let's talk about veterinarians

[dyna mo]

in that thread yesterday, i commented that most vets over-prescribe over-procedure their patient animals. that comment was based on my experience.

a brief history of every one of the vets i have sent my current animal to:

1. my 3 month old puppy's leg was severely broken and required orthopedic surgery to repair. that procedure involved putting a screw in his leg, the vet didn't have the proper size screw on hand so substituted a screw that was too long, thus sticking out past the bone, eventually wearing through his skin causing a massive bone infection. result- the bone did not regenerate properly leaving a mass of bone and false hinge.

cost: $5000 and a dog that will ultimately have a very bad leg when he gets into old age

2. since that vet screwed up i took the dog to a new vet, who required i get all shots redone by him even though the dog had recently received all shots and i provided the paperwork for that

3. since that vet ruined her chances i took my little guy to a new vet who told me that dogs require a special shampoo and conditioner since their skin ph is unique. she then pitched me on her special $25 shampoo and $25 conditioner, neglecting to even check out my dog

4. 2 years after the dog broke his leg, he started limping around and favoring that leg, i took him to another vet, that vet took x-rays and required 2 visits to tell me that she was referring my dog to an orthopedic surgeon- the best one in southern california.

5. i took him to that ortho who required his own xrays- of each and every leg. upon the follow-up visit he said the bad leg is a mangled mess and the answer was to operate on all 3 other legs, and that surgery needed to be performed ASAP.

needless to say, i opted out of that and began feeding my dog glucosamine/chondrotin on a daily basis and the limping/favoring went away.

so what does it take to find a good vet????/

[Jarmusch]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

so what does it take to find a good vet????/

Move to Europe, perhaps.

[PR_Glen]

that over in the US? i know in Canada vet bills are a lot higher.. people go across the border to get their pets looked at all the time..

dog people are big on word of mouth i find.. check out a doggy message board and they will give you endless advice for your area no doubt.

[BlackCrayon]

become one yourself. its sad to see greed favored over the treatment of the animals they are supposed to help.

[WarChild]

Well since my sister is a Critical Care vet, I also use regular Vets close to my house for normal check up type stuff. Like I mentioned before, she works at the hospital and is not a partner. That means she can't give me any great discounts where she works. She comes and does their shots and check ups and stuff at home, but if I need to have an ear or something checked out on one of my dogs I go to a local place.

I always look for females. I personally think they care more. I also try to find a younger female, one that isn't 50 years out of Vet school if you know what I mean. From there I just go with my gut feeling. I find it pretty easy to tell if someone actually cares or not. Of course I can run their diagnosis passed my sister so it helps to confirm my gut feeling.


People, whenever possible, BUY PET INSURANCE. $30 a month is nothing compared to even a single $5000 visit to the Doctor.

[WarChild]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

become one yourself. its sad to see greed favored over the treatment of the animals they are supposed to help.

A greedy Vet, at least in Canada, is called a Dentist. They make FAR more money and it's easier to get in to. You don't become a Vet to be rich.

[dyna mo]

good advices, much appreciated.

what about vaccines?

i stopped getting my dog vaccinated as well.

[WarChild]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

good advices, much appreciated.

what about vaccines?

i stopped getting my dog vaccinated as well.

I get my dogs vaccinated yearly. 3-in-1 yearly plus Rabies every 3 years. I know my sister has 2 rescued dogs and about 5 cats and they all get their shots too.

Rabies, at least, is just the responsible thing to do. You can skip the Bordetello (Kennel Cough) if you don't board your dog. It's administered orally though and not a problem.

[cherrylula]

I still wonder if I hadn't taken my dog to the vet if she wouldn't have had a seizure the next morning. I will always wonder about that.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by WarChild

I get my dogs vaccinated yearly. 3-in-1 yearly plus Rabies every 3 years. I know my sister has 2 rescued dogs and about 5 cats and they all get their shots too.

Rabies, at least, is just the responsible thing to do. You can skip the Bordetello (Kennel Cough) if you don't board your dog. It's administered orally though and not a problem.

really, wow. i was informed the 3 in1 is the most dangerous of the vaccines. man, so much opposing info.

[SallyRand]

I have two vets, one is a USA trained woman who is much more concerned about the animals than the money, so she is great. The other is an Egyptian vet who brings to the table modern veterinary practice combined with some Old-World homeopathic, herbal and supplement treatments. He succcessfully treats heartworm infestations with Ivermectin, which USA trained vets will not do. Ivermectin treatment of heartworm is a very, very complicated technique and you should not try this at home. Screw it up and you will kill the animal in only a few hours.

My dogs are healthy and happy and growing! "Big Daddy" is up to about 135 lbs (61 kg). He doesn't like the scales at the vet and won't stand on them any more, so this is his last known weight from about 6 months ago. The puppies at 16 months are at around 65 lbs (30 kg) and the Momma Dog is on the small side, only about 75 lbs (34 kg). I do my own vaccinations, except for rabies, which by law here must be administered by a licensed vet.

[Ayla_SquareTurtle]

I dislike most vets almost as much as I dislike most doctors. I have birds and have had vets outright lie to me about the facilities they have for birds just to get me in the door.

Did you get your $5000 back from the vet who fucked over your puppy? That's one asshole who would definitely not be keeping my cash.

You might try contacting your local rescue or social group for your specific breed for recommendations. They often work with good vets who do a lot of pro bono work because they actually care about animals and not just selling you shampoo.

[ottopottomouse]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

so what does it take to find a good vet????/

Luck.

Cat. Palate split in half from being hit on the head by a clock weight. Separately a broken leg from being hit by a car. Both fixed for cheap purely because the vet liked his name

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Ayla_SquareTurtle

I dislike most vets almost as much as I dislike most doctors. I have birds and have had vets outright lie to me about the facilities they have for birds just to get me in the door.

Did you get your $5000 back from the vet who fucked over your puppy? That's one asshole who would definitely not be keeping my cash.

You might try contacting your local rescue or social group for your specific breed for recommendations. They often work with good vets who do a lot of pro bono work because they actually care about animals and not just selling you shampoo.

no refund on the surgery/rehab. i brought that up and they reminded me i signed a pre-surgery document that stating there were no guarantees and i released them from any responsibility or something to that effect.

i've gotten recommendations from others at the dog parks etc, but will look into forums and the local rescue center for referrals, thx for those suggestions!

[Vendzilla]

I live in Northern California, I have had horses, when my dad moved from LA to near by, he noticed the big difference at the vet, they had cattle ramps next to the building.

[Ayla_SquareTurtle]

I can't imagine that you could sign something giving a vet permission to PURPOSELY injure your dog. It's not like he oopsed and used the wrong size accidently, he did it on purpose. (At least it seems so from your story.) Furthermore, even if it were an accident, a good vet wouldn't charge you for making things worse.

I think I'd have to at least attempt to file animal cruelty charges and CERTAINLY would have reported him to whatever agency has authority over vets and their licensing. Giving up the 5K would be the easy way out once you've hurt my pet. I am the queen of all raging bitches when the situation calls.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Ayla_SquareTurtle

I can't imagine that you could sign something giving a vet permission to PURPOSELY injure your dog. It's not like he oopsed and used the wrong size accidently, he did it on purpose. (At least it seems so from your story.) Furthermore, even if it were an accident, a good vet wouldn't charge you for making things worse.

I think I'd have to at least attempt to file animal cruelty charges and CERTAINLY would have reported him to whatever agency has authority over vets and their licensing. Giving up the 5K would be the easy way out once you've hurt my pet. I am the queen of all raging bitches when the situation calls.

i hear ya, i was more than emotional about it and it devastated me for a long while, as it was my fault for the fracture.

pic of the screw sticking out

[Ayla_SquareTurtle]

Poor guy. I just lost my 14 year old cockatiel last week so this thread is making me kinda sad.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Ayla_SquareTurtle

Poor guy. I just lost my 14 year old cockatiel last week so this thread is making me kinda sad.

i'm sorry.

[Ayla_SquareTurtle]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

i'm sorry.

Not your fault. Good luck with your puppy. I know you feel bad for hurting him but it looks like you are doing what you can to make it right and that's what matters at this point.

[woj]

that's how things work with medical doctors too.... nothing new...
and actually other "professionals" are pretty much the same dentists / lawyers / accountants / etc... unless you find a good one, they will all bill you big bucks for sloppy work...

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Ayla_SquareTurtle

Not your fault. Good luck with your puppy. I know you feel bad for hurting him but it looks like you are doing what you can to make it right and that's what matters at this point.

appreciated.

he gets around really well these days and i would go to the ends of the earth for him. i still can't figure out how to handle vaccines though.

[Elli]

Terrible experiences with a few vets in various places. Have pretty much sworn off them now except in obvious emergencies. The vet I DID trust and liked has retired and I very much distrust his replacement.

cat de-claw in Tucson, AZ: NEVER again for various reasons. Found out after that a vet tech did the operation, not the vet. Applied the tourniquet too tight and my kitty's paw swelled up, skin sloughed off, and I had to apply daily ointment for a month and give him painkillers. Took about 3 years for the fur to kind of grow back. Asked for a refund or explanation, got NO sympathy. Cat lived to a ripe old age despite later developing the bladder crystals.

puppy spay: SHOULD have price-shopped, but didn't know there was such a variance in pricing (between $80 and $400 in my area). After the dog was out cold, vet calls and says she's in heat, so will be a "slightly revised price." no other details. I'm against waking the dog back up to try again later, so tell her to go ahead. Final bill: $600.

aftercare for puppy spay: stitches look infected, so went to a new vet who said NO CHARGE if not infected. Well, of course she said "it looks like it COULD BE a touch" so yes, there's a charge. Ointment $37, cone collar $18, vet visit $40. I asked if I could apply Polysporin instead, she said no, dogs are much different than humans. Bullshits, I say.

puppy emergency poisoning: took to 24 hour clinic downtown because she had eaten a frog and was experiencing severe drunkeness symptoms. Full blood work, full toxicology, 4 hours later, no results. "probably a frog, not sure." One $3 shot of charcoal suspension down her throat on the way out the door, dog barfs everything up on the waiting room floor. INSTANTLY BETTER. Total fees: $900.

puppy "red" mange: she got a slight touch of it and started losing hair around her eyes and ears. Read about how toxic the vet 'dips' are and how mange usually comes back regardless. Gave her an extra E vitamin a day and did the hydrogen peroxide + borax home dip four times. Mange completely gone in a month.

additional gripe: my dog is raw fed (RMB diet) and NO vet has ever accepted this. One went so far as to tell me I should not have any children in my house or around the animal. One tech looked at my pup and said "oh, I don't want any kisses from you, then". It's like a doctor refusing to treat a patient who's vegan or vegetarian or because they don't eat Kraft products or something. Ridiculous.

Conclusion: no vets unless absolutely neccessary.

[bronco67]

Vets also have this practice of pushing Hill's Science Diet as you bring a new puppy into the office. Hill's puts vets through school, and have employees teaching nutritional classes -- to recruit them for their sales army to brainwash nutritionally uneducated customers into putting their dog on their food -- which BTW is one of the absolute worst shit dog foods you can buy. The first few ingredients tell the entire story.

I switched vets because I couldn't take them constantly trying to make me switch dog foods. When I ask most people I know that use Science Diet, why they give it to their dog, they almost always say "the vet told me this was the best food."

They just assume that no one actually does food research for themselves.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Elli

Terrible experiences with a few vets in various places. Have pretty much sworn off them now except in obvious emergencies. The vet I DID trust and liked has retired and I very much distrust his replacement.

cat de-claw in Tucson, AZ: NEVER again for various reasons. Found out after that a vet tech did the operation, not the vet. Applied the tourniquet too tight and my kitty's paw swelled up, skin sloughed off, and I had to apply daily ointment for a month and give him painkillers. Took about 3 years for the fur to kind of grow back. Asked for a refund or explanation, got NO sympathy. Cat lived to a ripe old age despite later developing the bladder crystals.

puppy spay: SHOULD have price-shopped, but didn't know there was such a variance in pricing (between $80 and $400 in my area). After the dog was out cold, vet calls and says she's in heat, so will be a "slightly revised price." no other details. I'm against waking the dog back up to try again later, so tell her to go ahead. Final bill: $600.

aftercare for puppy spay: stitches look infected, so went to a new vet who said NO CHARGE if not infected. Well, of course she said "it looks like it COULD BE a touch" so yes, there's a charge. Ointment $37, cone collar $18, vet visit $40. I asked if I could apply Polysporin instead, she said no, dogs are much different than humans. Bullshits, I say.

puppy emergency poisoning: took to 24 hour clinic downtown because she had eaten a frog and was experiencing severe drunkeness symptoms. Full blood work, full toxicology, 4 hours later, no results. "probably a frog, not sure." One $3 shot of charcoal suspension down her throat on the way out the door, dog barfs everything up on the waiting room floor. INSTANTLY BETTER. Total fees: $900.

puppy "red" mange: she got a slight touch of it and started losing hair around her eyes and ears. Read about how toxic the vet 'dips' are and how mange usually comes back regardless. Gave her an extra E vitamin a day and did the hydrogen peroxide + borax home dip four times. Mange completely gone in a month.

additional gripe: my dog is raw fed (RMB diet) and NO vet has ever accepted this. One went so far as to tell me I should not have any children in my house or around the animal. One tech looked at my pup and said "oh, I don't want any kisses from you, then". It's like a doctor refusing to treat a patient who's vegan or vegetarian or because they don't eat Kraft products or something. Ridiculous.

Conclusion: no vets unless absolutely neccessary.

oh wow. most unfortunate, these sorts of events are disheartening.


what's an rmb diet?

[Angry Jew Cat - Banned for Life]

new dogs are cheaper.

[Elli]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

oh wow. most unfortunate, these sorts of events are disheartening.


what's an rmb diet?

RMB = Raw Meaty Bones. Basically it's a diet that's as close to their natural diet as possible (before we started feeding them kibble in WWII). There's a ton of info out there on it, but it's super easy. Pick up meat at the store or butcher and feed to dog. Add some yogurt once a day for healthy bacteria, include some Omega 3 from salmon oil and a vitamin E to go with, and there you have it. Dog food. Over a week you should include about 10% bone content as dogs do crunch raw bones up quite well. NEVER cooked bones, which can shatter.

For example, last night I bought a whole fryer chicken. Trimmed it up into people pieces and fed the dog the back/neck/ribs/organs. That chicken trimming lasts two meals (she's 15lbs) and would have gone to waste otherwise.

If you're traveling, you can just pick up a tube of ground chuck and feed that, or a can of tuna. THrow in a raw egg in the shell once a week for the calcium content. People think it's complicated, but it's really not.

[Honez]

I have been both extremely lucky and extremely unlucky over the years. I guess one thing that bugged me about the Vet in the thread yesterday was his not even considering a certain diagnosis simply because he had never seen it before. My reasoning for that? I once took my cat, who I was pretty sure had distemper, to the only Vet around. He told me "cats don't get distemper. He has hairballs" and sent me on my way with a tube of Petromalt. Days later as my cat lay howling in agony in my laundry room, I scooped him up and took him miles away to another vet who told me he had distemper. He died within an hour.

Years later I worked at an Emergency Animal Hospital with two Veterinarians and a great staff so my kitty at the time got pretty good care until one of the Dr's started drinking heavily. That was a bit of a nightmare and a whole other story.

When my 16 year old Himilayan stopped eating, I took her to a clinic that had been recommended by the local shelter. Long story short, the Vet there saved her life because he was so open to 'what ifs', very much on the ball and refused to give up without trying every option he could think of. His bedside manner was a bit stiff and clinical but, he was the most amazing Veterinarian I have ever known.

Vets and clinics are similar to finding a people Dr. It is usually trial and error and a whole lot of luck.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Elli

RMB = Raw Meaty Bones. Basically it's a diet that's as close to their natural diet as possible (before we started feeding them kibble in WWII). There's a ton of info out there on it, but it's super easy. Pick up meat at the store or butcher and feed to dog. Add some yogurt once a day for healthy bacteria, include some Omega 3 from salmon oil and a vitamin E to go with, and there you have it. Dog food. Over a week you should include about 10% bone content as dogs do crunch raw bones up quite well. NEVER cooked bones, which can shatter.

For example, last night I bought a whole fryer chicken. Trimmed it up into people pieces and fed the dog the back/neck/ribs/organs. That chicken trimming lasts two meals (she's 15lbs) and would have gone to waste otherwise.

If you're traveling, you can just pick up a tube of ground chuck and feed that, or a can of tuna. THrow in a raw egg in the shell once a week for the calcium content. People think it's complicated, but it's really not.

cool, thank you.

xxweekxx posted some links elsewhere to primal pet food which offers these sorts of products

are there some rmb sites/links you recommend?

[MovieMaster]

If you have a parrot and want some avian veterinarian experiences which are much different than general animal veterinarians head over to www.BirdBoard.com

[RebelR]

Originally Posted by bronco67

Vets also have this practice of pushing Hill's Science Diet as you bring a new puppy into the office. Hill's puts vets through school, and have employees teaching nutritional classes -- to recruit them for their sales army to brainwash nutritionally uneducated customers into putting their dog on their food -- which BTW is one of the absolute worst shit dog foods you can buy. The first few ingredients tell the entire story.

I switched vets because I couldn't take it anymore. When I ask most people I know that use Science Diet why they give it to their dog, they almost always say "the vet told me this was the best food."

They just assume that no one actually does food research for themselves.

I couldn't agree with you more. My sister-in-law's vet has her min-pin on the diabetic Science Diet formula.. number 1 ingredient in it is cellulose (basically wood fiber) The dog is constantly hungry. I keep pushing her to try an alternative, but she maintains that its gonna cost her a fortune to even experiment with other foods, because it has to be done in conjunction with the vet, and she never seems to be able to escape their office under $400. Hills is actually building a new wing in the University of Guelph up here. If you are ever looking to see what is in your kibble Dog Food Analysis

We rarely go to the vets other than the rabies shot every 3 or so years, Vets try to tell you that you need to get it done more, but a friend who is a vet, says that most will try and push it on you yearly.. or every 2 years for the money and its completely unnecessary

If you wanna see expensive, get an equine vet.. $60 just to show up on the property..and then basically $2 a minute, plus whatever procedure you are doing. For shots, it used to cost us about $275/horse per year, tell the vets you cant afford everything.. and suddenly.. some things become not quite so necessary. Suddenly you are down to $75. It used to be that we had our farrier float the horses teeth (grind them down) that was when they had to use a hand file and it took quite a bit of time. Now that they can put a tool on the end of a reciprocating saw and its nice and easy, they are trying to regulate it so that only a vet can do it, and they can charge $400. Cash Grab?

In too many cases, Vets seem to pry on the heart strings, how much do you love your dog or cat in dollars?

[Elli]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

cool, thank you.

xxweekxx posted some links elsewhere to primal pet food which offers these sorts of products

are there some rmb sites/links you recommend?

Yes, if you're not quite into the raw thing, there are options like Acana or Orijen, Wellness, Blue Buffalo, etc. You can also buy pre-made patties, but they're super expensive compared to just buying from a butcher. I get mine at SurreyMeatPackers and you can get ground chicken with bone in it for about $1.50 a lb in a 50lb pack.

A side benefit of a raw fed dog is WAY less body and hair odor and smaller poops! Also the poops tend to break down into a chalky type dust if you leave them for a couple days and aren't as odorific as kibble fed poops.

Some more links:
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.usrmb.net/
EXCELLENT thread on getting started: http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Fo.../thread/491589

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by Elli

Yes, if you're not quite into the raw thing, there are options like Acana or Orijen, Wellness, Blue Buffalo, etc. You can also buy pre-made patties, but they're super expensive compared to just buying from a butcher. I get mine at SurreyMeatPackers and you can get ground chicken with bone in it for about $1.50 a lb in a 50lb pack.

A side benefit of a raw fed dog is WAY less body and hair odor and smaller poops! Also the poops tend to break down into a chalky type dust if you leave them for a couple days and aren't as odorific as kibble fed poops.

Some more links:
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.usrmb.net/
EXCELLENT thread on getting started: http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Fo.../thread/491589

thank you so much!

[TurboAngel]

I'm so glad to have my 2 vets, one's a clinic where they only do shots at 1/2 price of the "real" vet. The other one I just found when my pitt got an ear infection last week. They both love my dog and couldn't believe how happy she was to be at the vet as she had to be in excruciating pain.

The vet at the clinic told me if anyone had a prob with Angel that I could give them his # and he would vouch for her.

[ShellyCrash]

Originally Posted by WarChild

I always look for females. I personally think they care more. I also try to find a younger female, one that isn't 50 years out of Vet school if you know what I mean.

I know this will sound sexist, but young women have always done right by my pets. It seems like they're not jaded and not as in it for the money.

There was a younger wiccan vet I used to bring my guys to all the time, but she's left the practice and now I'm finding myself in a similar situation, trying to find one that will not want to over medicate in the name of the dollar.

[theking]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

in that thread yesterday, i commented that most vets over-prescribe over-procedure their patient animals. that comment was based on my experience.

a brief history of every one of the vets i have sent my current animal to:

1. my 3 month old puppy's leg was severely broken and required orthopedic surgery to repair. that procedure involved putting a screw in his leg, the vet didn't have the proper size screw on hand so substituted a screw that was too long, thus sticking out past the bone, eventually wearing through his skin causing a massive bone infection. result- the bone did not regenerate properly leaving a mass of bone and false hinge.

cost: $5000 and a dog that will ultimately have a very bad leg when he gets into old age

2. since that vet screwed up i took the dog to a new vet, who required i get all shots redone by him even though the dog had recently received all shots and i provided the paperwork for that

3. since that vet ruined her chances i took my little guy to a new vet who told me that dogs require a special shampoo and conditioner since their skin ph is unique. she then pitched me on her special $25 shampoo and $25 conditioner, neglecting to even check out my dog

4. 2 years after the dog broke his leg, he started limping around and favoring that leg, i took him to another vet, that vet took x-rays and required 2 visits to tell me that she was referring my dog to an orthopedic surgeon- the best one in southern california.

5. i took him to that ortho who required his own xrays- of each and every leg. upon the follow-up visit he said the bad leg is a mangled mess and the answer was to operate on all 3 other legs, and that surgery needed to be performed ASAP.

needless to say, i opted out of that and began feeding my dog glucosamine/chondrotin on a daily basis and the limping/favoring went away.

so what does it take to find a good vet????/

My experience with Vets is about the same as it is with Doctors. Go to three different Doctors and describe your symptoms and you will usually get three different opinions...the same with Vets.

[dyna mo]

my thought was the young ones are still paying off vet school.


good input here though, thx!