Paul Markham

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Paul Markham

I high lighted the flaw.

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johnnyloadproductions

In regards to what Paul has to say...

The ship is sinking...

Some people stay in because like you mentioned in another thread some affiliates have been doing nothing else for 10-15 years, how do you fill that employment gap and what else do you do. Wherever I've been, adult is almost universally frowned upon, good bar talk but in most professional settings doesn't work. I know when people would ask what I did online I'd have to have a bogus mainstream front to cover any porn related ventures.

Most people can argue that you just need to work harder, well with so many hours in the day and with the ability to only give away so much free porn (there are traffic building ideas) but beyond selling porn for any amount of what it once was forget about it.

There aren't many of you that can afford to sit on their ass like you and reality eventually hits. Some of the makers of technology on here, though smart, lack true understanding of marketing or a true discernment for economics such as Paul.
I just wonder how lonely you may be on boards like this when the inevitable catches up to most people on here.

baryl

I think you underestimate how many people are willing to pay for quality over quantity. It's just a matter of finding their price point.

johnnyloadproductions

Free porn effects everyone.

I hear models doing boy/girl, bj, solo, and 300 stills for $400. These aren't ugly models either. It's not hard to do this anymore.

Free porn has effected the bottomline enough where producers scheme models to work for next to nothing. i.e. a gangbang for $200, taking a girl that doesn't have much and moving her around because you threaten to abandon her (in a state 2000 miles from home) if she doesn't keep producing scenes for free.

I know producers that got male actors (schmucks of the street) to pay $50-100 a piece for a gangbang for some teen girl. Don't ever do this as it can come back to haunt you (pandering charges I believe).

Konrad's business thrives on the free porn, How much can you give away with unlimited domain licenses, as much as you want!!!!!!!!!
Don't take that as an attack.

Raymor, you better start taking strongbox/throttlebox/clonebox more mainstream. As the cultural lag of awareness of diminished returns in porn becomes more commonplace in people many less producers will be there to buy. You've got time.
You were bitching the other day about making serious bucks, well the killing is over in porn.

marlboroack

Did someone say free?

johnnyloadproductions

If you read Paul's posts more closely instead of just trying to increase your post count, most producers (or aspiring ones) don't have the pockets to invest, learn, and extended patients to do something like that.

Having a community where you talk to people and produce movies, that's a possibility. I know a lot of niche message board communities that make ok money with a close niche bunch. But the paysite without accountant scrutiny and market savvy is no more.

I know a well known producer that shoots with all the agencies in LA, he gets the girls for their first scene (1/3 to 1/2 the girls) and he's still in the red after 2 years.
$150 for a male actor, $300 for model (includes agency fee) plus the dedicated server and his editor and webmaster.

The low margins have turned people into scumbags, partly because they can't help it.

I had a few webmasters contacting me because I know how to get a lot of proprietary software up and running without the licensing fees. Bothers me.

johnnyloadproductions

Thanks, I'll reconsider my perspective. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Paul Markham

Most here would never get a real job in marketing online or offline. They have the same chance as I would getting a real job as a photographer. Their field of experience is very limited to driving traffic to porn sites.

My marketing experience comes from years of selling, market stall, clothing shops, office furniture and porn offline, online direct and indirect. I've adapted and learned that you can't compare chickens and cows let alone apples and oranges. Selling off a market stall is totally different to selling the very same clothing to a shop. Because the buyers needs are totally different. AND that is selling is rule number one. Understand your buyers needs. With porn it's to rub one out. Then get back to watching the TV or similar.

The odds on him needing something else are low, very low. We only have to look at traffic conversion off a Tube and compare it to traffic conversions off a TGP to understand that. Giving him more porn to satisfy his need so you might stumble over someone who needs more. Isn't selling. Unless the girl on the check out at Walmart is selling.

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Paul Markham

http://wm.idolbucks.com/?nats=NTg5NjoxMjo0,0,0,0,0 do you own this site or just hoping to get a 5% referral fee?

Over estimating a buyers willingness to pay and sinking a lot of money into it, is a fast track to bankruptcy.

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signupdamnit

I think barring major law or industry wide changes (everyone unites and fights piracy ruthlessly) you're right. It's here to stay overall. That doesn't mean someone with exclusive content can't still police their content and keep it off the tubes and the lockers to keep profit up. Same with someone in a micro-niche. But over time, given the trends, eventually the well will run dry on pay site sales for everyone. It's just a matter of time.

It really bothers me to see some people talk of "adapting". If you mean do something other than $29.95 a month pay sites, sure, no problem. But if you're saying that others deserve this because they kept their ethics and decided against stealing other people's content then you're just a fucking scumbag. And there isn't any dancing around that-- You're a piece of shit.

pimpmaster9000

things will keep getting worse and worse for mediocre content producers and tubes or anybody who relies on the free model....

the main disadvantage of the free model is that everybody and their gold fish is doing it...nobody is selling porn everybody is selling cams and penis pills...it has become a race to give away better and longer clips for free

just like porn went to shit so will free porn for the very same reasons: greed

enjoy the tube bubble...its not going to last...

johnnyloadproductions

I'll compose an article on here that is 2000-3000 words 1-2 weeks from now in regards to filelockers and what people are doing that makes them so bad.

All filehosts give some incentives to upload content and you can do it in such a way to make a lot of money, I will explain this.
My reason is to stoke anger in several of you so you'll perhaps take action.
Filehosts probably can't get shut down but ruling something out so they can't pay incentives may be plausible.

Just like 3-5% of users consume 30+ percent (or more) of bandwidth. So are the people that pirate.

raymor

On a cash basis, most analysists estimate it became profitable with ContentID late 2010. Hurley and Chen wouls say it was profitable before the Google purchase and hat's why I agree. Something like $100 million was invested. The company was worth $1.8 billion when Google bought it. That sounds like a $1.7 billion profit to me. Yes, they were losing cash, but in exchange they owned online video, buying millions of users. A few million loyal users is valuable.

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Colmike9

This thread is depressing..

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signupdamnit

It's more complicated than that. Walmart couldn't afford to price every product at $1 either. Even if costs for each product were below $1 where they could do it there would still be an opportunity cost involved in doing so. Why sell something for $1 when you could sell just as many units before at $200 and still undercut the competition? You would be a fool to do that and only hurting yourself.

An overall declining$/impression (or $/visitor) does mean something overall in the industry. It indicates you are squeezing less and less out of each impression. Potential porn surfers are not infinite. It's unlikely tomorrow we will wake up and there will be 2 billion more people surfing for porn. At some point if the numbers get too bad there will be a point where even if you have 100% market share you will lose revenue and profit. It's even possible eventually in theory for you to no longer be able to make a profit at all. This occurs when you can no longer monetize the traffic beyond your fixed and variable costs (the shutdown point is reached).

What keeps many of those turning to the "free" model alive and thriving now I think is that they are stealing market share from others who haven't switched to it. Sure it works for you now but what's going to happen when you stop growing as there is no more market share which to easily take? The answer is you'll probably slowly starve no matter how big and bad you are.

raymor

Clonebox is going mainstream because mainstream has always paid 100X as much for the same service. Cloning dell.com is a hell of a lot more lucrative than cloning fuckmybutt.com. They'll want to have ten hours of meetings for every hour of productive work, but then they pay $2,000 / month for the exact same service that sells for $28 in adult. That's been true since at least 1997. So yes, off to mainstream I go.

Four thousand years after I leave, porn will still be making money. The ancient Romans bought porn and the Chinese protectorate of the US will buy porn hundreds of years from now. Most of the money may be in PornSense at that time, but as long as men jack off people will make money from it.


It's not 2002 any more, true. It's also not 1982 or 1902. Porn was profitable in 1982, 1902, and 1602. It'll be profitable in 3002. The business model DOES change about once every twenty years and most sites today are using the template we developed in 1997.

Paul Markham

The problem with producing exclusive content is it has to be a lot more than exclusive. It has to be great, unique and must have exclusive content. Otherwise the audience will get off on something else that hits the same buttons. This was the problem when online porn went the exclusive route.

It could only afford to go the cheap exclusive route and it all ended up the same.

This applies to crucifissio as well.

The cost of producing great, unique and must have exclusive content is less today than it ever was. Because of the lack of competition from the other avenues of selling porn. Yes you heard first from me. Offline shooters were paid a lot more than online shooters.

So we have a deluge of sites full of poor, cloned and don't have to buy exclusive content. And made up for it with the traffic model of giving it away to get sales.

How many sites could compete with offline DVD earnings or the earnings of magazine shooters? Ultimately it doesn't matter if it was crap, wrong, not what the online surfers wanted. It paid better. And arguing it didn't only goes to show the bad businessmen at the helm of some major companies.

Great porn will convert and attract great traffic better than poor porn. All you have to do is pay for it.

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Paul Markham

I might be wrong about Baryl so apologies now.

Many in this business and especially posting online have no concept or experience of budgeting, costings, overheads, fixed cost, etc. They work from home and besides a computer, few programs, bit of hosting. There's little else to spend. Maybe as much as 85% of the revenue is profit.

When you run a business with a studio, staff, equipment, models, autos, overheads. Or a site with merit, you understand that 85% of revenue goes to pay the bills. So when some talk about micro payments, they don't have the expense of buying a CMS, site design, decent hosting, staff, offices, accountants, lawyers, content , marketing to affiliates, paying affiliates.

They think cutting costs and increasing sales to the same level is the solution. Maybe they should take second mortgage, or borrow the money from the bank and try it. That is those who have a house to mortgage or a bank manager who won't laugh in their face.

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PR_Glen

so your saying the internet market for porn will get lower over the years?

no.. not even close to that..

if you have volume, you make money, there is no argument. There is no money, however, in wishing things would go back to the old ways. That doesn't pay at all. The market changes? You change. If you don't you get left behind.

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signupdamnit

No I did not say that. I said if your $/impression is decreasing and *you* can no longer grow or worse your traffic declines then you are going to be dead in the water and your profits will slowly wither away.

Volume is great but in the end you still need to be making a profit. You can't be operating at a loss and make it up on volume. Volume isn't everything.

The reasons *you* may not be able to grow include:

1. Reaching a plateau where realistically you cannot increase your market share further.
2. Competition from other firms in the industry.

At the same time while this occurs your traffic slowly becomes worth less. Falling cpm. This is inevitable since in the end someone has to pay for the traffic to be worth anything. The question is how low will $/impression go? You can't ignore ratios or cpm. They aren't meaningless. You only have the luxury of ignoring them for now.

DVTimes

bump.............................................. .........

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papill0n

who cares as long as you have traffic you can make money

you do have traffic dont you paul ?

papill0n

lol nobody gives a fuck about content producers or their fucking content

when will you realize that ?

you and the other useless producers are the problem not the solution

you have produced shit porn for decades and now look at you paul

you dont sell content. you dont have traffic. all you have moron is your cups of tea and lots of time to waste on gfy

MaDalton

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Tijuana_Tom

I hope when you all finally give up with porn and move into other industries you make those free also.

LAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWLLLLLSSSSSSS

papill0n

dont worry someone might. sure as fuck aint me though.

11 years in the biz fulltime and I think ive spent 50 bucks on content max

Colmike9

"Free porn" and "samples" are two completely different things.

Those that can't understand the difference make threads like this..

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Nicky

Ok let me argue about the ratios. It's more like $10 per 1k on clicked ad traffic and the click ratio is probably 1-20 not 1-50 So we are talking ~$10k a day not 1200. This is from your example though, the largest tubes out there make waaay more than $10k a day....

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Colmike9

In all of these types of threads, no one mentions the fact that on the big tubes, submitted videos have banner ads for each one to the video's paysite, which many of them sell well and the tubes get 50-75ish% of all sales. They just assume that they make money from cpm ads only...

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jimmycooper

Much of WalMart's growth can be attributed to expansion. Both within the US and internationally. Mainly international over the past few years as US growth has slowed. Most porn companies are just consolidating the existing traffic sources right now while ignoring the new sources. That goes for you guys, Manwin, and pretty much all the big boys except for Vivid. It's no wonder they've lasted for over 25 years.

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SoulTaker

If everybody on gfy paid a dollar for every song listened on youtube, everybody would be bankrupt. You make no sense.

Just cause in the past people were too dumb to pay $100 a month (cross-sells anyone) subscriptions, doesn't make it right.

Tijuana_Tom

What the fuck are you trying to say?

Please never post again.

Tijuana_Tom

You don't see McDonalds giving the BURGERS away for free and relying on soda sales now do you?

NO MOTHER TRUCKER YOU DONT

BECAUSE SODA AINT WORTH SHIT

Tijuana_Tom

The internet should be free.. PSSSSSSSSShtt you been trolled by a selfish generation of broke self entitled parasites.

globofun

Paul for President 2012................

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DTK

The free porn model is here to stay? Where is that timeline pic when we need it?

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Tijuana_Tom

I've been noticing car brands giving out Free Maintenance lately tho..

But that's under strict rules and usually just for simple stuff like oil and minimal fluids..

They aren't replacing your brakes for free..

papill0n

its incredible isnt it

paul announces in 2012 the free porn model is here to stay!

no fucking shit sherlock

SoulTaker

I wonder why you think you're the greatest alive, responding to your own posts all the time as if you're actually talking to someone.

You're a dumbass for saying nothing should be free, that's all.

Changing is hard isn't it? You wish you could get by scamming users again with cross-sales, but no, you actually have to use your brain now to make money online. Too hard for some people obviously. Good luck with your life

AdultKing

One of the smartest posts in this thread.

raymor

As a former manager of a burger joint, I know that on our busiest and most profitable nights, yes we lost money on burgers. Tuesdays are half price burger nights at Sonic and we'd sell 2,500 sodas, costing 35¢, for $1.89 each.(A $30 box of coke syrup makes a hundred 32 oz sodas). That's a 540% markup. Soda absolutely IS a huge profit center for burger joints. An 89¢ burger loses money in order to sell soda.


Now we just need to figure out how to get people to buy "soda" with their porn. I suspect Google has the right idea. They do not try to sell email related products via Gmail, nor office products via Google docs, so we don't have to sell adult products via porn. Playboy sells cologne, mens fashion, etc. via porn.

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DTK

I know, right? Ever heard of linklists? TGPs maybe?

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raymor

Playboy sells cologne, mens fashion, etc. via porn.

Someone mentioned the boner, the idea that they won't buy anything else while they are looking for porn. Maybe. Maybe the best time to sell them is right AFTER they bust a nut. Maybe it doesn't matter though, and here's why. Look at the ads on TV. Half the ads try to associate the product with sex. The ads are full of beautiful women. What better way to have the customer subconsciously associate your product with getting laid than to have your ad on screen while they are jacking off?!?! That's a fucking goldmine for companies selling cologne, hair products, clothes, sports cars, motorcycles, and thousands of other products. They may not buy right at that instant, but it's awesome subconcious branding. Perhaps what's needed is a really good way to track the long term performance of an ad campaign, so that Ralph Lauren (or some retailer) can see how effective it is to put their logo next to Yurizan's pussy.

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Paul Markham

OK let me take this argument apart in a short post.

The one thing we have been good at is building the volume of surfers getting free porn. So are you saying we need to give away more free porn to get more surfers looking at it?

Your post is nearly as silly as comparing a business that sells tangible goods offline with one that sells downloaded porn.

Please can we stop comparing apples to chickens.

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Paul Markham

These is the ratios some people recently posted about Tube sales. Can you tell us what they are doing wrong please.

13,781 Unique IPs
39,182 Impressions
20,792 Video Views

Raw 1319
Unique 797
Join 238
Sales 0

And

223719 uniques
3 sales.

1-74573

And

For the current year.

60,174 | 345,391 | 122,127 | $55.00

These stats include revenue for two sales.

Averages out to 91 cents per thousand unique visitors.

The last guy seems to be doing well.

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papill0n

that's 91 cents per thousand visitors more than you

Paul Markham

Having a day in the week, when sales are low, as a cut price membership day, might work. We tried having a day in the week where sponsors paid out huge bonuses to affiliates for sign ups. Let's try giving the surfer something.

The advertising point is good and if mainstream industries allowed advertising on porn sites the paysite model might eventually put to rest. Until then it's a very small selection of advertisers.

However as Nicky says we can now monetise this free traffic at $10 per 20,000 surfers.

200,000 uniques a day = $100 a day. $36,500 a year. Less traffic, hosting, content, programs, etc. Must clear at least the wage of a Macdonalds burger flipper and you don't have to leave your bedroom.

I forgot to include the sign ups to the paysites featured on the Tube. Someone can do the maths for how well paysites sell off tubes giving away free porn.

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OldJeff

If you are doing 200,000 unique a day and only making $100 a day, this business simply is not for you.

Free porn did not, and will not eliminate sales, I have said it before, and it does not change, affiliates do not sell porn, they sell traffic.

A surfer is not a customer, they are a comodity.

Realize these facts = make money.

The problem with most of the people bitching about not making any money is these are the same people that would make no money in any other chosen business.

Online porn business is not for everyone, probably 90% of the people here would make more money if they went out and got a job.

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Paul Markham

Just quoting Nicky's ratios. He seems to think it's good.



No he's a person you can't control.

Like you do? So show us your site.

Are you one of them http://clientlion.com/

Are you one of them?

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