Question about the original Terminator 1 the 80's one

[Persius]

The whole plot of the movie doesn't make sense (time travel)

What I don't understand is that Kyle Reiss was sent from john connor from the future to
protect sarah connor and impregnate her creating John connor. the future leader of the resistance.

How is he sending Kyle ? How does that make any sense he should not be even alive? Who is his father if he is sending kyle reiss?

WTF i hate how they throw in time travel and then do whatever the fuck they want and say oh its time travel it makes sense....

[StuartD]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox

[fuzebox]

Doc Brown would have a fucking field day with the T1 paradoxes.

[Kard63]

He couldn't. Its lame. Also, in the new Star Trek movie none of that shit is going to happen because Spock knows what happens and will get there 5 minutes earlier next time...

[mikesinner]

That's why it's science fiction.

[SilentKnight]

It requires a suspension of facts and reality - its entertainment...its not supposed to make total sense.

[Danny B]

Originally Posted by StuartD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox

Interesting read mate

[Rick Diculous]

Did he use 1.21 gigawatt??

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Persius

The whole plot of the movie doesn't make sense (time travel)

What I don't understand is that Kyle Reiss was sent from john connor from the future to
protect sarah connor and impregnate her creating John connor. the future leader of the resistance.

How is he sending Kyle ? How does that make any sense he should not be even alive? Who is his father if he is sending kyle reiss?

WTF i hate how they throw in time travel and then do whatever the fuck they want and say oh its time travel it makes sense....

Can you disprove it can't happen that way? Nope.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Kard63

He couldn't. Its lame. Also, in the new Star Trek movie none of that shit is going to happen because Spock knows what happens and will get there 5 minutes earlier next time...

Yes that's where it lost you. The whole part how in less than 100 years will have the ability to fly from solor system to solar system and will create a federation of planets with aliens that are pretty much like us and at the exact same tehnological stage as us give or take a few decades. And of course English is quite easy for them to learn and preferably speak. That part you bought.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by Persius

The whole plot of the movie doesn't make sense (time travel)

What I don't understand is that Kyle Reiss was sent from john connor from the future to
protect sarah connor and impregnate her creating John connor. the future leader of the resistance.

How is he sending Kyle ? How does that make any sense he should not be even alive? Who is his father if he is sending kyle reiss?

WTF i hate how they throw in time travel and then do whatever the fuck they want and say oh its time travel it makes sense....

Well I suppose that the only way this could really happen is in dimensional terms with a fractal timeline in which from whatever time you travel back to a new time line fractures off the original and moves towards its own and unwritten future. This leaves the original timeline in tact.

Using this logic, Kyle may NOT have been the original father but thanks to his mother grew up to be a very similar person as the original.

I do see what you are saying and that is a very huge hole in the story. If Kyle wasn't sent back to father John then John will never exist to send back Kyle, resulting in Cyberdyne not even giving a fuck who Sarah Connor is.

[Mr Pheer]

You guys are big nerds.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Darkland

Well I suppose that the only way this could really happen is in dimensional terms with a fractal timeline in which from whatever time you travel back to a new time line fractures off the original and moves towards its own and unwritten future. This leaves the original timeline in tact.

Using this logic, Kyle may NOT have been the original father but thanks to his mother grew up to be a very similar person as the original.

I do see what you are saying and that is a very huge hole in the story. If Kyle wasn't sent back to father John then John will never exist to send back Kyle, resulting in Cyberdyne not even giving a fuck who Sarah Connor is.

actually that is totally wrong, and where the second movie screwed up on

To many people assume that because einstein defined existance to have a MAXIMUM of 10dimensions that it must have 10 dimensions.

Einstein duality of time predicts three possible outcomes of attempting to travel back into time and change the past
if there are only 4 dimensions of existance then you will not be able to change anything, your actions will either be responsible for causing the event, or you will simply fail to make the change.

The past is the past and your actions in the past already happened.
OR put another way , effect preceeds cause.

the second possiblity is that paradox effect would cause a collapse of all space and time, a shattering of all existance.

The third possiblity only happens if there are more then 4 dimensions and that is the creation of alternate realities.

[fuzebox]

The storyline in T1 about John Connor sending someone back to impregnate his mother and thus father himself is pretty frustrating, but it's got nothing on T2:

Cyberdyne finds the terminator hand, and uses it to design the terminator? So technology from the future gets sent back in time to invent the future technology? I guess they also did this in Star Trek IV, but it's frustrating every time.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

actually that is totally wrong

Oh really? Maybe you need to brush up on your theoretical physics.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_paradox
Multiple universes hypothesis:
"Another hypothesis is that there are an infinite number of universes, one for each possibility. Here, should the time traveler kill his grandfather, one universe would have a live grandfather, and another universe would have a dead one."

"Another theory concerning the classic grandfather paradox is that such an event would create a new universe, one in which the aforementioned deed was committed. This would not affect the committer's universe, nor the committer himself."

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
"The specific term "multiverse" was coined in 1895 by psychologist William James. In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternative universes", "quantum universes", "interpenetrating dimensions", "parallel worlds", "alternative realities", "alternative timelines", etc."

3. Or how about the Everett-Wheeler model of quantum physics also known as the "Many Worlds Interpretation"?

You were saying? Or merely expressing your opinion?

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by fuzebox

The storyline in T1 about John Connor sending someone back to impregnate his mother and thus father himself is pretty frustrating, but it's got nothing on T2:

Cyberdyne finds the terminator hand, and uses it to design the terminator? So technology from the future gets sent back in time to invent the future technology? I guess they also did this in Star Trek IV, but it's frustrating every time.

that the point the story was never supposed to have a sequel
it was a single self contained story
reese said they destroyed the time machine after they sent him back
the nuclear storm was supposed to happen at the end of the movie

They made all kinds of money with the first movie and they tacked on a sequel which screwed up the whole premise with the ending (if they had prevented skynet reese could not have been sent to the past, ergo john conner should have disappeared)

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Darkland

Oh really? Maybe you need to brush up on your theoretical physics.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_paradox
Multiple universes hypothesis:
"Another hypothesis is that there are an infinite number of universes, one for each possibility. Here, should the time traveler kill his grandfather, one universe would have a live grandfather, and another universe would have a dead one."

"Another theory concerning the classic grandfather paradox is that such an event would create a new universe, one in which the aforementioned deed was committed. This would not affect the committer's universe, nor the committer himself."

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
"The specific term "multiverse" was coined in 1895 by psychologist William James. In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternative universes", "quantum universes", "interpenetrating dimensions", "parallel worlds", "alternative realities", "alternative timelines", etc."

3. Or how about the Everett-Wheeler model of quantum physics also known as the "Many Worlds Interpretation"?

You were saying? Or merely expressing your opinion?

did you even read what i said

did you even read what you quoted.

it saying the exact same thing i have been saying just differently (10 dimension = alternative theory)

The first movie was a 4 dimensional construct, it was designed to meet the first condition of enstiens duality of time expression.

The fact that the universe did not pop out of existance the second the terminator entered the past, ment that it was destined to fail/cause the problem that it was trying to solve.

it the primary example NOT "Alternative" so yes you are 100% wrong when you said "that the only way this could really happen ..."

[mikesinner]

It's all based on fantasy. You have to go with it. We will never be able to time travel or visit planets outside our solar system. It's just no possible even with advanced technology but it makes a good movie.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

did you even read what i said

did you even read what you quoted.

it the primary example NOT "Alternative" so yes you are 100% wrong when you said "that the only way this could really happen ..."

Yes and I simply added to it because I failed to realize you were saying my theory about the movie was wrong.

And I am NOT wrong really, well I am because it cannot happen at all for this simple reason:

The future can not precede the past. How could Kyle be sent back to father John if he wasn't there to do it during the original timeline? It doesn't matter how many timelines there are, it just can not work out the way they have it in the story. Period.

Look at it this way. John is suppossed to have been born before Kyle. So say Kyle was born in 2000. In the following years he grew up, survived judgment day, and joined the resistance. From that timeline, which is the only one he can leave from, how was John ever born since he can not exist with out Kyle? John can't send him back if he doesn't even yet exist on that original timeline.

That was my point.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Persius

The whole plot of the movie doesn't make sense (time travel)

What I don't understand is that Kyle Reiss was sent from john connor from the future to
protect sarah connor and impregnate her creating John connor. the future leader of the resistance.

How is he sending Kyle ? How does that make any sense he should not be even alive? Who is his father if he is sending kyle reiss?

WTF i hate how they throw in time travel and then do whatever the fuck they want and say oh its time travel it makes sense....

that was not the only close loop thing, john conner learned all the skills he used to win the war from his mother, she didn't have any of those skills, and only got them because she was hunted by the terminator ("get up soldier").

The entire movie was a closed loop story.

instead of cause preceeding effect as would happen if time travel was impossible
effect can preceed cause.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Darkland

Yes and I simply added to it because I failed to realize you were saying my theory about the movie was wrong.

And I am NOT wrong really, well I am because it cannot happen at all for this simple reason:

The future can not precede the past. How could Kyle be sent back to father John if he wasn't there to do it during the original timeline? It doesn't matter how many timelines there are, it just can not work out the way they have it in the story. Period.

Look at it this way. John is suppossed to have been born before Kyle. So say Kyle was born in 2000. In the following years he grew up, survived judgment day, and joined the resistance. From that timeline, which is the only one he can leave from, how was John ever born since he can not exist with out Kyle? John can't send him back if he doesn't even yet exist on that original timeline.

That was my point.

no you are totally wrong, the grandfather paradox has two solutions (4d vs 10d)

in a 10d solution (yours) the future exist even if the terminator killed johns mother so he can just say fuck it blow up the lab and go on his merry way. Sure an parallel universe exists where he is dead and the machines won, but that universe exist anyway.

the 4d solution says you can't kill the grandfather, and that could only happen two ways the terminator is destined to fail on it own (same results as multiverse fuck it blow up the lab)
or the time travel event causes the current timeline (the movie)

The only way the movie happens is if
1. it is a 4d universe
2. effect preceeds cause (which is possible under duality of time theory).


there is no such thing as a closed loop in a multiverse by definition they are opposite solutions to the grandfather paradox.

[CarlosTheGaucho]

You know, I've studied a little bit of technical stuff at the university.

Even I studied physics / maths / quantum physics etc. and I enjoyed it - I still believe that If you watch a movie, you should plug off and have fun.

[voa]

Its movie mate doesnt need to had sense

[cam_girls]

John was born in say 1984
Reese was born in say 2000

There is no way John could be Reese's son until after the trip back in time.
So the only conclusion is Reese was not John's original father, and they
changed history. Lucky Sarah didn't have a girl!

But there was one man who taught us to fight, to storm the wire of the camps, to
smash those metal motherfuckers into junk. He turned it around.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by cam_girls

John was born in say 1984
Reese was born in say 2000

There is no way John could be Reese's son until after the trip back in time.
So the only conclusion is Reese was not John's original father, and they
changed history. Lucky Sarah didn't have a girl!

But there was one man who taught us to fight, to storm the wire of the camps, to
smash those metal motherfuckers into junk. He turned it around.

the only reason you think that cause must preceed effect is because you precieve time as moving forward. the duality of time theory (time flows backwards) which is necessary for time travel to exist, means that relationship is reversed effect can preceeds cause.

If time is a closed loop the begining and the end are the same place.

The concept has been around since early greek methology, although it was based on prophecy not time travel, the knowledge of the future (prediction) causes the behaviour that creates that future.

think of it this way, if there were no alternate realities, and the 4th dimension was the upper bounds of all existance (one of the possiblities of Enstiens theories) then there is no change possible, the past has already happened including everything you did/will do in the past.

[Klen]

It's a temporal paradox C,which is very often used in sci-fi but i don't like it because it doesn't have any sense.
Let say you walking and suddenly someone come to you and say how he need to kill you because you screwed something in future.You usually wont screw future,but since that person come to you,you start to think about it and then in the end you really screw future.

[Zorgman]

No wonder people in here say sales are low. Your taking all your time talking about time fucken travel.

Stop day dreaming and get back to work..

[StuartD]

Originally Posted by Zorgman

Stop day dreaming and get back to work..

All work and no day dreaming makes you no fun to be around.

[Scott McD]

Originally Posted by fuzebox

Cyberdyne finds the terminator hand, and uses it to design the terminator? So technology from the future gets sent back in time to invent the future technology?

Yup! Things that make ya go, hmmmm...

[dready]

Time travel is always a mind fuck, but in the case of the Terminator franchise, they suggest that all these things that happen in the past, do change the future somewhat. The date of judgement day shifts, or John has a different father, but still grows up to be the leader, etc. The time line is altered, but not radically.

[StuartD]

Originally Posted by fuzebox

Cyberdyne finds the terminator hand, and uses it to design the terminator? So technology from the future gets sent back in time to invent the future technology?

I've recently gone back to read the DC One Million series about Superman, Batman, etc in the 853rd century (roughly what year it would be if DC was to hit their 1,000,000th issue) and in it, the worst super villain of their time is a super computer that sends a virus back in time to the 21st century.
The only way to stop it is for Superman, Batman, etc to build a super computer that the virus will be attracted to and thus the super villain will be born.

So it's even worse than the terminator hand. This friggin thing sent a virus to force his own enemies into creating him, the virus all goes to him and kick starts his artificial intelligence... ensuring his own "birth".

[pornguy]

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

It requires a suspension of facts and reality - its entertainment...its not supposed to make total sense.

Thank you.

[Tom_PM]

"effect" can preceed "cause". In fictional time travel scenarios.

[Twistys Tim]

One of the biggest problems with the Terminator narrative, is that all evidence of the machines were destroyed and the man (Dyson) who would would invent SkyNet in the future died before he could invent it. So in the universe that Sarah / John Connor existed in in T2, the SkyNet would not exist, thus negating the need for John had to send back Reiss (his father) to save Sarah from a machine that could not exist.

However -- if the machines did not exist there would be no need (or capability) for Reiss to travel back in time, and John would not exist.

[Tom_PM]

Thats why you have to accept that effect can preceed cause when it comes to time travelling stuff.
Causality or whatever the hell.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Twistys Tim

One of the biggest problems with the Terminator narrative, is that all evidence of the machines were destroyed and the man (Dyson) who would would invent SkyNet in the future died before he could invent it. So in the universe that Sarah / John Connor existed in in T2, the SkyNet would not exist, thus negating the need for John had to send back Reiss (his father) to save Sarah from a machine that could not exist.

However -- if the machines did not exist there would be no need (or capability) for Reiss to travel back in time, and John would not exist.

exactly which is why i keep saying that T2 is the worst movie ever
it screwed up a perfectly closed loop story of the original movie
and messed up the history enough that they had to produce a really crappy sequel t3 just to get it back on track so it all made sense.

T3 suckage is all T2 fault.

[Twistys Tim]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

exactly which is why i keep saying that T2 is the worst movie ever
it screwed up a perfectly closed loop story of the original movie
and messed up the history enough that they had to produce a really crappy sequel t3 just to get it back on track so it all made sense.

T3 suckage is all T2 fault.

Yep -- the whole narrative of the movies is kinda whack.

Dyson invents machine > machine take over world > man beats machine in future > machine goes back through time to kill Sarah Connor > man beats machine in the present > remains of machine are preserved and given to Dyson > all evidence of machine destroyed > Dyson dies before inventing machine = no machine

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Twistys Tim

Yep -- the whole narrative of the movies is kinda whack.

Dyson invents machine > machine take over world > man beats machine in future > machine goes back through time to kill Sarah Connor > man beats machine in the present > remains of machine are preserved and given to Dyson > all evidence of machine destroyed > Dyson dies before inventing machine = no machine

but if you take t2/t3 out of the storyline it is a perfect closed look

john conner leads the resistance to victory -> skynet creates timemachine -> skynet sends a terminator back in time to kill johns mother -> john sends kyle back to protect his mother -> kyle fucks sarah conner -> kyle protects sarah conner from the terminator -> john is born -> back to the begining

one perfect circle.

i wrote 2 fan fic scripts for the next two movies in the series , which stayed thru with the closed loop story line.
i mentioned it a couple of years ago on another board and everyone said they like my version better.

[Penthouse Tony]

Originally Posted by fuzebox

The storyline in T1 about John Connor sending someone back to impregnate his mother and thus father himself is pretty frustrating, but it's got nothing on T2:

Cyberdyne finds the terminator hand, and uses it to design the terminator? So technology from the future gets sent back in time to invent the future technology? I guess they also did this in Star Trek IV, but it's frustrating every time.

The fact that the hand was left over from Terminator 1 was the reason that in Terminator 2 a terminator from the same time in the future was more advanced and able to change shapes and become liquid. The technology time line was sped up since they had the advanced hand earlier than was meant to be.

[Penthouse Tony]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

exactly which is why i keep saying that T2 is the worst movie ever
it screwed up a perfectly closed loop story of the original movie
and messed up the history enough that they had to produce a really crappy sequel t3 just to get it back on track so it all made sense.

T3 suckage is all T2 fault.

Yeah T3 was needed so they could make T4 and also the TV series. Basically they were saying that destiny will happen no matter what and all T2 did was delay judgment day but it was still going to happen no matter what. What I didn't like about that was they were still saying that John Connor would be the leader even though everything was delayed years and he also became a drug addict.

What I did like about T2 was how they took the villian from T1 and were able to make him into the hero for T2 so flawlessly. It's something that I don't think any other movie franchise has ever done.

[Twistys Tim]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

but if you take t2/t3 out of the storyline it is a perfect closed look

john conner leads the resistance to victory -> skynet creates timemachine -> skynet sends a terminator back in time to kill johns mother -> john sends kyle back to protect his mother -> kyle fucks sarah conner -> kyle protects sarah conner from the terminator -> john is born -> back to the begining

one perfect circle.

i wrote 2 fan fic scripts for the next two movies in the series , which stayed thru with the closed loop story line.
i mentioned it a couple of years ago on another board and everyone said they like my version better.

That is not the perfect circle, as there are oddities with how John would have been fathered by Reese in the original timeline.

John could not have existed in the future prior to him sending Reese (his father) back to save Sarah -- as Reese's time travel was the first instance of time travel, and prior to this event Reese only existed in this timeline as a child, adolescent, young man, and then friend of John.

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by Twistys Tim

That is not the perfect circle, as there are oddities with how John would have been fathered by Reese in the original timeline.

John could not have existed in the future prior to him sending Reese (his father) back to save Sarah -- as Reese's time travel was the first instance of time travel, and prior to this event Reese only existed in this timeline as a child, adolescent, young man, and then friend of John.

I tried to explain that but his come back was that I only believe in 10-dimensions, which I never stated anywhere, when I specifically referred to multiple if not infinite time lines.

You can not get the egg before the chicken.

The only way his comments work is if the entire timeline is a closed loop cycle with a separate force or control that has already predetermined all events no matter what point on the timeline you exist. That would mean there is no such thing as free will and makes all the actions in the movie pointless.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by Darkland

You can not get the egg before the chicken.

Just wanted to say Eh? on that line.

Now continue on with your movie/time travel debate. I am cool with both enjoying a movie and also talking about its issues after the fact. Not like movies have never inspired real technology or people to study/become a scientist latter on.

[GTS Mark]

[Darkland]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Just wanted to say Eh? on that line.

Now continue on with your movie/time travel debate. I am cool with both enjoying a movie and also talking about its issues after the fact. Not like movies have never inspired real technology or people to study/become a scientist latter on.

Ummmm... You have never heard of the expression? And I am not referring to anything in evolution or the stupid real world debate on it. What I mean is you can't get a chicken until one lays an egg. In this case John is the egg and won't exist unless Kyle creates him.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by Darkland

Ummmm... You have never heard of the expression? And I am not referring to anything in evolution or the stupid real world debate on it. What I mean is you can't get a chicken until one lays an egg. In this case John is the egg and won't exist unless Kyle creates him.

Yes I have.
You explained yourself, carry on.

Everyone was just getting so technical and all.

[Twistys Tim]

Originally Posted by Darkland

I tried to explain that but his come back was that I only believe in 10-dimensions, which I never stated anywhere, when I specifically referred to multiple if not infinite time lines.

You can not get the egg before the chicken.

The only way his comments work is if the entire timeline is a closed loop cycle with a separate force or control that has already predetermined all events no matter what point on the timeline you exist. That would mean there is no such thing as free will and makes all the actions in the movie pointless.

Biggest problem with multiple timelines / universes idea is this; In the future, SkyNet would have known that sending the machine back in time to kill Sarah Conner would not effect change on it's current predicament. SkyNet would have understood that killing Sarah Conner in the past would not kill John Conner in the present according to the multiple timeline theory -- and a machine as powerful as SkyNet (which could invent a time machine) would certainly understand that the fact that if it was defeated by humans in the present, it would means that it could not change that fact by attempting to change the past.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by Twistys Tim

Biggest problem with multiple timelines / universes idea is this; In the future, SkyNet would have known that sending the machine back in time to kill Sarah Conner would not effect change on it's current predicament. SkyNet would have understood that killing Sarah Conner in the past would not kill John Conner in the present according to the multiple timeline theory -- and a machine as powerful as SkyNet (which could invent a time machine) would certainly understand that the fact that if it was defeated by humans in the present, it would means that it could not change that fact by attempting to change the past.

It was a hail mary pass and I suppose it was operating off of a theory, just so happens the theory would of been wrong.

[gideongallery]

Originally Posted by Twistys Tim

That is not the perfect circle, as there are oddities with how John would have been fathered by Reese in the original timeline.

John could not have existed in the future prior to him sending Reese (his father) back to save Sarah -- as Reese's time travel was the first instance of time travel, and prior to this event Reese only existed in this timeline as a child, adolescent, young man, and then friend of John.

Originally Posted by Darkland

I tried to explain that but his come back was that I only believe in 10-dimensions, which I never stated anywhere, when I specifically referred to multiple if not infinite time lines.

You can not get the egg before the chicken.

The only way his comments work is if the entire timeline is a closed loop cycle with a separate force or control that has already predetermined all events no matter what point on the timeline you exist. That would mean there is no such thing as free will and makes all the actions in the movie pointless.

both of you are missing the point in 4 dimensional space time there is no alternative timeline
there is only one time line.

Under that situation traveling forward in time (how we do) results in cause always preceeding effect.
Reverse the direction of time (time traveling into the past) effect always preceeds cause.

There is no two ways about it.

The only way you can get an alternative reality is by creating a perpendicular dimension vtime= 5th dimension)


watch this video to understand 10d existance.

the point is Predestination paradox is the opposite solution (vs alternative timelines) to the grandfather paradox.

You can't have both, and since the movie clearly had a predestination paradox you can't have alternative timelines.

Temporal mechanics 101, which unfortunately the writer of the second movie did not understand, hense the biggest fuckup in franchise history.

[Twistys Tim]

Originally Posted by gideongallery

both of you are missing the point in 4 dimensional space time there is no alternative timeline
there is only one time line.

Under that situation traveling forward in time (how we do) results in cause always preceeding effect.
Reverse the direction of time (time traveling into the past) effect always preceeds cause.

There is no two ways about it.

The only way you can get an alternative reality is by creating a perpendicular dimension vtime= 5th dimension)

watch this video to understand 10d existance.

the point is Predestination paradox is the opposite solution (vs alternative timelines) to the grandfather paradox.

You can't have both, and since the movie clearly had a predestination paradox you can't have alternative timelines.

Temporal mechanics 101, which unfortunately the writer of the second movie did not understand, hense the biggest fuckup in franchise history.

And this has been practically proven by whom...?