Ram, here's one bad list. Nothing official yet, though.

There are more look thru the thread.

I wonder how long until we get the MY LAWYER says you can't post like that.


Also thanks for finding a list that seems to be pretty true. Well forsure most of the companies have been mentioned before this type of business.

I see WegCash is on the list....?
First time I read bad stuff on them. I have not used there program in a few years....but there was a time when i use to make some real good cash with them.

(sorry, I can't automatically quote yet, but I think RawAlex is on the right track)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RawAlex said:
Add to this please: the "new" 2257 is very much more restrictive on the whole issue of "innocent hosts". I think that tube sites that manipulate, manage, or redistribute content on webpages they own and control will find themselves on the shit end of the stick. Accepting a file and then re-publishing it makes you a secondary producer, like it or not. So even if you can dance on the head of the DMCA pin, the reality is you still have porn and you don't have the documents - by definition, you have to treat each and every piece of undocumented porn as if it was CP until you have the documents to prove otherwise.

Tube sites will be the napsters of 2008. TOAST.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been following (skulking) all of the torrent-related threads for the past few weeks and I really think you're barking up the wrong tree. Even if we get every one of the "bad companies" to stop advertising on EVERY torrent site, realistically it will do very little to help the cause. Yes, it would be a show of solidarity, and that is a great thing, but the problem will remain unsolved. For every adult industry company that stops advertising on torrents, there will be another Sony, Healthy Choice, H&R Block, eBay, adinfinitum... to take their place.

And to all those brandishing witch hunt torches, how much of your house is made of glass? Karma is a bitch and we reap what we sow. How many of us can honestly say that we have paid for every software program and every font we use? Every muisc file we listen to? Every DVD and feature film we've watched? I know I can't. Funny how it all seems more important when the shoe is on the other foot. And you can bash me for speaking my mind, but that's the plain, ugly truth of the matter.

Now... HOW TO KILL A TORRENT

2257 seems like a good place to start. The biggest snafu is that it is US legislation and many of these torrent sites claim international amnesty. But for those who are based in the US, it seems like they should be held accountable as secondary producers to 2257 compliance. I am a GFY n00b, so I can't post links yet, but here's an excerpt from the US 2257 Code on the Cornell University Law School site:

"It shall be unlawful?
(4) for any person knowingly to sell or otherwise transfer, or offer for sale or transfer, any book, magazine, periodical, film, video, or other matter, produce in whole or in part with materials which have been mailed or shipped in interstate or foreign commerce or which is intended for shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, which?
(A) contains one or more visual depictions made after the effective date of this subsection of actual sexually explicit conduct; and
(B) is produced in whole or in part with materials which have been mailed or shipped in interstate or foreign commerce, or is shipped or transported or is intended for shipment or transportation in interstate or foreign commerce;"

Here's another excerpt from Wikipedia:
"The regulations define the terms "primary producer" and "secondary producer". A primary producer is defined in the set of rules as any person who actually films, videotapes, or photographs a visual depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct. A "secondary producer" is defined as any person who produces, assembles, manufactures, publishes, duplicates, reproduces, or reissues a book, magazine, periodical, film, videotape, or other matter intended for commercial distribution that contains a visual depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct. Different record-keeping requirements exist for primary versus secondary producers. One may be both a primary and a secondary producer."

It would seem to me that owners of torrent sites are definitely "transfering and reissuing sexually explicit video". While they point the finger at their users, THEY are providing the vehicle for transfer; the software and platform that facilitates the reissue of video content. If they are based in the US, we should be reporting them for violation of 2257 compliance. While there may still be some loopholes in the code that they can dance around, if we are vigilant and vocal, we could possibly make a dent. Put the issue in the public spotlight so that middle America can see what a farce these torrent sites are making of the mighty 2257 compliance. Maybe if we can put enough egg on the face of US bureaucracy, they will be forced to rattle their sabers and put the squeeze on some of the US-based torrents. It's our goverment too. Make it work for us... just make sure you have your own 2257 records in order. ;)

And yes, it will be much more complicated than that, but I think it's a worthwhile avenue to pursue. And if we gain any measure of success, we might be able to gain some traction and momentum to go after those torrents hiding acroos the big pond.

:2 cents:

p.s. the amount of bickering and name calling on this board is ridiculous.

A1R3K,
First off, thankyou for making this thread, timely to say the least.
As said earlier, I think its important to define your terms of reference ie "good" and "bad" is too subjective, and allows for companies and individuals to descend into pointing fingers as a means of settling scores rather than constructing a framework under which hard work and good business practices are rewarded.
Though straight-forwards theft maybe relatively easy to identify (and even remedy), there are many companies standing in the shadows that indirectly benefit from say, traffic from torrents. Rather like Kevin Bacon...how many degrees of separation might you consider? An example: A torrent site (with complete rips of all my sites) jam-hot.com was running ads for Xbiz Awards. These awards are sponsored by, amongst other companies, Epoch, who in turn, are the billing company for the ripped sites! When I pointed out to Epoch that they were sponsoring a company that was cannibalizing the industry it purported to support, they replied (in fairness, very pronto) that there was really nothing they could do. This was such a sad reply that even baby Jesus's puppy wept.
In the end I posted in a thread re Xbiz, and I now notice that the ads are gone. I'd like to think that there was a connection between posting about their ads and your stirring up a stink with regard to shady business practices. I cannot thank Xbiz for removing the ads because they shouldn't of been there in the first place. Infact my blood pressure soars at the idea that they made a conscious decision to advertise there. I think its important for sponsors to be more forceful with regard to where ads are placed...as in the real world, these peeps need to be aware that there are consequences for pissing on those who make them their living.
Enough!
And thanks again.

No lawyer can get involved when it comes from an opinion over a statement.

As I said these people are bad business decision makers, meaning in my mind they made a bad decision to become affiliated with such sites. I then show what sites they are affiliated with.

Wegcash is all over a lot of the torrent sites. Have been for ages.

Logistically we're in Montreal. We produce in LA and I fly in once in a while.

Very "SiMpLy" Stated.

I guess no one has the balls but me.

Bad Business List:

1. AFF (including Cams.com, Streamray, and the rest of their network of sites)
2. Fleshlight
3. AVN (AdBright)
4. Fling
5. NastyDollars (same parent company as Fling)
6. BangBros (same parent company as Fling)
7. HugeTraffic (same parent company as Fling)
8. Kink.com (KinkyDollars)
9. HornyMatches.com
10. TotemCash
11. The Free Speech Coalition

I just pulled my fling links/ads. I'm just a small fish though, but I'm always down to support a good cause.

very good post. i for one have learned from it.

Thank you :) and a bump for a good cause :thumbsup

i think some people should still try a little harder to actually understand HOW torrents work. these sites DO NOT host any porn files. all they host is a .torrent file that contains data. im not defending them by any means, simply stating some of the approaches stated in this thread are utterly useless because torrent sites are not actually doing anything illegal. they simply host files that teach your BT client how to find other BT clients that have the files that you want to download.

contrary to popular believe RapidShare.com is very easy to do deal with, i send them in excess of 1000 files per month that are from our producers and they are always removed within a few hours. yes its a pain in the ass to track these RS links down and report them.

A1R3K, EuroRevenue.com would like to be listed, we do not support illegal torrents. As well i can offer to help report stuff to rapid share as stated above i am already doing it on a regular basis and have located a lot of rather large RS link trading sites with many sponsors content on it.

logistepag.com is another good company that helps companies deal with piracy on RS and BT sites. maybe they should be contacted as well.

Torrents do much more than host a .torrent file. They faciliate the transfer, and coordinate the tracking of the data as it's distributed. The data is hosted on several machines but distribution is awarded based on the tracker determining what you can get, the speed you can receive the data, etc... You are rewarded for by the tracker currency. Ultimately, your ability to receive the file at all is completely up to the tracker. I'm sure there are a few RICO statues that could apply. Possibly even to those who help to monetize the distribution. Will the government choose to make an example out of someone? Homeland Security apparently applies and could step in with broad authority. Remember when the business owner in Oregon was forced to remove the Rubiks cube clone after Homeland Security determined there was an infringement?

Homeland Security - Keeping Americans safe from one fake Rubik's cube at a time. :\

Why not ask link list/tgp/mgp/tube/torrent sites to at *LEAST* add this to their rules.

"You must own and be able to produce on demand, license to publish all content included in your submission."

Exactly. I was on TorrentSpy last week and I got a popunder for NationalLampoon.com. The idea of them buying traffic for their website from a torrent site is ironic, but apparently they saw an opening. Does this mean the makers of other Hollywood films should be able to sue National Lampoon for supporting copyright theft?

Considering Photoshop costs $650, I think we know about what % of adult webmasters paid for it.

The vehicle for transfer is both the tracker and the users, which upload and download directly with each other. A lot of times the tracker isn't even affiliated with the torrent site itself. So you've got the torrent site just posting links to the tracker like a TGP posts links to a gallery.

To further complicate this, the guy running the tracker probably isn't even bound to 2257 since it's for commercial adult materials. Obviously there isn't professional commerce of any kind going on with the tracker.

Trading over torrents is just the 2007 version of trading through email attachments. I really don't think P2P adult porn trading is a priority for the FBI. So relying on them to shut down every torrent site is really reaching for the stars.

I bought my Photoshope from Adobe.com. Expensive, but this is not a hobby it's a business.

https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/750709-legal-shit-stupid-sob.html
https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/755391-stolen-content-mgreg-mojohost.html
https://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-business-discussion/750836-attn-mojohost-condone.html

cool thanks. :)

much appreciated.

also, to everyone posting, we all know what a shit sandwich this thing is, its confusing to say the least on all levels. it is that confusion and a few loop holes that allow this all to happen. those are the real issues. well, that and that fact that people who are supposed to support you fuck you by making money on your content by financing the piracy.

anyway, thanks for each and every comment, good an bad. :thumbsup

Hey, I fucking paid for it.
and dreamweaver, and flash, and.....

Was a crazy story, but a true one. HSA is massive. They went in her store, made her remove all of the Rubik's cube clones and waited til she finished. Then I think they found out later that they were mistaken.

reading now.

2257 is one of the major leveraging points of attack on the sites "redistributing" content.

First and foremost, I would like to express that I admire passion. I am a passionate guy myself. I fully understand the cause, the implications it has industry-wide, as well as how it can effect programs and webmasters alike.

I debated heavily as to whether or not to post in this thread, even in light of VG Content adding us to the bad business list. Taking that post into consideration along with the entire scope of the issue, I will respond honestly. Just the same that I have realized your perspective (as well as passion), I ask that you consider mine with similar respect.

The torrent issue is an issue that I fully comprehend, as well as empathize with. We don?t accept torrent or zango traffic; we never have. We have in fact taken private measures to prevent both methods of promotion. Assuming we haven?t because we don?t post about it on GFY is naïve. That said, we do depend on webmasters with watchful eyes to alert us with any infringements. We have never been slow to move on any complaints. The last time I looked, Wegcash has several representatives that are public, online the greater portion of both day and night, and more than willing to help. However, I see very few complaints regarding the issue.

While we all enjoy the fruits of a liberal industry that tends to allow for a pretty fun environment, when it comes to our business, we run it as professional as possible. Not only that, but we also have a long history of helping out this industry in times of need. We are likely one of the highest donating programs in the industry; however, we rarely do it in a public manner (with the acceptation of the Jim Guhn case). We conduct our business privately: We are, for lack of a better describer, an action-oriented program.

A1rek, I like you and I respect Shanes World as a program. I also understand why you are passionate about your cause. However, we handle our business differently. When and if we decide that we need to have something done about a torrent site, you can rest assured we will not make a post about it. We have issues that affect our company, however, we don?t believe that we should involve you in those issues. Those are our issues and rest assured, we will exercise all options to reach resolve. In my opinion, there are a variety of other methods that could be used to reach your goal. That said, I respect your chosen option, however, please don?t assume because programs don?t post about it, that they don?t fight against it.

Simply put, and in my humble opinion, much of this is marketing. Many programs get on the crusade against torrent sites as a method of marketing. I am not saying Shane?s World is doing that, I am also not saying that if programs are doing it, that there is anything wrong with it. I am saying it isn?t our style. We handle our issues privately and our marketing is and has been extremely effective. I also have zero interest in condemning other programs. Does that mean we support torrent sites? Absolutely not, and anyone thinking that is the case is being extremely narrow-minded in not realizing that causes can be fought effectively in private. I do not see the need for me to publicly condemn a program, in fact, many of the programs on the list I would consider friends. Our stance on torrent sites doesn?t involve crusades against other programs. Nasty Dollars has a standing invite to any dinner we hold, we don?t have to agree on the torrent issue. That is how we conduct our business. Its how we choose to fight causes.

My point in this is that threads such as this can lead to irresponsible slippery slopes. I hate to overstate my respect for your passion, but I don?t want to offend you. Wegcash being listed on a bad business list is not only inaccurate, but also similarly insulting. As much as we have given back to this industry, I would have expected more. If anyone knows absolutely anything about this industry and our program, than you would know that we don?t need torrent signups. We don?t even notice them if we are getting them. We see all referrers that come through our system, if they exist, they don?t amount to much. I hope that all the companies going public with their anti-torrent stances are dedicating that same energy privately, if however you are not, we respect you all the same.

In conclusion, I hope you don?t take my post as aggressive, rather as a passionate response to your passionate diatribe. Furthermore, please email [email protected] with any infringements or concerns and we will, as always, take care of it immediately.

Thanks and Best Regards,

Cory.

Those threads prove a couple things, but none of them dealing with Mojo and bad business.

Cory, so you're essentially saying that torrent traffic is minimal enough that you don't notice it in your referrers or signups. Any idea why other programs would continue to bother with them? If it is as tiny as you claim, the risk seems greater than the reward.

See sig :glugglug

is it wrong to use the very thing most of adult webmasters are fighting to fight a bigger evil?

I'm having riddick flashbacks....

I didn't say that. I said we don't take the traffic, however if we are listed somewhere, we don't see it.

Furthermore, I stated that if it is brought to our attention, we will deal with it accordingly as we don't accept it.

Brujah, also, I have no idea if other programs make a killing off the signups.

If we are listed somewhere, I can tell you that either A) We don't get a lot of traffic or B) Weg doesn't convert well on them.

oh yea, of course not.


allowing people to link to mp3's.
allowing people to upload stolen content.

knowing about it and hiding behind dmca loopholes so they dont have to do anything about it.


I brought all of this up to them, and as you can see if you actually read the threads, they say..

"sorry, cant do nothing about it. Unless your the content owner, and send me a dmca notice, I am going to keep excepting his monthly hosting payment. Now, how can I fuck with you for bringing this up?"

Noted.

Of course.

I have seen no WEG issues. If i had I would respectfully emailed you. Some other programs are repeatedly put on notice and board actions are necessary.

I respect you for that.

I don't see where I asked WEG for anything, but ok. I didn't solicit programs to post about it. Thanks for the respect. Returned in like. :thumbsup

Awesome. I have no problems contacting you with complaints. Since those signups are not welcomed I take relief in the fact that at least one other program wont have a problem terming people immediately. Thanks. :thumbsup

Sweet. Like I said. I've never seen any yet. If I find them I will be happy to let you know. As a content producer you would like to attend the round table discussion. It is my iterpretation from your response above though that you guys mostly like to stick to yourself and go it alone. If you change your minds, the industry would love to have you part of the solution. :thumbsup:)
[/QUOTE]



Thank you. Your input has been computed.

:thumbsup

As a host, I can state that I am not going to judge how I deal with a client based on the allegations of some anon poster on a message board.

it should be the theme song for the meeting in LA:

A change is gonna come

Sam Cooke


I was born by the river in a little tent
And just like that river I've been running ever since
It's been a long time coming
But I know a change is gonna come, oh yes it will

It's been too hard living, but I'm afraid to die
Cos I don't know what's out there beyond the sky
It's been a long, a long time coming
But I know a change is gonna come, oh yes it will

BRIDGE:

And then I go to see my brother
And I ask him to help me please
And he just winds up knockin' me
Back down on my knees

There were times when I thought I couldn't last for long
But now I think I'm able to carry on
It's been a long, been a long time coming
But I know a change is gonna come, oh yes it will

what does being anonymous have to do with it?

I see, so that makes him exempt for being told to either stop, or getting yanked.... just because I prefer to remain anonymous.

Lets just forget about the fact that he IS uploading stolen content and linking to mp3's.

So all in all, "terms of service agreements" only apply to all NON-BROS.

oh crap why my english is so bad ... i was saying the same before 5-6 months ... nobody cares, anyway i understand, nobody is listening to newbies ;)

btw add to your bad list segpay for processing megarotic payments :2 cents: ;)

Let me restate that since you seem to be a little slow.

As a host, I can state that I am not going to judge how I deal with a client based on the allegations of some anonymous person that is basing their accusations on supposition rather than facts.

That's what I meant too, in case it seemed I meant something else. From the standpoint of trying to understand the situation clearer from a monetary perspective, and whether it pays or not to accept and support traffic from similar sites.

Without any real data to look at, unlike you probably have, I am wondering if other programs have the same kind of experience. Then assuming theirs is like yours, the risk or even just the hassles seem to far outweight the minimal benefits.

Make yourrself known to me, please. My lawyer is anxiously awaiting your information so that we can follow up on the libel and mudslinging in previous threads.

You do an excellent job avoiding all direct questions and requests. You have been especially proficient at getting dirty immediately, avoiding any common or professional courtesies and all attempts at rational conversation.

There are hundreds of people here who have met and respect me, my companies, and all of my various efforts in this industry - and for very good reasons. They and I are all wondering just what exactly is so wrong with you that you are incapable of either sending a properly formatted email or phoning me for a discussion? You conduct yourself unprofessionally and with an uneducated presumption of guilt on all issues.

I wonder if it's coincidence that for all the many years that site has been online you come out of the woodwork on GFY ranting about MojoHost the month that they go live on my network?

I'm calling you out for not qualifying yourself or your motives. They're not pure, that is obvious. You have singled out one site of over tens of thousands that we host and you still continue to sling mud. If it's a moral or ethical debate that you want with this guy then name yourself and your business and let's have it live on GFY or at a future venue.

It is absolutely amazing to me that anyone, truly anyone in our industry whatsoever, would choose to single out me of all people and of all hosting companies. The choice seems either very naive, stupid or alteriorly motivated.

And what is this "BRO" thing? You have absolutely no idea who I am. If you had ever met me at a tradeshow, I can assure you that I don't fit what seems to be the commonly accepted definition for that these days. I do business at shows, I surround myself with the highest quality people from all walks of webmaster life. I take offense to your suggestion that I'm part of any 'good old boy network'.

But thank you, really, I guess, because the more you talk the less people are listening to you.

Brad

Fleshlight is bad business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Josh is a lying scumbag

Actually, if our industry goes forward and goes public and says "for all the bitching about commercial porn, there is way more porn and CP available on torrents, P2P networks, open forums, and various youtube clones that operate without regulation" we might be able to get the public's perception moved. Putting the information out there, talking it up, getting media coverage, etc... is the way that you move something from the back burner to the front burner.

Commercial porn sites have no interest in running CP. Commercial porn sites have no interest in attracting minors (they can't buy, so why bother) and Commercial porn sites are in the business of selling porn.

Yes, commercial porn site use galleries and video clips as sales material, but rarely are these clips over 20 seconds long, and rarely are there more than about 20 pictures on a page. We don't give unlimited and wide scope access to porn for free. In fact (making ASACP feel good) there is even industry moves to create proper and simple tagging that would make it easy for parents to block out commercial porn sites.

Having the FBI go out and do a 2257 records search on a tube site or a torrent tracker site in the US might really shake things up.

Bad business is as much about not caring about the repercussions of your desperate grabs for cash and traffic.

jesus i enjoy your posts. :thumbsup

double post

what are you doing about him linking to mp3's?
what are you doing about him uploading stolen content?

I haven't seen any such link to MP3's, if you have links go ahead and send it along. I am certain we host no mp3s and I have to be honest, I don't know what you would possibly expect us to do if he was linking to some other site that someone else owns hosted somewhere else. I don't believe that we would have any exposure in that area. I also don't think that I would have the right to be judge and jury in such a scenario.


Since you won't call, email or meet me at a tradeshow but insist on continuing to sling mud I would challenge you to watch the following video:

mms://gus.drmnetworks.net/PhxForum07/stateoftheindustry-final.wmv

I weighed in on all sorts of issues as a panelist on the State of the Industry talk in Phoenix (thank you to CCBill for the invitation!!!). I didn't have much to say the first 20 minutes of the hour and then after that I think it was difficult to keep me contained when the discussion of ethics in our industry came up.

Brad

swampthing: It is obvious you simply do not understand a few things regarding what a host can and can not do or how a DMCA works. No problem, several don't.

First Brad has no control over links to or links from, he is a host. We do not censor, we are not the content cops of the web. We can and do set rules regarding the services we provide BUT and please dont take offense to this, you, from what you have said, you are not the content owner which you claimed was stolen. There are no "Loop Holes" in DMCA it was written to do exactly what it does. A legal DMCA puts certain legal liabilities on the person making the claim that if it is a false claim they are subject to legal actions. It is setup so the owner or legal agent of the content files it. Web hosts can are not required to "judge" anyone in this we simply have to comply to all legally submitted DMCA complaints. It was done this way intentionally to protect content owners, web site owners and the host. If we responded every time so someone said so sites would be down all the time just because you or someone else may have the red ass towards someone else. We live in a civilized world so that is not acceptable to anyone. Look at the big picture.

If web hosts had the power you seem to feel we have... well the world as we know it would be a lot different for sure. He like myself is a businessman, our time is not free. We have obligations to our customers regardless of your thoughts. We are not investigators, judges or law enforcement, we are just web hosts/ISP. We have to operate within the laws in place.

This all said I do understand what you are trying to accomplish but you are simply blaming the wrong party and attempting to get action from the wrong party. If you are aware of content that is stolen then you contact the legal owner, they file a proper DMCA and Brad or any other ISP or host has no choice but to remove the content. That simple. DMCA protects us from legal actions when we take those steps because they are required by law. In regards to links from a customers sites to claimed illegal content... well to my knowledge there is nothing about that in the laws, DMCA done right would mean the link would die and no longer be valid. So again, approach the right people and you get the result you are looking for.

I support everything that A1R3K is trying to accomplish with this and he already knows that.

I want to add something for those who have already or are planning to submit a DMCA complaint, CC the bandwidth providers. They don't like dealing with those type issues no more than a host does. If there is a host that you feel is not responding in a timely manner continue to send the request, contact the bandwidth provider directly if needed. Regardless if they see constant DMCAs hitting their inbox they will grow tired of it and apply pressures on the host and shut off the bandwidth if needed... well most would, same as it can happen with spam.

In the end what it seems you would like to see is web hosts working in a proactive manner rather than a reactive manner to this stuff and I seriously doubt anyone here would want that since the cost of hosting would go nuts with us having to hire staff to check millions of links that we are hosting on a regular basis to find proof of illegal actions. I am not even going to guess the man hours it would take, I suppose we could setup stuff so no page would go live until we checked everything on it... I am sure everyone here would love that, waiting weeks for legally bound web hosts to approve their new pages before they go up while true illegal operations would still be making changes as always... it just would not work and would be bad for all parties. All this has been debated before and the result was DMCA.

Hmmm wonder what kind of badges we would get... nah we dont need no stinking badges.

Mojo is a competitor plain and simple and Brad knows if he was doing something wrong I would say so, but in this case he is bound both by law and protecting his other customers who have nothing to do with what you are complaining about. If he reacted just on your words he could put other customers in jeopardy since the result could be a lot of legal battles at great expense which would have to be absorbed by the company. Look at the big picture.

Thats all nice and lovely excuses for not having to do anything about it.
Brad doesnt even want to look at the links to the mp3's on the top of gregs page. Brad says he doesnt know of any links to mp3's, Yet, there they are, on the top of the guys page, everyday.

Brad doesnt want to look at the countless pages of stolen pictures on the gregs site, yet there they are, everyday.

and yet, Im the one getting legal threats for pointing this out.

way to go, you industry leaders :thumbsup

Kicks, one of the things about DMCA is that if the party owning the site isn't responsive and doesn't take action, the host once notified really does need to get involved. This is doubly true if the whois information on the domain in question isn't valid or the domain owner cannot be contacted (say a registered letter is returned unopened or the owner cannot be served). At that point the host does have responsibilities to block access to the offending material until such time that the site owner can clarify their rights to the material.

Filing of a false DMCA report is actionable, so people can't just randomly dump stuff on hosts without backing.

A host that fails to take action in a reasonable time after notification leaves themselves open to further legal action, contributory copyright infringement, etc. Hosts may think they are safe but they have responsbilities as well.