Jay - SMASH

Climbing up the ladder

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NewNick

This is a strange thread.

Lots of people make this mistake with gfy, including the OP.

This is primarily a webmaster board, where lots of peeps make their living from being affiliates for paysites, or are/were part of the supply chain for that industry.

Said industry does not really exist anymore.

So when people come along who played a large part in the destruction of that industry they are going to be attacked.

Now even the OP says that sales are a lot harder to come by these days......................

OP is probably right about his recent sales and method of getting them, but this is an affiliate webmaster board, and the average affiliate does not have the means or resources to follow this model. So the OP does not come across as someone who is helping, rather as someone saying, I fucked up your living, I made a shit load of money doing it, now your model is destroyed I am making even more money.

Its exactly the same problem that anyone from Manwin has when they post here. Especially Nathan. It is the wrong message to the wrong people.

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Ruseful

ok, ok, I see my glaring mistake in my 1am response...

Total transactions per month are a little less than 15,000 obviously because of the 3 and 6 month memberships, but I think I have shown how I do not and have not had a deficit since hitting the black in 2011. The only reason I would do that is to be in a hurry to get where I know I can reach. But I can just about handle the growth we have been through and continue to see.

I entered this business as a tube guy, with very little experience of the web, let alone adult. Love or hate tubes, I think we did a great job with YouPorn. I then entered into the production and pay site side of the business. Simply because I knew that if you could produce what the users were looking for, then you could make bank. I had all the data to hand, and it was a no brainer to start pay sites. But again, I entered into a business that I had no experience of. I had never run a pay site but had helped a lot of the CP's that reached out to us. What keywords to use, what tags, what clips were seeing more success, what nieces were better etc etc

What I am trying to say is that my business model suits me. We have the best crews shooting and the best editors editing what the tube data tells me is the best content.

What I never professed to be an expert in is actually running pay sites. I tried with an aff manager and that didnt work out. I'd love my business to be 50% reliant on tubes, and 50% aff, as that will propel my revenues into orbit. I am offering a huge salary and insane commissions to that aff manager, so if you know of any, send them my way. We certainly have the tools for them to make bank and an ever growing network where the sites are created backed on freely available data.

Ruseful

Pretty much word for word that one of my superiors said to me last night.

Appreciate you spelling it out on this thread, and your words have been duly noted

Mark67

Climbing up the ladder

trevesty

It's pretty sad when people who've been doing this for years and years and have made more money in that time than most people will ever dream of will hate on an innovative, honest, open individual in that vertical's(broadly, of course) space.


I make it a point to be low key on here, but I also make it a point to be data-driven. I don't know the OP at all - we have some mutual friends - but don't know him. Having seen a lot of data myself... to the naysayers who are definitely just envious, you need to either step your game up and WORK, or keep complaining on GFY and really have nothing happen at all to your bottom line that's positive.

Edit/Disclaimer: I have no money invested into any cash programs right now nor am I on anyone's pay roll. For our industry at this moment in time for myself, I'm just an affiliate. Some of you have a decent argument from that angle, but.... step your game up. We are evolving as an industry... I assure you that complaining on GFY to some guy(OP) that you watch with envy at our respective shows will do you zero good financially. We have more surfers than ever - MAKE THAT SALE.


Or don't - I'll take your piece of the pie.

Diomed

All I have to say is..

These guys are fucking clever.

Regardless of wrong or right.

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Three.Thousand

I think the problem for many is the fact that you now are suppose to bend over and supply the same people that ruined the industry as it was, just to make money.

I got no problem with evolution, and pushing middle men out etc, its the moral aspect that probably rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

And of course OP is making sales, he has quality content, uses data properly (not many do) and reaches the audience of millions upon millions. Its like throwing shit on a wall....

Nathan

I was in Berlin at an exclusive startup / internet / VC meeting on thursday and it got me to thinking and actually to discuss with my brother about a few things... it kinda fits here so I thought I would share...

A lot of startups today take the internet and use it for something that already existed before but makes it easier, more efficient, and cheaper for the user of the service. If it works, it also makes it very hard for the 'old' model to compete against it. It means there is less money made overall in the vertical but it also means that the people that still make money are making a lot more than individual players did before. So the people that do the 'innovation' do not care, since they are very happy. It is the others, the old people in that market, that care, since they lose out.

For example the online ad space. The amount of money spent per ad by advertisers online, is a JOKE compared to TV. The total amount of money made by online TV services is also a joke compared to the rest of the TV/Hollywood sector. If the development would continue as it does right now, at some point, hollywood would not make enough money anymore to create content, which would result in online to break too.

But obviously this is not going to happen. Why is that? Because it never happened in the past. Sure, industries died, but its not because they were wanted but made no more money, it was because people were not interested in them anymore.

Innovation also always had the effect that the internet has had the past 10 years. Just think of the industrial revolution. I bet there were a TON of people pissed off at the new industrial companies building big factories, looking evil to them. But today, nobody cares much anymore. It was a necessary evil to growth of mankind.

I see the development of the adult industry similar. 'Free' is a typical thing online. It has shaped what online is and does. And it works. Why does it work? Because there are fewer companies today, that make a lot more money than the many more single companies did before. And I am talking profits, not revenue. Who in the end cares about revenue?

People might not like how it got to this point, but this is where we are. Haters existed always in every 'revolution', and the internet revolution will not be different. They also usually changed the way people thought about certain rules and laws or at least made certain laws develop into new iterations. I know why DMCA exists, and it makes sense to me. We will see how it gets changed in the years to come, but this is part of progress, and of course not everybody likes it, but we all have to live with it, so make the best out of it you can. That's how I see it.

BTW, I disagree with NewNick, this board is NOT an affiliate board, it is an industry board. There just are 10 or so people on this board that ARE affiliates that are VERY vocal when it comes to tube sites. And this thread shows it yet again, it is the same exact people complaining as always. But you also find quite a few people with positive remarks, and people not posting a lot at that.

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signupdamnit

Welcome back. This board (and all other boards) used to be filled with 90% affiliates. The piracy model pushed many of them out of the industry. As for being vocal for every one person complaining there are probably 100 others who agree but are afraid to talk for fear of repercussions. Not everyone complaining about the piracy (the issue isn't tubes, it's piracy) is an affiliate. There are many paysite owners and even talent who complain.

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Nathan

The only reason why this board was filled with 90% affiliates was because there were 50000 of them and only 500 program owners.

I can also guarantee that if there were 0 piracy on tube sites, the same people would complain about tube sites giving away too much free content. Heck, there are many already complaining about that today. Even in this thread.

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Jel

This. Stealing is what got the tubes where they are today, let's not pretend it was anything else. That said, emotions have to take a back seat when it comes to making decisions on how to move forward, but posting how feelings are now hurt because not everyone is emotionally detached from the theft that cost real people real money and a real income that provided for real employees and families, is a bit 'ugh'.

Drop the woe-is-me-my-feelings-are-hurt part, and stick to what you now say you realise is your reason for starting the thread - attempting to make amends for fucking over lots and lots of people by stealing. You won't be everyone's best friend all of a sudden, but you won't look twice as bad by playing some kind of victim card

Jel

Don't chat shit you cunt

signupdamnit

Well of course they complain when it costs them money or is a bad deal for them. People have every right to complain and to speak just as you do.

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ReggieDurango

This thread might get viewed a bit more than anyone thought!

Jel

'innovation'. lmfao. Probably believes that shit too

Nathan

Never said they are not allowed to complain. I replied to your point that nobody cares about the tubes, just the piracy. Now you say thats not the case after all... make up your mind.

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signupdamnit

The ruining of the industry by these people bothers me but for Ruseful I just find his claims to be very fantastical. It's hard for me to believe that someone is making $1 per 1,000 raw video views on a tube such as youporn. His content is obviously of great quality but I find the figures hard to believe in 2013.

https://gfy.com/showpost.php?p=18888055&postcount=260

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Nathan

Most here will never believe numbers in this industry unless they do them themselves. But this is what distinguishes people.

As I kept saying, if it were impossible to make good money with paysites on tube sites, why would we own both tube sites and paysites? That makes no sense. Simple logic dictates that.

Of course, then the claims come that we have some magic way of keeping our content off of tubes, since we own them. But we simply use services and in house people like JT does too. As I have said time and time again, just look at Google's transparency report. We are one of the top 3 companies removing links to our content from Google via DMCA.

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signupdamnit

It depends on what we are speaking about. Most of the people complaining about tubes are complaining about piracy (not tubes themselves). But many also have issues with the devaluation of content due to the proliferation of long videos (even legitimate) on tubes. In one case it's basically theft. In the other it's arguably just stupidity and ignorance. There is a difference there with the type of criticism. Sometimes they overlap.

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HushMoney

So if someone working at Pornhub sees one of your full length videos uploaded by an outside "user", they take them down. Is that what you're saying?

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Nathan

Uhm, no.. where did I say that?

If someone working at brazzers sees a brazzers video on pornhub that should not be there, they contact our in-house DMCA guy who then sends a DMCA notice to pornhub.

I do not fully follow where you got the above from though, I specifically posted that there is no 'magic' and that we use DMCA people internal and external like anyone else can and should. Its the law. I can not change it.

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signupdamnit

Well for me it's just that I look around and I see that your company, Manwin, is the #1 in the industry yet I see you basically went to jail for not paying your taxes and I hear rumors that you guys are having trouble paying your debts to Playboy. Then I look around at the state of the industry and I am saddened by what I see. It seems so many are struggling.

There seems to be quite the disconnect between what is claimed and that which is reality. I can believe what I see and experience along with the experiences of the majority. Or I can believe what a handful of people with a vested interest are telling me to believe. I tried to explore this a bit here https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1063910

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HushMoney

The "in house" part.

So you DMCA yourself? It's all owned by you.

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Three.Thousand

I couldn't care less if you all decided to give away your whole full product for free. What i care about is when someone other than me decide to give away my product for free.

Nathan

Just on a note, before you start running around claiming things you know nothing about, you should learn how some countries laws work. I am not going to further comment on your claim that I 'went to jail for not paying my taxes' ... which btw is not what you say specifically everywhere else, everywhere else you say MANWIN did not pay taxes, as if it were a fact. Here now suddenly you step back and say I did not pay taxes and somehow make it sound like I had no money to do so as an argument that the industry is not going good.. This makes no sense btw, since if that were the case (Manwin not making any money), there would not be taxes owed...

Your second comment is again very different than what you post everywhere else. You say here that you hear RUMORS that Manwin can not pay its debts to Playboy. Now, two things: 1) clearly you are one of those people spreading such a rumor since everywhere else you make it sound like a FACT, and 2) just because Mike South invents some 'news' does not make it true.

You are missing one important factor here btw. Most people on this planet, are not like JT. They do not want to share their knowledge. They keep it for themselves, they do not WANT you to know that they are doing good. This goes ESPECIALLY for this industry, because of the kind of people that have been working in it for such a long time....

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Nathan

Yes we send DMCA's to ourselves. And in house means we have in house staff that looks for our content on tubes, torrents, file lockers and such and gets it removed. Next to companies doing it for us.

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signupdamnit

I said "I see you basically went to jail for not paying your taxes" which isn't quite the same thing. That word basically is important. But when you get right down to it, yes, taxes weren't paid for one reason or another so the authorities acted. That seems accurate based on the information I have although it's an obvious simplification. As for you versus Manwin and who owes what I don't know. I'm not a German tax investigator. All I know is that you claim to be an owner of Manwin and what I've read in the news. Feel free to enlighten me.

You must be watching me very closely. You seem to remember my past words better than I do! I did say rumor this time. I was trying to give you some courtesy. Feel free to go into why they are false if you like.

Maybe.

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ReggieDurango

Nathan, may I ask why you picked this moment and this thread to come back to gfy?

Bman

Data? lol you could have figured that out having a TGP or MGP. or perhaps opening your eyes and looking at the various content that was out there.

It might be really easy to come here and pat yourself on the back but remember for the 5 guys that started the site and 40 or so guys you employ. YOU destroyed I would assume somewhere from 1,000 to 5,000 small business people that made a 100k a year. What you did wasnt smarter it was taking the low road basically a race to the bottom.

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L-Pink

You worked with thieves, which means you are also a thief. You now make money working with the same thieves. Congratulations you should be proud of being an asshole. I

.

Ruseful

But in the days of TGP's I was a dog breeder, The only porn I knew on the Internet was The Hun, and I visited it everyday as soon as the wife went out or to bed.

Diomed

Nathan,

you can talk all you want my mis-guided friend.

You got to where you are my profiting off work that was not yours. You stole. You participated in shady business tactics, and have shown poor ethics time and time again.

See.. Some people value their way of life more than money. They want to live an examined life, with a clean conscience. Your only lying to yourself in thinking you just ''seized the day'' by capitalizing on what others missed out on.

Life is not about money or success, there does exist a ''correct'' way. Your values are non-existent, your an opportunist and a very manipulative one at that. The reality you live in, is not real.

But alas.. There is still time to change. Start by accepting responsibility for every action you take, and the down stream of those actions.

Otherwise you will find yourself on the death bed with many regrets.

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Diomed

He wanted to capitalize on some of the points ruseful made, and take the opportunity to suck his own dick.. By trying to pass himself off as an innovator instead of a thief.

Its this example among others that make me feel positively great about where I am in life, and even better about where Nathan is.

Time keeps ticking..

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ReggieDurango

Haha! That's the best reply yet!

Ruseful

MassageRooms.com is #15 now if anyone's still interested lol

Robbie

Well, Ruseful can actually claim that he was amongst the guys who actually created the original tubes. So he can play the "innovation" (using stolen content to gain traffic) card.

Fabian, on the other hand...didn't innovate anything. He didn't start anything, he didn't brainstorm any ideas, nothing from the ground up.

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Robbie

Heh-heh...I think that ship sailed a while ago in this thread.

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The Porn Nerd

The problem some people have with JT (and, of course, Nathan/Fabian) is that of PERSPECTIVE.

From an affiliate's point of view tubes have killed their business model and greatly reduced their income; from JT's perspective he's simply maximizing the current traffic climate. (Nathan/Fabian I'll leave out of this.)

I don't know the OP but we have mutual friends, and everything I've ever heard about the guy is that he is AMAZINGLY nice and helpful. Having said that, JT (and a few others in this thread) are in a position few of us will ever reach simply because of the cost of repeated investments into his business. In other words, how many of us can afford $6000+ a DAY in shooting costs? very few.

JT: I'd be happy to discuss some paysite designs in exchange for some tube knowledge.

Now for the Good News regarding affiliates: HD "glamourous" porn will become dated once everyone has got their little iPads and HD monitors all set up....then AMATEURS (yes, amateurs, REAL PEOPLE) having sex will be huge again. All those glossy, highly made up Czech and Hungarian chicks (as smoking hot as they are) will become boring. "I wanna see REAL PEOPLE FUCK" will become the outcry...and then affiliates (those who are left) will be in play again as all those solo girl Blogs and amateur TGP submissions will mean something again. Just wait. 1-2 years....

THEN what? All these huge companies will have tons of overly-priced HD content laying around, gathering dust....

Cycles, cycles, cycles...

Finally, tubes themselves: The days are coming when laws will change, a new generation of outraged mothers will pressure politicians to DO SOMETHING about all this FREE PORN EVERYWHERE!!! Then things will change again....

Being one step ahead is great, if you can, but being one step "behind" can also be profitable.

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Ruseful

Will definitely take you up on that!! Where are you based? I am in Prague. My Skype name is shittingnora (long story, dont read anything into it lol)

signupdamnit

I don't think it's only affiliates who have been harmed. It's paysite owners as well. You said it yourself. Once you put up those 10 minute clips and submitted them over the course of a year your sales tanked. The difference is when the sponsor gives away the content or suffers from piracy both the sponsor and affiliate say lose 100 sales a day in total. But for the sponsor maybe they can get 5-10 sales a day from the increased exposure (still a net loss of 90 sales). For the most part the affiliate is shut out. We only lose as traffic is harder to get and conversions tank.

There is so much against the adult affiliate these days (especially the paysite affiliate) that it isn't anywhere near the same deal as in the past.

To be honest I have stopped putting up new paysite links and I don't put up sponsor content any longer. It's almost worthless. And to top it off most sponsors are now giving out 5-15 minute clips to the large tubes while in contrast the affiliate, if lucky, is getting six year old 30 second wmv clips. Then most sponsors are now treating their affiliates as if they are freeloading assholes. Then there is the math. Why send traffic to a sponsor converting at 1:4000 to 1:7000 when you can get 1 cent a click elsewhere? THIS is the legacy people like Fabian and JT built in this industry. They destroyed the paysite affiliate model and they have crippled the paysite model in general. They may be nice guys in real life but this is what they did to our industry and that is how it is.

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signupdamnit

I think the destruction is far worse. Look what happened to low to medium level domains. The market collapsed. Scripting has suffered. You now see many of these script licenses selling for 10 to 25% used of what they would cost new. Then talent has suffered too.

I would put it at about 10,000 to 20,000 people who have lost at least 30%+ of their income over it. Maybe more. Many of those people no longer come here to complain or speak out. They're gone. I'm sure some people have lost their homes, families, or even their lives. For many this was their only source of income. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a handful of suicides related to it. I doubt the shallow among us will ever understand this or acknowledge it. Instead they will call themselves innovators and visionaries.

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The Porn Nerd

After reading through this thread and thinking a LOT about the points made here, from both sides, here's where I stand:

When it comes to EXISTING content, affiliates and program owners with older SD content it is NOT in your best interest to submit 10+ videos to tube sites. Period.

IF SHOOTING NEW CONTENT: Then going about your business the way JT is describing (and proving) IS, short-term (1-3 years) the way to go. Tube surfers are differant from Blog readers or TGP visitors so how you market to them IS very differant. If you have the ability to shoot content with them in mind - and, again, very few of us have this ability - then you can maximize tube traffic the way JT does (and I do, to a smaller degree, since I rarely shoot my own content but instead work with "established" content).

I have a network of 32 paysites and some doing amazingly well with the tubes, others so-so, some tank altogether. Those that do the best are actually very similar to JT's sites (all HD, extremely unique content). The others that do so-so have older SD content but the Tours/site name/domain are unique enough to be branded well on tubes and make a few sales. The ones that tank are the ones with the most generic, played out content.

I don't have the resources to shoot multiple scenes a week so I tweak what I DO have control over: the paysite Tours, which is why my conversion ratios are so high and I am able to stay in business. If I DID film my own content I would shoot it like JT does....until the pendulum swung back the other way then I'd go old-school/hardcore amateur porn again.

Will reach out to you later. I'm in NYC tho I've been to Praha and have actually fucked and filmed some of the models on your websites. LOL

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dyna mo

could we go over what it means to "shoot for a tube site"?

I know it was mentioned earlier that it means to shoot an extended beginning, middle, and end, but that just makes it more unclear to me! maybe I missed the gist of it somewhere.

this:

The Porn Nerd

If you think about it, and watch a lot of these type of "glamourous porn" scenes they actually DO follow the old "sweet spot" of marketing, just with a twist.

They have long, slow openings - maybe 3,4 minutes - then the action finally starts for about 3-4 minutes. Then there's a slow ending or fade or the action just ends for another couple minutes, leaving the surfer wanting more.

Most porn just WHAM cuts to the action, bang-bang/fuck-fuck/splooge. So if you're marketing THAT kind of porn (which is most porn) then keep the clips to 3-5 minutes. If you're shooting slow, sensual and romantic porn shoot 3-4 minutes of "build-up", some action, then a soft landing.

Is that about right JT and others who do this? LOL

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signupdamnit

All I can say is that in another year I hope I will see you are a multi-millionaire from going where you seem to be going. I'm skeptical but I wish you luck with it.

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The Porn Nerd

Oh man from your lips (or keyboard) to God's ears.....LOL
IF that happens I will promise you this: it will NOT be because of a "tube-only" strategy.

I said this from the beginning and I reiterate it now: tubes "work" for some and for others do more harm than good. Regardless, in 2012 and beyond, tubes should be a part of your marketing strategy.*

*Unless you're purely an affiliate; submitting to tubes will not help you (generally).

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dyna mo

hey cool thanks, I hadn't looked at it from this angle, it sure makes sense though eh. do you thnk this applies to softcore as well?

The Porn Nerd

Shap would be better to answer that question, if he's still around/interested.

But I would suspect there comes a point where the surfer is turned on "enough" to want to see more and join but what that point is I don't know.

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wetvibes

Way to many complicated point of views here about submitting or not < 10 mins or full vids on the tubes. In fact, to see if JT is right or not about this is enough to take a look at the most popular paysites of the moment: x-art, passion-hd, orgasms.xxx, babes.com, joymii and so on - they all submit 6 min to full vids on tubes for free and the most important thing you get from this is brand exposure wich will let every surfer know that you exist and sell something.

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