. Thats about as fair as it can be.

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Rochard

Rochard

I don't have original. I didn't know about the audio recording until the closing arguments. I spent enough time trying to track this down and locate exactly where the statement is; I am not about to do it again because you don't like the stop and go version.

Zimmerman has contradicted his version of the story - in one he "walked towards Martin" and in the other Martin "jumped out of the bushes and surprised him".

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Rochard

But if you have two "expert witnesses" who claim the evidence say different things... They just confused everyone.

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“The choice is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal and crazy.”
- Sarah Huckabee Sanders

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dyna mo

i was reading in an article, i think, about the woman who shot herself in the leg claiming someone stole her baby or something and the invesstigators these days seem to think a suspect is generally telling the truth if their story does change. apparently the thinking is that if the suspect has a rock solid recollection of what happened, that is pre-conceived.

i don't know, but that was the rationale.