robwod

This is somewhat lengthy, but important to detail it for complete understanding. I apologize for the length.

Recently I have had the experience with one sponsor where I noticed little tiny commissions showing up for sales. Wondering wtf was going on... as I don't use trials. I hate trials. I use revshare. So, why then would I start seeing all these little sales for a lousy $1.23?

I looked at my NATS links and saw my code there, just fine. And that's when I noticed the exit code for some company named Intellichat.... who inserts a DIFFERENT NATS code than the one I referred the surfer with.

Naturally my reaction was wtf is going on with my revshare links? Are my NATS codes/cookies getting circumvented by this new code from Intellichat? (Still awaiting answers on this).

A little discussion between myself and the sponsor and it apparently works like this:

Under normal situations, an affiliate refers a surfer and the surfer is cookied and if he joins you are credited with the sale. If he leaves and comes back later, you are credited with the sale for the FULL sale amount commission. This is a "bookmark sale" and is given to you at full commission on the option they joined with. Bookmark sales are the bulk of my sales.

With this Intellichat Interception routine, it seems to work like this:

An affiliate refers a surfer and the surfer is cookied, and then decides to leave before buying, an Intellichat window (a third party!) pops up with a live sales person and convinces the person to stay. In the case of my sponsor in question, this was a 3 day trial of which I was credited a mere $1.23 (whooppee)

Now, here's the rub for me. I do not use trial links, as mentioned. Yet a trial link was inserted in my links via this Intellichat Link Interecption. This site in question does not have sufficient content or video as it is fairly new. As such, you can view this site in its entirely in an afternoon, much less 3 days. A 3 day trial is not worth it to affiliates, it's just that simple.

Based on my own stats, I avg across all of my nats sites, 75% of my sales coming from bookmarks/cookies.

With this Intellichat program intercepting this, allegedly, I am effectively having my chance to make those FULL bookmarked sales taken away from me in lieu of those ridiculous $1.23 commissions since my bookmark cookie is no longer relevant.

I should mention, I am told if the converted person does rebill, I get a normal rebill commission, but that still doesn't erase the fact my ability to convert my own bookmarked traffic was effectively taken from me.

From where I sit, I am effectively having my opportunity to convert my own bookmarked cookie traffic with my own referred cookies, at full price, circumvented by a program that does absolutely nothing to benefit me, except scoop the sale before I have a chance for my bookmark cookie to convert later -- at MORE money. To me, this is 100% unacceptable to insert on affiliate links.

Ultimately in this fiasco, I have earned less money as a result of this intellichat experiment with this particular sponsor and have told them so.

So, my question is this... I would like to know which sponsors are also using Intellichat Exits on their affiliate link join pages.

Disclaimer: I am hardly saying Intellichat is scamming my sales is doing anything wrong. In fact I could see their service as an enormous tool for use on TYPE-IN traffic. But implemented how it was on this particular sponsor with affiliate links using trials, it was a dismal disaster and completely unacceptable.

quantum-x

Sounds like there should be an option to filter this off.

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TheDoc

Just because NATS referrals reports referring URL's as cookie/no ref, it doesn't mean they are really bookmarks or type-ins. 90% aren't type-ins or bookmarks, they just appear that way.

Intellichat, should, add sales to your account. 10-20% more sales. It's a back out offer exit. The person was leaving the Website/page and this got them to come back or stay. Converting what wasn't going to be a sale, into a sale.

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robwod

Qauntum, I agree 100%. An option extended to affiliates to try and see if it works for them or not. I know my traffic and the sites to whom i am sending traffic. i know whether a trial will make me more in the long run or not. Thus the reason I will not use them on this site. An option would have been idea (so long as it was opt-in).

That said, I still expect to be compensated properly for having my sales circumvented for a fraction of what it could have/should have been.

robwod

Doc, i know what it is. I just don't appreciate it when my links are circumvented for a trial I never asked for. Neither you, nor I, nor Intellichat can claim the customer they scooped from me would not be back tomorrow carrying MY cookie and buy at full price like the majority of my "cookied / bookmark" sales.

TheDoc

Currently, no easy way to shut them off per Webmaster unless a new program is setup, then things get crazy.

Outside of that... You get compensated. And "Your" sales aren't being circumvented. They are being converted, when you would have lost them.

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baddog

You would hope.

I think you should read his post again.

TheDoc

How do you know they are bookmarked / cookied sales?

Not even the Admin of NATS can tell that.

Just because NATS referral report says that, doesn't mean that's what they are. Actually, it doesn't mean that at all.

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baddog

Good luck on that.

u-Bob

"no trial" links should be "no trial" links, simple as that.

TheDoc

Oh I get it.. He was credited sales (ie: paid), correctly and he is bitching about it because he selected choose notrial links, then he thinks he should be paid full on sales he would have lost otherwise.

Simple enough to understand.

No trial links = Main offer is no trial.

After that people, it's MY JOB to convert the person.


You people bitching are crazy, this is what you WANT a paysite to do for you.

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baddog

never mind

u-Bob

no trial = no trial. at all.

TheDoc

Great opinion.... did you agree to that in the terms?

You = Affiliate
Me = Paysite Owner

You get no say on how I choose to monetize my Website. (as long as you get proper credit)

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jay23

Intellichat basically intercept a surfer that is not buying any thing on the site and leaving and try to convince them to buy. For this they have to be paid.

So the question is how does the affiliate want to get paid, full amount or part of it. I am in middle of implementing this on a site.

robwod

It's my referred traffic. If it converts, I want FULL compensation. More especially if it's a revshare link with NO popups or exists.

Without an option to disable/enable Intellichat on my links, that's one sponsor who i simply won't do work with. There's more options out there with affiliate minded people running the show.

robwod

The surfer is just not buying anything right away, so this intellichat tries to convince them and gives them crazy low offer to join now), effectively eliminating any chance of your initially referred/cookied surfer coming back and joining later at a regular price.

TheDoc

Your sales aren't coming BACK from bookmarks and joining.

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u-Bob

so your TOS states that your "no trial" links aren't really "no trial" links?

So there's nothing wrong with offering trials on 'no trial' links?... Ok, next we'll have sponsors adding popups to 'no popup/console' links... "Hey, the popup isn't on the entry page... it's on the second sample page or on the join page"....

robwod

You don't know that for a definitive answer. 75% of my sales with all NATS programs are Bookmarks (which i am told are predominantly cookied surfers). With the implementation of this Intellichat, my "bookmarks" sales in NATS have dropped to nothing. Are you suggesting this is coincidence?

robwod

Incidentally, I am not wanting this to be a drama thread, or name calling and other nonsense. Rather, i am looking to have a civil, business discussion about the effects, negative and otherwise, that something like this implementation could have for both affiliates and owners.

Imortyl Pussycat

the Intellichat adult version was modeled after UpSellit's adult product Exit-Chat. I do not know how tech savy Intellichat is but if they replicated most of UpSellit's technology then they should offer the same type of affiliate solutions ie: UpSellit would simply individually suppress any affiliate code they were requested to. Ask them to supress your code and see what happens. If they are stand-up (and I have heard that they are), they will suppress and resolve for you immediately.

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TheDoc

Aye, I know for 100% sure..


The bookmarked sales you see in nats, could be renamed (Unknown)... Would that help?

It's an error if you would, it means nats has no idea were they came from. IE: No Cookies and no Reffering url. When they go through IT, they change programs, and IP tracking kicks in on returns if no cookie is set.


Some are returns. However, NO site has more than 10% (max 20% on new sites) raw return rate, period.. So thinking you have 75% returns on bookmarks is 100% statistically impossible.


So unless you are doing 'less' sales, you didn't drop any sales.

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DonovanTrent

I was wondering when an issue like this would come up. Here's another scenario...

Joe Blow visits site, looks at first preview page, clicks Join link instead of Continue Preview. He goes, ah shit and clicks the back button to check out more of the tour. Boom, there's the Intellichat window offering a cutrate price, when he wasn't even leaving the site at all.

I'd agree that Intellichat on an affiliate's incoming traffic should at least be an opt-out situation, and there should also be the capability to ONLY have the Intellichat window pop if they either close browser or leave the URL entirely by going to another site, rather than just "always pop if they leave the join page."

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robwod

I'll have to discuss this with NATS to be 100% certain.

But let's be clear here. I am *not* trying to attack or belittle Intellichat. Not at all (although I realize some of comments appear this way). What I am saying is that i think it could be a beneficial tool for all: site owners, affiliates and Intellichat themselves. We're all in this to make money. But the numbers have to be mutually beneficial. And there needs to be a system whereby those who want to use it, can, and others can choose not to.

And certainly, in terms of numbers, for those not wishing to use trials, these should never be used to sell trials on those links.

My beef here is two fold: #1, I had my surfer intercepted with with a popup enticing him to buy at some ridiculous low price, or which i was given the embarrassingly amount of $1.23. In the process, we'll now never know if this person would have come back and I'd have gotten a credited sale at full rate. Personally, I'd have have like the opportunity to risk getting a full sale later on a return visit versus losing it to some low trial that won;t convert past the 3 days.

Having options is not a bad thing.

jay23

On one side we need to keep the affiliate happy and on other site the program owners point which is this is a sales that we are losing so why not use some thing like this to generate a sale. If we have to pay the affiliate and the chat company their will be no money.

robwod

In the absence of affiliate opting-in/out, certainly it can be used for type-in traffic.

robwod

Now, having said all of this... what sponsors are using Intellichat? Does anyone know which sponsors are using it on affiliate links, and more particularly, on no trial links?

Thurbs

your beef isn't actually with intellichat , your beef would be with how a sponsor implemented it.

however, let's say no trial links, would you be satisfied with them putting in a 9.95 / mo offer, where you would need to make two saved sales, to get the value of the trial, since that trial most likely has a 50% chance of converting to full? and I'm not saying one is better then the other, but trust me, the sponsor could just as easily implement this, even if it's counter-intuitive to their metrics ( which you don't see )

also, if a sponsor uses intellichat and want's to customize how it works, say use the popup chain rules, it's 100% possible ...just put that code in the popup_exit2 or some other template and call that for those that opt.

lot's of ways for a sponsor to control the addons they put in, simply put, most are more comfortable with having that 3rd party dictate how things work because often you're working with people that don't really know how to admin nats' advanced functions.

robwod

Thurbs, I understand all this, having worked with NATS at an affiliate backend for quite some time. I have no beef with Intellichat... they offer a service and sponsors either add it or not. This too I understand.

However, what i am attempting to determine here is to just who is now using Intellichat and how it is implemented. Some sites are too small for trials, their content is simply not enough to warrant most people recurring. Thus the reasoning in my opening post. I specifically used non-trial links for that site given it is young, but growing, and it has limited content. There is insufficient content to reliably expect a decent recurring ratio. Thus, intercepting an exit click to offer a three day trial in lieu of a regular revshare conversion on a site you could view the contents of in an afternoon, is hardly worth offering a trial on via Intellichat.

And therein lies my issue. For sites I KNOW will not retain well enough yet due to content limitations, I want the option to NOT have trials exists from programs like Intellichat. I'd rather eat dirt than be given a pittance for a scooped trial sale that won't convert well, if at all.

Instead, I'd prefer to take my chances that the surfer i referred came back later and bought at full price, with my cookie.

Imortyl Pussycat

great point the most important thing for programs considering all the chat options is knowing what is capable and what is not. asking the right questions so you don't end up surprised later. anything is possible when programming the chat. the "pop on back" issue was resolved by UpSellit the moment it was pointed out by Dirty D's sharp crew. it was just a code issue that was easily resolved but was unnoticed by the group until pointed out. not sure if Intellichat has modified that in their programming but certainly can do it. it's a learning curve like with any newer technology. communication is key with this or any new product you implement into a program.

T, you going to Amsterdam?

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DonovanTrent

If the "pop on back" issue is what I described in my post above, then it's still a problem with Intellichat. I checked a few sites that I know use it right before I made the post, just to make sure it was still there.

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Donovan Trent

robwod

What sites? I would really like to know which sponsors this Intellichat on affiliate links, especially those using it to offer trials on no trial links.

DonovanTrent

I didn't look via affiliate links, I went straight into the test sites as if it was type-in/search engine. So I'm not going to name names. I was only doing it to test if back button popping was still there. That alone is why I don't use Intellichat on my sites. Too easy for people to get the pop way before they should.

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Donovan Trent

Thurbs

Hey - it's important for people to know where the problem stems from

I won't be in Amsterdam, too much biz going on here and some stuff we want to get done, and partying in the red light just wont help us with that.

TheDoc

Oh yeah, in the exit admin, just hide it from the affiliate.... duh.

I clearly live in the templates far too much.

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intellichat

Hey Guys,

Not sure if you all know me here... I?m Billy from Intellichat Adult, before I address the issues mentioned I would like to outline a few pointers on why we integrated with NATS.

Our system is designed at utilizing exit traffic & increasing your current conversions. The integration allows the site owner to credit the original affiliate whilst paying ourselves (without paying double for the join). If you take a quick look at this wiki file you will see that you can actually determine which traffic you wish Intellichat to interact with.

http://wiki.toomuchmedia.com/index.php/IntelliChat (reseller section)

We are currently are the forefront of automated technology, with offering a comprehensive range of custom settings, anything from how many times the campaign is shown or how the agent is activated. It is the site owners choice if they would like our system to appear when a visitor clicks the back button, if they don?t... We can disable it.

It is also the site owner?s decision on what incentive they wish to push within their campaigns, whether this is a discounted membership or trial price point.

I think part of it comes down to, would you like half of something or all of nothing...

If you have any further questions please contact me on the details below.

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brand0n

is intellichat live people?

and thedoc what program is yours again?

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signupdamnit

Is it really so hard to set up an opt out for affiliates? What's the big deal?

intellichat

Nope, all automated some of our webcam girlies are pretty hot though!

Check out the wiki file above you can choose unless you dont use NATS or MPA3 it would need to be done on the site owners end...

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seeandsee

interesting

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Mutt

so let's say for example that a surfer hits the back button on a revshare site, intellichat agent window pops up, if the surfer joins the site at some discounted price or a trial, Intellichat and the affiliate who sent the surfer split the revshare 50/50?

why can't programs just lease Intellichat and absorb that as a cost of running a program, i can see why an affiliate wouldn't be happy to be sharing his commission with a third party like Intellichat.

lots of surfers hit the back button, go back to the tour, or leave the site entirely and think about it and decide to join the site later. so the thread starter does have a point, i don't know the numbers of how many surfers do this and neither do any of the processors or programs. Intellichat definitely can interfere with sales. You say that site owners do have a lot of control how/when Intellichat is invoked.

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LotzaDollars

We use Intellichat, and have had good results from it. We do not offer a trial join on exit, but we do offer a discounted join. The affiliate still gets 50%+ of the join and we pay intellichat out of our % of the sale. The sale rebills at full price and and the affiliate gets his full payout as he normally would. We ONLY do this on link codes that have consoles.

If the affiliates opts for the CONSOLE-FREE revshare links, then we do NOT popup the Intellichat console or any other exit or offer. For NATS programs, they can set a console-free program pretty easily and stop the Intellichat popup from showing. Should be a pretty simple solution for this concern.

Our decision to use Intellichat was to help increase the bottom line for both our company and the affiliate. We set a 6 month cookie for all of our affiliates to help ensure that you get all the returning sales from the traffic that you send to us. I'm sure the company that you are referring to was trying to increase your sales as well. If they have NATS they can create a program for you to stop the popups.

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intellichat

The site owner chooses which pages they wish to use our system on. As i said above we have a wide range of settings allowing a campaign to be shown once per browser session, back button disabled etc.

As I mentioned earlier, companies use Intellichat because they want to utlize their traffic. We currently increase conversions around 20% daily with our existing clients. The reason there isnt a leasing option with our program is because Intellichat extremely advanced with the technology used, along with our optimization guys that spend hours on updating transcripts to make them more advanced.

As a standard we ask for 50% of the affiliate payout, this way the original affiliate can still be credited on our saved sale and earning money from traffic that was leaving the site.

We are currently developing a feature which will allow Intellichat to be paused until a 2nd or 3rd visit before the system is activated. This will again be an option that will be available to clients.

I would like to stress that we have a fix for the back button issue that has been mention a number of times in this thread. We can have it active or disabled it's down to the site owner. (There are very few companies which have the back button feature enabled.)

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cherrylula

Sounds like NATS needs to fix that, no? Incorrect reporting?

robwod

You say that as if you believe a surfer never comes comes back to buy later -- and at FULL commission to the affiliate.

An opt-IN option to existing links would be nice.. and certainly the option to not use them on no-console links. But I realize this is the sponsor's responsibility to set the options up.

robwod

To Intellichat... let me ask you this. After you popup and your NATS link supersedes the original referring affiliates, if the surfers says no to you and leaves, whose cookie does he leave with?

That is, if after talking to your bot he says no and leaves, does he leave the site with the original referring affiliate's NATS info, or one from your own NATS referral?

Looking at my links when it happened, my link was one NATS code, and the Intellichat was an entirely different NATS code. So, whose NATS link / referral info do they ultimately leave with, and what happens if they come back later and join. Does the affiliate still get full credit for the sale?

intellichat

A few might return but if you think about the volume of traffic that goes to a website how many of those visitors will return?

The whole point in a last minute discount is to secure the join and not give them the thought of going to another site. Our stats show that we really do increase conversions.

If certain affiliates do not want Intellichat on their traffic, you just need to ask the program owner to disable the agent for your affiliate ID.

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TheDoc

I don't think the people are live... but the surfer is prob easily tricked.


I keep my programs and paysites, out of the public eyes. I speak my mind enough on here that people will actually stop pushing me because of something I say. It has happened :/

So I sold my last program, and from that day forward I went incognito.

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TheDoc

No... not at all. It's not important and it's impossible to be perfect, unless you're pulling server logs, which isn't happening.

You use redirect links, it's bound to miss the referring url. Like going through your tracking script, then through nats. NATS can't correct that. And they can't correct no cookies.

Being that the referring url is picked up before the paysite is even loaded. The paysite itself has nothing to do with nats, tracking etc.. so it isn't going to help pick anything up.

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