Ron looking back at my choice of the word scam. From an industry perspective I can see how most people would not see it as a scam at all. Looking at it from a surfer's perspective I think a large number of them would describe it as a scam. When a surfer clicks the first join page which says Get a 3 Day Free Trial Here and then they hit this page which gives them the free trial plus an offer BELOW the submit button where they are getting billed $1.37 I think a decent percentage of them would describe this as a deceitful.

i think your problem with prechecked crosses, is also with 90% of the pay per signup companies online. Singling out weg and using the word scam and i think your thread looked more like it had an agenda if anything.

sorry, i clarified in a follow-up once it was pointed out:
http://www.gfy.com/showpost.php?p=13...&postcount=149

I doubt there is one single surfer who would see this sign up page and not call it a scam, whether he noticed it as such before, or after he signed up.

Most are going to be thinking they are getting what was advertised... a free trial, and then they get a bill. The chargebacks must be insane.

Considering that this is an industry board, I think you should use the industry's perspective. If you want to use a surfer's perspective, one that you're merely guessing to be true, you should post it on a surfer's board somewhere.
:winkwink:

I'm not sure where you got the idea that it was ok to call another company's PERFECTLY LEGAL business model a scam but I think you should have chosen another word.

IMO, it's a good idea to be familiar with the surfers perspective.

I think I've made it blatantly obvious in this thread that I don't know shit about high risk processing. My chargeback rate is 0.25%. I don't know anything about milking surfers for every penny possible. I know many of you may call me an idiot for running my company this way but I truly care what my members think. Their satisfaction is my number 1 concern. I do alot of things that most people in this thread would never dream of. I listen to what my members want. As an example I spend over a $1,000,000 a year on content for one site (Twistys). With all that said I don't believe I ever claimed to know how to run a high risk company. The same way I'm sure Brad, 12clicks and Weg would never consider spending the amount of money and time that I spend on keeping my members happy.

The surfers that join Twistys are treated like kings. I would say it's safe to say that 99.9% of people that join Twistys would be willing to join another adult site based on their experience with us.

Now, whether you guys care or not, the truth is the same can't be said for the surfer that joins this Weg (or any company with this structure) site and it's cross sold sites.

As an industry that is consistently under fire it seems to me like it would make sense for us give people reasons to continue to trust and do business with us. Instead, as an industry, we not only give them the gun we provide them with the ammo to come after us and regulate our business for us.

If I made this post on JBM I'd agree with you. But this is gfy :winkwink:

Fuck the surfers perspective, it's the customers perspective that matters.
The opportunity of getting into multiple entertainment sites for FREE or a trivial cost adds tremendous value to the consumer.

What's up with forcing the customer to pay 24.95 up front? Where's the value in that?

Consumers are savy, and they recognize in droves what represents a better value.

I remember as a kid those cd magazine ads...that would give ya 12 free cds for a penny... I love that shit as a consumer, did brick and mortar stores like those campaigns?

I think a lot of you guys forget that this goes on in every industry online. Take a look at the mainstream dating industry someday, now that's got some shady business tactics. Here are some things I've seen in mainstream:

-Forcing members to fax their cancellation request in. This was done by a very popular dating site in mainstream.

-Putting callers on hold for over a half hour when trying to cancel their account (AOL).

-Making users go through 10 pages to cancel their account and on the final page completely reverse the words around and confuse the user into continuing his membership. (Classmates.com)

Heck, a couple years ago I signed up for the MLB Access plan online that gets you all the baseball games. Apparently it was "auto-renew". So I went to call them to cancel it and the line was literally busy non-stop for 3 weeks. I eventually got through and was put on hold. I was at work and left the thing on speaker as I sat for 3 hours before they hung up. I eventually had to charge it back and file a report with the BBB to even get them to take me off the auto-renew. This isn't some scummy porn company, it's Major League Baseball.

Here is a good article from PCWorld that talks about the tactics of some major companies.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,12...s/article.html

Companies do this all over. Whether it's Fortune 500 or some offshore porn company. It's a balance of risk/reward. Sure it sucks from a consumer standpoint, but it's happening all over. If it wasn't for this stuff, affiliates wouldn't be getting paid $35 for a $3 trial.

Keep fucking the surfer and stop crying that ratios go down and down right ;)) its amazing to see the (type of) complaints we hear from our visitors on a lot of well known sites. Only so much for long term huh

Good one. I needed a good laugh. :1orglaugh

tip to our pre checked friends, put the text next to the pre checked box in yellow. Works wonders on a white page.

I agree 100000% The difference with us is the government and religious right want to put an end to our industry. They have no problem with MLB Access, AOL, or even Microsoft for that matter.

And where is WegCash on this one?

see sig!!!

It's amazing how many people in this industry get so caught up in their own shit that they can't even see straight and make themselves look like idiots.

I'll agree that using the word scam was harsh. I didn't have to go that far.
I'll agree that i don't know shit about high risk processing.
I'll agree that our industry isn't the only industry in the word to use cross sells and deceptive ways of getting people to spend more.

I agree to all that. But all of you guys coming out here says that these cross sells are value added and I should STFU because this WEG site is offering far more value than I am are just making yourselves look stupid. It's one thing to debate whether cross sells are good for the business or not. But don't try spin this around and say that "pre-selected" cross sells are value added. If they were so value added there would be no need to pre select them.

That isn't even addressing the quality of the sites they are cross selling to.

I'm all heart mother fucker...say it with me
https://youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA

I did just call my surfer a client. It may be priceless to you but it definitely has paid off HUGE for me.

Exactly. People forget that adult companies should be staying 2x as clean as the next company.

Hi Roger. I have to disagree with you. I think you are looking at this from a very different point of view. You see you get pussy on your own. Porn is a supplement to your sex life. I don't think that is the case for all porn surfers. I think alot of porn surfers may not be getting sex on their own and may rely heavily on porn for their sexual release. As a result paying for porn may not be something that bothers them as much.

this thread is fucking HILARIOUS to still be talking about WEG. sad state of affairs.

I see your point and I understand why some guys might need to pay for it. I do get the urge to check some porn out myself, but I still dont think its a long term decision more of an impulse and spur of the moment decision from seeing a hot chick on tv or online etc.

When people evaluate there bills at the end of the month, the first thing to go would be a recurring porn membership no matter how good it is I think.:2 cents: not to say they wont be back again later LOL. thats where having good content comes into place.

But the goal is to get them in the door first

So does anyone know what WEG stands for?

you fuck the surfer and they will not pay to fuck themselves anymore:2 cents:

I'm sure a $24.95 charge they agreed to at the start gets "evaluated" a lot better than 3 surprise $40 charges :winkwink:

Great thread.

Also
Now in days I shoot exclusive and have a mix of old school and new school style of thinking. kinda met in the middle. we have some cookie cutter sites and some exclusive sites that we shoot for in-house. to be honest retention is about the same across the board.

I love trials to get them in the front door and now I pride myself on a good members section that we update weekly to keep them retaining although I dont think it helps alot.

as for cross sales I think the surfer is savvy enough to notice it.

We all think we know what we are doing but I've been doing this now almost 11 years and I still have no hard answers Its a continous trial and error because we are dealing with so many types of surfers and the industry changes with all the new types of free sites etc.

Who knows what the price for porn should really be?

I can eat a steak for $10 bucks at sizzler or $30 at the palm it fills me up the same although one might taste a little better. the end result is the same I'm satisfied or pissed I just paid $30 for a steak that sucked LOL.

crazy thing is I still go back to both places

At the end of the day Porn is porn and Pussy is Pussy. unless your into S&M or something strange. what I'm trying to say is all it takes is one hot girl to get me off. Even if you update it all the time

Not really it could be for $9.99 and they would still cancel it. or the 9.99 sites would have taken off.

Its crazy cause people will pay $5 for a coffee everyday and fell good about it. with porn they feel dirty or think they dont need it when its time to pay.

They will always come back... Maybe not to the same site but they will be back:winkwink:. unless they find a free site that gives them what they need.

What needs to be done is limit the free hardcore or censor it Period.
No pink or cum shot for free unless they pay

shap, my objection is to the use of the word "scam"
you run your business one way, WEG does it a different way.
They're far more successful than you and are 100% legal.
you could have had this Convo without using the word scam

shap, my objection is to the use of the word "scam"
you run your business one way, WEG does it a different way.
They're far more successful than you and are 100% legal.
you could have had this Convo without using the word scam

Then I start a hardcore free site and steal everyone's traffic. You can't really stop the escalation :(

I agree. The use of the word scam was not needed.

I Agree and thats the problem we now face today. everyone trying to outdo the next with more free stuff:(

And that is why you have companies that use more deceptive marketing ways to get people in the front door of there sites. as long as its legal I dont care and I'm sure visa keeps a close eye on it.

We can all point the finger at eachother but it will never change

I see exactly where you're coming from. It's tough to say, but both sides of this argument are right. As someone mentioned earlier, you're in the paysite business, while others are in the processing/risk business. You make your money from rebills, they make their money from upsell/cross sells. It's two completely different business models, so it's not really fair to compare the two.

I do understand your position that this kind of stuff pisses off customers. It makes it harder to convert when there is a percent of the public that has been burned and are skeptical of joining a porn site again. It's also why you pay high processing fees.

But it's just business. There is nothing that can be said that will change how others operate. But speaking out and saying what you feel hurts your business is good. I've been surprised to see how many people who run sites like yours kiss the ass of people who are hurting their style of business.

that's called competition

aggressive and deceptive are two different things

it is only going to become more competitive on the free-site side. third-party billing only gives a stepping stone to new competition on the pay-site side. most will never figure out what they're doing enough to make real money these days. that is why companies who understand billing and risk management will continue to be the biggest and pay the most.

people can argue about the model all they want, that's the way it works for now. when it does change, the same people will still be on top of the game.

Good post Roger, no matter what the porn is, its still dick in pussy/ass/mouth... guy jerks off and wishes he didn't just spend that money.

There is no miracle porn that others don't have only select few have this wonder potion of porn...

going back to bed, will read when this thread hits page 10 again

Back in the day we even had a lot of live voyuer houses which we dont have today.
not much has changed like you said dick in pussy/ass/mouth the only differance might have been bigger hair :1orglaugh

I think the average membership trial is even about the same 2-3 months
then they try something new. unless you have a niche that no one else has might be longer then.

you might have a girl and guy I dont and visa versa so I doubt anyone has that magic potion LOL

Now about my business advice earlier on page 1...
Ya do not seem to know more than guys that have surrounded themselves with MBA's and great attornies, and excellent technologies in high risk processing, that have the money to put where it makes sense.

So basically you were talking out of your ass.
Again...
Mind your own is my advice Shap.

If you do not "Get it" maybe you should STFU before ya look even more retarded. There is a moethod and at the end of the game FREE TRIAL sites are no more of a scam than charging someone up front for a shitty site or even a decent site.

Your business model captures funds before a "Client" accesses the site. In my opinion YOU are more likely to suffer charge backs than Free Trial guys. Actually I know you would have more charge backs than the free trial guys.
For a fact.

Free Trial guys just offer more than you do and take the risk of giving free access to new members. Offering more sites is a Value add and people surfers do see the additional prechecks and yes they check some and uncheck others, they are not as stupid as you think.
Thats another fact.

I won't give ya anymore free advice other than get some education about the matter, because the guys you seem to be barking at got the education and the people around them that have an education as well to keep there business moving forward in the positive.

Whatever drugs you've been doing for the past 5 years they've definitely done their damage :disgust

AlienQ giving advice to people in this industry is like the local homeless guy giving stock tips to brokers.

LOL, well at least I am not the one to come calling a decent company a scam without understanding the business model.:1orglaugh

Now ya saying I do drugs. Nice.
I do not do drugs never have, ya think it takes drugs to call you an idiot?
Well it doesnt.:1orglaugh

Get over yourself.

C'mon people!?!?!?!

Do you really think most surfers don't uncheck the crosses if they don't want them?

Do you really think a large portion of the ones that don't uncheck them DON'T cancel all 3 memberships 2 minutes after joining?

Seriously, you can't be that naive!

It's a fucking numbers game!

For all the "surfers" that know the game and join and cancel in 2 minutes ... and WEBMASTERS STILL GET PAID $30 - $50 per sale!

For all the "friendly fraud" from surfers and surfers wives that say "I didn't/my husband would never join an adult site" ... and get refunds or charge back which WEBMASTERS STILL GET PAID $30 - $50 per sale!

... there has to be a balance that maintains profitability.

That balance may include a cross sell or two.

Some of you sit there behind your keyboard with all these accusations about how these companies take advantage of surfers YET you disregard the parasitic actions of freeloading join/cancel/friendly fraud surfers AND WEBMASTERS that want huge PPS $$$ before the program makes a profit.

If that's the way you feel then put your $$$ where your mouth is and ONLY promote 50/50 reveshare ... that's fair, right?

If 60+% of surfers take a $1.95 trial and cancel - you're cool with less than $1 per sale on 60+% of your traffic, right?

... or less than $12.50 on a $25 no trial join, right?

You can still profitably buy google traffic and submit passes on that money, couldn't you?

:thumbsup

See, but you won't do that! You won't because you don't want to be paid from every program like an annuity. You like your $$$ one or 2 weeks after the sale BEFORE the program can even make a profit. You won't because you'd go broke and have to find a real job because slingin' porn would NOT pay your bills!

Sure, there are some programs like Shaps, FTV, ATK and others where it might be worthwhile ... but the vast majority are not ... and you know it ... and YOU won't take that risk!

Yet, these companies are bad guys?

Moral of this diatribe?

Lots of hypocritical mu'fuckas in this business on both sides of the fence.

:2 cents:

So your saying the only way to make a dollar in porn is to screw people?