Clearly marked pre-checked cross sales?

[After Shock Media]

OK, Not OK, Depends and I will explain?

[NickSunshine]

pre checked cross sales are part of the internet.

i accept them as such.

reading is fundamental.
people should do it before they pull out their wallets.

[Iron Fist]

No No no no NO NO no no NO NO NO NO NO.

[RedSkorpio]

if the user has the option to unchecked it . yes , other wise NO

[tony286]

if its so great it should be able to be left unchecked unless the customer wants to check it.

[NickSunshine]

Originally Posted by tony404

if its so great it should be able to be left unchecked unless the customer wants to check it.

:golfclap

[Tat2Jr]

Cross sales are fine as long as they are NOT pre-checked. Make it an offer they can't refuse, and the surfer will check it.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by Tat2Jr

Cross sales are fine as long as they are NOT pre-checked. Make it an offer they can't refuse, and the surfer will check it.

works for a little company called amazon.

[Nicky]

Depends, and I will explain.

If I am promoting a high paying PPS program I know they will have that and that is ok by me.

If I am promoting a revshare sponsor that I want to earn long time reccuring with I would never accept that they have pre-check x-sales unless I am getting revshare from them. I know some revshare sponsors have x-sales and don't pay the affiliate for them, I will not promote that.

[- Jesus Christ -]

I have returned to GFY after many years to say they are NOT ok.
There is no further need for this poll.

Bless you all.

[GigoloShawn]

Originally Posted by Nicky

Depends, and I will explain.

If I am promoting a high paying PPS program I know they will have that and that is ok by me.

If I am promoting a revshare sponsor that I want to earn long time reccuring with I would never accept that they have pre-check x-sales unless I am getting revshare from them. I know some revshare sponsors have x-sales and don't pay the affiliate for them, I will not promote that.

I'm behind Nicky's ideals on this one.

It's generally not possible for a program to credit someone for cross sales on a revshare basis, since doing so would require manipulation of the NATS database and require an extended program with postback from a third party; which is kind of out of the TOS, and difficult to implement. If someone's messing with the DB, they will generally know how to shave, and may very well be doing so.

However, it's usually fairly easy to turn on or off the checkboxes, depending on the program type.

[mynameisjim]

Clearly marked and in plain view is alright with me. Personally I wouldn't do it, but I don't see it as scammy.

I still say, cross sales are a great business tool. But when you make a page specifically to hide them, you're no better than a crook who cons old ladies over the phone.

[Doctor Dre]

Actually I voted yes, but I meant to vote no...
cross sales are bad for this industry, or any other.

[webmasterchecks]

you cross the line once you go from opt-in, to opt-out. At that point you change from offering something that somebody can decline to putting something in somebodys cart when they didnt ask for it, i believe in relationships, so i wouldnt do that myself

however, once you go that route, its just a matter of degree of "how much you want" and that is a function of many different things youve seen here over the past few months. do you want just 30% or so you want 98% of people taking the crossell? well that depends on how you set it up.

but let me make clear im not complaining, i understand that prechecks fuel many of the revenue around here, there would be 25% less revenue floating around here if it wasnt for prechecks

its a hot topic and people have a tendency to complain about them, but i dont know many that are willing to take the earnings cut that comes along with them all going away.

[tony286]

People in this industry dont seem to remember. Without the customer we are nothing.

[seeric]

above the submit button and clearly stated in text that is easily readable with rebilling information.

no problems whatsoever. been happening for a decade or more in adult.

[aico]

someone actually emailed me yesterday asking if my site was really only $30, because they joined a site in the past that said $30, but charged them much more, and he didn't want to join if that was going to be the case.

[RedSkorpio]

Originally Posted by GigoloShawn

I'm behind Nicky's ideals on this one.

It's generally not possible for a program to credit someone for cross sales on a revshare basis, since doing so would require manipulation of the NATS database and require an extended program with postback from a third party; which is kind of out of the TOS, and difficult to implement. If someone's messing with the DB, they will generally know how to shave, and may very well be doing so.

However, it's usually fairly easy to turn on or off the checkboxes, depending on the program type.

indeed it is very hard to credit someone for x sells i don't see it happening in fact I can't think of any program doing it.

its a hot topic and people have a tendency to complain about them, but i dont know many that are willing to take the earnings cut that comes along with them all going away.

[Iron Fist]

Originally Posted by webmasterchecks

you cross the line once you go from opt-in, to opt-out. At that point you change from offering something that somebody can decline to putting something in somebodys cart when they didnt ask for it, i believe in relationships, so i wouldnt do that myself

I wish to subscribe to your magazine.

[HollywoodChris]

I was booking an airline ticket this week and right before I hit " Confirm " I was presented with the prechecked option to join their program for a fee and the second box was travel insurance for a fee.

Kind of reminds me of how I bought a camera from amazon.com and almost ended up with an extra battery, film, lights, and a bag to carry it in.

Luckily I can read so I have no problems with it

Oh, were you talking about the adult business?

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by HollywoodChris

I was booking an airline ticket this week and right before I hit " Confirm " I was presented with the prechecked option to join their program for a fee and the second box was travel insurance for a fee.

Kind of reminds me of how I bought a camera from amazon.com and almost ended up with an extra battery, film, lights, and a bag to carry it in.

Luckily I can read so I have no problems with it

Oh, were you talking about the adult business?

In all fairness if we are really doing are jobs properly. They technically should be as hard as a rock, dick in hand, credit card next to keyboard and more than likely having the reasoning of a 5 year old in front of a candy store with a few bucks. They just want in and reading may not be their top priority at the time, let alone fine print.

In other terms, how fucked would many of us be if some woman had some fine print tattooed above her shaved pussy? Sure it is clearly there but really...

[jscott]

On pps it should be fine, on revshare it is only fine if affiliates get 50% of the cross sale

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by tony404

People in this industry dont seem to remember. Without the customer we are nothing.

Unless you're earning from scamming him. Then it's fine. Until he's gone. Then those who can't make it without scamming can go back to flipping burgers.

You can't compare cross selling on a main stream site or product with porn. It's apples and carrots.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

In all fairness if we are really doing are jobs properly. They technically should be as hard as a rock, dick in hand, credit card next to keyboard and more than likely having the reasoning of a 5 year old in front of a candy store with a few bucks. They just want in and reading may not be their top priority at the time, let alone fine print.

In other terms, how fucked would many of us be if some woman had some fine print tattooed above her shaved pussy? Sure it is clearly there but really...

Very true, if we do our jobs right they should be too busy, horny and distracted to notice all the cross sales. Great if you're living off a client who only buys a product once. Then you can always turn him into a client like that. Maybe you can do it once, twice, thrre times. How long before he says "Tubes don't fuck me." ?

On pps it should be fine, on revshare it is only fine if affiliates get 50% of the cross sale

So it's fine if you're earning from it today.

And fuck tomorrow.

[jscott]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

So it's fine if you're earning from it today.

And fuck tomorrow.

Ok, let me clarify, I HATE pre-checked cross sells, they are horrible, almost scammish, I promote mostly sites that are fair, and gives the customer what they intend to purchase rather than hidden costs, it's 100% deceptive.

So, I'll take that back, i HATE THEM very much...... BUT on business side, the sponsors that pay revshare and dont give credit to affiliates for pre-checks are scamming both the customer AND the affiliate.

Oh, and I always prefer promoting revshare, with no pre-checks, and I will NEVER support tube sites, if I ever know of any traffic trades on my sites with supporters of illegal tube sites I will cut the trades immediately


(Sorry i'm kinda all over the place on this subject, it's just so complicated though)

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by jscott

On pps it should be fine, on revshare it is only fine if affiliates get 50% of the cross sale

LOL...why should I get a share of that as an affiliate?

I send traffic to a site to revshare in a membership to THAT site. Once MY surfer goes onto THEIR join page and joins...He is no longer MY surfer. He is now THEIR customer.

All of this talk is horseshit. Every business in the world does the equivalent of pre-checks. As one of the people in this thread already stated...you get hit with all kinds of things when you buy a plane ticket for instance.

Deceptive wording and "scare tactics" drive MILLIONS of dollars in the car industry for backend "product" And yes, every one of you has paid thousands and thousand of unnecessary dollars everytime you bought a car.

And insurance?

Precheck cross sales are no more a part of an affiliates money than all those pop ups were for the first 10 years of this business. I send traffic to join a SPECIFIC site. I get a HUGE percentage of that sale and all rebills for that sale.

And how did I do it? I put up a fucking link. Wow.

The paysite owner? Well, if he's like me...he shot everything himself. Found talent himself. Paid for everything. Edited himself. Designed and updated the site himself. Rendered all the video for hours. Uploaded each scene (a few hours everytime) and takes ALL the legal risk and social risks for his family.

And in the end...as an affiliate if I send a sign up to a site that costs $34.99 I just made $17.49! End of story.

As a paysite owner...if an affiliate sends me a sale....I pay him 17.49, I then pay $6.12 for the biller. And then I make $11.38 off of that sale. And oh, by the way...I host everything and pay for that on TOP of my production costs, time spent, 2257 costs, and legal costs.

And that doesn't take into account the fact that if there is a chargeback....I get nailed an ADDITIONAL $55 by the bank. Oh, and all the surfers that get declined? Guess what? I get charged a fee for THAT as well.

Many of you on here are only seeing things from an affiliates view. That's understandable. I did too from 1998 to 2007.

But now that I'm on the other side of it as well and working 100 X harder than I ever did when I was Ampland...I understand a lot more things. Yes, my affiliate work with my tgps still takes 4 to 5 hard hours of very efficient work on my part. But the paysite? It's damn near a 24 hour job.

And knowing that, gives me a different perspective on pre-checked x-sells.

Also keep in mind, that they have been around for a long time. And quite frankly it wasn't until Mitch from Netbilling came on GFY and made a big post touting them about 6 months ago that it even became an issue.

At that point, a lot of affiliates who are relatively new (weren't around in the 1990's) started screaming that it was somehow "cheating" and "shady" and destroying the so-called "industry".

But it's been there all along. You just didn't know about it. Just like you didn't know that you didn't really need that $1,500 worth of extra warranty you bought with your new car. Or that flight insurance that you paid extra for on your airline ticket. Or those little extra things on your phone bill that you don't really have to have, but unless you call them and opt out you get charged for...and I could go on and on and on. It's how business is and always has been done...long before the internet even existed.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by NickSunshine

pre checked cross sales are part of the internet.

i accept them as such.

reading is fundamental.
people should do it before they pull out their wallets.

Unfortunately, I agree with this. IF clearly marked.

Credit card companies, forum new member applications, software programs,... just about everything has some kind of 'pre checked' something.

While not all are sales related, or going to result in hundreds of dollars in bullshit you did not sign up for. You do get pre checked horseshit for more spam, you name and info sold off to other companies, and so on. You have to read, and uncheck all that shit.

Even the credit monitoring services I use for the three bureaus have it. Sadly, it's a case of reading. Keep in mind, I do not have a dog in this fight. We do not promote such things, nor have a program doing this.

It's simply one man's observation.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by jscott

Ok, let me clarify, I HATE pre-checked cross sells, they are horrible, almost scammish, I promote mostly sites that are fair, and gives the customer what they intend to purchase rather than hidden costs, it's 100% deceptive.

So, I'll take that back, i HATE THEM very much...... BUT on business side, the sponsors that pay revshare and dont give credit to affiliates for pre-checks are scamming both the customer AND the affiliate.

Oh, and I always prefer promoting revshare, with no pre-checks, and I will NEVER support tube sites, if I ever know of any traffic trades on my sites with supporters of illegal tube sites I will cut the trades immediately


(Sorry i'm kinda all over the place on this subject, it's just so complicated though)

Thanks for clearing that up. But there have been other replies that say it's fine so long as they get paid for it.

Let's get this straight and speak honestly. We as an industry have had 10 years, or more, to impress on the surfer that buying porn from the Internet is the best way. In that 10 years we have probably taught him that buying porn on the Internet is a mugs game. Which is what people were saying 8 years ago when I first posted here.

Cross sales are just one of the reasons we are all now struggling, and if you're not you would be doing a lot better if we had willing customers. There are other reasons we don't control the porn supply business, they all boil down to the same thing. For a product others can give away for free which satisfies the consumer we charge too much for too little.

But of course we all know it's not our fault, the blame is with everyone else.

[HomerSimpson]

Not Ok!
Not Ok!
Not Ok!

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

. For a product others can give away for free which satisfies the consumer we charge too much for too little.
.

Gotta disagree on that 100000% $34.99 for exclusive niche content on a handmade site? Too much? lol That's about half a tank of gas for 24/7 access to our site and all the sites on our network.

It would take a LOT more than that just to get a couple of hours in at the Adult Book Store. Just because there are people stealing content doesn't mean that exclusive sites with direction and focus and a proven market are overpriced at all. This shit is a fucking bargain.

Just a few years ago, you had to:
1. Live in an area that ALLOWED adult book stores.

2. Actually drive to that book store and take a chance of your fellow citizens seeing you.

3. God help you if you had some kind of crazy fetish and/or wanted to see gay or trannies.
You would have been too embarrassed and scared to buy that shit.

4. One video was more than a months' subscription to a paysite. And the paysites update all the time with new scenes.

Paysites are not overpriced. We are a fucking bargain. And a complete revolution in sexuality as well.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Gotta disagree on that 100000% $34.99 for exclusive niche content on a handmade site? Too much? lol That's about half a tank of gas for 24/7 access to our site and all the sites on our network.

It would take a LOT more than that just to get a couple of hours in at the Adult Book Store. Just because there are people stealing content doesn't mean that exclusive sites with direction and focus and a proven market are overpriced at all. This shit is a fucking bargain.

Just a few years ago, you had to:
1. Live in an area that ALLOWED adult book stores.

2. Actually drive to that book store and take a chance of your fellow citizens seeing you.

3. God help you if you had some kind of crazy fetish and/or wanted to see gay or trannies.
You would have been too embarrassed and scared to buy that shit.

4. One video was more than a months' subscription to a paysite. And the paysites update all the time with new scenes.

Paysites are not overpriced. We are a fucking bargain. And a complete revolution in sexuality as well.

We may think so, though what we think is not important. It's what the surfer thinks that is important. Have we taught him to agree with you or have we taught him something else?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

We may think so, though what we think is not important. It's what the surfer thinks that is important. Have we taught him to agree with you or have we taught him something else?

My bank account and membership list says they agree with me. But that's always been so in every business. The cream rises.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Thanks for clearing that up. But there have been other replies that say it's fine so long as they get paid for it.

Let's get this straight and speak honestly. We as an industry have had 10 years, or more, to impress on the surfer that buying porn from the Internet is the best way. In that 10 years we have probably taught him that buying porn on the Internet is a mugs game. Which is what people were saying 8 years ago when I first posted here.

Cross sales are just one of the reasons we are all now struggling, and if you're not you would be doing a lot better if we had willing customers. There are other reasons we don't control the porn supply business, they all boil down to the same thing. For a product others can give away for free which satisfies the consumer we charge too much for too little.

But of course we all know it's not our fault, the blame is with everyone else.

Speak for yourself chief.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Robbie

My bank account and membership list says they agree with me. But that's always been so in every business. The cream rises.

Spoken like a true king.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Spoken like a true king.

You know me! The "king" of stupid shit.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Robbie

You know me! The "king" of stupid shit.

Ok,... the "bro" of drinks.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Ok,... the "bro" of drinks.

As long as I'm "buying" them at a sponsored open bar
And I will have a pre-checked redbull with my jaegermeister along with a hidden pre-checked michelob ultra and a double hidden pre-checked sumpin'-sumpin' in my pocket
heh-heh

[Hank_Heartland]

Originally Posted by webmasterchecks

you cross the line once you go from opt-in, to opt-out. At that point you change from offering something that somebody can decline to putting something in somebodys cart when they didnt ask for it, i believe in relationships, so i wouldnt do that myself

That says it best

[After Shock Media]

more votes please.

[Bugbee]

OK when clearly marked, I always use the Gas station analogy, I fill my tank with gas (currently every 8 days to the tune of around $75 bucks) I obviously want a receipt otherwise my accountant will kick my ass, the machine asks me "would you like a car wash?" OH SNAP what's that an unchecked x sale, a savvy one but still an unchecked one fortunately I say NO thanks then say YES I want a receipt.... this is th OIL companies real big fuckers in my book! I am a fan of the unchecked x sale I have been doing this for a long time and am a big fan of giving the customer what they want and "deserve" pre checked x sales pretty much suck for the consumer, and lots of times for the company that cannot retain the consumer more than 30 days, some of my most profitable accounts are the ones that promote unchecked x sales, especially if your members area does not suck.....

that is all...

[commonsense]

Like most polls here, most voting are not in the business anyways so whats the point?

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by commonsense

Like most polls here, most voting are not in the business anyways so whats the point?

Don't let logic get in the way of drama that's about 10 years too late (since pre-checks have been around for a long time)

[Why]

Originally Posted by RedSkorpio

indeed it is very hard to credit someone for x sells i don't see it happening in fact I can't think of any program doing it.

if you cross sell to another site you control or own, its not too hard.

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Don't let logic get in the way of drama that's about 10 years too late (since pre-checks have been around for a long time)

This was not meant to be a drama thread. I obviously am not in this for sig views. I also started another poll around same time in regards to pop up blockers.

The answer to the poll I was seeking is when you combine the two polls and look at the info honestly.

[aico]

Originally Posted by commonsense

Like most polls here, most voting are not in the business anyways so whats the point?

You don't care what the surfers think about it?

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by HollywoodChris

I was booking an airline ticket this week and right before I hit " Confirm " I was presented with the prechecked option to join their program for a fee and the second box was travel insurance for a fee.

Kind of reminds me of how I bought a camera from amazon.com and almost ended up with an extra battery, film, lights, and a bag to carry it in.

Luckily I can read so I have no problems with it

Oh, were you talking about the adult business?

always amusing to watch somebody try to justify and rationalize what they know is wrong - i don't believe in 'karma' - i do believe that people who know better and do bad things find a way to punish themselves eventually

[biskoppen]

There's no other reason in the world for a prechecked cross sale than to cheat the surfer, none....

[RP Fade]

I think Xsales are ok if:

- they are clearly visible and legible
- they clearly show the dollar amounts
- they are easily cancellable
- the time period of the xsale is at least 3 days
- they offer the surfer good value (ie, $1-$2 to a big or well known site with good content)
- the xsale site is legit (ie, wont rape the surfer with hidden 'upgrades' and delivers on promises)
- the rebill amount of the xsale is reasonable
- they are controlled by the processor (ie, paycom or ccbill)
- the surfer gets a confirmation email for the xsales

For example, we buy clean, visible xsales, both pre and un-checked with practically no restrictions, limits or hidden fees. We believe our sites speak for themselves with tons of exclusive videos, photos and extra features. If they like it, they will renew. If they don't they can easily cancel, no questions asked. You dont have to fuck the surfer over to make profits on xsales. Could we be making alot more, of course we could. But that's a choice..

Also, I've kept some stats on Xsales. People say surfers don't pay attention but they do. I've monitored and tracked various outgoing Xsales to various sites/programs. Some sites perform significantly better than others on Xsales, all things being equal and no specific niches. So it's either domain name, brand name or the surfer actually typing in the site and taking it a look.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

This was not meant to be a drama thread. I obviously am not in this for sig views. I also started another poll around same time in regards to pop up blockers.

The answer to the poll I was seeking is when you combine the two polls and look at the info honestly.

I just think this is another subject that the consumer has no business being privy to. As I have said in other threads...you don't see car dealerships telling all their customers about the thousands of dollars that they "whack" you for on "product" in the backend. You don't see retail stores explaining that their "50% sale" is really 50% off of the 300% markup they did in the beginning. You don't see the phone company, American Express, the airlines, the grocery store, etc., etc. explaining how they really make a good profit. But yet here on GFY it seems to be standard practice to try and sabotage our own business.

Bottom line is x-sells have been around for a long time. And there would be no uproar about them even now if Mitch hadn't come on here a few months back and made a dumb post about it. My icq lit up with people asking me "what is he thinking" when he did that.

So now all these surfers on GFY are commenting on it like it's something new.

Well, again...here's a newsflash. Pre-checked x-sells are nothing new. They aren't destroying the business. Every major company in this business can prove to you that chargebacks are not an issue because despite all this theorizing...the reality is that the majority of people do NOT get angry about it.

Yes, there will be a vocal minority. Yes, there will be an angry email here and there. But the vast majority not only don't get angry...but continue the membership for many months.

There are a LOT worse things going on right now than x-sells. x-sells have always been a part of this business...and one way or another the things that are being called "shady" and "deceptive" have always been a part of all business. See my examples above.

And NO, I'm not gonna talk about things on here. But I can tell you about the past: Aggressive dialers that cost surfers THOUSANDS of dollars just by visiting a website and having a dialer downloaded on them without their knowledge and disconnecting them from their service and re-connecting them at several dollars a minute while they surfed. Or how about the old redirection of urls via geo-ip location? Or the never-ending pop-ups that would actually keep coming so fast that they would burn up all the ram in your machine and cause you to have to hard boot your machine?

THOSE were the real shady things that happened online. Not only in adult but in every online business.

Pre-checks? They are simply a way to make money that should NEVER have been discussed on a public forum with surfers involved. As I have said...you don't see other business revealing their business secrets. But here we are.

And even though you weren't looking for drama...you kinda had to know that since x-sells are the current "flavor of the month" for the doom and gloomers to spout as the "death of the industry" that there would be drama.

I'm starting to believe that the "bad" tube sites and torrent sites are putting people up to making these statements on GFY. lol Think about it: There are actually ignorant people on here who are making the claim that tubes and torrents haven't hurt anybody, but pre-checked x-sells are destroying the business.

Again...pre-checked x-sells have been around for years and years. Everything was fine. Tubes and torrents started posting up entire members areas for free. Sales declined.

Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

[DBS.US]

How many time has someone sent you cash for a membership because they didn't want problems using a credit card? I have seen it many many time