For all of you who are crying about pre-checked X-SALES being shady

[DWB]

If you are not willing to do what I am going to propose, then you need to stick a sock in it and pipe down.

Lets talk about REBILLS...

How many of you site owners and webmasters count on many customers forgetting about their memberships and sticking around on a site?

A lot of you do. That is just as sneaky as any other tactic being used.

"No" you say?

So then do this from tomorrow on:

Create an email that is automatically sent to every member when it comes time to be rebilled. In that email there is a link that they MUST CLICK in order to remain a member of your site. Something along the lines of "CLICK HERE TO CONTINUE YOUR MEMBERSHIP" and then they MUST click it to be rebilled.

Then watch a large percent your rebills go right to the shitter.

If you're not willing to create such a email system to continue the membership for your costumers who forget about their memberships, then you have no right to jump on the anti-x-sale crusade that has come about as of late.

"But they know they are choosing a rebilling option you say? It's not the same!"

Sure. And the consumers can also read and know how to scroll around a page. So again, if you don't count on forgotten memberships, just create this simple mail and system to be fair and honest so you don't cheat a single member who forgets about his memberships. And of course, those members who are sticking around because your content rocks, then they will click the link and all is good. Nothing lost.

Something tells me not a single one of you are willing to do this simple and very effective tool for making 100% of your members aware of their continuing membership and billing.

Do this and then you can throw all the stones you want.

[Amputate Your Cock]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

Do this and then you can throw all the stones you want.

Funny you say that. You didnt answer me in your tube thread where i asked you if you own illegal software and or mp3's.

[Nicky]

Ok I'm creating it now. NOT

[GigoloShawn]

Better yet, why not just use Amazon's Donate button? "If you like this porn, please considering paying $1 for the hosting fees incurred!"

[DWB]

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Cock

Funny you say that. You didnt answer me in your tube thread where i asked you if you own illegal software and or mp3's.

Didn't see it.

I buy my software and being that I spent the majority of my life in the music industry, I buy music out of respect for the artists.

With that said, I'm no angel. But I'm also not flipping out over the topic at hand.

The only thing I have had a problem with in the industry is the following: People who shoot minors and people / companies that steal content or promote companies that steal content. As a content producer, I am always going to side with other content producers on the topic of content theft.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by GigoloShawn

Better yet, why not just use Amazon's Donate button? "If you like this porn, please considering paying $1 for the hosting fees incurred!"

I see a lot of escort sites with donation buttons. Too funny.

[GigoloShawn]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

I see a lot of escort sites with donation buttons. Too funny.

Wow. I'd put that on par with a donate button on a torrent tracker.

[Amputate Your Cock]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

I buy my software and being that I spent the majority of my life in the music industry, I buy music out of respect for the artists.

Ok fair enough and good to hear.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Cock

Ok fair enough and good to hear.

I bought a laptop in Thailand last year and come to find out the OP was a cracked version of XP. It kept having problems and when I took it in to get fixed I was informed it was cracked.

Not that I have a soft spot for Microsoft, but the cracked XP was causing so many problems I just bought a real XP and had it installed. Every since then I don't even mess with cracked software. Not that I am against jacking software if one were inclined to do so, but it's that I don't have time to deal with shit that doesn't work. I need my shit to work right now, every day.

[L-Pink]

Re-bills rely on the customer forgetting to cancel something he has already purchased/joined. Not fraud ....... my 2 cents.

[BVF]

I didn't see this thread before I answered this in the other thread so here it is.

Originally Posted by BVF

Of course you hope you get rebills...However, there is a statement BEFORE the join button that says you will be rebilled....Then they click OK and then it happens...

Come on man...You're reaching like a muthafucka saying if you don't email members and remind them of a rebill, it's akin to a hidden crosssale....Nobody in their right fucking mind is going to buy that story...

I'm seriously surprised that you started a seperate thread based on this severely flawed analogy.

[bbm]

I am crying too

[BVF]

Then on top of that, maybe people don't want to be emailed about that site after they got the original sale email...So why in the hell am I going to go out of my way to harvest emails and then send them shit about a porn site?......

So basically it would be invading their privacy....Have you ever emailed your customers out of the fucking blue for no reason? I sure don't....

[robfantasy]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

If you are not willing to do what I am going to propose, then you need to stick a sock in it and pipe down.

Lets talk about REBILLS...

How many of you site owners and webmasters count on many customers forgetting about their memberships and sticking around on a site?

A lot of you do. That is just as sneaky as any other tactic being used.

"No" you say?

So then do this from tomorrow on:

Create an email that is automatically sent to every member when it comes time to be rebilled. In that email there is a link that they MUST CLICK in order to remain a member of your site. Something along the lines of "CLICK HERE TO CONTINUE YOUR MEMBERSHIP" and then they MUST click it to be rebilled.

Then watch a large percent your rebills go right to the shitter.

If you're not willing to create such a email system to continue the membership for your costumers who forget about their memberships, then you have no right to jump on the anti-x-sale crusade that has come about as of late.

"But they know they are choosing a rebilling option you say? It's not the same!"

Sure. And the consumers can also read and know how to scroll around a page. So again, if you don't count on forgotten memberships, just create this simple mail and system to be fair and honest so you don't cheat a single member who forgets about his memberships. And of course, those members who are sticking around because your content rocks, then they will click the link and all is good. Nothing lost.

Something tells me not a single one of you are willing to do this simple and very effective tool for making 100% of your members aware of their continuing membership and billing.

Do this and then you can throw all the stones you want.

exactly...

[klaze]

Guys i'd like you to meet my new wife.

[EmpireAutopilot]

Seriously people,

Are people like dirtywhiteboy the norm in this biz or just an exception? If the majority of people are so fucking retarded to think that the OP makes any sense it's truly sad.

[Jarmusch]

Recurring membership clearly visible from the drop down menu

vs

'special offers' with vague *smallprint at the bottom of the page


Yeah, you're right they're pretty much the same.

[Barefootsies]

I typically send out at least one e-mail a month to current members.
That is about as close as most are going to get to your proposal.

[mynameisjim]

DWB, I'm going to taunt you just because I like seeing your avatar.

But as I mentioned in another thread, if all rebills were because people forget to cancel, why do shitty sites never rebill and good sites rebill for months and months. If your argument was correct, every site would rebill pretty much the same, but they don't.

But if you post a few pics of that girl in your avatar I'll sell out and agree with you.

[faxxaff]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

If you are not willing to do what I am going to propose, then you need to stick a sock in it and pipe down.

Lets talk about REBILLS...

How many of you site owners and webmasters count on many customers forgetting about their memberships and sticking around on a site?

I think it's a total different pair of shoes. Most adult Xsales are with hidden small print, without a contact or url to terms, cancelling policy, etc. Rebills from billers like CCBill are clear cut and a cancellation link is provided on the signup form. Many programs offer single billing as an alternative to recurring. (Mainstream companies use xsales, but they observe consumer rights as long as they are not located in seedy offshore locations)

But it basically comes down to the ethics of the individual person who runs a program. I think this is what we need to talk about. People who cheat the surfer are unethical jerks! They should be driven out of the industry. Unfortunately, policy makers are unable to make a difference between good and bad adult webmasters and therefore all of us will take a beating for being in this business when the shit hits the ceiling!

[DWB]

Originally Posted by BVF

I didn't see this thread before I answered this in the other thread so here it is.

I'm seriously surprised that you started a seperate thread based on this severely flawed analogy.

As I stated before, yes the surfer knows he is buying a recurring membership but I'm talking about the customers who FORGET that they joined. They join the site and plain old forget, as many of them do. Of course NOT ALL OF THEM, but a good percent I'm sure of.

These are the rebills I'm talking about. The forgotten ones. Are you willing to cancel out all of your forgotten rebills?

That is my point.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by faxxaff

I think it's a total different pair of shoes. Most adult Xsales are with hidden small print, without a contact or url to terms, cancelling policy, etc. Rebills from billers like CCBill are clear cut and a cancellation link is provided on the signup form. Many programs offer single billing as an alternative to recurring. (Mainstream companies use xsales, but they observe consumer rights as long as they are not located in seedy offshore locations)

Of course I'm not talking about normal rebills here. They are clearly marked. I'm talking about once a customer forgets he joined your site, as many of them do. It doesn't matter what he once read, he has now forgotten and the site owners will take every penny he has until he gets wise to it again. That is what I'm talking about. Forgotten rebills.

I've yet to talk to a webmaster who is willing to cancel any rebill where the user has not logged into the site in over 30 or 60 days. None of us would do that. Not one. But that's being just as sneaky as well placed x-sales if you ask me.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by mynameisjim

But as I mentioned in another thread, if all rebills were because people forget to cancel, why do shitty sites never rebill and good sites rebill for months and months. If your argument was correct, every site would rebill pretty much the same, but they don't.

But if you post a few pics of that girl in your avatar I'll sell out and agree with you.

I'm not saying all. I'm saying SOME. But we all know, there is a fairly large percent of guys who do forget. Just look at your logs to see when all of your members last logged on. You then see who has forgotten about the membership.

I don't even know who this girl is, but I love her.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by BVF

Then on top of that, maybe people don't want to be emailed about that site after they got the original sale email...So why in the hell am I going to go out of my way to harvest emails and then send them shit about a porn site?......

You would mail them to remind them they are a member to your site and that they must approve their rebill.

You let them know when they sign up that they will be sent this mail every month for their security.

They already get an auto mail when they join your site. So they get one more every month asking them if it's ok to charge their card again.

It's a pretty simple and straight forward idea. But none of you will do it who are complaining about x-sales. Not one. No matter how simple of an idea it is to keep your members from forgetting about their membership and you taking more money from them than you should, it's never gonna happen. Because it's justified already as an approved scam simply because there is a drop down menu or text that tells them UP FRONT, that it's a rebilling membership. X-sales have the same text, it's just not in plain view for some resolution sizes.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

Re-bills rely on the customer forgetting to cancel something he has already purchased/joined. Not fraud ....... my 2 cents.

If you are set up to auto pay your gas bill at your apartment and you move. You then start paying on a new gas bill in a new city, all the while the old bill continues to bill your card because you simply forgot to call them to cancel.

They bill you for 4, 5 or 9 months. They won't return your money because as far as they see it, you didn't contact them to tell them to turn off the gas, so they never did. You now have to pay for this unfair bill for all those months.

How pissed off would you be?

You would say almost per word something along the lines of "They totally fucked me!" as you were telling the story to your family and friends.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by EmpireAutopilot

Seriously people,

Are people like dirtywhiteboy the norm in this biz or just an exception?

If you mean people like me who call things out for what they really are and refuse to suck someones bro cock or kiss ass and play nice so others will play with us, we are an exception.

This entire industry is shady. It was built on shady. It will die shady.

Not one single tactic anyone has ever used or ever will use is any more or less shady or sneaky than the other. You do business with people who are conducting shady or sneaky business right now as I type this, but you won't ever dare to call them out. None of you will call out your own friends who you know is doing something a little below board or promoting the very programs you stand in line to attempt to crucify.

You can see the very people who are talking shit about this topic "bumping" the very companies threads when it comes time for contests or to kiss ass when they open a new site. Now you want to jump on this band wagon. Whatever.

"It's scamming the customer" so many of you cry as you work day and night to help feed those who are addicted to the very porn we profit from. How many of your customers are addicted to porn? I'm sure it's a staggering number. But we don't want to talk about nasty stuff like that, do we? But we're not that type of person to do such a thing are we? Naw. Not us. We are legit pornographers. Yea!

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

"It's scamming the customer" so many of you cry as you work day and night to help feed those who are addicted to the very porn we profit from. How many of your customers are addicted to porn? I'm sure it's a staggering number. But we don't want to talk about nasty stuff like that, do we? But we're not that type of person to do such a thing are we? Naw. Not us. We are legit pornographers. Yea!

You mean having something like this posted on your sites does not count?


All of the performers in the videos and images mentioned on this site are over the age of 18, have consented to perform in the videos and images of their own free will, and believe you have the right as a consenting adult to watch other consenting adults do what they wish to share with you.

This sites operators as well as all performers in the videos and images contained here believe that role playing, acting out fantasies, and or engaging in sexual fetishes when all parties involved are consenting legal adults and no person is doing something that they do not wish to do is part of a healthy sexual lifestyle that one has the right to participate in.
These videos and images are meant to serve as sexual aids and provide sexual education, as well as sexual entertainment for adults.

Nothing on this site is meant to condone or encourage the practice of unsafe sex. We urge you to always protect yourself and your partner by always practicing safe sex.

We would like to remind you that no always means no even with a spouse or loved one. A person may remove consent at any time during a sexual encounter and you must respect and go along with their wishes.

If the viewing of adult erotica and or subject matter is in anyway interfering with your day to day life or is causing harm to a significant other or family member we strongly encourage you to seek counseling. We believe adults have the right to view adult erotica if you are a legal adult but do understand that some people may or could become addicted to such behavior and any addiction is unhealthy and should not go untreated.

[Taass]

Your logic pretty much compares to..

If I found a 100$ bill on the street and pick it up..

..Then I'm as bad as the guy who steals a 100$ bill out of someones pockets.


And what you want me to do about it is to go up and down the street shouting "WHO LOST THIS 100$ BILL !!!"

[DWB]

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

You mean having something like this posted on your sites does not count?


All of the performers in the videos and images mentioned on this site are over the age of 18, have consented to perform in the videos and images of their own free will, and believe you have the right as a consenting adult to watch other consenting adults do what they wish to share with you.

This sites operators as well as all performers in the videos and images contained here believe that role playing, acting out fantasies, and or engaging in sexual fetishes when all parties involved are consenting legal adults and no person is doing something that they do not wish to do is part of a healthy sexual lifestyle that one has the right to participate in.
These videos and images are meant to serve as sexual aids and provide sexual education, as well as sexual entertainment for adults.

Nothing on this site is meant to condone or encourage the practice of unsafe sex. We urge you to always protect yourself and your partner by always practicing safe sex.

We would like to remind you that no always means no even with a spouse or loved one. A person may remove consent at any time during a sexual encounter and you must respect and go along with their wishes.

If the viewing of adult erotica and or subject matter is in anyway interfering with your day to day life or is causing harm to a significant other or family member we strongly encourage you to seek counseling. We believe adults have the right to view adult erotica if you are a legal adult but do understand that some people may or could become addicted to such behavior and any addiction is unhealthy and should not go untreated.

Of course that does not count. But I think you are being sarcastic. Never can tell with you.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by Taass

Your logic pretty much compares to..

If I found a 100$ bill on the street and pick it up..

..Then I'm as bad as the guy who steals a 100$ bill out of someones pockets.

No. The logic is that all of adult is dirty or sneaky in one form or another.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

If you are not willing to do what I am going to propose, then you need to stick a sock in it and pipe down.

Lets talk about REBILLS...

How many of you site owners and webmasters count on many customers forgetting about their memberships and sticking around on a site?

A lot of you do. That is just as sneaky as any other tactic being used.

"No" you say?

So then do this from tomorrow on:

Create an email that is automatically sent to every member when it comes time to be rebilled. In that email there is a link that they MUST CLICK in order to remain a member of your site. Something along the lines of "CLICK HERE TO CONTINUE YOUR MEMBERSHIP" and then they MUST click it to be rebilled.

Then watch a large percent your rebills go right to the shitter.

If you're not willing to create such a email system to continue the membership for your costumers who forget about their memberships, then you have no right to jump on the anti-x-sale crusade that has come about as of late.

"But they know they are choosing a rebilling option you say? It's not the same!"

Sure. And the consumers can also read and know how to scroll around a page. So again, if you don't count on forgotten memberships, just create this simple mail and system to be fair and honest so you don't cheat a single member who forgets about his memberships. And of course, those members who are sticking around because your content rocks, then they will click the link and all is good. Nothing lost.

Something tells me not a single one of you are willing to do this simple and very effective tool for making 100% of your members aware of their continuing membership and billing.

Do this and then you can throw all the stones you want.

so you say tricking them is better?

[TheDoc]

Welp, I better start calling up my cable, phone, cell phone, internet, vonage, keyword services, music services, sat radio, hosting, registrars, ect... and tell them to cancel my rebilling service, as it's clearly fraud since they are banking on me forgetting about it.

Most sites have honest and clear info about the membership and the rebill options. With that, many sites offer non-recurring memberships from 1-6 month range. And most all year memberships do not rebill.

You have a problem with shady sites, doing hidden cross sales and/or pre-checked cross sales. Which has nothing to do with the majority.

Personally, I'm not worried about, less than 2%, of the programs globally doing shady cross sales.

[Taass]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

No. The logic is that all of adult is dirty or sneaky in one form or another.

Think that goes for most business actualy, not just adult.

Still, there's a big difference from sneaky to cheating !

[After Shock Media]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

Of course that does not count. But I think you are being sarcastic. Never can tell with you.

Why wouldn't it count, I am talking about it. Hell there is even more in my FAQ.

I know we are not angels though. I just do draw my own lines at one point and if others want them farther out than mine so be it. I know we (pornographers) are sort of lumped together yet honestly most of us run separate businesses. Law makers or credit card companies may fuck with us as a whole but under most circumstances what you do on your site or sites has nothing to do with what I do on mine and my business much.

Do I think hidden pre checked cross sales are shady, very much so. How do I personally define hidden? Stats tell me most common screen resolution and if at that resolution I can not see them without hunting for them they are hidden.

Now I know mainstream uses them, rarely hidden though at least from places I go. Though I do not recall even seeing some pre checks in mainstream that would add so much in charges at once. It would be like an airline having a pre checked auto rental to come close to same charges.

As for legality of them, well fuck. I guess that depends on way to many factors and a big one being jurisdiction of the site operator or where it is perceived to be doing business at. I am sure if I bothered to look I could find some way someone could get into trouble via two laws off the top of my head. I just will keep my mouth shut about those though as there is a fucking witch hunt going on right now and cross sales are the new Satan and last thing anyone really needs is some GFY'er with time on their hands fucking shit up for everyone. Hell didn't someone already paste some email they were sending to Visa?

[DWB]

Originally Posted by grumpy

so you say tricking them is better?

I'm saying it's all the same but nobody has a problem with letting members forget about their rebills.

[DWB]

Originally Posted by Taass

Think that goes for most business actualy, not just adult.

Still, there's a big difference from sneaky to cheating !

Sure, ALL business.

But what is cheating?

Is it cheating to clearly list an x-sale even if it's below the viewers window in some cases based on their screen resolution. Or is it not canceling their memberships after the customer forgot about it? Or is it selling your members email database to another company so they can spam them? Or is it misleading tours that trick the surfer into thinking there is a lot more content inside the site than is already there? Or is it webmasters who promote sites like AFF who clearly steal content? Or was it all the bros who were using shit like Zango (and dialers before that) back in the day and then forgiven for it after sucking a few dicks at a show and all was forgotten about? What exactly is cheating?

You can list a 1000 shady things going on in the industry. So why is one worse than the other? That is my point.

[DWB]

I gotta shoot to do. Be back later to field the comments from those of you who live in denial.

[kmanrox]

consider all of yourselves, Schooled.. Courtesy of DWB.

[Taass]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

Sure, ALL business.

But what is cheating?

Is it cheating to clearly list an x-sale even if it's below the viewers window in some cases based on their screen resolution. Or is it not canceling their memberships after the customer forgot about it? Or is it selling your members email database to another company so they can spam them? Or is it misleading tours that trick the surfer into thinking there is a lot more content inside the site than is already there? Or is it webmasters who promote sites like AFF who clearly steal content? Or was it all the bros who were using shit like Zango (and dialers before that) back in the day and then forgiven for it after sucking a few dicks at a show and all was forgotten about? What exactly is cheating?

You can list a 1000 shady things going on in the industry. So why is one worse than the other? That is my point.

As for not chasing your members to see if they are still members for liking the site or if they just have bad memory, I can't see the cheating in that.. Actually I can't see anything Shady in it eigther.. They bought a recurring subscription that they need to cancel to end that subscription.. recuring subscriptions are prety basic deals well known to people when buying, both in adult and mainstream, and are also clearly described to the members when buying (at least when using CCbill), and easy to cancel.. so there's no tricky part to it and nothing shady or cheating.

As for the rest of your examples.. in my book, those are all cheating.

[Dennis69]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

customers who FORGET that they joined.

But thats the point... they KNOW they did join... so it wasn't forced down there throat like x-sells

[The Duck]

fuck off with your x-sells

[BVF]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

As I stated before, yes the surfer knows he is buying a recurring membership but I'm talking about the customers who FORGET that they joined. They join the site and plain old forget, as many of them do. Of course NOT ALL OF THEM, but a good percent I'm sure of.

These are the rebills I'm talking about. The forgotten ones. Are you willing to cancel out all of your forgotten rebills?

That is my point.

Dude, how the fuck am I supposed to know who forgot?....Plus I know of customers who have been around for YEARS and only rarely login...But you had better believe I get an email from them if they get a new computer and forgot their password....Sometimes people just want to have access when they want it...

It still doesn't matter because unlike the cross sales, I TOLD THE CUSTOMER before he clicked the "submit" button.....You're asking me to go inside of people's minds and decipher their wants and intentions....

It's a ridiculous flawed argument....Why are you continuing with it?....You know better than to be this dense....

You're starting to sound like the "gideongallery" of crosssales.

[tranza]

Yes, just like every month you must sign a new contract with your phone company, your electricity company, your gas company and so on.

This is the dumbest thread I've read over GFY in a long while.

[tony286]

DWB knows the difference. When they sign up they know they are getting a recurring membership and the other is based on the surfer not looking under sign up button. Its short sighted and in a weak economy to bang the ones willing to pay isnt smart.

[KMR Stitch]

any program that pays over the % where the customer is not profitable on the first charge from the customer does and should care about rebills. anyone who does pps. anyone who wants to make money.

[Makaveli]

I think tranny cock is making you stupid, son.